Bowles and McCagnan have been at odds for years.

[Sperm Edwards]

1 minute ago, UntouchableCrew said:

The only thing that article really tells us is what we already knew -- that the moronic organizational structure Woody instituted was a failure from the start and never had a chance to work.

Now, as this disaster comes apart at the seams we naturally have finger pointing from both guys as they try to salvage their reputations and get hired at their next gig.

Moral of the story -- don't work for Woody Johnson. It will ruin you.

100% this.

The only solution for the team, though, is to fire both of them. Who wants to work under a GM who plants hit-pieces in the media, to trash his predecessor to save his own skin, after saddling him with the likes of QB of the Future Christian Hackenberg for 2 NFL seasons?

And yes this crap is why you hire a GM and right from the start let him pick his own HC. At this point it's too late for Maccagnan, which would have ended in failure anyway, but there's no rational sense in letting a career scout select a HC after screwing up so badly on selecting players.

[UntouchableCrew]

2 minutes ago, Sperm Edwards said:

100% this.

The only solution for the team, though, is to fire both of them. Who wants to work under a GM who plants hit-pieces in the media, to trash his predecessor to save his own skin, after saddling him with the likes of QB of the Future Christian Hackenberg for 2 NFL seasons?

And yes this crap is why you hire a GM and right from the start let him pick his own HC. At this point it's too late for Maccagnan, which would have ended in failure anyway, but there's no rational sense in letting a career scout select a HC after screwing up so badly on selecting players.

At this point I don't think it even matters who was more at fault or who screwed up what. The whole thing has been an unmitigated failure and expecting that stink to wash of Mac as he tries to hire a new coach seems naive. With a clean slate and a fresh start the Jets job could potentially be appealing (even if Woody is a terrible owner.) Similar to keeping Rex when we hired Idzik the baggage that comes with Mac is a lot to overcome when making a new hire.

[UnitedWhofans]

I think somebody got it right. The only way I think this structure possibly works is if they luck into somebody.

It's a horrible structure and it shows how flawed Woody is.

[UnitedWhofans]

2 minutes ago, UntouchableCrew said:

Similar to keeping Rex when we hired Idzik the baggage that comes with Mac is a lot to overcome when making a new hire

Well it depends on if they have previous connections to Maccagnan.

[Fantasy Island]

13 hours ago, johnnyjet said:

In my opinion here is the BIGGEST issue, the dysfunctional organizational order of the way things are handled. Why is God’s name are the coach and gm going to management. The only team to work this way is the jets and it doesn’t work. The coach is basically undermining the gm on a weekly basis. The proper chain of command goes players-coaches-head coach-Gm-owner.  Any other way makes no sense.  Give Mac the power to sink or swim with his guy. Period. And I don’t for one second believe the article is accurate about players selection.  Mannish is a guy who pissed in woodys ear and got us Todd instead of  Marrone, that in and of itself should’ve never happened. I’m not saying Marrone is better, but he’s not worse. Until the chain of command is defined we will have issues no matter who the coach is 

Mac can't draft therefore he has no use.

[JustInFudge]

1 hour ago, TeddEY said:

It's really not at all weird.

If you take the mental shortcut that the Jets flaws are all on the coach, the fix is simple.  Fire the coach, and we can instantly be a much better team simply by replacing him with a better coach.  This is a pretty pleasant outlook, because what it means is, next year there is hope.

The alternative is pretty inconvenient, because it means there's not an easy fix, and next year is very unlikely to give us what we want.  If Macc is to blame, and as a result, it's really that the roster is to blame, that's a long fix, and one that means we're nowhere near competitive, because not only do we stink now, we also have almost no young talent to build around.  That's a much harder reality to swallow.

It's not weird that people want to pretend things are much better/more fixable than they are.  It's aggressively human.

I find it totally weird that you have strong evidence telling you that both Mac and Bowles are terrible at their jobs but people want to point the finger and assign more blame to one or the other.  If either had shown some competence at one point, ok, I get it.  But when both have been a colossal failures, the exercise to point out who sucks worse is meaningless. 

If anyone thinks it's just coaching, they're wrong.  If anyone thinks finding the next great Head Coach is simple and a faster road to a turn around, they're wrong.

