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I go back and forth on who will be fired


Maxman
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11 minutes ago, HawkeyeJet said:

I still don't even really get the significance of that.  That he hasn't signed extensions for his first draft class?

 Or the amount of washouts from his drafts?

Im not debating, I legitimately feel like I'm missing the significance.

I think it's a combination of two factors:

1) It suggests Mac has done a terrible job of drafting since many of his draft picks who should be under contract or extended have been cut because they stink.

2) It indicates that the massive cap space we have is misleading since we're gonna have a lot of holes to fill.

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9 minutes ago, Creepy Lurker said:

I’d say it’s the amount of washouts and the fact that our roster is short because we cut so much young talent early. Misses are ok by GMs but the amount of misses is mind boggling and our lack of young players on rookie deals is staggering. 

Which is why all that cap space we have in the coming off-season is really a mirage. On top of that we don't have a 2nd rd pick. Now we really need to stock our roster through the draft after all his draft misses. Otherwise we will stay in no playoffs purgatory all of Darnold's rookie contract. There has to be a sucker out there that will take Leonard Williams for a first. 

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1 minute ago, playtowinthegame said:

Which is why all that cap space we have in the coming off-season is really a mirage. On top of that we don't have a 2nd rd pick. Now we really need to stock our roster through the draft after all his draft misses. Otherwise we will stay in no playoffs purgatory all of Darnold's rookie contract. There has to be a sucker out there that will take Leonard Williams for a first. 

It is a mirage but I hope the injuries to Q, Robbie and Kearse declining will bring down their prices. 

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8 minutes ago, UntouchableCrew said:

I think it's a combination of two factors:

1) It suggests Mac has done a terrible job of drafting since many of his draft picks who should be under contract or extended have been cut because they stink.

2) It indicates that the massive cap space we have is misleading since we're gonna have a lot of holes to fill.

Yeah, maybe.  I don't think there is any debate his 1st draft was awful, and he's had some misses in each draft.  I also think that people over estimate how much picks in round 3-7 stick with their teams for over 3 years.

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3 hours ago, Maxman said:

When I watch the offensive line I think wow Macc has really neglected the position. If Sam gets hurt because Spencer Long gets beat, that seems to be bad for the GM. My point is there are cases for both sides. I think the most likely outcome is that Bowles gets fired, Macc is safe. But depending on what happens the rest of the way that could change. The schedule goes a long way towards that.

you can also look at it this way.  if mac is so bad at getting players, is bowles some kind of miracle worker by getting them to 7-9 or 8-8?  i think ,any people saw geno go 8-8 his first season and thought he may be a keeper at qb.  but then is bowles such a bad coach that the players that mac gets just don't make any progress because the coach is bad?  there's a lot of chicken and egg argument here.

right now, barring something go really right for this team, i think bowles should be launched.  his last statement about the players playing hard but getting all those penalties just means he's also not doing the job making sure the players stop making stupid mistakes.  and then there's what pepper johnson said about him being so rigid and not listening to his assistants.  it's hard to know if pepper is just talking smack but if there's a shred of truth....and after 4 seasons we should think the defense would be top 10 given the resources.

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1 minute ago, Creepy Lurker said:

It is a mirage but I hope the injuries to Q, Robbie and Kearse declining will bring down their prices. 

Correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't Q a UFA in 2019? If so, I can see him playing for less on a prove it deal for a contender, however, for the Jets to sign him they will have to pay more. It's the premium price the Jets will have to pay because Mac screwed up. 

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Just now, playtowinthegame said:

Correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't Q a UFA in 2019? If so, I can see him playing for less on a prove it deal for a contender, however, for the Jets to sign him they will have to pay more. It's the premium price the Jets will have to pay because Mac screwed up. 

Yes. He is an UFA. We will have to pay a premium if it’s a multi year deal but it won’t be $15mil/yr like it was looking when he was playing great earlier in the year. I think we can get him for 3 years $8-10mil per. 

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I will never understand the Safety/safety picks & then follow with WR/WR.

They could have had Juju, Kamara, Sidney Jones, Pocic, Eiflein, or Cooper Kupp instead of Maye.

They could have had Chris Godwin, Kareem Hunt, James Conner or Golladay instead of Stewart?

