Where do you stand on Maccagnan?

[#27TheDominator]

6 minutes ago, BigRy56 said:

Winston & Mariota were locked in and 1/2 in that draft and if I remember correctly he tried like hell to trade up for Goff/Wentz but got outbid by the Eagles who could offer the #8 overall pick that year as opposed to our #20.

I'm not saying Mac has been great - just saying that he resolved (or seemingly so until further notice) the #1 issue bar none for this NYJ team.

The Eagles moved from 13 to 8 to 2.  The Rams moved up from 15 to 1. The Jets also had Wilkerson to offer in trade and he was still a fairly hot commodity at the time.  The ability to move up is always there, but the guy is married to the chart.

[56mehl56]

3 hours ago, Reynolds1029 said:

He should'nt put his job on the line for a QB that he isn't 110% confident in. He wasn't confident in Deshaun and Patrick. Other teams weren't either and that's why they fell to us at 6. If those picks we're such slam dunks other teams would have scooped them up earlier. But they didn't because they both had vast red flags coming into the draft. I liked that he waited for the stronger 2018 class and the draft move was genius. He was confident in 3 guys and traded to #3 to get one of them. It was gutsy and deserves all the credit for this.

Also a GM HAS to cater to the needs of the HC that HE INHEIRTED. He can't just pick whomever he feels is best. He needs to pick whomever he feels will fit his coach. So the picks that Maccagnan made were also influenced heavily by Todd Bowles and I do think Todd Bowles is equally responsible for the mess that the roster is. This is 3 years of Todd's guys not particularly Macc's guys. 

This is why Maccagnan all along needed a coach that he picked and can stand by. He was forced fed Todd Bowles and it's unfair for Maccagnan to be fired because Bowles can't coach the talent he was given, and Bowles was given A LOT of high draft picks for HIS defense.

 

Stop being so logical , you'll be vilified by the hordes here.

[ZachEY]

28 minutes ago, genot said:

McGuire a stiff. Doesn't look like one to me. i never said we should feel sorry for Mac. When you have to rebuild an entire roster with a bad head coach, it might take some time to the roster up to snuff.

Especially when you don't hit on draft picks.

[#27TheDominator]

1 hour ago, Bleedin Green said:

For those who opt to blame Bowles' coaching for Maccagnan's failures in the draft, let me ask a very simple question.  Can you name even one player drafted by Maccagnan that has gone on to see any success at all anywhere else in the league?

After all, if the issue was strictly coaching, a change of teams would be the perfect formula for these players to revitalize their careers.  And as @JiF already pointed out, there's a whooooole lot of Macc's picks that are available to the entire league.

Well, Chad Hansen did just sign with the Broncos practice squad!

[Larz]

He cleaned up a mess

Then he made his own mess

he can't be trusted to spend the cap money based on his contracts for Mo Revis and Tru

he can't be trusted to draft based on his drafting

now is the time to attract a top candidate, when you have cap room and a high pick

[joewilly12]

Just now, Larz said:

He cleaned up a mess

Our roster seems weaker and has less depth than when he got here. 

I could be mistaken. 

[Mogglez]

4 minutes ago, 56mehl56 said:

Stop being so logical , you'll be vilified by the hordes here.

99.9% of the time this is said, the "hordes" are right.

The only excuse you can give Macc at this point, yeah, Bowles and Bates are such awful coaches, that players aren't being put in the right position to succeed.  That being said, it's probably far more logical that, y'know, all 3 of them just really f*cking suck at their jobs.

[Long Island Leprechaun]

I honestly don't think it's a slam-dunk, but I can certainly see the arguments for both sides re his getting another year or going at the end of this year with Bowles. There is something to be said for continuity. That said, I don't feel either option is ridiculous or terrible. 

[jack48]

1 hour ago, Creepy Lurker said:

Good GMs love projects or to have a low risk/high reward situation with other teams’ failures. The fact that pretty much all of our failed picks are out of the league at young ages, is very disturbing.

It’s basically the 2 years of Idzik incompetence spread out over 4 years. Idzik was too much in such a short period that it blew everyone’s minds. Mac is just as bad and that’s almost unbelievable to me. 

