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Maccagnan is demonstrably horrible


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1 hour ago, Smashmouth said:

So you're thinking they knew what they had in Hack during OTA's ? We all knew what type of Gamble Hack was and the Jets had zero intentions of playing him right off the bat and they said so. What the Jets ultimately paid Fitz was low end starter money and that's exactly what he deserved.

Even among his most ardent supporters who dumbfoundedly liked the pick, Hack was known to be a huge project. 

Fitz deserved nothing; he deserved to be a backup QB or emergency starter. 

A smart GM sees how many bad passes he threw that were simply dropped by the defense, plus all the improbable luck in scheduling from favorable weather to playing teams with so many significant injuries during our matchups, and the smart GM realizes this unbridled luck is not sustainable and not predictive of repeating future success.

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10 minutes ago, Sperm Edwards said:

Lol ok and what system furnishes his HC with four starting DTs (five in 2015, if you wanted to include Coples, whose 5th year option for 2016 he initially exercised)?

There is no system. He was playing BAP Rules All and was terrified of getting second-guessed on return value in trades. That’s why he held onto Mo even though he was dangling him as trade bait for 2 offseasons. That’s why... oh what’s the point. Some people just want to blame one to excuse another.

They are both terrible at their jobs. Neither has shown a particular aptitude for performing above the mean or the median (far from it). Keeping one for another season is a de facto extension through 2022 that neither has come close to earning. That is why both should be fired.

I don't  know or care to look up the makeup of the DL at the time you are referring to but the point of your post is to excuse one due to the others faults is is not a reasonable arguement in terms of Mac. That is exactly what you have done in this entire thread in terms of Bowels who is possibly the worst HC in the NFL over the last few decades. Some of us have brought up the other side of the coin and you basically ignore or ridicule  the points becuse you are throwing red meat to masses here who Hate Mac. Honestly I give you props on this post. You obviously  did a lot of research and possibly compiled it over more than just one day. It reads like term paper or essay, but it isn't  a complete depiction of the problems on this team and its certainly not why the team is this bad.

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I don’t even know how to respond to this. What flawed statistics and assumptions are you talking about?
If Bowles is really in charge, and Bowles never wants to entertain the options of taking offensive players in round 1, then why bother inquiring about the move-up and purportedly turn it down over a 3rd round pick (when other teams are forking over a trio of 1st rounders to move up fewer slots)? Why bother with the exercise if Bowles isn’t going to let him anyway?
Instead of twisting with imaginary conspiracy theories, how about just go with the more obvious: he inquired and shrunk into his shell over the asking price. This is a repeated pattern of his, and continued until he’d painted himself into a corner and was down to his final opportunity to acquire a serious FQB option, at which point he traded up to #3. He had zero choice in the matter, whether it was for two 2nd rounders, three 2nd rounders, or a pair of 1s if that was the asking price. All he had to do was outbid Buffalo, because if he didn’t then he’d risk losing out on all 4 of the top prospects by the Jets’ pick at #6. He had run out of time and had run out of chances to say, “Not to worry, there are good prospects coming out next year.” This is why he can get credit for moving up but I think people go overboard on the genius of a cornered animal doing what a cornered animal must do to defend itself.
OK I found a way to respond to it, lol.  


I did not say that Bowles controls controls what Mac does Mac is accountable for his actions what I said in that regard is that he is influenced by Bowles in the manner that he might have gone out and gotten guys based on what Bowles wanted, players that have traits what Bowles had used when he was in Arizona. This does not mean he exclusively went out and got the guys Bowles wanted but would suggest that Bowles could have had some input (speculation not fact)

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Another point in response to the idea behind certain picks / signings being at the behest of Bowles.  If that really is true, there are really only two possible situations that would lead to those moves being made:

1.  Maccagnan ultimately agreed with Bowles assessment, and therefore made the move.  In this case, Maccagnan was still wrong and apparently is no better of a scout than Bowles, which is serious indictment.

2.  Maccagnan actually disagreed with Bowles' evaluation, but simply did it anyway.  In this case, Maccagnan is not even doing his job, and is simply passing on his responsibilities to others and keeping quiet, despite what he knows/believes.  And some think this is... better?

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22 minutes ago, Sperm Edwards said:

Disagree on the “it was clear Johnson wanted...” — Johnson let Maccagnan do whatever he wanted in terms of player personnel, just like Idzik before him, Tannenbaum before Idzik, and Bradway before Tannenbaum. It’s amazing the lengths some will go to excuse his terrible, shortsighted acquisitions. 