If anyone thinks it's just Mac, they're wrong.  If anyone thinking finding the next great GM is simple and a faster road to turn around, they're wrong.

The Jets are the worst team in the AFCE and a bottom 3 team in the league because both Mac and  Bowles are incompetent morons.  The only way to fix this is start over again.  Keeping one of the other, is moronic.   

I havent seen anyone claim this is an easy fix.

[JustInFudge]

1 hour ago, Creepy Lurker said:

Spot on! Denial and saying “everything will be ok” does not solve the issue at hand. It will be tough and take time but sticking your head in the sand solves nothing. 

Maybe I missed the part where people are saying everything will be ok.  

[Creepy Lurker]

Just now, JiF said:

Maybe I missed the part where people are saying everything will be ok.  

Some fans seem to have this attitude and it seems like our ownership sure does. 

[Bleedin Green]

2 hours ago, TeddEY said:

Indeed, the only viable defense of Macc is fabricating a narrative where Bowles is actually the GM too, and Macc doesn’t actually do anything - except, maybe, the 3-4 positive things over a 4 year span that have happened - those were Macc exclusively.

This is the part that I will never understand of this defense.  It's not Macc's fault because he apparently doesn't do his job.

The FA signings and draft picks have supposedly all been at the demand of Bowles' and his staff.

Recent Jets' trades have been credited to Heimerdinger - let's not forget, for those now trying to use the trade-up for Darnold as the one saving grace for Maccagnan, it was widely reported at the time that it was Heimerdinger who swung the deal with the Colts.

He doesn't negotiate the contracts (I don't remember who does, but it's some other front office person).

So... what exactly does he do?

[Creepy Lurker]

2 minutes ago, JiF said:

I find it totally weird that you have strong evidence telling you that both Mac and Bowles are terrible at their jobs but people want to point the finger and assign more blame to one or the other.  If either had shown some competence at one point, ok, I get it.  But when both have been a colossal failures, the exercise to point out who sucks worse is meaningless. 

If anyone thinks it's just coaching, they're wrong.  If anyone thinks finding the next great Head Coach is simple and a faster road to a turn around, they're wrong.

If anyone thinks it's just Mac, they're wrong.  If anyone thinking finding the next great GM is simple and a faster road to turn around, they're wrong.

The Jets are the worst team in the AFCE and a bottom 3 team in the league because both Mac and  Bowles are incompetent morons.  The only way to fix this is start over again.  Keeping one of the other, is moronic.   

I havent seen anyone claim this is an easy fix.

It’s most certainly not an easy fix even if we do the right thing. There is no silver bullet solution. There’s only restarting again and hoping that we luck into some quality candidates that can at least grow and get better at their jobs, not exponentially worse like Bowles and Mac. 

[JustInFudge]

1 minute ago, Creepy Lurker said:

Some fans seem to have this attitude and it seems like our ownership sure does. 

Well, those fans are very naive and ownership is part of the problem, not the solution. 

[Jetsfan80]

18 hours ago, Creepy Lurker said:

Time for things to get interesting in the media. I knew they would need a new scoop or angle. I said it earlier today out of coincidence.  

REPORT:  Jets fans begin advent calendar for firing both Mike Maccagnan and Todd Bowles. 

[Creepy Lurker]

Just now, JiF said:

Well, those fans are very naive and ownership is part of the problem, not the solution. 

Well yeah of course. Have you not noticed some of the stances here? It’s bizarre. The majority see what’s going on and that Mac is the problem which makes sense. Everyone is entitled to there opinion but when Mac is this terrible (like Idzik level), I don’t see how he can have any support. It’s just strange. 

[Jetsfan80]

18 minutes ago, Bleedin Green said:

This is the part that I will never understand of this defense.  It's not Macc's fault because he apparently doesn't do his job.

The FA signings and draft picks have supposedly all been at the demand of Bowles' and his staff.

Recent Jets' trades have been credited to Heimerdinger - let's not forget, for those now trying to use the trade-up for Darnold as the one saving grace for Maccagnan, it was widely reported at the time that it was Heimerdinger who swung the deal with the Colts.

He doesn't negotiate the contracts (I don't remember who does, but it's some other front office person).