Of course, Macc drafts his "projects" in the 2nd, 3rd and 4th rounds.  That is not quite the idea

[JustInFudge]

57 minutes ago, genot said:

What offensive player could we have signed, with the stopgap and crap QB's that were on our roster. We tried to sign Suh. He went to a sure fire contender. If we don't get a HC in here with a track record of winning in the NFL, it might be the same this year.

I didnt limit it to just offensive players but players sign for money and plenty of FA's over the past few years have gone places with not perfect QB situation.  That's a ridiculous excuse.  Besides, Mac is in charge of finding the QB too, ya know.

[#27TheDominator]

28 minutes ago, Long Island Leprechaun said:

I honestly don't think it's a slam-dunk, but I can certainly see the arguments for both sides re his getting another year or going at the end of this year with Bowles. There is something to be said for continuity. That said, I don't feel either option is ridiculous or terrible. 

Funny.  I feel both options are ridiculous and terrible!

[carlito1171]

What's troubling about this situation is that The Johnsons actually hired Mac and Bowles the correct way(it was dumb to have them both report directly to them but whatever) and they signed on for the rebuild this offseason....I hope if they feel enough heat to fire Maccagnan, they don't go back to their stupidity and blow that $100mil on a bunch of  has beens.......

[Bleedin Green]

12 minutes ago, JiF said:

I didnt limit it to just offensive players but players sign for money and plenty of FA's over the past few years have gone places with not perfect QB situation.  That's a ridiculous excuse.  Besides, Mac is in charge of finding the QB too, ya know.

It's not Mac's fault, because other good players won't come here without a good QB!

That's also not Mac's fault, because good QBs won't come here without other good players!

What a poor innocent victim.

[CanadienJetsFan]

#1: he inherited a crappy team thanks to Idzik...just how many of his picks are playing again?

#2: he had a ton of cap space to play with year 1. But Woody insisted he re-sign Revis. He Then re-signed Cromartie, Skrine, Gilchrist, Carpenter, Colon, Harris, Powell. Trading for Marshall and Fitz confirmed that he was trying to build a somewhat competitive team ASAP. The 2015 squad did compete but fell flat on their face in buffalo as we all know. You want to blame Mac for losing to the bills that day, go at it.

#3, the 2015-16 offseason was a disaster. Not signing Fitz quickly proved costly to the positive momentum built the year before ( July 29). The team  with the relative same lineup went 5-11 thanks to the poor play of the veterans who did play well the year prior. Again...you want to blame that debacle on Mac, go ahead.

#4, a complete purge of all veterans was ok’d by ownership during the 16-17 offseason. Mac not Bowles must have done quite the sell job to convince ownership that rebuilding was the way to go. 

Conclusion, Mac will still be around come black Monday. Yes, he’s had his share of draft busts but his 1st rounders are all starters and let’s not forget that he did get ownership that franchise QB they’ve been waiting a million years for. That’s worth it’s weight in gold for a successful Darnold can add an extra billion bucks to the value of the NYJ...remember, this is a business first after all.

Bowles on the other hand hurt his chances of returning by not winning at least one of the last 2 games. But his non firing this Monday tells you just how much ownership holds him in high regard.

Barring someone like Harbaugh, Cowher, Holmgren wanting to run it all, Mac will be back.

 

[jack48]

14 minutes ago, carlito1171 said:

What's troubling about this situation is that The Johnsons actually hired Mac and Bowles the correct way(it was dumb to have them both report directly to them but whatever) and they signed on for the rebuild this offseason....I hope if they feel enough heat to fire Maccagnan, they don't go back to their stupidity and blow that $100mil on a bunch of  has beens.......

the reporting structure was important.  Most teams have a football mind above the GM and the coach.  Who did Johnson have to advise him regarding the futures of these guys?  Does he ask them if he should fire them?  He hamstrung himself.

[jack48]

5 hours ago, The Crusher said:

Kneeling 

where do I stand on Maccagnan?  His head, if given my druthers

[jack48]

Just now, jack48 said:

where do I stand on Maccagnan?  His head, if given my druthers---by the way, what do druthers actually look like?

