Maccagnan is demonstrably horrible

[Sperm Edwards]

2 hours ago, Smashmouth said:

The Mo Deal vs keeping Harrison is one of those things that might have very well come down to the coach. I was screaming for Snacks the Jets extended Mo and it was dreadfully stupid and I got called an idiot on these very boards. If it was Macc he was dead wrong but I'm sure more than Just Macc weighed in on that decision.

I think you're oversimplifying that the choice was simply to extend one or the other in 2016.  The Jets didn't extend Mo until 4 months after he was already on the Giants. They also had cap issues, thanks to Big Macc overspending in 2015, mostly on players with no future here.

The time to extend Snacks was in 2015 not 2016, as I said at the start of this topic. By the time Feb 2016 came around, Maccagnan still hadn't reached an agreement on an extension with either one, and both were about to become UFAs a couple weeks later. There was no incentive for either to re-sign with the Jets after he'd done the time to earn UFA status, unless tagged, so only a fool would bypass highest-bidder offers at that stage (unless the Jets were paying more than he thought he'd get, like he did with Brian Winters a year later).

Anyway once the season had ended, with FA beginning in a couple weeks, all the Jets had left to keep either one was the franchise tag. Well you can only tag one player, and as badly as I wanted to keep Snacks also, even I wouldn't advocate tagging a mostly 2-down NT at $12MM or whatever it was back then. The $9MM+ per year deal Harrison got from the Giants was wayyyyy more than he was expected to get from anyone, but the open market commonly overpays players (hence the wise move is to extend players before reaching this point).

Anyway nobody could possibly rationalize franchise tagging Snacks. That's for Aaron Donald and Fletcher Cox money DTs. 

[Villain The Foe]

3 minutes ago, Sperm Edwards said:

I think you're oversimplifying that the choice was simply to extend one or the other in 2016.  The Jets didn't extend Mo until 4 months after he was already on the Giants.

The time to extend Snacks was in 2015 not 2016, as I said at the start of this topic. By the time Feb 2016 came around, Maccagnan still hadn't reached an agreement on an extension with either one, and both were about to become UFAs a couple weeks later. There was no incentive for either to re-sign with the Jets after he'd done the time to earn UFA status, unless tagged, so only a fool would bypass highest-bidder offers at that stage (unless the Jets were paying more than he thought he'd get, like he did with Brian Winters a year later).

Anyway once the season had ended, with FA beginning in a couple weeks, all the Jets had left to keep either one was the franchise tag. Well you can only tag one player, and as badly as I wanted to keep Snacks also, even I wouldn't advocate tagging a mostly 2-down NT at $12MM or whatever it was back then. The $9MM+ per year deal Harrison got from the Giants was wayyyyy more than he was expected to get from anyone, but the open market commonly overpays players (hence the wise move is to extend players before reaching this point).

Anyway nobody could possibly rationalize franchise tagging Snacks. That's for Aaron Donald and Fletcher Cox money DTs. 

Exactly, and what's worse is that in 2015 when Macc decided to draft Leo Williams, all of us at home thought that Mo Wilk was trade bait during the draft. Well not only did that clown not trade Mo, but he didnt extend Snacks or Mo forcing the situation the end up the way it did. 

Maccagnan showed complete incompetence for the GM position and it's clear that he's been underwater for years. The problem is, Woody is such a bad owner that he doesnt quite recognize bad GM work unless airplanes fly over practice fields with signs that clearly say "Your GM Sucks"

[Jetster]

This is the way I view this entire thread: 

If Bowles is kept & Macc is fired, I swear I'm gonna have to quit the Jets for 2019 because I know with that dunderhead Bowles staring blankly into space on the sideline, this team has zero chance of success.

If they fire Bowles & bring in a new Coaching staff & keep Macc I'm still excited as hell for the offseason free agency & draft.

If they are both given the ol HEAVE HO I won't be crying about it.

[UnitedWhofans]

That’s another reason for the Love Macc gets from the media. Outside of the Hackenberg pick, there really hasn’t been a draft pick that he was blasted for at the time by the media.

Leo Williams- Kiper/Mcshay loved it

Jamal Adams- Kiper/McShay loved it erc.

and while questions can be made to the worthy of their opinions, it moves the needle. Just like Kiper saying “The Jets have no idea what the Draft is all about”. They move the needle 

[UnitedWhofans]

1 minute ago, Jetster said:

This is the way I view this entire thread: 

If Bowles is kept & Macc is fired, I swear I'm gonna have to quit the Jets for 2019 because I know with that dunderhead Bowles staring blankly into space on the sideline, this team has zero chance of success.