It’s also convenient to take the position, as many do without realizing, that every win we got under Bowles we’d have had under a different coach, and then you can start from there as the zero-point and add up the extra wins after that. Except it doesn’t work that way, even though I think Bowles is a substandard HC like Maccagnan is a substandard GM.

Are the Jets performing to their greatest abilities all over the roster? Nobody believes that, just as nobody here is arguing Bowles is a good/great HC. But it’s not like that is the norm outside the Jets either, nor are they likely to find a HC that fills this unrealistic goal either.

Macc does not hit on all his 1st round picks. That is a myth. He’s hit on 2/3 of his top-6 overall 1st round picks, and two of the three are because the players were low demand due to their positions so others let them slide. Big whoop. Leo is not a “hit” considering his ultra-high draft slot and what that pick could have been parlayed into.

Also Lee is just meh, and the team is no worse without him right now. But hey, he looked really good when the terrible coaching staff that does nothing saw to it to prepare the team with regard to the signals and tendencies of their opponent, basically allowing the defense to know the Detroit offense plays. Other than that game, with that decided advantage that happens once in a blue moon, he’s been very meh. He’s not a hit just because he isn’t an overt Gholston-like bust.

The bold soooooo much, and I've made the same argument before.  It's extraordinarily flawed logic that doesn't work, thinking every single positive moment is somehow static, while the negatives are completely fluid.  That's simply not how any reality works, regardless of how bad Bowles is.

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It is inconceivable to me how the Johnson brothers have no idea just how awful Maacagnan has been.  Are they *that* delusional?  Christ.  The owner of the team I root for (and spend a lot of money on) and his puppet brother are just flat out stupid.  Isn't that grand?

A great big FCK YOOooou to both of the Johnsons if they keep Maccagnan on board.  I hate them.

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5 hours ago, CTM said:

Awfully conveinant how you leave out of your little "maths"  the A++++^99 he gets for the Darnold pick

Ha!

I know you're joking here, but BG didn't grade the 2018 draft.  But sure, if we give him a 4.5 for the Darnold pick, that still only gives him a 1.40 overall.  That moves him firmly into a D+.  Extension!!

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2 minutes ago, Miss Lonelyhearts said:

I’ll say it. I don’t think there’s sufficient evidence to jettison the null hypothesis that Bowles performs at the mean. This is not to say that he shouldn’t be fired (even if we gag vomit keep Maccagnan on), because he should be. But this notion that they are anywhere close to equally bad is an insane false equivalence.

Pretty much, but then I tend to think that coaching at the mean (if he even was) is going to lead to 8-8 seasons if we have a mean-level roster. I’d like to do better, since few 8-8 teams win superbowls.

But it’s also true, the Jets teams that won a low number games these past 2 seasons (like the one that won 10 in 2015) were initially predicted to win around that, perhaps even fewer. Once they won as many as they did then to some that became the new hindsight baseline, to which these fans conveniently then add would-be wins with his replacement without considering there might have been would-be losses; the latter being shrugged off as an impossibility despite unexpected/upset wins we came away with. 

The very notion that any Jets coach would/should have been serious superbowl contenders with starting QBs handed to Bowles - Fitz, Fitz Part Deux, McCown, and rookie Darnold - generally being protected by substandard OLs and mostly afforded substandard wepponz, is the stuff of some serious fantasy fopping. 

I’m of the opinion that a mean HC - or even a substandard one - can be highly successful if the roster is really loaded; however a top-notch HC will not be highly successful if the roster stinks. It is the trend in the NFL going back for quite some time, so history is my ally in this assessment. That’s also the opinion of many who see “fire Bowles” as the magical cure-all, yet those same people are quick to chime in, “Coach _____ merely won with the roster built by Coach ______.” Whether the blanks are filled in with Herm/Parcells, Rex/Mangini, Gruden/Dungy, Switzer/JimmyJ, or any other number of examples. They think it because they know good teams can win in spite of poor (or mean) coaching, while bad teams can and do get overmatched regardless of the supposed genius of the coaching staff. 

Also it makes the most sense. The alternative is that these fans believe, despite the absence of any coaching changes, that various teams annually go from 5 wins to 10 because they were coached twice as well in the latter year, or from 10 wins to 5 because they were only coached half as well in the latter. The stupidity of such presumptions defies any semblance of rational thought, yet unknowingly, this is still the effective argument. Hey, Belichick was a much better coach in 2007 than he was in 2008 when he won 6 fewer games #science #logic #statsdontlie. 