 

[56mehl56]

1 hour ago, #27TheDominator said:

Then should have traded all his sh*t to move up for Mariota (I was/am not a huge fan) or Goff/Wentz.  It wasn't that hard or impossible.  What was the reasoning behind not doing so?  That they would have to give up to much and he wouldn't be able to fill out the rest of the roster?  Newsflash, the Kony Ealy, David Bass, Johnathan Martin, Kevin Pierre-Louis, Andre Roberts, Jonotthan Harrison, and Brandon Copelands of the world would still be available even without those mid-round picks he holds so dear.  Hell, he could have passed on Adams and taken either of two guys that superior teams are touting as franchise guys.

He'd be getting strung up by his nuts if he wholesale traded to draft Mariotta. 

[56mehl56]

1 hour ago, Larz said:

He cleaned up a mess

Then he made his own mess

he can't be trusted to spend the cap money based on his contracts for Mo Revis and Tru

he can't be trusted to draft based on his drafting

now is the time to attract a top candidate, when you have cap room and a high pick

Do you think starting CB's in FA come free , if he signed lesser $ FA's , everyone would bitch but why didn't he sign Revis or Johnson with all the $$ he had available. Johnson's been bad but he's being injured and misused plus any CB will look bad w/o a pass rush something the Jets legitimately don't have. 

[Larz]

Just now, 56mehl56 said:

Do you think starting CB's in FA come free , if he signed lesser $ FA's , everyone would bitch but why didn't he sign Revis or Johnson with all the $$ he had available. Johnson's been bad but he's being injured and misused plus any CB will look bad w/o a pass rush something the Jets legitimately don't have. 

Tru is garbage, he takes plays off and Revis literally jogged around avoiding contact

Leaving the offer on the table for weeks with Fitz was very telling, he can't influence the process. He's not a cut throat closer

he walked away from mack over a 4th round pick

he allowed himself to be used as a stalking horse with cousins, it was very obvious that kirk was signing with the vikings

Macc couldn't even schedule a visit lol

He had his chance, muffed it

[56mehl56]

5 minutes ago, Larz said:

Tru is garbage, he takes plays off and Revis literally jogged around avoiding contact

Leaving the offer on the table for weeks with Fitz was very telling, he can't influence the process. He's not a cut throat closer

he walked away from mack over a 4th round pick

he allowed himself to be used as a stalking horse with cousins, it was very obvious that kirk was signing with the vikings

Macc couldn't even schedule a visit lol

He had his chance, muffed it

I agree about Revis  not about Tru . But my point was if Mac signed middle of the road $$ FA's at CB the narrative would have been well why didn't he get Revis or Johnson .  

[Larz]

1 minute ago, 56mehl56 said:

I agree about Revis  not about Tru . But my point was if Mac signed middle of the road $$ FA's at CB the narrative would have been well why didn't he get Revis or Johnson .  

OK

his main flaw tho is roster construction

on offense with no punch and a defense with no rush

what is the identity of the team? What was he trying to do?

 

[56mehl56]

40 minutes ago, Larz said:

OK

his main flaw tho is roster construction

on offense with no punch and a defense with no rush

what is the identity of the team? What was he trying to do?

 

Who sets the identity of the team the coach or the GM. In most functional organizations its a bit of both , over the years based on what the Jets draft has focused on , I'd have to say the HC has major influence. 

[Reynolds1029]

6 hours ago, Creepy Lurker said:

I agree with the QB situation which is why I said he liked 2018 QB class better. Nothing wrong with that. But to praise him for finally getting one like it was some huge feat is crazy. Consistent top 10 picks and after missing terrible and overdrafting Hackenturd by 2 whole rounds, he HAD to find a QB. He was at the end of the rope in that regard. He didn’t know who would be there at #3.

Luckily it worked out and as I said I GIVE HIM CREDIT for trading up early (keeping the price down) and being in position for “a” QB(not necessarily the one that he wanted because there was no guarantee that he’d be there at #3). So he gets credit but not to the point of making him untouchable and it absolutely does not give him a pass for the ABSOLUTELY TERRIBLE job of drafting that the so called scout did during 2015-2017.

2018 is too soon but I still had issues with it on draft day given our needs (o-line in 3rd maybe? late round return specialist?).  Herndon and Nickerson seem like they may be nice depth and I hope Shepherd pans out (I HATE Older draft picks which is a Mac specialty). 