If they fire Bowles & bring in a new Coaching staff & keep Macc I'm still excited as hell for the offseason free agency & draft.

If they are both given the ol HEAVE HO I won't be crying about it.

That’s basically how I see it. There’s really no choice. If there is resignation of defeat in the fanbase then people shouldn’t be in the fanbase. 

[dbatesman]

2 hours ago, southtown24th said:

yup.

 

They've been here for 50 years...now that you joined this board and you are voicing your concerns into a giant, black abyss known as the internet, now THAT'S when everything is going to change.  You don't actually think you have a say in how things go, do you?  Are you a grown man?  Are you that delusional?

Didn’t you make a thread about Maccagnan being great like two hours ago

[UnitedWhofans]

Hell even in FA, it’s hard for the media to second guess Macc because heybwould be second guessing themselves. How many of them supported the signing of Trumaine Johnson or Darrelle Revis to begin with? How many of them wanted Wilkerson extended? Etc. Etc. 

[Jetster]

1 minute ago, UnitedWhofans said:

That’s basically how I see it. There’s really no choice. If there is resignation of defeat in the fanbase then people shouldn’t be in the fanbase. 

If its McCarthy, or Jim Harbaugh or Carmichael, even Toub, they all come from offensive teams. They aren't stupid, my god, they'll watch tape of Darnold, smile, and say lets surround this kid with an oline & playmakers! 

No more safeties or DTs will be taken at the top of the draft going forward.

[southtown24th]

5 minutes ago, dbatesman said:

Didn’t you make a thread about Maccagnan being great like two hours ago

nope

[#27TheDominator]

21 minutes ago, Sperm Edwards said:

I think you're oversimplifying that the choice was simply to extend one or the other in 2016.  The Jets didn't extend Mo until 4 months after he was already on the Giants. They also had cap issues, thanks to Big Macc overspending in 2015, mostly on players with no future here.

The time to extend Snacks was in 2015 not 2016, as I said at the start of this topic. By the time Feb 2016 came around, Maccagnan still hadn't reached an agreement on an extension with either one, and both were about to become UFAs a couple weeks later. There was no incentive for either to re-sign with the Jets after he'd done the time to earn UFA status, unless tagged, so only a fool would bypass highest-bidder offers at that stage (unless the Jets were paying more than he thought he'd get, like he did with Brian Winters a year later).

Anyway once the season had ended, with FA beginning in a couple weeks, all the Jets had left to keep either one was the franchise tag. Well you can only tag one player, and as badly as I wanted to keep Snacks also, even I wouldn't advocate tagging a mostly 2-down NT at $12MM or whatever it was back then. The $9MM+ per year deal Harrison got from the Giants was wayyyyy more than he was expected to get from anyone, but the open market commonly overpays players (hence the wise move is to extend players before reaching this point).

Anyway nobody could possibly rationalize franchise tagging Snacks. That's for Aaron Donald and Fletcher Cox money DTs. 

Exactly.  The time to extend guys is before the RFA tag or 5th year option.  Sometimes you won't be able to do it, but if you never do it indicates either a philosophical or psychological problem.

[JustInFudge]

12 minutes ago, UnitedWhofans said:

Hell even in FA, it’s hard for the media to second guess Macc because heybwould be second guessing themselves. How many of them supported the signing of Trumaine Johnson or Darrelle Revis to begin with? How many of them wanted Wilkerson extended? Etc. Etc. 

As long as the media supported 2 moves over 4 years by Mac in Free Agency, then everything is fine in Jets land when you really think about it.

 

 

[More Cowbell]

3 hours ago, Jetsfan80 said:

So since no one has come up with a solid rebuttal to Sperm or BG, i think we can call it a day for the Maccagnan scorecard.

• Drafting:  D or D+
• Free Agency:  F
• Contract Negotiations:  F
• Easily getting out of contracts of bad players he signed:  A
• Coffee Drinking:  A+

Who made you judge and jury of this thread?

[Smashmouth]

50 minutes ago, Sperm Edwards said:

I think you're oversimplifying that the choice was simply to extend one or the other in 2016.  The Jets didn't extend Mo until 4 months after he was already on the Giants. They also had cap issues, thanks to Big Macc overspending in 2015, mostly on players with no future here.

The time to extend Snacks was in 2015 not 2016, as I said at the start of this topic. By the time Feb 2016 came around, Maccagnan still hadn't reached an agreement on an extension with either one, and both were about to become UFAs a couple weeks later. There was no incentive for either to re-sign with the Jets after he'd done the time to earn UFA status, unless tagged, so only a fool would bypass highest-bidder offers at that stage (unless the Jets were paying more than he thought he'd get, like he did with Brian Winters a year later).