Hand Bowles a top-notch roster, and then see him go just 7-9 or so, and then you can say he’s the worst eva. IMO he hasn’t come close to earning the chance for us to find out, but Maccagnan hasn’t either.

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20 minutes ago, Dcat said:

It is inconceivable to me how the Johnson brothers have no idea just how awful Maacagnan has been.  Are they *that* delusional?  Christ.  The owner of the team I root for (and spend a lot of money on) and his puppet brother are just flat out stupid.  Isn't that grand?

A great big FCK YOOooou to both of the Johnsons if they keep Maccagnan on board.  I hate them.

This is actually the main problem. The ownership eother has their heads in the ground or are looking at some other metric that they find success in such as does the team have a healthy bottom line. 

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35 minutes ago, More Cowbell said:

I don't  know or care to look up the makeup of the DL at the time you are referring to but the point of your post is to excuse one due to the others faults is is not a reasonable arguement in terms of Mac. That is exactly what you have done in this entire thread in terms of Bowels who is possibly the worst HC in the NFL over the last few decades. Some of us have brought up the other side of the coin and you basically ignore or ridicule  the points becuse you are throwing red meat to masses here who Hate Mac. Honestly I give you props on this post. You obviously  did a lot of research and possibly compiled it over more than just one day. It reads like term paper or essay, but it isn't  a complete depiction of the problems on this team and its certainly not why the team is this bad.

You don’t know who was on the Jets’ roster in 2015 and you’re arguing this hard with me about it?

Wilkerson, Snacks, Richardson, Leo, Coples. Slower DT (if not NT) bodies, one and all, and not one who could . The notion that this was purely the wish list of a HC who wanted and preached speed on defense above all else, and never coached a DT-only DL before, is some real reaching IMO. 

Also no, I compiled it that morning. I type fast and know things. ;) 

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3 hours ago, TeddEY said:

Every team is - Macc has done it the most.  That’s not an opinion, it’s fact.

It doesn’t bother you that in 4 years, Macc has 0 second rounders and 2 3rd rounders who will play this weekend?

2 3rd rounders in 4 years is probably average but yes, the  2nd rounders is inexcusable.  Maybe that's why he traded all our next 3 year seconds because he sucks at it?:)

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18 minutes ago, Sperm Edwards said:

You don’t know who was on the Jets’ roster in 2015 and you’re arguing this hard with me about it?

Wilkerson, Snacks, Richardson, Leo, Coples. Slower DT (if not NT) bodies, one and all, and not one who could . The notion that this was purely the wish list of a HC who wanted and preached speed on defense above all else, and never coached a DT-only DL before, is some real reaching IMO. 

Also no, I compiled it that morning. I type fast and know things. ;) 

If you think all this time I have been arguing about the 2015 roster, then I don't  know whatelse to say.

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15 minutes ago, Sperm Edwards said:

You don’t know who was on the Jets’ roster in 2015 and you’re arguing this hard with me about it?

Wilkerson, Snacks, Richardson, Leo, Coples. Slower DT (if not NT) bodies, one and all, and not one who could . The notion that this was purely the wish list of a HC who wanted and preached speed on defense above all else, and never coached a DT-only DL before, is some real reaching IMO. 

Also no, I compiled it that morning. I type fast and know things. ;) 

4 1st round picks?  How can a casual fan be expected to know all those names?

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Just now, southtown24th said:

Now let's do an analysis of the same years for a team like...the Giants.

Guaranteed it's the same outcome, if not worse.

Go ahead, let's have it all you keyboard GMs.

So being bad is OK as long as he's only as bad as other bad GM's.  Got it.

Way to set the bar high. 

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6 minutes ago, Jetsfan80 said:

So being bad is OK as long as he's only as bad as other bad GM's.  Got it.

Way to set the bar high. 

Yes.  That's correct.  You compare yourself TO THE REST OF THE LEAGUE, you don't compare yourself to perfection...if that was the case, you all would be out of work.

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10 minutes ago, Jetsfan80 said:

So since no one has come up with a solid rebuttal to Sperm or BG, i think we can call it a day for the Maccagnan scorecard.

Drafting:  D or D+

Free Agency:  F

Contract Negotiations:  F

Easily getting out of contracts of bad players he signed:  A

Coffee Drinking:  A+

I think A is too high for getting out of contracts when you look at the Revis and Mo deals. 

An “A” grade would have to be based on a belief that someone else would have awarded them deals that were less team-friendly than the ones Maccagnan gave them. 

The only veterans that get 3 years fully guaranteed are FQBs and truly unique players still very much in their primes. There aren’t 5 of them in the entire league. Think Donald, Miller, Mack, Gurley. Actually looking now it’s not even that. It’s just Von Miller and Khalil Mack and that’s it.