But you completely dodged my comments on Todd Bowles. What most fans fail to see is that a GM can't just pick whatever player he feels has the best chance to make an impact. Because those players may or may not fit into Todd Bowles' scheme or coaching style. There is a lot more to being a GM than just picking the hottest and best the NCAA has to offer. The player needs to be a fit for the team as a whole. If you forcefeed a GM a coach that he did not select or necessarily want? You wind up with essentially a power struggle on who to select and leads to much infighting over coffee issues and player selections. 

The Todd Bowles and Mike Maccagnan relationship is just another typical Woody Johnson fuc*up. He quite literally repeated the same mistake for the THRID TIME. Forcing a current head coach from the old regime onto a new incoming GM. (Herm Edwards when Mike T took over for Bradway, Rex Ryan when John Idzik got hired and finally Tood Bowles v. Mike Maccagnan) If you look around the league, this always fails and we're no exception. Woody fails at everything in life except for having a nice hedge fund. 

But Mike Maccagnan did something truly special that deserves the chance with his own HC. He found the NEW YORK FRIGGIN JETS A FREAKING FRANCHISE QB. HE DID SOMETHING THAT WE COULDN'T DO FOR 50 YEARS. NOT EVEN PARCELLS OR REX DID THIS. CALL IT LUCK OR WHATEVER GIVE THAT MAN A COOKIE WITH HIS COFFEE!!!!

On a different note I also would like to mention this. GMs can learn from past mistakes. The guy was a complete rookie and was just a really nerdy scout to managing a whole roster and being the face of it (with a coach he didn't pick). I believe Mac with 4 years under his belt is going to be a lot smarter than the next scout or whomever whose name none of us knew of until he was a headline on the New York Post. 

Give the guy a break, he deserves his own coach and his own roster before we send him to the wolves. All of his predecessors were worse than him, sometimes......

We the fans are the reason why we can't have nice things................ 

 

[Reynolds1029]

3 hours ago, 56mehl56 said:

Stop being so logical , you'll be vilified by the hordes here.

After my last post I may not make it through the night!!

[Creepy Lurker]

6 minutes ago, Reynolds1029 said:

But you completely dodged my comments on Todd Bowles. What most fans fail to see is that a GM can't just pick whatever player he feels has the best chance to make an impact. Because those players may or may not fit into Todd Bowles' scheme or coaching style. There is a lot more to being a GM than just picking the hottest and best the NCAA has to offer. The player needs to be a fit for the team as a whole. If you forcefeed a GM a coach that he did not select or necessarily want? You wind up with essentially a power struggle on who to select and leads to much infighting over coffee issues and player selections. 

The Todd Bowles and Mike Maccagnan relationship is just another typical Woody Johnson fuc*up. He quite literally repeated the same mistake for the THRID TIME. Forcing a current head coach from the old regime onto a new incoming GM. (Herm Edwards when Mike T took over for Bradway, Rex Ryan when John Idzik got hired and finally Tood Bowles v. Mike Maccagnan) If you look around the league, this always fails and we're no exception. Woody fails at everything in life except for having a nice hedge fund. 

But Mike Maccagnan did something truly special that deserves the chance with his own HC. He found the NEW YORK FRIGGIN JETS A FREAKING FRANCHISE QB. HE DID SOMETHING THAT WE COULDN'T DO FOR 50 YEARS. NOT EVEN PARCELLS OR REX DID THIS. CALL IT LUCK OR WHATEVER GIVE THAT MAN A COOKIE WITH HIS COFFEE!!!!

On a different note I also would like to mention this. GMs can learn from past mistakes. The guy was a complete rookie and was just a really nerdy scout to managing a whole roster and being the face of it (with a coach he didn't pick). I believe Mac with 4 years under his belt is going to be a lot smarter than the next scout or whomever whose name none of us knew of until he was a headline on the New York Post. 

Give the guy a break, he deserves his own coach and his own roster before we send him to the wolves. All of his predecessors were worse than him, sometimes......

We the fans are the reason why we can't have nice things................ 

 

I didn’t dodge anything. I’ve moved onto Mac. Bowles is gone. I’m focusing on Mac. The fact that your low bar and criteria is drafting a top QB prospect and before knowing if he is good or not, crowning him like he has proved himself, is crazy. This is your criteria? Ignore all the bad moves.

It’s all ok because he traded up to grab a top QB prospect because of another top 10 pick and having the ammo to get within range. We may be ruining this great prospect because of his mismanagement of the roster but sure, give the guy a break. This isn’t a results business. It’s about being nice and giving a PROVEN failure at drafting, more time.