Anyway once the season had ended, with FA beginning in a couple weeks, all the Jets had left to keep either one was the franchise tag. Well you can only tag one player, and as badly as I wanted to keep Snacks also, even I wouldn't advocate tagging a mostly 2-down NT at $12MM or whatever it was back then. The $9MM+ per year deal Harrison got from the Giants was wayyyyy more than he was expected to get from anyone, but the open market commonly overpays players (hence the wise move is to extend players before reaching this point).

Anyway nobody could possibly rationalize franchise tagging Snacks. That's for Aaron Donald and Fletcher Cox money DTs. 

actually I was not trying to put a timeline like 2016 on it I wanted Snacks to stay and Mo to go how ever that needed to happen

[Sperm Edwards]

45 minutes ago, #27TheDominator said:

Exactly.  The time to extend guys is before the RFA tag or 5th year option.  Sometimes you won't be able to do it, but if you never do it indicates either a philosophical or psychological problem.

Truth is if they were going to extend Leo the time to do that was before this season (his salary is only $3MM this year), not next year when he’s already locked in at $14MM, making it the new baseline on an extension.

I think if it is a philosophical problem, it stems from a psychological one. 

[rangerous]

7 minutes ago, Sperm Edwards said:

Truth is if they were going to extend Leo the time to do that was before this season (his salary is only $3MM this year), not next year when he’s already locked in at $14MM, making it the new baseline on an extension.

I think if it is a philosophical problem, it stems from a psychological one. 

boy, whatever did mac do to you?

[Sperm Edwards]

19 minutes ago, Smashmouth said:

actually I was not trying to put a timeline like 2016 on it I wanted Snacks to stay and Mo to go how ever that needed to happen

That’s fair. Just that the team wasn’t in a Snacks-or-Mo situation in 2016. I mean strictly speaking they were, but in practical terms if they just let Mo become a FA all they’d get in return was the possibility of a 3rd round comp pick a year later. By tagging him he had presumably the trade value of at least a mid-2nd in the current year. So being practical, the only real way to do that was to bang out a deal with Snacks quickly and tag Mo to trade him some weeks later in a move-up. I don’t know if they had the space to carry both at the time, but they could have moved some things around to make it all fit until Mo was moved and his $16MM FT removed from the cap.

Or more simply, just freaking extend Snacks while he was making $2MM on the RFA tag, after having made nothing but peanuts before that, with no long term security beyond that should he get seriously hurt (or just have a down season). Instead he chose to take the money and run on that, keep Snacks for that low amount so he could use an extra few million to sign Cromartie or whatever other dumbass move he made.

I think part of the Jarvis Jenkins signing was that he expected to be able to move Mo, and wanted to have a much cheaper 3rd 34DE take his place. Of course he ended up keeping all of them: Leo, Mo, Sheldon, and signed Jenkins. But Snacks he lets go of, so we could add McLendon.

4 More Years!!

[Sperm Edwards]

2 minutes ago, rangerous said:

boy, whatever did mac do to you?

He sucked. After what’s closing in on 40 years following this team I’m less patient and tolerant with someone learning on the job, and failing while doing it. A year or two? Fine. He’s entering year 5, and in terms of psychology he is still repeating the same patterns he exhibited in year 1.

[Jetsfan80]

37 minutes ago, More Cowbell said:

Who made you judge and jury of this thread?

Come up with a rebuttal. 

[#27TheDominator]

13 minutes ago, Sperm Edwards said:

Truth is if they were going to extend Leo the time to do that was before this season (his salary is only $3MM this year), not next year when he’s already locked in at $14MM, making it the new baseline on an extension.

I think if it is a philosophical problem, it stems from a psychological one. 

Agreed.  I like Williams.  I think he is a quality NFL player.  OTOH, I do not intend to pay him $14M for 2019.  They need to move him or lock him up for a few more years to make that worthwhile, preferably at a lower per year figure. 

[Bleedin Green]

1 hour ago, #27TheDominator said:

Exactly.  The time to extend guys is before the RFA tag or 5th year option.  Sometimes you won't be able to do it, but if you never do it indicates either a philosophical or psychological problem.

Excellent point.  It's fair to say that this can't always be done, and no ones argument is that it's reasonably expected to go that way, but for it to literally never being done even once puts unquestionable blame at the feet of the person responsible for making that happen.

