Where do you stand on Maccagnan?

[jetstream23]

How did the Jets go from 1-15 in 1996 with bad personnel to 9-7 in 1997 with maybe slightly better personnel?  Same QB, Neil O'Donnell, largely the same players.  Keyshawn Johnson was a rookie.  There was no Curtis Martin yet, etc.

I think the answer is coaching.

[ZachEY]

1 hour ago, genot said:

Mac would have had to hit big on every draft pick and be able to sign quality free agents at positions of need, for us to be a contending squad. Too much too ask. When you look at that 2014 roster that included all of Idziks draft picks who should in some way be contributing now. How many are. Enunwa. Thats it.

This take ignores that, while Mac may have had to hit big on every draft pick for us to contend, a point I disagree with, not only did he not do that, but he missed more than literally everyone else.

No one was expecting perfection.  However, we weren't expecting, nor should we tolerate, the NFL's worst performance in identifying non-blue chip talent.

[chirorob]

6 minutes ago, TeddEY said:

If you want to say the team he took over was terrible, that's fine.  And, it's hard to find disagreement with that.

However, after 4 years, how many points do you think the 2018 Jets would be favored over that team by?  Would they even be favored?  What exactly would our offensive line do with Wilkerson, Richardson, and Harrison at that point in their careers?

He took over a team with a lot of cap room, and very little talent.

After 4 years he has a team with a lot of cap room, very little talent, and no 2nd round draft pick.   His fault or not, every mid to high end contract he gave out has failed him. 

[ZachEY]

1 hour ago, BigRy56 said:

BUT I don't think he's done a bad job

What would a "bad job" look like?

[Creepy Lurker]

7 minutes ago, TeddEY said:

If you want to say the team he took over was terrible, that's fine.  And, it's hard to find disagreement with that.

However, after 4 years, how many points do you think the 2018 Jets would be favored over that team by?  Would they even be favored?  What exactly would our offensive line do with Wilkerson, Richardson, and Harrison at that point in their careers?

I think it’s be pretty close and that we are more or less back to square 1. It’d be the ugliest game ever if they played each other. I think I’d give 2014 the edge because our o-line is so useless and wouldn’t be able to handle the Sons.

My point was mainly that even if you think 2014 was a terrible roster, what is the excuse that we are basically back to square 1? There’s no excuse which I’m sure you can agree. 

[genot]

1 minute ago, Paradis said:

 

Scouting reports that we read on Internet don’t necessarily reflect on house boards. Regardless, that may be an excuse for why YOU picked him if the GM job was an lottery based fan position... but that’s not how it is, is it. This guy is being paid millions of dollars to AVIOD Stewart. Literally that’s supposed to be his credentials. In a round surrounded by talent in which 4/5 of the fans were calling player x or y, Macc went with player z...

That’s called being sh*tty at your job. You can be welder and weld the wrong pipe and say, well cmon! It was in the pile. No. That’s why I paid you, a fcking journeyman welder, to do this job.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Good point's for sure. Then agian, there's the Ryan leafs and tony manderich's. Can't miss hall of famers. It's still a crapshoot, no matter how much scouting you do on a player. Hell, i thought Blair Thomas was our franchise back for the next eight years. I could cry.Lol

[Creepy Lurker]

7 minutes ago, Thai Jet said:

I think it's mostly coaching. That's why Todd HAS to go.

 

5 minutes ago, jetstream23 said:

How did the Jets go from 1-15 in 1996 with bad personnel to 9-7 in 1997 with maybe slightly better personnel?  Same QB, Neil O'Donnell, largely the same players.  Keyshawn Johnson was a rookie.  There was no Curtis Martin yet, etc.

I think the answer is coaching.

Coaching is probably the most important aspect of a good team. Coaching is a huge issue with the Jets and I agree with the both of you. Flat out misses in the draft and incorrect drafting philosophy or understanding of value/utility is 100% on the GM though. 

[ZachEY]

13 minutes ago, JiF said:

The bigger point is in rounds 2-4, where good GM's truly build their teams, Mac is 3 for 10 on players still on the team/league. 

And out of 15 teams I looked at, not one did worse in this regard over the time Mac was drafting.

[Paradis]

Good point's for sure. Then agian, there's the Ryan leafs and tony manderich's. Can't miss hall of famers. It's still a crapshoot, no matter how much scouting you do on a player. Hell, i thought Blair Thomas was our franchise back for the next eight years. I could cry.Lol

No ones perfect. I thought Lynch was the truth. Or at least I talked myself into overlooking concerning parts of his game (which is probably a common part of the flaw that follows many bad picks)... but when the number of incidents add up, or a couple bad ones bite you in the ass, then it’s not just bad luck any more.