Every other non-QB contract seems to represent a net gain in cap space by cutting them after year 2.

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25 minutes ago, southparkcpa said:

2 3rd rounders in 4 years is probably average but yes, the  2nd rounders is inexcusable.  Maybe that's why he traded all our next 3 year seconds because he sucks at it?:)

I bet more than 50% of 3rd rounders from the last few years are still around the league.  Don't have the data though.

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2 hours ago, #27TheDominator said:

He didn't deserve anything.  He sucked.  That move basically submarined the entire season, but because he "started" he "deserved" that amount?  He was benched for Smith and Petty both.  He didn't deserve a ******* thing. It was either Smith or Hackenberg.  Or worse, he went right up to the start of training camp without a QB on the roster.  You think that is what happened and it supposed to make us feel better about him? 

 

Dom in hindsight you can say whatever you like but the guy threw 31 TD's and ran for 6 more that does not suck no matter how much you may hate the guy he earned a spot ....Did he Implode ? Absolutely, but so did the entire team, the locker room, and the idiot HC had no way to stop the bleeding. 12 mil sounds like a lot but it was minimal starter money no matter how much we argue the point and every single commentator and analyst said the Jets needed to bring back Fitz

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3 minutes ago, southtown24th said:

Now let's do an analysis of the same years for a team like...the Giants.

Guaranteed it's the same outcome, if not worse.

Go ahead, let's have it all you keyboard GMs.

Yes, pick a team who's GM was fired for just cause and compare.  

I guess we can only use 2015-2017 because the jury is out on 2018, and that excludes the Odell Beckham Jr. pick which trumps anything Maccagnan has done.  Only two players picked by Reese in that span are out of the league - Mykkele Thompson an injury prone DB that lasted until last summer and Odighizuma the freak DE from UCLA with issues.  Their 3rd and 5th from 2015.  In that span they drafted Collins, Shepherd, Tomlinson and Engram.  Jerrell Adams, their 2016 6th certainly seems better than Leggett, Bobby Hart a 7th from '15 starts for the Bengals.  The Giants drafted horribly over this period, with stiffs like Flowers and Apple, Bad as Apple was, he still net them back a 2019 4th and 2020 7th.  Free agents included Snacks (who they got back a 5th), Janoris Jenkins and Olivier Vernon.  Remember, this man was fired and nobody is mourning after 2 super bowl wins. 

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3 minutes ago, Smashmouth said:

Dom in hindsight you can say whatever you like but the guy threw 31 TD's and ran for 6 more that does not suck no matter how much you may hate the guy he earned a spot ....Did he Implode ? Absolutely, but so did the entire team, the locker room, and the idiot HC had no way to stop the bleeding. 12 mil sounds like a lot but it was minimal starter money no matter how much we argue the point and every single commentator and analyst said the Jets needed to bring back Fitz

If he earned the spot, you pay him in March.  You don't sign your own free agents back in (almost) August. 

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2 hours ago, Bleedin Green said:

There is no "hate" for safeties, and none of those players you mentioned went that high specifically because of the fact that they are indeed safeties.  Even in hindsight it's not a guarantee they would have been taken that high, as the rest of their respective drafts' hits at more premium positions would be flying up the board.  Besides, I gave the pick a friggin B, so it's hardly negative, just not willing to say it was an amazing choice that couldn't possibly be topped either.

A player's position still has meaning.  Sebastian Janikowski has been a pro bowler / all pro, care to argue what a good first round pick he was for the Raiders?  Of course it's an extreme example (yes, they are obviously worlds apart), but the point is you can't just pretend a player's position is meaningless to their value.  Consider that the last time a safety was drafted in the top 6 goes all the way back to 2010 (Eric Berry).  The only time a safety even went top 10 since then was Mark Barron in 2012 (who has since been moved to LB btw).  It's not a coincidence that the entire league has hardly made this move for the past decade, and that the positions taken in those slots over those years are unbelievably lopsided (with an overwhelming majority of the picks being at QB, OT, and pass rusher).  That obviously doesn't mean there aren't very talented players at the safety position, but it's a question of what cost they're worth, and the majority of the league seems to believe less than what the Jets gave up.

Bleedin I can see what you're saying but I can say Adams was thought to be (in reference to Berry and Barron) a once every ten year safety and that would put him right where he needed to be since most had him as a top 5 pick in that draft. I think a great safety can be a catalyst for a Defense creating pressure, turnovers and covering top TE's a Hybrid LB type. Adams seems to be able to excel at every level of the defense he's played.

