Will / Should Bowles and/or Maccagnan Be Fired?

[Sarge4Tide]

Sorry to add to the already impressive list of "firing" threads, but I wanted to add a poll

[Barry McCockinner]

This probably won't be a popular opinion but I don't think Mac should get canned UNLESS we're able to land a high profile coach who we're comfortable handing over the GM duties to as well. There aren't many coaches who deserve that kind of power - possibly Saban is the only one I can think of off the top of my head.

GM's generally get at least two head coaches to work with before getting canned. It's much more disruptive to a franchise to change GM's so as a general rule it should be done less often IMO. The first draft class for new GMs is hard to judge since they're stuck using the input from the scouts of the previous regime. 

I will say that Mac should be on a short leash. 

[Creepy Lurker]

6 minutes ago, Sarge4Tide said:

Sorry to add to the already impressive list of "firing" threads, but I wanted to add a poll

Well it is the state of the franchise right now. Wish we weren’t talking about these things but here we are. 

[JustInFudge]

Both unequivocally should be fired.

But I got really strange feeling, everyone is back next year when the real rebuild starts and we spring this thing forward.

 

[Creepy Lurker]

1 minute ago, Barry McCockinner said:

This probably won't be a popular opinion but I don't think Mac should get canned UNLESS we're able to land a high profile coach who we're comfortable handing over the GM duties to as well. There aren't many coaches who deserve that kind of power - possibly Saban is the only one I can think of off the top of my head.

GM's generally get at least two head coaches to work with before getting canned. It's much more disruptive to a franchise to change GM's so as a general rule it should be done less often IMO. The first draft class for new GMs is hard to judge since they're stuck using the input from the scouts of the previous regime. 

I will say that Mac should be on a short leash. 

I disagree. That short leash will prevent getting any decent head coaches. By keeping Mac and Bowles, we will be WELL behind other teams as they get first shot at hiring.

A realistic “band aid” would be to promote Heimerdinger to “audition” as GM for next year while taking a chance on an offensive minded coach WHILE we search for an actual president of football operations that can really sort things out and attract the right candidates. It’ll take time to find one and there is no way we find one, a GM and a coach AND resign our 50 billion free agents all in one offseason. 

This way we aren’t rushed and miss out on anyone good this year. Maybe we get lucky and hit on the coach and honestly at this point, we are just throwing darts, so no big deal if we miss again and by then we would have an actual leader (president of football ops) handling everything the right way and not have to play catch-up. 2019 is probably a lost year since we are starting in a major hole. 

[Barry McCockinner]

6 minutes ago, Creepy Lurker said:

I disagree. That short leash will prevent getting any decent head coaches. By keeping Mac and Bowles, we will be WELL behind other teams as they get first shot at hiring.

 A realistic “band aid” would be to promote Heimerdinger to “audition” as GM for next year while taking a chance on an offensive minded coach WHILE we search for an actual president of football operations that can really sort things out and attract the right candidates. It’ll take time to find one and there is no way we find one, a GM and a coach AND resign our 50 billion free agents all in one offseason. 

 This way we aren’t rushed and miss out on anyone good this year. Maybe we get lucky and hit on the coach and honestly at this point, we are just throwing darts, so no big deal if we miss again and by then we would have an actual leader (president of football ops) handling everything the right way and not have to play catch-up. 2019 is probably a lost year since we are starting in a major hole. 

Potential coaches don't get a lot of opportunities at NFL HC jobs. There are a limited number each year, most of which do not come with a new GM. Last year there were I think 7 HC openings and only one of them came with a new GM. They weren't openings because they were good teams. They also should try to strike while the iron is hot because they can become undesirable just as quickly as they became a hot item. All it takes is a few key injuries and a dumpster fire of a season and all of the sudden they aren't getting calls to interview for HC jobs anymore.