Fans like me aren’t the reason that we can’t have nice things. Terrible ownership and people like you setting the bar EXTREMELY LOW and promoting a culture of LOSING and it being acceptable to suck at your job, are the reasons why we can’t have “nice things”. That’s completely UNACCEPTABLE.

Think what you want and obviously we don’t agree but I am not interested in a failure that has to learn everything on the fly. ANYONE could have done better than this guy and Bowles has nothing to do with his terrible draft philosophy and drafting of Hackenturd. 

[Creepy Lurker]

13 minutes ago, Reynolds1029 said:

After my last post I may not make it through the night!!

No way. Everyone needs an opinion. We can always agree to disagree. It’s better to speak your mind than keep it to yourself. Good dialogue. 

[jack48]

11 hours ago, 56mehl56 said:

Do you think starting CB's in FA come free , if he signed lesser $ FA's , everyone would bitch but why didn't he sign Revis or Johnson with all the $$ he had available. Johnson's been bad but he's being injured and misused plus any CB will look bad w/o a pass rush something the Jets legitimately don't have. 

he ignored quality OL while on the hunt for a QB.  He ignored wide receivers (or drafted horribly) while pursuing a franchise QB.  It would have been far more sagacious to have these things in place when the QB got here

[Philc1]

12 hours ago, Larz said:

Tru is garbage, he takes plays off and Revis literally jogged around avoiding contact

Leaving the offer on the table for weeks with Fitz was very telling, he can't influence the process. He's not a cut throat closer

he walked away from mack over a 4th round pick

he allowed himself to be used as a stalking horse with cousins, it was very obvious that kirk was signing with the vikings

Macc couldn't even schedule a visit lol

He had his chance, muffed it

Macc is horrific at everything.  It will be a joke when this idiot gets to pick the next HC and essentially get a three year extension 

[dbatesman]

12 hours ago, 56mehl56 said:

I agree about Revis  not about Tru . But my point was if Mac signed middle of the road $$ FA's at CB the narrative would have been well why didn't he get Revis or Johnson .  

No one would care either way if he drafted guys who can actually play.

[Philc1]

3 minutes ago, dbatesman said:

No one would care either way if he drafted guys who can actually play.

It’s very telling that 2018 is by far his best draft when he only got 3 players

[Creepy Lurker]

5 minutes ago, Philc1 said:

It’s very telling that 2018 is by far his best draft when he only got 3 players

Flashing doesn’t mean success either. It may even mean depth which should be a realistic target for players. No one is a late round steal.

Robbie was the closest thing to that but he is No steal. 1 trick pony deep threat with great hands. Not enough. There are no starter’s that were drafted late besides him and he is a de facto starter on a team void of talent. 

[#27TheDominator]

13 hours ago, 56mehl56 said:

He'd be getting strung up by his nuts if he wholesale traded to draft Mariotta. 

 

13 hours ago, 56mehl56 said:

Do you think starting CB's in FA come free , if he signed lesser $ FA's , everyone would bitch but why didn't he sign Revis or Johnson with all the $$ he had available. Johnson's been bad but he's being injured and misused plus any CB will look bad w/o a pass rush something the Jets legitimately don't have. 

How do you think this sh*t is not an indictment of his abilities as GM?  If he knew who to go in on, he wouldn't be worried about what the public thought.  He'd pick the right QB and move up.  He'd spend on the right CB and DE and they'd perform.  The fact that they didn't know what they had with Wilkerson is pathetic.  They are paying him $9M this year to sit on the Packers IR because they had a "heart to heart discussion."  In his 5th ******* year?  

[genot]

30 minutes ago, Creepy Lurker said:

Flashing doesn’t mean success either. It may even mean depth which should be a realistic target for players. No one is a late round steal.

Robbie was the closest thing to that but he is No steal. 1 trick pony deep threat with great hands. Not enough. There are no starter’s that were drafted late besides him and he is a de facto starter on a team void of talent. 

If Mac dies under mysterious circumstances,{god forbid],You'll be the prime suspect.

[Creepy Lurker]

2 minutes ago, genot said:

If Mac dies under mysterious circumstances,{god forbid],You'll be the prime suspect.

The best. Miss him.