Kittle instead of Hansen or Leggett? 

Obviously this is all hindsight but what are these scouts doing? There were some DAMN GOOD offensive players available in positions of dire need.  To basically miss on Stewart, Hansen & jury still out on Leggett (drafted Herndon this year), when all of these guys above were available & all starters on some damn good teams is an indictment of the process in place at Florham Park. 

 

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3 hours ago, Maxman said:

Honestly after I did the math last night on how a young core is locked up on defense, I felt confident that Macc would be back.

The guy just got the franchise QB we have been looking for. I don't see how he gets fired.

But like my first post said, I go back and forth on all of this lol.

I agree... As much as I would love to see both of them go (along with the old uniforms signifying a complete change), I think Mac stays.  He pulled off a move that was nothing short of miraculous (Draft Day like) and somehow Darnold fell to us.  When it comes to drafting, anyone can be a bust, and I feel he will get a pass there.  Bowles, Bates, and Rodgers need to go.  Mac got his QB, now let him get his coach, OC, and DC and give him a year.  There is plenty of cap room for him to do some things in free agency to solidify the team around Darnold.  If after one year of a draft and free agency and he still cant get it done, can his a**.  

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31 minutes ago, TeddEY said:

This is undoubtedly true.

But the question should be why? Believe me, they don't watch every second of Jet games like we do. There is a difference to being respected than being respected as a good coach. Bowles has proved NOTHING as a head coach in going on 5 years.

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13 minutes ago, HawkeyeJet said:

Yeah, maybe.  I don't think there is any debate his 1st draft was awful, and he's had some misses in each draft.  I also think that people over estimate how much picks in round 3-7 stick with their teams for over 3 years.

I think the misses wouldn't be noticed as much if we drafted more impact players. Teams do routinely "miss" on guys in rounds 2-5 but they also nab legit starters and sometimes stars in those rounds.

I'd argue Brandon Shell is the only Mac draft pick to legitimately outplay his draft position.

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7 minutes ago, Jetster said:

But the question should be why? Believe me, they don't watch every second of Jet games like we do. There is a difference to being respected than being respected as a good coach. Bowles has proved NOTHING as a head coach in going on 5 years.

They also don't have the expectation that the Jets will win every game like we do?

In order to believe the arguments made on JetNation, you have to assume that Todd Bowles, or frankly, substitute any coach that's come under fire here, has almost no functional understanding of the game of football.

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1 hour ago, TeddEY said:

Ardarius Stewart is currently unemployed.  If it were about coaching, some other team would salvage that after 1 year.

Chad Hansen is also unemployed.  If it were about coaching, some other team would salvage that after 1 year.

Devin Smith is currently unemployed.  Bryce Petty is currently unemployed.  Lorenzo Maudlin is currently unemployed.  Jarvis Harrison plays for the Sasketchewan Roughriders.  Christian Hackenberg is currently on his 3rd practice squad.  Juston Burris was released, signed by no-one, and is now on the Jets practice squad.  Jordan Leggett is still a Jet, but has already been replaced.  Dylan Donahue is currently unemployed.

In other words, there is not a single Macc draft pick that is not currently on this roster, who is playing football for another NFL team.  Hard to say coaching squandered talent when no other teams are even knocking at the door of that talent.

Well, that was convincing.

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5 minutes ago, TeddEY said:

They also don't have the expectation that the Jets will win every game like we do?

In order to believe the arguments made on JetNation, you have to assume that Todd Bowles, or frankly, substitute any coach that's come under fire here, has almost no functional understanding of the game of football.

Take the hyperbole out of the arguments most of us make, and I think you could make a very reasonable argument that Bowles is the worst HC in the NFL at this point in time, now that Jackson is gone.

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2 minutes ago, HawkeyeJet said:

Take the hyperbole out of the arguments most of us make, and I think you could make a very reasonable argument that Bowles is the worst HC in the NFL at this point in time, now that Jackson is gone.

Based on anything beyond a bunch of Jets fans thinking this team is better than it is, and coaching is what's holding it back?

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8 minutes ago, TeddEY said:

They also don't have the expectation that the Jets will win every game like we do?

In order to believe the arguments made on JetNation, you have to assume that Todd Bowles, or frankly, substitute any coach that's come under fire here, has almost no functional understanding of the game of football.