This is different for coaches who voluntarily retired who may want to get back in the game. They can wait and carefully pick their spots. Are coaches who have the luxury of sitting and waiting to pick their spot going to pick the Jets anyway? Questionable at best. I also wonder if we want to take a chance at an older coach like Cowher or Turner where there's a good chance the game has passed them by.

[Jetsfan80]

1 minute ago, Barry McCockinner said:

Potential coaches don't get a lot of opportunities at NFL HC jobs. There are a limited number each year, most of which do not come with a new GM. They also should try to strike while the iron is hot because they can become undesirable just as quickly as they became a hot item. All it takes is a few key injuries and a dumpster fire of a season and all of the sudden they aren't getting calls to interview for HC jobs anymore.

This is different for coaches who voluntarily retired who may want to get back in the game. They can wait and carefully pick their spots. Are coaches who have the luxury of sitting and waiting to pick their spot going to pick the Jets anyway? Questionable at best. 

 

Just look at how many coaching vacancies are open or about to open up around the league.  Packers, Browns, maybe the Cowboys, Bucs and Broncos.....the hotshot Coordinators and college guys will have more options than you think.  And all of those situations other than MAYBE the Bucs are better jobs than the Jets. 

[Barry McCockinner]

2 minutes ago, Jetsfan80 said:

 

Just look at how many coaching vacancies are open or about to open up around the league.  Packers, Browns, maybe the Cowboys, Bucs and Broncos.....the hotshot Coordinators and college guys will have more options than you think.  And all of those situations other than MAYBE the Bucs are better jobs than the Jets. 

Packers & Cowboys are the only situations I see as clearly more desirable than the Jets. I don't think firing Mac changes the needle on either of those.

[Creepy Lurker]

1 minute ago, Barry McCockinner said:

Potential coaches don't get a lot of opportunities at NFL HC jobs. There are a limited number each year, most of which do not come with a new GM. Last year there were I think 7 HC openings and only one of them came with a new GM. They weren't openings because they were good teams. They also should try to strike while the iron is hot because they can become undesirable just as quickly as they became a hot item. All it takes is a few key injuries and a dumpster fire of a season and all of the sudden they aren't getting calls to interview for HC jobs anymore.

This is different for coaches who voluntarily retired who may want to get back in the game. They can wait and carefully pick their spots. Are coaches who have the luxury of sitting and waiting to pick their spot going to pick the Jets anyway? Questionable at best.

The coaches that have the luxury of waiting would only pick the Jets for money and if they have someone competent in charge. Mac ruined the team and like Bowles, can’t be brought back.

To maintain SOME continuity and have the ability to handle the upcoming draft and busiest offseason ever (due to our own free agents), temporarily promoting from within would be a band aid while take our time to find someone respectable because they aren’t coming here overnight.

You absolutely WILL NOT find a great coaching candidate this year with Mac as GM and we all know that Mac will continue to ruin the team so it’s counterproductive. We have to “settle” for right now until we have credibility (respected president of football ops). 

Clearly this is just my opinion and what I think is the only realistic shot at having any hope and making improvements that actually put us on the right path. I do not think this will happen at all and  I’m getting tired of thinking of “what would make sense” for this team because they sure as sh*t won’t do it anyways. 

[Creepy Lurker]

1 minute ago, Barry McCockinner said:

Packers & Cowboys are the only situations I see as clearly more desirable than the Jets. I don't think firing Mac changes the needle on either of those.

What about the Ravens? It could be a messy offseason for coaches. What if one of these fired coaches is still getting paid for 2019 on their old contract and take a year off to recharge?

Rex jumped right into another job after us since he was worried about his staff being employed but it wouldn’t have been a shock to take a year off and re-charge. Then they come back as an even more hyped candidate with lesser competition after competitive coaching offseason like this one will be and truly have their pick of where to go. 

[Jetster]

I think Macc should be fired, his decision to draft Hackenberg in the 2nd round had a ripple affect on our drafting process in 2017. 

If he doesn't make the Hack mistake, the Jets would have chosen either Mahomes or Watson in 2017. Not only that but because he chose Hack at the top of the 2nd round, teams wanting to trade up for a QB knew the Jets were not in the QB business in 2017 based on the crap they were feeding everyone about Hacks development. 