So... what exactly does he do?

 

I also love when fans say Macc deserves credit for moving on quickly from his own failed signings/draft picks.  That's a good one. 

[Lot K Tailgaters]

The Jets should have learned after the Idzik Rex disaster that you need to let the GM hire his own coach.  

Woody doesn’t get it and never will.  

[Sperm Edwards]

21 minutes ago, JiF said:

I find it totally weird that you have strong evidence telling you that both Mac and Bowles are terrible at their jobs but people want to point the finger and assign more blame to one or the other.  If either had shown some competence at one point, ok, I get it.  But when both have been a colossal failures, the exercise to point out who sucks worse is meaningless. 

If anyone thinks it's just coaching, they're wrong.  If anyone thinks finding the next great Head Coach is simple and a faster road to a turn around, they're wrong.

If anyone thinks it's just Mac, they're wrong.  If anyone thinking finding the next great GM is simple and a faster road to turn around, they're wrong.

The Jets are the worst team in the AFCE and a bottom 3 team in the league because both Mac and  Bowles are incompetent morons.  The only way to fix this is start over again.  Keeping one of the other, is moronic.   

I havent seen anyone claim this is an easy fix.

I think the idea is those indirectly claiming "easy fix" by suggesting only one of the two should be fired, since it de facto suggests the Jets could have won a SB (or been consistent contenders) under Maccagnan, but for Todd Bowles being the HC. I see EY's comment as more of a backlash against "easy" answer/solution than tacit support for Bowles to remain on as HC. 

It's obvious they should both be fired. However if push came to shove I think a good HC with a terrible team would typically win fewer games than a really good team with Bowles as the HC. NFL history suggests this is the case. That doesn't therefore mean keep Bowles, so much as it means the roster personnel is typically more important than who the HC is. Regardless, neither is an asset (let alone being universally seen as such) so they should both get tossed to enable the best new hire.

[Bleedin Green]

16 minutes ago, Jetsfan80 said:

 

I also love when fans say Macc deserves credit for moving on quickly from his own failed signings/draft picks.  That's a good one. 

Wait a second... that's it, that's what he does!  He's the one who tells the players that they're cut!  I guess that's... something.

[Ex-Rex]

19 hours ago, Joe W. Namath said:

Regardless the personnel particulars — and it’s important to remember that sources will eagerly promote their own agendas at the expense of the other — having the two at odds serves no one’s best interest.

Whether they start with another clean slate or hire a coach Maccagnan trusts, the important part is having a clear organizational philosophy, and building a structure in which they work toward common goals.

The fault for this lies with the dysfunctional system set up by the egghead Woody Johnson, so let's start there. I find less fault in Mac than Bowles because Mac has given Bowles the players he wanted and they were not very good. ArDarius Stewart was a head scratcher from the start as was Chad Hansen. According to the article and the way the system was structured Bowles would have more power than Mac because if Mac didn't give Bowles the players he wanted Bowles simply wouldn't play them which was the case with Hackenberg who never played a down in a real game. Not that he was any good as he proved to not be NFL material but it shows that Mac was more or less under the thumb of Todd Bowles who will be fired for sure and rightfully so. I would give Mac a chance to hire HIS HC and give that a season or two before cleaning house once again if he fails.

[Pac]

3 hours ago, TeddEY said:

 

If you take the mental shortcut that the Jets flaws are all on the coach, the fix is simple.  Fire the coach, and we can instantly be a much better team simply by replacing him with a better coach.  This is a pretty pleasant outlook, because what it means is, next year there is hope.

 

Not all on the coach but I'd say about 90% is on him:

- He hasn't done anything with the players he's requested

- His teams constantly play flat, uninspired ball 

- He is consistently out schemed and out coached (and admits as much during press conferences)

- While his team claims to love him they don't care enough to put in the time to learn where they're supposed to be

- In the 4th quarter his team continually makes tactical or mental errors.  We should call them the Origmai Jets given how many times they've folded late in games during his tenure.

- He doesn't seem to have the respect of the team which can be a result of the way he handled guys from Fitz to Revis to Mo.  You can't refuse to bench under performing players and think the rest of the team doesn't notice.