Had Macc picked Lynch, that would have been one of those picks you wish you had back... but it’s one where you can say “I get how he talked himself into that”.. there’s to many “wtf’s” on his resume. Too many “my god, you passed on so and so for that?!?!”


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[ZachEY]

4 minutes ago, Paradis said:

 

No ones perfect. I thought Lynch was the truth. Or at least I talked myself into overlooking concerning parts of his game (which is probably a common part of the flaw that follows many bad picks)... but when the number of incidents add up, or a couple bad ones bite you in the ass, then it’s not just bad luck any more. 

Had Macc picked Lynch, that would have been one of those picks you wish you had back... but it’s one where you can say “I get how he talked himself into that”.. there’s to many “wtf’s” on his resume. Too many “my god, you passed on so and so for that?!?!”


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

He took a QB in the 2nd round who's never thrown, and will never throw, an NFL pass.  How does that happen?

Again, Kiper's big board does a better job than Macc.

[jack48]

3 hours ago, Beerfish said:

You actually build effective rosters after round one, round ones are easy peasy picks most of the time.

He has utterly failed in this regard.  Worse yet his plan for building is just terrible.

After 4 years as stated we have a few effective starers and just a ton of holes or positions we can upgrade.

The talent level where it counts on this team is dismal after four full years.

I think Bowles is still here because he runs interference for Macc.  If TB was gone the press would feed on Macc for the last 6 games.  The Johnsons want a measure of peace.

[Sperm Edwards]

3 hours ago, TeddEY said:

Mike Maccaggnan has underperformed Mel Kiper's big board and is the worst GM during his tenure at finding talent.

Prove me wrong.

All he needs are another dozen top-6 overall selections and this roster will be awesome.

Find me another GM who could do that, tough guy. 

[Paradis]

How y’all gonna feel when he takes another “low risk” DT at #6 this year.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[genot]

27 minutes ago, #27TheDominator said:

Wait.  Were you and Mike Maccagnan unaware that players age and their play deteriorates as they age?  

He elected to sign Revis, Cromartie and Harris, trade for Marshall and Fitzpatrick, and ride with Pace, D'Brick and Mangold.  Glad that he took that 2014 team and found sustainable success.  The fact these guys were old was not news to anyone. 

The future didn't involve those players. you know that.

[#27TheDominator]

2 minutes ago, genot said:

The future didn't involve those players. you know that.

Isn't his ******* job to worry about the future of the franchise?  

If they weren't involved in the future, then why give up all that dead money for Revis, Fitzpatrick and Harris? Why continue doing it with McCown? 

[genot]

2 minutes ago, #27TheDominator said:

Isn't his ******* job to worry about the future of the franchise?  

If they weren't involved in the future, then why give up all that dead money for Revis, Fitzpatrick and Harris? Why continue doing it with McCown? 

McCown is on a one year deal. It was a good signing considering his temperament grooming another QB. Those other guys weren't around for long, and we found competent replacements for them. Lee and Claibourne.

[BigRy56]

37 minutes ago, TeddEY said:

What would a "bad job" look like?

Not getting a franchise quarterback, to start.

Taking the 'better than you found it' approach here. Maccagnan took a team in QB purgatory with no hope in sight and gave it the best QB prospect that it's had since Namath. It took him longer than we hoped for, but that counts for something...

[Bleedin Green]

For those who opt to blame Bowles' coaching for Maccagnan's failures in the draft, let me ask a very simple question.  Can you name even one player drafted by Maccagnan that has gone on to see any success at all anywhere else in the league?

After all, if the issue was strictly coaching, a change of teams would be the perfect formula for these players to revitalize their careers.  And as @JiF already pointed out, there's a whooooole lot of Macc's picks that are available to the entire league.

[genot]

19 minutes ago, Paradis said:

How y’all gonna feel when he takes another “low risk” DT at #6 this year.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

He's gonna sign Grady Jarrett

[Creepy Lurker]

4 minutes ago, Bleedin Green said:

For those who opt to blame Bowles' coaching for Maccagnan's failures in the draft, let me ask a very simple question.  Can you name even one player drafted by Maccagnan that has gone on to see any success at all anywhere else in the league?

After all, if the issue was strictly coaching, a change of teams would be the perfect formula for these players to revitalize their careers.  And as @JiF already pointed out, there's a whooooole lot of Macc's picks that are available to the entire league.

Good GMs love projects or to have a low risk/high reward situation with other teams’ failures. The fact that pretty much all of our failed picks are out of the league at young ages, is very disturbing.

It’s basically the 2 years of Idzik incompetence spread out over 4 years. Idzik was too much in such a short period that it blew everyone’s minds. Mac is just as bad and that’s almost unbelievable to me. 

[Losmeister]

one foot on neck, other foot on balls

[MaxAF]

I cannot support Mac after nearly 4 years of drafting and with a ton of cap money for FA’s. IMHO he has failed. The Jets are not even watchable anymore. This is year three into the rebuild and they are just putrid. I actually hate Sundays. And I don’t see the schedule getting any easier the rest of the year.