Had he not taken Hackenberg, EVERYONE would have known the Jets were in the market for a QB in 2017! Their QB was 38 years old! Who knows how that draft plays out? 

And because of the Hackenberg failure he had to trade 3 second rounders for Darnold on a team that was supposedly in rebuild mode? How do you rebuild trading away draft assets? Like in said in another thread, the Colts got Ladarius Leonard with our 2nd rounder, currently in the NFL defensive rookie of the year running.

Clearly the Jets are where they are because of horrific drafting. This has been a theme since Mangini left. Mistake, after mistake, after mistake has taken its toll. If Macc stays, it's to help on contracts, mid level signings under Heimerdinger or a new GM. You can't go 4 years and have Darnold, Leo, Adams & Herndon to show for it, you just can't. 

[Barry McCockinner]

33 minutes ago, Creepy Lurker said:

The coaches that have the luxury of waiting would only pick the Jets for money and if they have someone competent in charge. Mac ruined the team and like Bowles, can’t be brought back.

To maintain SOME continuity and have the ability to handle the upcoming draft and busiest offseason ever (due to our own free agents), temporarily promoting from within would be a band aid while take our time to find someone respectable because they aren’t coming here overnight.

You absolutely WILL NOT find a great coaching candidate this year with Mac as GM and we all know that Mac will continue to ruin the team so it’s counterproductive. We have to “settle” for right now until we have credibility (respected president of football ops). 

Clearly this is just my opinion and what I think is the only realistic shot at having any hope and making improvements that actually put us on the right path. I do not think this will happen at all and  I’m getting tired of thinking of “what would make sense” for this team because they sure as sh*t won’t do it anyways. 

You really think Mac ruined the team? He didn't exactly inherit a dynasty roster from idzik.

[southparkcpa]

9 minutes ago, Barry McCockinner said:

You really think Mac ruined the team? He didn't exactly inherit a dynasty roster from idzik.

He's had 4 years, CAP space out the arse and we now have a worse roster.  He sat on his hands and let Mahommes and Watson go by while we had McCown.   Has drafted 2 OL in 4 years.  He is an absolute JOKE of a football mind.  How much worse could he do to convince you?  He had a rebuild opportunity and paid lazy fat vets like Wilk, Revis etc...   trying to achieve the almighty 9-7 season.  He may be the worst GM in the league.

[Ken Schroy]

1 hour ago, Sarge4Tide said:

Sorry to add to the already impressive list of "firing" threads, but I wanted to add a poll

great idea.

[FidelioJet]

As far as I'm concerned they both absolutely need to go.

I truly believe Mac is a bigger problem than Bowles.

If you're the GM of a team for 4 years and your team currently has the worst talent in the league (and they do) there is simply zero reason to believe he'll all of a sudden be able to build a Super Bowl contending roster.

[dbatesman]

20 minutes ago, Barry McCockinner said:

You really think Mac ruined the team? He didn't exactly inherit a dynasty roster from idzik.

sweet merciful crap

[Creepy Lurker]

22 minutes ago, Barry McCockinner said:

You really think Mac ruined the team? He didn't exactly inherit a dynasty roster from idzik.

Yes. He ruined it by doing NOTHING in 4 years to make it better. 

[Obrien2Toon]

33 minutes ago, Barry McCockinner said:

You really think Mac ruined the team? He didn't exactly inherit a dynasty roster from idzik.

So let’s give him 20 years and if they still suck, we’ll blame it on Idzick

[ChuckkieB]

This is very simple.  Bowles is gone for sure and any quasi competent owner should realize that if they want to attract a quality GM, that GM needs to have the ability to pick his head coach.  Giving Mac one more year to prove himself and fail would mean his firing after 2019 and then a new GM would have to come in without the ability to pick his own ocah.  This hasn't worked for the Jets and won't work again.  The ONLY solution to break this stupid cycle is to fire them both and start from scratch.  