- His track record in hiring coaches is atrocious

 

I really think the team

until he's gone...   I know I can't.

 

[ZachEY]

2 hours ago, JiF said:

I havent seen anyone claim this is an easy fix.

On a daily basis I read that we'd have 7ish wins right now with a better coaching staff.  That's a pretty strong indication that person thinks this is an easy fix.

[ZachEY]

6 minutes ago, Pac said:

Not all on the coach but I'd say about 90% is on him:

- He hasn't done anything with the players he's requested

- His teams constantly play flat, uninspired ball 

- He is consistently out schemed and out coached (and admits as much during press conferences)

- While his team claims to love him they don't care enough to put in the time to learn where they're supposed to be

- In the 4th quarter his team continually makes tactical or mental errors.  We should call them the Origmai Jets given how many times they've folded late in games during his tenure.

- He doesn't seem to have the respect of the team which can be a result of the way he handled guys from Fitz to Revis to Mo.  You can't refuse to bench under performing players and think the rest of the team doesn't notice.

- His track record in hiring coaches is atrocious

 

I really think the team

until he's gone...   I know I can't.

 

Well, I guess I can't wait until we're a playoff team without him next year.  Just like you predicted we were going to be this year.  Amirite?

In the interim, any actual evidence he's responsible for all the signings and draft picks you don't like, but he isn't responsible for the ones you do like?

 

[SpartanJet]

20 hours ago, Mike135 said:

Easy solution.  Fire Macc.  Make Bowles GM and coach.

There are not enough butt fumbles in the world to cover this.

[ZachEY]

1 hour ago, Sperm Edwards said:

I think the idea is those indirectly claiming "easy fix" by suggesting only one of the two should be fired, since it de facto suggests the Jets could have won a SB (or been consistent contenders) under Maccagnan, but for Todd Bowles being the HC. I see EY's comment as more of a backlash against "easy" answer/solution than tacit support for Bowles to remain on as HC. 

It's obvious they should both be fired. However if push came to shove I think a good HC with a terrible team would typically win fewer games than a really good team with Bowles as the HC. NFL history suggests this is the case. That doesn't therefore mean keep Bowles, so much as it means the roster personnel is typically more important than who the HC is. Regardless, neither is an asset (let alone being universally seen as such) so they should both get tossed to enable the best new hire.

I don't know why anyone would say I support Bowles remaining HC as I've stated, in no uncertain terms, that he and Macc should both go.

My comment is about the fact that it seems the majority of people think this is a good team being held back by a bad coach.  I'm simply stating I get that, because that's certainly more digestible than the alternative.

100% agree with the idea that I'd rather have a great roster with Bowles as HC than a terrible roster with Belichick et al. as HC.

[jgb]

Bowles ain't dumb. Clueless coach, yes, but stupid, no. He's doing everything he can to preserve his marketability as a DC next season by stuffing a dump down Macc's throat.

[SpartanJet]

17 hours ago, Jetster said:

Yes, I remember that one. If I was the owner in that draft room & a guy was in fact pounding the table for Russell Wilson & was overruled and then got to see what we missed?

They would all be fired EXCEPT the guy that was pounding the table for Wilson.

Except that guy banging on the table traded 2 first rounders for D-Fat one of the biggest Jets busts ever.  That says a lot since the Jets history is filled with big fails.

[Jetster]

23 minutes ago, SpartanJet said:

Except that guy banging on the table traded 2 first rounders for D-Fat one of the biggest Jets busts ever.  That says a lot since the Jets history is filled with big fails.

Well, then he should have been gone long ago if you didn't trust his opinion anymore..amirite?

[JustInFudge]

1 hour ago, TeddEY said:

On a daily basis I read that we'd have 7ish wins right now with a better coaching staff.  That's a pretty strong indication that person thinks this is an easy fix.

lol - that's your fault for responding to such lunacy.

That said, I do think a half halfway decent coach could have beaten Brock Osweiler and Matt Barkley...and probalby at least finishes out that Titans game.  In that scenario, is 5-6 wins "fixing" anything?  I dont think so.

[ZachEY]

9 minutes ago, JiF said:

lol - that's your fault for responding to such lunacy.