I would at least like to see Todd Bowles actually COACH on the sidelines! This freaking guy stands there, arms folded, total mute, like he's so good he's covered everything that needed to be covered coming into these games! 

Then, they have 5 or 6 pre-snap penalties.....nothing....just a grimace. Then the refs like they do EVERY GAME against this team either call some terrible penalty, pick up flags after they are thrown & there is Todd Bowles...nothing...just a grimace. This guy needs to fight for his team! I've never ever seen a guy take it up the azz like Bowles does & just stand there with a CAN I HAVE ANOTHER dumbfounded look on his face. It's infuriating to me as a fan & I'm done with him. Done.

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6 minutes ago, TeddEY said:

Based on anything beyond a bunch of Jets fans thinking this team is better than it is, and coaching is what's holding it back?

I have seen plenty of criticism from Bowles outside of this message board.

I get it, you think Macc is awful.  That's fine, but even remotely defending Bowles is laughable.  

I know you can point out Macc's misses.  Can you point out Bowles strengths?

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Just now, Jetster said:

I would at least like to see Todd Bowles actually COACH on the sidelines! This freaking guy stands there, arms folded, total mute, like he's so good he's covered everything that needed to be covered coming into these games! 

 Then, they have 5 or 6 pre-snap penalties.....nothing....just a grimace. Then the refs like they do EVERY GAME against this team either call some terrible penalty, pick up flags after they are thrown & there is Todd Bowles...nothing...just a grimace. This guy needs to fight for his team! I've never ever seen a guy take it up the azz like Bowles does & just stand there with a CAN I HAVE ANOTHER dumbfounded look on his face. It's infuriating to me as a fan & I'm done with him. Done.

And this is exactly the problem, because you, guy watching on TV, don't know what Todd Bowles is doing, because he's not jumping off the couch like you are, it's a sign that he's doing something wrong.

He's not emotionally expressive.  That's probably a cultural/upbringing thing.  Yelling at me never accomplished anything either.  Doesn't mean he's ignoring it.  The team is bad.  Bad players will make mistakes.  Acting like Rex Ryan didn't change that when Rex Ryan was the coach of a bad team.

What you're problem is is literally the same issue with fans needing to "see what we had" in Hackenberg.  We had nothing in Christian Hackenberg.  The coaches knew it.  A lot of the fanbase knew it to.  But because some didn't get to see him flounder on the field, didn't mean it's not true.  Just as because you don't see Bowles throwing a hissy fit, doesn't mean he doesn't care and isn't working on things.

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3 minutes ago, HawkeyeJet said:

I have seen plenty of criticism from Bowles outside of this message board.

I get it, you think Macc is awful.  That's fine, but even remotely defending Bowles is laughable.  

I know you can point out Macc's misses.  Can you point out Bowles strengths?

He's gotten 5 wins out of rosters that are probably good for 3?

I'm not advocating for Bowles as a coach at all.  The next guy will come in and it'll be more of the same.  I'm simply saying the criticism of him is largely based on post-hoc analysis and sometimes nonsense, like the above, wherein the real problem is that he doesn't get angry enough on television.  Remember when Rex was a great HC in 2009 and 2010 and then a not good HC after that, when we stopped having good players and Sanchez never got any better?

We're a bad football team because we have very few good football players.  My point is, it doesn't really matter who the coach is, as long as we continue to have very few good football players, we'll be a bad football team.  But sure, lets all fantasize about firing the next coach when it will all be better, which is what happened when we fired Al Groh, when we fired Herm Edwards, when we fired Eric Mangini, when we fired Rex Ryan.  Again, fire Bowles, fine by me, because you have to get rid of both of them together, but unless you actually bring in good football players, we'll soon be talking about how the next coach is also a moron.  Unless we get the overhyped guy who's never beaten Ohio State, of course.

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8 minutes ago, TeddEY said:

And this is exactly the problem, because you, guy watching on TV, don't know what Todd Bowles is doing, because he's not jumping off the couch like you are, it's a sign that he's doing something wrong.

He's not emotionally expressive.  That's probably a cultural/upbringing thing.  Yelling at me never accomplished anything either.  Doesn't mean he's ignoring it.  The team is bad.  Bad players will make mistakes.  Acting like Rex Ryan didn't change that when Rex Ryan was the coach of a bad team.