NE

Titans

Bills

Texans

Packers

NE

Possibly a win from the Bills and the second NE game if they have the Playoffs locked up with home field advantage and the rest their starters. They very easily  could lose out the rest of the season.

[joewilly12]

CLEAN HOUSE

[JustInFudge]

8 minutes ago, Bleedin Green said:

For those who opt to blame Bowles' coaching for Maccagnan's failures in the draft, let me ask a very simple question.  Can you name even one player drafted by Maccagnan that has gone on to see any success at all anywhere else in the league?

After all, if the issue was strictly coaching, a change of teams would be the perfect formula for these players to revitalize their careers.  And as @JiF already pointed out, there's a whooooole lot of Macc's picks that are available to the entire league.

Take it a step further, other than Skrine, what FA signing over all these years has made an consistent appearance or impact in the line up?  Beachum?  

[#27TheDominator]

26 minutes ago, genot said:

McCown is on a one year deal. It was a good signing considering his temperament grooming another QB. Those other guys weren't around for long, and we found competent replacements for them. Lee and Claibourne.

Guys "not being around for long" is not a feather in the GM's cap.  Revis earned $40M for the 2 years he was here.  Harris got $15M+ for his 2 years.  Lee didn't replace Harris, he replaced Davis.  Then Davis came back and replaced Harris and then Williamson replaced Davis, but we have to keep these guys around for continuity? Claiborne replaced Revis?  Fine, then who replaced Cromartie?  I know it was supposed to be Burris, but he sucked and now 3 years later, they paid Johnson all that money and I am still waiting.  Claiborne is on his 2nd one year deal.  They will have to pay him to keep him.  

A GM is supposed to have replacements waiting in the wings and be ready a year or two in advance.  This guy gets the excuse that Rome wasn't built in a day, but then we are supposed to feel bad for him that the good players he inherited aged and declined? GTFO.  Who are the promising players they are developing?  Anderson?  Herndon, Shell?  McGuire was a borderline stiff and he has been one of the top picks. 

Jenkins was what he is out of the box.  Same for Adams and Williams.  I guess that Lee and Maye aren't washouts, but it has been four years and we are still hanging on to a bunch of maybes.  How many years did you say, just wait, Hackenberg hasn't had a real shot yet?   

[genot]

5 minutes ago, JiF said:

Take it a step further, other than Skrine, what FA signing over all these years has made an consistent appearance or impact in the line up?  Beachum?  

What offensive player could we have signed, with the stopgap and crap QB's that were on our roster. We tried to sign Suh. He went to a sure fire contender. If we don't get a HC in here with a track record of winning in the NFL, it might be the same this year.

[genot]

2 minutes ago, #27TheDominator said:

Guys "not being around for long" is not a feather in the GM's cap.  Revis earned $40M for the 2 years he was here.  Harris got $15M+ for his 2 years.  Lee didn't replace Harris, he replaced Davis.  Then Davis came back and replaced Harris and then Williamson replaced Davis, but we have to keep these guys around for continuity? Claiborne replaced Revis?  Fine, then who replaced Cromartie?  I know it was supposed to be Burris, but he sucked and now 3 years later, they paid Johnson all that money and I am still waiting.  Claiborne is on his 2nd one year deal.  They will have to pay him to keep him.  

A GM is supposed to have replacements waiting in the wings and be ready a year or two in advance.  This guy gets the excuse that Rome wasn't built in a day, but then we are supposed to feel bad for him that the good players he inherited aged and declined? GTFO.  Who are the promising players they are developing?  Anderson?  Herndon, Shell?  McGuire was a borderline stiff and he has been one of the top picks. 

Jenkins was what he is out of the box.  Same for Adams and Williams.  I guess that Lee and Maye aren't washouts, but it has been four years and we are still hanging on to a bunch of maybes.  How many years did you say, just wait, Hackenberg hasn't had a real shot yet?   

One year. One year. One year. he needs to get a real HC in here. And he needs a recruitment shtick to get some players signing with us.

[Saul Goodman]

He’s an unmitigated disaster. The Nathan Peterman of GM’s. Just horrible at his job, and should be fired today.

Print his last check, change the locks and have him escorted out of the facility. 

[#27TheDominator]

36 minutes ago, BigRy56 said:

Not getting a franchise quarterback, to start.

Taking the 'better than you found it' approach here. Maccagnan took a team in QB purgatory with no hope in sight and gave it the best QB prospect that it's had since Namath. It took him longer than we hoped for, but that counts for something...