That said, I do think a half halfway decent coach could have beaten Brock Osweiler and Matt Barkley...and probalby at least finishes out that Titans game.  In that scenario, is 5-6 wins "fixing" anything?  I dont think so.

I really don't think the coach is to blame for the Titans.  We didn't score a single TD on offense, and in the 4th quarter we went 3 and out, 3 and out, 3 and out, 4 and out, 2 and INT.

You just can't win games when you can't get 1st downs on offense.  We are simply unable to do so, and come on, that's no playcalling, that's being overmatched at the LOS by just about everyone we face.  Well coached teams aren't creative in these situations, they run the football effectively.

[dbatesman]

1 hour ago, Pac said:

- He hasn't done anything with the players he's requested

Do you have a list of the players he requested? Feels like that would be helpful here

[Ex-Rex]

21 hours ago, mrcoops said:

It was definitely an arranged marriage.

Everything was set up for Mac to be the GM and Marrone, a guy Mac knows well and trusts, to be the coach. Then Woody got cold feet on Marrone after the Mehta slander campaign, and the rest is history.

Would Mac and Marrone have been a more successful pairing? Who knows? But at least they would have been on the same page from the start.

He may get his chance to hire him since the Jaguars are a dumpster fire and he is likely to get the axe. But also look at the talent on that team and Marrone has them at 4-9? Hmmm

[JustInFudge]

5 minutes ago, TeddEY said:

I really don't think the coach is to blame for the Titans.  We didn't score a single TD on offense, and in the 4th quarter we went 3 and out, 3 and out, 3 and out, 4 and out, 2 and INT.

You just can't win games when you can't get 1st downs on offense.  We are simply unable to do so, and come on, that's no playcalling, that's being overmatched at the LOS by just about everyone we face.  Well coached teams aren't creative in these situations, they run the football effectively.

So, it's not the coach or his staffs fault the offense cant move the ball and havent scored a TD in 7 quarters?  It's not the coaching staff's fault for being too scared to throw the ball on 3rd and 5 to ice the game in a lost season?  Simply unable to get 1st downs?  They had 15 first downs before the 4th quarter, what changed?  It's not on coaching to adjust?

Come'on now...

[Sperm Edwards]

1 hour ago, TeddEY said:

In the interim, any actual evidence he's responsible for all the signings and draft picks you don't like, but he isn't responsible for the ones you do like?

 

5 minutes ago, dbatesman said:

Do you have a list of the players he requested? Feels like that would be helpful here

I’ve got a pretty low opinion of bowlers as a HC but the convenient, selective scapegoating is bizarre to say the least. 

I've made less irrational arguments when love and/or hormones were involved.

[Rexorcism]

What a low bar to set. We don’t even know if Darnold will pan out and we are watching him get ruined before our eyes due to a poor offensive roster that Mac built. Do you not see this?
If you expectations are this low then surely you don’t expect the team to be good for a very long time. Right? And that’s ok with you? 

Nope, I don’t see it that way. I see an awful HC and his latest hire, Bates, an awful OC. If Bowles had kept Johnnie Morton I think Darnold wouldve had a much better rookie year. But I think its a blessing in disguise for us because it will cost him Bowles his job.

[Creepy Lurker]

1 hour ago, TeddEY said:

I don't know why anyone would say I support Bowles remaining HC as I've stated, in no uncertain terms, that he and Macc should both go.

My comment is about the fact that it seems the majority of people think this is a good team being held back by a bad coach.  I'm simply stating I get that, because that's certainly more digestible than the alternative.

100% agree with the idea that I'd rather have a great roster with Bowles as HC than a terrible roster with Belichick et al. as HC.

It’s definitely a bad roster being held even further back by a bad coach. Both Mac and Bowles got it comepletely wrong. They messed up so bad that it’s setting this team back years and going to screw up our window with a potential Franchise QB. This talent could be a 5 win team. 7 ABSOLUTE tops and probably be flukey like 2015.

If we crush the draft and add a good pass rusher/offensive weapon in FA AND get a better coach, then maybe we can be 7-9 or 8-8 but too many things have to go right for that to happen. It’s not realistic at all. We are going to be bad for a while and we should accept it. 

[Matt39]

Bowles still not naming Darnold the starter has to be a FU to the front office right?