[Lith]

34 minutes ago, Barry McCockinner said:

You really think Mac ruined the team? He didn't exactly inherit a dynasty roster from idzik.

He has almost completely turned over the roster in his four years.  The only guys left from the Idzik era are: Winters, Enunwa, Dozier, Miles and Powell (may be missing one or two).  This is Macc's roster.  Not Idziks.

[Barry McCockinner]

16 minutes ago, southparkcpa said:

He's had 4 years, CAP space out the arse and we now have a worse roster.  He sat on his hands and let Mahommes and Watson go by while we had McCown.   Has drafted 2 OL in 4 years.  He is an absolute JOKE of a football mind.  How much worse could he do to convince you?  He had a rebuild opportunity and paid lazy fat vets like Wilk, Revis etc...   trying to achieve the almighty 9-7 season.  He may be the worst GM in the league.

The 2015 roster was filled with aging vets and was a better roster but most of the good players were at the end of their careers. There was little to no young talent on the roster despite the previous GM having a boatload of draft picks to work with. Outside of Powell and Winters what younger talent what on the roster he inherited? The cupboards were bare and he had to completely restock the shelves. 

After the 2015 draft, which used Idzik scouts, he has done a decent job of finding players who are on the active roster.  15 of the 23 picks from 2016-18 are active roster and at least half of those are starters. Granted - it wasn't exactly a monumental task to make the active roster given the slate he started with. He's had his misses like all GM's do, but 15 of 23 is a pretty good percentage. He also picked up Robby Anderson as a nice UDFA gem.

I'm not saying Mac has done a bang up job, I just think he had a massive uphill battle. I'd like to see how his roster would perform with a competent coach before throwing him out. Macs biggest failure is his neglect of the o-line IMO and if I were the owner I would stress to him that his #1 priority should be o-line followed by surrounding Darnold with weapons. He's done a nice job of cleaning the cap slate for 2019 too.

[Barry McCockinner]

3 minutes ago, Lith said:

He has almost completely turned over the roster in his four years.  The only guys left from the Idzik era are: Winters, Enunwa, Dozier, Miles and Powell (may be missing one or two).  This is Macc's roster.  Not Idziks.

I didn't say it was Idziks roster. I said he inherited garbage and asked if he ruined the team. How can you ruin that which is already trash? 

[Barry McCockinner]

7 minutes ago, Obrien2Toon said:

So let’s give him 20 years and if they still suck, we’ll blame it on Idzick

Nah - like I said I think he should be on a short leash. 

[Paradis]

31 minutes ago, Barry McCockinner said:

You really think Mac ruined the team? He didn't exactly inherit a dynasty roster from idzik.

you've got to be kidding me -- and everyone else who still has a pulse on this website. 

Mac has categorically eroded this roster with a nail file. 4 years and he can hang his hat on what? Adams and a QB he lucked out on? 

Fck outta here. 

[Jetster]

30 minutes ago, FidelioJet said:

As far as I'm concerned they both absolutely need to go.

I truly believe Mac is a bigger problem than Bowles.

If you're the GM of a team for 4 years and your team currently has the worst talent in the league (and they do) there is simply zero reason to believe he'll all of a sudden be able to build a Super Bowl contending roster.

Bowles is terrible! His hires are terrible! There is NO WAY ON GODS GREEN EARTH that you can tell me the Jets defense is the worst in the league, but that's the way they perform when they HAVE TO MAKE A STOP! That's coaching, that's not GMing! 

Bowles is the worst coach I've ever seen when it comes to making adjustments, he just can't do it. He might be a nice guy but the guy is a checker player in a chess league. He ALWAYS makes the wrong decision, it's mind boggling. He'll blitz & the other team ALWAYS finds that open player wide open running down the sideline, he'll play dime & the other team will ALWAYS find a way to run at that tiny LB, he punts when he should go, he goes when he should punt, he kicks FGs from the 1 yard line, he's literally the dumbest coach I've ever witnessed! 