Then should have traded all his sh*t to move up for Mariota (I was/am not a huge fan) or Goff/Wentz.  It wasn't that hard or impossible.  What was the reasoning behind not doing so?  That they would have to give up to much and he wouldn't be able to fill out the rest of the roster?  Newsflash, the Kony Ealy, David Bass, Johnathan Martin, Kevin Pierre-Louis, Andre Roberts, Jonotthan Harrison, and Brandon Copelands of the world would still be available even without those mid-round picks he holds so dear.  Hell, he could have passed on Adams and taken either of two guys that superior teams are touting as franchise guys.

[genot]

9 minutes ago, #27TheDominator said:

Guys "not being around for long" is not a feather in the GM's cap.  Revis earned $40M for the 2 years he was here.  Harris got $15M+ for his 2 years.  Lee didn't replace Harris, he replaced Davis.  Then Davis came back and replaced Harris and then Williamson replaced Davis, but we have to keep these guys around for continuity? Claiborne replaced Revis?  Fine, then who replaced Cromartie?  I know it was supposed to be Burris, but he sucked and now 3 years later, they paid Johnson all that money and I am still waiting.  Claiborne is on his 2nd one year deal.  They will have to pay him to keep him.  

A GM is supposed to have replacements waiting in the wings and be ready a year or two in advance.  This guy gets the excuse that Rome wasn't built in a day, but then we are supposed to feel bad for him that the good players he inherited aged and declined? GTFO.  Who are the promising players they are developing?  Anderson?  Herndon, Shell?  McGuire was a borderline stiff and he has been one of the top picks. 

Jenkins was what he is out of the box.  Same for Adams and Williams.  I guess that Lee and Maye aren't washouts, but it has been four years and we are still hanging on to a bunch of maybes.  How many years did you say, just wait, Hackenberg hasn't had a real shot yet?   

McGuire a stiff. Doesn't look like one to me. i never said we should feel sorry for Mac. When you have to rebuild an entire roster with a bad head coach, it might take some time to the roster up to snuff.

[genot]

2 minutes ago, Saul Goodman said:

He’s an unmitigated disaster. The Nathan Peterman of GM’s. Just horrible at his job, and should be fired today.

Print his last check, change the locks and have him escorted out of the facility. 

If he's a disaster, what was Idzik

[#27TheDominator]

8 minutes ago, genot said:

One year. One year. One year. he needs to get a real HC in here. And he needs a recruitment shtick to get some players signing with us.

That is the sh*t we have been hearing all along.  First it was - look what he was stuck with. Then it was - well he had to sign those guys back, look how well they did last year.  Next it was - what do you expect, it is the first year of the rebuild?  Now, it is - the coach is bad and the qb a rookie and the offensive line is bad.  At least two of those three are his ******* fault.  Letting him hire a coach gets him more than one year.  

He has been doing this for 4 years and he needs a recruitment shtick?  It is ******* NYC.  He can't pull that off?  The cupcakes weren't enough? 

[BigRy56]

6 minutes ago, #27TheDominator said:

Then should have traded all his sh*t to move up for Mariota (I was/am not a huge fan) or Goff/Wentz.  It wasn't that hard or impossible.  What was the reasoning behind not doing so?  That they would have to give up to much and he wouldn't be able to fill out the rest of the roster?  Newsflash, the Kony Ealy, David Bass, Johnathan Martin, Kevin Pierre-Louis, Andre Roberts, Jonotthan Harrison, and Brandon Copelands of the world would still be available even without those mid-round picks he holds so dear.  Hell, he could have passed on Adams and taken either of two guys that superior teams are touting as franchise guys.

Winston & Mariota were locked in and 1/2 in that draft and if I remember correctly he tried like hell to trade up for Goff/Wentz but got outbid by the Eagles who could offer the #8 overall pick that year as opposed to our #20.

I'm not saying Mac has been great - just saying that he resolved (or seemingly so until further notice) the #1 issue bar none for this NYJ team.

[#27TheDominator]

5 minutes ago, genot said:

If he's a disaster, what was Idzik

Let me get this straight.

You don't think it is fair to dump Maccagnan, but you want to bag on Idzik?  Idzik was stuck with Rex and probably tried to sabotage him.  Then when things got ugly he went down with the ship.  Maccagnan and Bowles were selected as a team.  Idzik selected the best WR on this team, and that sh*tty 1-year TE he picked in 2014 had more receiving yards that year than any player Maccagnan has ever selected.  

[ZachEY]

59 minutes ago, BigRy56 said:

Not getting a franchise quarterback, to start.

Taking the 'better than you found it' approach here. Maccagnan took a team in QB purgatory with no hope in sight and gave it the best QB prospect that it's had since Namath. It took him longer than we hoped for, but that counts for something...

Indeed, his best move was generally being in the right place at the right time and having the Giants make what we all believe is a mistake.  The problem is, almost everything else he's done has been bad, and after 4 years, the team is still bad, and there's not a thing to support that young QB.