[Smashmouth]

Honestly though how many up and coming players like Snacks was are going to agree to an extension before they have the chance to test FA or get what they feel is a fair extension. if Im a player and Im progressing each year am I going to agree to a low ball extension or am I going to try and play my ass off the year before I get FA ? How do we know whos being offered what and at what time ? Players and especially agents are not stupid.

57 minutes ago, Sperm Edwards said:

Truth is if they were going to extend Leo the time to do that was before this season (his salary is only $3MM this year), not next year when he’s already locked in at $14MM, making it the new baseline on an extension.

I think if it is a philosophical problem, it stems from a psychological one. 

 

42 minutes ago, #27TheDominator said:

Agreed.  I like Williams.  I think he is a quality NFL player.  OTOH, I do not intend to pay him $14M for 2019.  They need to move him or lock him up for a few more years to make that worthwhile, preferably at a lower per year figure. 

 

14 minutes ago, Bleedin Green said:

Excellent point.  It's fair to say that this can't always be done, and no ones argument is that it's reasonably expected to go that way, but for it to literally never being done even once puts unquestionable blame at the feet of the person responsible for making that happen.

 

[Sperm Edwards]

3 minutes ago, Smashmouth said:

Honestly though how many up and coming players like Snacks was are going to agree to an extension before they have the chance to test FA or get what they feel is a fair extension. if Im a player and Im progressing each year am I going to agree to a low ball extension or am I going to try and play my ass off the year before I get FA ? How do we know whos being offered what and at what time ? Players and especially agents are not stupid.

 

 

 

Lots of players do. In fact it is the norm. They all want extensions with guaranteed money as soon as possible. Bell just sat out the whole season rather than keep up getting tagged year after year, even though he’d potentially make more that way.

It’s only fans - those with nothing to lose - that suggest they want to wait to increase their value. Only players coming off down seasons want to enter prove-it years.

[Philc1]

5 hours ago, southtown24th said:

Macc deserves an extension.

If you’re a Patriots, Dolphins or Bills fan

[Smashmouth]

As an example lets use Jenkins a player that seems to be getting better each year. You as a GM approach him and make an offer. Jenkins agent says nah we'll wait till next year when my client gets double digit sacks then we can deal. Early extensions are not for star players or even up and coming player's I don;t think this is as easy as you guys think

[Philc1]

46 minutes ago, #27TheDominator said:

Agreed.  I like Williams.  I think he is a quality NFL player.  OTOH, I do not intend to pay him $14M for 2019.  They need to move him or lock him up for a few more years to make that worthwhile, preferably at a lower per year figure. 

Agree.  We HAVE to trade Leo if anything just to stop Mac from giving him a $100 million extension 

[Smashmouth]

1 minute ago, Sperm Edwards said:

Lots of players do. In fact it is the norm. They all want extensions with guaranteed money as soon as possible. Bell just sat out the whole season rather than keep up getting tagged year after year, even though he’d potentially make more that way.

It’s only fans - those with nothing to lose - that suggest they want to wait to increase their value. Only players coming off down seasons want to enter prove-it years.

I'm not so sure about that Sperm Sure they want money but if they have a breakout year that money can literally double. Once again with Jenkins what happens if he feels he can pop out a 15 sack year in year 4 you think he's going to sign for some low ball number ?  What if he winds up with 10 this year ?

[Smashmouth]

4 minutes ago, Sperm Edwards said:

Lots of players do. In fact it is the norm. They all want extensions with guaranteed money as soon as possible. Bell just sat out the whole season rather than keep up getting tagged year after year, even though he’d potentially make more that way.

It’s only fans - those with nothing to lose - that suggest they want to wait to increase their value. Only players coming off down seasons want to enter prove-it years.

Well in the case of Leo I think we let him walk. Hes not proven to be anything special and even if he has a good year leading up to FA I say we let him walk or trade him which wont bring much anyhow

[More Cowbell]

54 minutes ago, Jetsfan80 said:

Come up with a rebuttal. 

For what? You already made up your mind. If I want to talk to a wall I'll have a conversation with my youngest daughter. 

[#27TheDominator]

8 minutes ago, Smashmouth said:

Honestly though how many up and coming players like Snacks was are going to agree to an extension before they have the chance to test FA or get what they feel is a fair extension. if Im a player and Im progressing each year am I going to agree to a low ball extension or am I going to try and play my ass off the year before I get FA ? How do we know whos being offered what and at what time ? Players and especially agents are not stupid.