We all go back to the 2015 loss in Buffalo & cement shoes Ridley starting, but how about the opener at home vs the Bengals? Jets are up 7-0, we smash our way in the second possession to the 1/2 yard line, 4th down, the crowd is in a frenzy, we're gonna go up 14-0, if not the Bengals are backed into the endzone.....Bowles goes FG, kicker misses, Bengals win 23-22! If that series of events doesn't say everything we've known about Todd Bowles since that game, NOTHING DOES. I can't stand looking at him, he's awash in bad karma.

[FidelioJet]

38 minutes ago, southparkcpa said:

He's had 4 years, CAP space out the arse and we now have a worse roster.  He sat on his hands and let Mahommes and Watson go by while we had McCown.   Has drafted 2 OL in 4 years.  He is an absolute JOKE of a football mind.  How much worse could he do to convince you?  He had a rebuild opportunity and paid lazy fat vets like Wilk, Revis etc...   trying to achieve the almighty 9-7 season.  He may be the worst GM in the league.

Well, The Jets have the worst talent in the league and he's been the GM for four years.  I think that would classify him as the worst GM in the NFL.  

It would be tough for anyone to argue otherwise.  

[Barry McCockinner]

11 minutes ago, Paradis said:

you've got to be kidding me -- and everyone else who still has a pulse on this website. 

Mac has categorically eroded this roster with a nail file. 4 years and he can hang his hat on what? Adams and a QB he lucked out on? 

 Fck outta here. 

The coaching staff is incompetent and that makes it a little difficult to judge the talent. One thing he's done well is nail his first rounders which many say is a gimme but previous Jets GM's have had trouble with. He's added 2nd tier talent in the later rounds too - Herndon, Shepherd, Maye, McGuire, Jenkins, Shell, UDFA - Anderson.

The talent on the roster he inherited was veteran heavy with little young talent. I don't see what he did as eroding the talent - more so it aged out. 

Give him a competent coaching staff and I think the team looks much, much different if he can address the big o-line problem, add a true #1 WR (assuming we can keep enuwa & anderson), and a play making RB. Hell maybe Cannon can be that guy with a competent coaching staff. 

 

 

[FidelioJet]

7 minutes ago, Jetster said:

Bowles is terrible! His hires are terrible! There is NO WAY ON GODS GREEN EARTH that you can tell me the Jets defense is the worst in the league, but that's the way they perform when they HAVE TO MAKE A STOP! That's coaching, that's not GMing! 

Bowles is the worst coach I've ever seen when it comes to making adjustments, he just can't do it. He might be a nice guy but the guy is a checker player in a chess league. He ALWAYS makes the wrong decision, it's mind boggling. He'll blitz & the other team ALWAYS finds that open player wide open running down the sideline, he'll play dime & the other team will ALWAYS find a way to run at that tiny LB, he punts when he should go, he goes when he should punt, he kicks FGs from the 1 yard line, he's literally the dumbest coach I've ever witnessed! 

We all go back to the 2015 loss in Buffalo & cement shoes Ridley starting, but how about the opener at home vs the Bengals? Jets are up 7-0, we smash our way in the second possession to the 1/2 yard line, 4th down, the crowd is in a frenzy, we're gonna go up 14-0, if not the Bengals are backed into the endzone.....Bowles goes FG, kicker misses, Bengals win 23-22! If that series of events doesn't say everything we've known about Todd Bowles since that game, NOTHING DOES. I can't stand looking at him, he's awash in bad karma.

I, by no means, said Bowles is a good coach.  He has clearly proven himself not to be, but.....

I believe Mac is worse.  He simply lacks the basic fundamentals and understanding of todays NFL....

He has consistently drafted interior defensive players (DT, MLB and Safety's) with 1st and 2nd round draft picks - in a league where that is currently designed for spread offenses.

He has put very few premium picks into the offense...