What you're problem is is literally the same issue with fans needing to "see what we had" in Hackenberg.  We had nothing in Christian Hackenberg.  The coaches knew it.  A lot of the fanbase knew it to.  But because some didn't get to see him flounder on the field, didn't mean it's not true.  Just as because you don't see Bowles throwing a hissy fit, doesn't mean he doesn't care and isn't working on things.

Wow, how much slack are you going to put out there for Todd Bowles? The guy has the 24th ranked defense in the NFL & every week they have a huge lapse that leads to an easy TD. 

I keep waiting to see our offense get an easy TD. It's painful watching the Jets, literally painful, and this team is offensively deficient BECAUSE of Todd Bowles & his stupid 1950 philosophy. He'll be fired & he won't succeed here that I will guarantee you. A tiger doesn't change his stripes, we have going on 5 years of this guys ineptitude. 

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First of all, I don't think anyone is getting fired if we're 7-9, maybe not even if we're 6-10.

That said, I think Macc has been pretty objectively terrible at drafting.  Almost all of his "good" picks were guys that everyone thought we should take - Darnold, Leo, Adams.  He should get some credit for that, but not a lot.  Maye and Shell are at least good players, though Maye was not good value.  And there were *many* players that were terrible - like not even stick around in the NFL terrible.  Misses are OK, but 2nd and 3rd round picks even when bad should at least be depth.  Not out of football.

My only hope is that this last draft looks pretty good.  And so maybe things have actually changed (specifically Heimerdinger).  In particular, I hope he stops grabbing "value" on defense, when he really needs to overvalue O, like every other team in the league.

 

 

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3 minutes ago, Jetster said:

 Wow, how much slack are you going to put out there for Todd Bowles? The guy has the 24th ranked defense in the NFL & every week they have a huge lapse that leads to an easy TD. 

I keep waiting to see our offense get an easy TD. It's painful watching the Jets, literally painful, and this team is offensively deficient BECAUSE of Todd Bowles & his stupid 1950 philosophy. He'll be fired & he won't succeed here that I will guarantee you. A tiger doesn't change his stripes, we have going on 5 years of this guys ineptitude. 

If "slack" is, not killing the guy for his facial expressions, then, lots of it.

Otherwise, I too think the Jets should score lots of easy TDs with a rookie QB, a poor offensive line, and essentially no talent at the skill position.

Let me ask you something, what do you think is more responsible for the offenses lack of success, the fact that Sam Darnold (2018) is the first 1st round pick we've used on offense since Mark Sanchez (2009), or the fact that you've convinced yourself the coach only wants to run the football?

Question 2, how many Jets offensive players would start on 50% of the league's teams?  I'm pretty sure if you're being honest with yourself, the answer to that question is 0.

Ask yourself the same question re; the defense.  How many players on the Jets defense are actual NFL starters?  That should answer your question about why the defense is 24th.  If you're being generous, maybe 4?

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6 hours ago, RaoulDuke said:
Honest question: when a draft pick doesn't pan out, where's the line between bad scouting and bad coaching? 
 
Maybe a guy like Adarius Stewart could have become servcieable at the least.
 
Who's the last late round pick that was groomed by this coaching staff into a legit starter?

Q

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4 hours ago, bitonti said:

PREACH 

Mac is far worse a drafter than Bowles is as a head coach. Their fates are tied together but every win Bowles squeezes out is overperforming with a crap roster

Last year Vegas predicted 3.5 wins for this team, they got 5. This year Vegas predicted 6 wins for this team they realistically (depending on this week) could get 7 or 8. The roster isn't deep but somehow they are in these games. 

I have a feeling Todd Bowles is more well respected among NFL circles than he is among these internet forums. Out of the four coaches Woody has hired, he's making the most with the least.

huh?

Rex was 8-8 with a rookie Geno Smith throwing the ball to Clyde Gates, David Nelson, and Greg Salas.

Bowles is awful and should be punted out of Florham Park post haste.

 

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2 hours ago, Pac said:

huh?

Rex was 8-8 with a rookie Geno Smith throwing the ball to Clyde Gates, David Nelson, and Greg Salas.

Bowles is awful and should be punted out of Florham Park post haste.