It's not a low ball extension and will all the cap space we have, it was time to do it.  A guy like Anderson will see $3M this year and then try to hammer out a FA deal.  Snacks was looking at a $2M pay day.  If you offered them say 3@$6M per they might bite.  They'd want the guarantee (say $10-12M) that they wouldn't see for over a year. Plenty, if not most would lean towards something like that. Antonio Brown signed for 5 for $42.5 when Calvin Johnson was going 8 for $130M and Fitzgerald was at 8@$120M.  Those guys were more established, but part of it was that Brown was locked up much cheaper, so he was getting money for those first couple of years he wouldn't have seen.

[More Cowbell]

7 minutes ago, Philc1 said:

Agree.  We HAVE to trade Leo if anything just to stop Mac from giving him a $100 million extension 

I think with a better coach and better defensive scheme, Williams could be a monster. I know lately people have complained about him taking plays off but I have seen him push 320 lb OL 4 or 5 steps backwards. He needs a coach that is going to push his buttons. 

[Bleedin Green]

8 minutes ago, Smashmouth said:

As an example lets use Jenkins a player that seems to be getting better each year. You as a GM approach him and make an offer. Jenkins agent says nah we'll wait till next year when my client gets double digit sacks then we can deal. Early extensions are not for star players or even up and coming player's I don;t think this is as easy as you guys think

It's possible that SOME take that position, but there is mounds of evidence to show a significant number of players don't refuse to negotiate early. Are we really supposed to believe that players league wide are willing to do this, but it just so happens not one single Jets player would ever consider it, so Mccagnan is just a poor innocent victim of it all? The argument isn't that he should've worked out early deals with every player, it's that he's done it for absolutely NONE in his entire time here, which is ridiculous. 

[#27TheDominator]

7 minutes ago, Smashmouth said:

I'm not so sure about that Sperm Sure they want money but if they have a breakout year that money can literally double. Once again with Jenkins what happens if he feels he can pop out a 15 sack year in year 4 you think he's going to sign for some low ball number ?  What if he winds up with 10 this year ?

Bigger difference to a person:  $700K to $3M or $3M to $6M?  When you are getting into the multi-millions much of that money is cake.  When you are dealing with a jump from a few hundred grand to the millions it makes a bigger difference in lifestyle and security.  The money comes sooner, as does the guarantee.  Anybody talking investments will tell you how much more a dollar today is worth than a dollar tomorrow. Especially when that dollar tomorrow isn't guaranteed.

[Philc1]

4 minutes ago, More Cowbell said:

I think with a better coach and better defensive scheme, Williams could be a monster. I know lately people have complained about him taking plays off but I have seen him push 320 lb OL 4 or 5 steps backwards. He needs a coach that is going to push his buttons. 

Leo has always been kinda meh.  I’d rather trade him get another pick and sign Sheldon Richardson 

[Sperm Edwards]

12 minutes ago, Smashmouth said:

I'm not so sure about that Sperm Sure they want money but if they have a breakout year that money can literally double. Once again with Jenkins what happens if he feels he can pop out a 15 sack year in year 4 you think he's going to sign for some low ball number ?  What if he winds up with 10 this year ?

What do all players want? They want the security of a long term deal. They all hate the franchise tag or the RFA tag. They all hate getting tagged because they all want long term deals with more guaranteed cash than they’ll make in just the upcoming season, just in case there are no more seasons beyond that. Many/most of them have families to think of as well. It’s easy for you to say because you’re not assuming that risk. Not so with the players.

Agents don’t push their clients to wait until next year either. If they do that then they’re risking the client leaving after having a competing agent whisper into their ear about how little they’re making and taking unnecessary risks with his lifetime of financial security. Or just as bad, the client gets badly injured and they end up with nothing (and words gets around that the agent effed up and can affect signing additional players).

It’s incredibly unsusual for a player to want to bet on himself to stay healthy year after year so he can max out. Typically the only player who does that is a player who’s already cashed in, or like I mentioned a player coming off a down season.

Case in point: Robby Anderson wants a long term deal right now, and 2019 is the first year he’s eligible for an extension. He’s coming off what’s easily his worst season. According to you he does not want an extension because he could/would/should make more if he waits a year.

I’m telling you, this is what the players want. You may not be so sure but I know it as well as I know I only have 23 chromosomes.

[UnitedWhofans]

2 hours ago, JiF said:

As long as the media supported 2 moves over 4 years by Mac in Free Agency, then everything is fine in Jets land when you really think about it.

 

I could have listed more but I’m not as driven as @Sperm Edwards is when it comes to this subject.

i don’t use this in support of Macc. I use it to see how the media winds blow because one thing we know is that The brothers are influenced by the media