He seemingly refuses to draft O-linemen

This team has NO impact players (well, maybe Adams) in a league where impact players are what matter most.

With Mac it's not just about the fact that most of his pics didn't pan out (I can live with misses - not all picks hit)

t's that his fundamental understanding of the NFL is clearly lacking.  And that can't change.

[JohnnyLV]

One thing that hasnt been mentioned is our scouting department. Outside of maybe the first round which you could use a magazine to select players effectively, we seem to have serious issues in identifying talent. Whatever the criteria we use, and how we rank them off that criteria is not producing a list that seems to identify the best player available. We seem to be especially weak at identifying receivers and OL. What we don't know is what influence Bowles has on the draft board both indirectly or directly. Does Bowles have a large voice in building the board? Is the board organized by suitability to Bowles defense and prioritized in position by whats most important to Bowles? As an example, is safety actually viewed as more critical than OL, things like that.

If this is true, and those priorities are adjusted for a new coach and philosophy then maybe we draft better as well going forward. But no way for us to know, other than our drafting has been horrible.

 

 

[UntouchableCrew]

Todd Bowles should be fired and clearly will be fired. Total lock.

Mike Maccagnan should be fired but it looks like he won't be. I'd say 5-10% he's gone.

[Patriot Killa]

Luv ya Sarge...but we really didn’t need to do this for the hundredth time.

And yes—there are a lot of fans who think Maccagnan should stay. Maybe not a ton on this message board but I’ve nearly smacked several fans in person for trying to tell me he should stay.

[Sarge4Tide]

Just now, Patriot Killa said:

Luv ya Sarge...but we really didn’t need to do this for the hundredth time.

And yes—there are a lot of fans who think Maccagnan should stay. Maybe not a ton on this message board but I’ve nearly smacked several fans in person for trying to tell me he should stay.

I hear you, but I was going for the difference between whether people think they WILL be fired and whether they SHOULD be fired.

That was the angle I was interested in.  But, point taken

[Rangers9]

Bowles has had a fair shot at it 4 seasons. He has enough talent this season imo to have a better record. The defense looks unprepared in many games and we get easily out coached. We see big holes in the secondary that even teams with weak offenses can exploit.  Our DBs in terms of talent are not as bad as they look on Sundays. In a better scheme I think they would play better. There are also bad decisions like starting a center with an injured finger who obviously could not make the snaps. Bowles is a respected coach around the league and I hoped he would improve.  Also adjustments at half time usually favor the opposition. As for Macc I thought he made some good moves like the trade away of Sheldon to get that extra pick which allowed us to draft Sam. In his earlier days he had cap space and didn't spend it well. Do you want to give him even more money in 2019. I wouldn't fire him. Let him choose the new coach and give Macc authority over the budget. I don't think he will do anything crazy and screw things up. I don't fire him and I give him the reins to make the decisions for 2019. 

[kelly]

14 minutes ago, UntouchableCrew said:

Todd Bowles should be fired and clearly will be fired. Total lock.

Mike Maccagnan should be fired but it looks like he won't be. I'd say 5-10% he's gone.

bowles is Gone after this season. mac should be.. but won't be   ?

[#27TheDominator]

55 minutes ago, southparkcpa said:

He's had 4 years, CAP space out the arse and we now have a worse roster.  He sat on his hands and let Mahommes and Watson go by while we had McCown.   Has drafted 2 OL in 4 years.  He is an absolute JOKE of a football mind.  How much worse cold he do to convince you?  He had a rebuild opportunity and paid lazy fat vets like Wilk, Revis etc...   trying to achieve the almighty 9-7 season. 

I don't think that we should keep Maccagnan or that he has done a good job, but I think the point Barry was making was that we had a sh*tty roster with a ton of cap space when he got here and if he leaves now, we'll have a sh*tty roster with a ton of cap space.  We went 10-6 in 2015.  I see no reason we can't go 10-6 next year beyond front office and coaching competence.  The idea is to get that record with the needle pointing up instead of down, unlike 2015.