Besides Safeties and who should be drafted and back to the main topic where I think Macc had had subpar drafts for sure but so has every other GM in the NFL. Maybe he's due for a good one ... That's a terrible way to look at things but we have all seen some GM's have incredible drafts to start off then totally sh*t the bed moving forward. It's certainly not an exact science but I feel strongly our HC has way too much influence ... Obviously it's not provable and JMO but since Woody put them both on the same level commenting on it in an interview I think we can conclude Bowles may have more say than we think since he likes Secondary players, his so called area of expertise (if we can say he has any expertise at all) and we seem to be drafting them and loading the team with them more than maybe we should be. The Idiot Jets did after all seem to think it was a better Idea to hire the HC before the GM and not include said GM in the process.

If I had to pick which one had to go it would be Todd Bowles 100 out of 100 times I didn't even like him when we won 10 games his first year due to all the bone headed mistakes the guy made from game to game with little to no adjustments

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16 minutes ago, #27TheDominator said:

If he earned the spot, you pay him in March.  You don't sign your own free agents back in (almost) August. 

I agree I had no idea why that was dragged out like it was but behind closed doors we have no clue on what was being negotiated and we probably never will

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37 minutes ago, Sperm Edwards said:

I think A is too high for getting out of contracts when you look at the Revis and Mo deals. 

An “A” grade would have to be based on a belief that someone else would have awarded them deals that were less team-friendly than the ones Maccagnan gave them. 

The only veterans that get 3 years fully guaranteed are FQBs and truly unique players still very much in their primes. There aren’t 5 of them in the entire league. Think Donald, Miller, Mack, Gurley. Actually looking now it’s not even that. It’s just Von Miller and Khalil Mack and that’s it.

Every other non-QB contract seems to represent a net gain in cap space by cutting them after year 2.

The Mo Deal vs keeping Harrison is one of those things that might have very well come down to the coach. I was screaming for Snacks the Jets extended Mo and it was dreadfully stupid and I got called an idiot on these very boards. If it was Macc he was dead wrong but I'm sure more than Just Macc weighed in on that decision.

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1 minute ago, Jetsfan80 said:

Cool.  So let's just keep the sh*tty employees around forever then. 

yup.

 

They've been here for 50 years...now that you joined this board and you are voicing your concerns into a giant, black abyss known as the internet, now THAT'S when everything is going to change.  You don't actually think you have a say in how things go, do you?  Are you a grown man?  Are you that delusional?

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17 minutes ago, southtown24th said:

We have done so since 1969.  2019 is not going to be any different...

The Jets built a pretty damn good team loaded with talent in the late 70's early 80's 100 % via the draft. 

We had ( i know Im missing a few) 

Klecko

Salaam 

Powell

Fields

Ward 

Walker 

Mcneil

Lyons 

Gastineau

Toon

Rassmussen

Mehl

Shuler

Hector

Along with that we also had one of the better ST units in the NFL as well.

All those guys were on the same team and most of them were pro bowlers at some point .... Our 80's team was loaded with talent yet Endured a buffoon at HC in Joe Freakin Walton. Any other HC that team would have won at least 1 SB I believe the guy in charge of those drafts was Jim Kensil. Imagine if we were the guys that hired Bill Walsh

 

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7 minutes ago, Smashmouth said:

 

All those guys were on the same team and most of them were pro bowlers at some point .... Our 80's team was loaded with talent yet Endured a buffoon at HC in Joe Freakin Walton. Any other HC that team would have won at least 1 SB I believe the guy in charge of those drafts was Jim Kensil. Imagine if we were the guys that hired Bill Walsh

 

Joe Walton was GREAT!!  Just a late bloomer. He took Div III Robert Morris University to many national championships!!  :)

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It is very rare to get a guy who is so totally incompetent and weak that both is draft record and his fa record stink.  To go along with that his basic plan on how to build a team stinks.  "Use your high picks on positions that are easy to fill and really do not help you win in this league."

The truth hurts but John Idzik, strictly from  team building concept and strategist was way better than mac.  He doomed himself with his horrible drafting and his inability to think quickly and to move on opportunities but his basic methods were sound.

He shed bad contracts and got value for some guys he was not going to pay (revis) he acquired comp picks and set things up for franchise  changing year or so.  Of course he promptly had one of the worst drafts ever and was justifiably fired.  But his methodology was good.

My big question is "When are we going to get someone that can actually draft good players."   The last really  goo draft this team has was the dbrik mangold draft.

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