 

Preach brother! Geno Smith 8-8! Bowles gets way too many excuses & his fingerprints are ALL OVER this defensive roster. From Lee (his Buchanan), to Adams + Maye double safety draft, to signing Trumaine Johnson this offseason, no team has ignored upgrading the offense more than the New York Jets. 

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9 hours ago, TeddEY said:

Ardarius Stewart is currently unemployed.  If it were about coaching, some other team would salvage that after 1 year.

Chad Hansen is also unemployed.  If it were about coaching, some other team would salvage that after 1 year.

Devin Smith is currently unemployed.  Bryce Petty is currently unemployed.  Lorenzo Maudlin is currently unemployed.  Jarvis Harrison plays for the Sasketchewan Roughriders.  Christian Hackenberg is currently on his 3rd practice squad.  Juston Burris was released, signed by no-one, and is now on the Jets practice squad.  Jordan Leggett is still a Jet, but has already been replaced.  Dylan Donahue is currently unemployed.

In other words, there is not a single Macc draft pick that is not currently on this roster, who is playing football for another NFL team.  Hard to say coaching squandered talent when no other teams are even knocking at the door of that talent.

That's a pretty damning argument against Mac, I think you talked me into wanting him fired, lol. 

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11 hours ago, Maxman said:

I seriously go back and forth, round and round. 

Bowles is getting fired. He deserves it. Macc is safe, he drafted Darnold. They have a young nucleus on defense with Adams, Maye, Williams, Lee, T. Johnson, Sheperd and Avery Williamson. 

But wait, the offense is so bad, Macc is going to get fired for that.

Both Macc and Bowles are getting fired.

Then I look at the remaining schedule:

image.png

 

The remaining opponents have a record of 31 and 30.

You have the Patriots twice. Let's say the Jets lose both games, that gives them 7 losses on the year. But the opponents other than that are 19 and 26.

The Dolphins and Bills have QB issues right now. If the Jets win both of those games a .500 record would come down to winning 2 of 3 against the Titans, Packers and Texans. Two of which are at home.

It is a big if, but does anyone get fired if they get to 8 and 8 on the year?

I know wins and losses aren't the most important thing. But I don't see them firing anyone at 8 and 8. Granted the argument can be easily made that they won't sniff 8 wins, but I think they have a shot at it.

So I go round and round on who will be fired. It is frustrating, next year though they have to load up this offense and give Darnold some weapons.

 

Ahhhh you're such a softee.

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Maccagnan's picks on offence

2015, round 2: Devin Smith, WR

2015, round 4: Bryce Petty, QB

2015, round 5: Jarvis Harrison, G

2016, round 2: Christian Hackenberg, QB

2016, round 5: Brandon Shell, OT

2016, round 7: Charone Peake, WR

2016 (undrafted): Robby Anderson, WR

2017, round 3: ArDarius Stewart, WR

2017, round 4: Chad Hansen, WR

2017, round 5: Jordan Leggett, TE

2017, round 6: Elijah McGuire, RB

2018, round 1: Sam Darnold, QB

2018, round 4: Chris Herndon, TE

2018, round 6: Trenton Cannon, RB

Should we really trust Maccagnan to put quality players around Sam Darnold or are we prepared to risk the same fate that occurred to Andrew Luck in Indianapolis happening to Darnold?

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8 hours ago, Jetster said:

I will never understand the Safety/safety picks & then follow with WR/WR.

They could have had Juju, Kamara, Sidney Jones, Pocic, Eiflein, or Cooper Kupp instead of Maye.

They could have had Chris Godwin, Kareem Hunt, James Conner or Golladay instead of Stewart?

Kittle instead of Hansen or Leggett? 

Obviously this is all hindsight but what are these scouts doing? There were some DAMN GOOD offensive players available in positions of dire need.  To basically miss on Stewart, Hansen & jury still out on Leggett (drafted Herndon this year), when all of these guys above were available & all starters on some damn good teams is an indictment of the process in place at Florham Park. 

 

Not to mention the three #1 questionable picks of Adams, Lee and Leo who have severely underperformed.  You couldn't package all three of them in a trade for Gurley who is having an MVP season. And Gurley was sitting there to be plucked by Macc who passed on him for Leo. ](*,)

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