Maccagnan is demonstrably horrible

[VinnyT16]

3 minutes ago, joenamathwouldn'tcry said:

No. If you don't sign ANYONE you'd probably still go 5-11 or 4-12 .  Violla!

The Jets in 2015 and the Giants in 2016 tried to build a team in free agency. It worked for a year, but fell apart after that. 

The reason why these teams had so much cap space is because of poor drafting. 

[joenamathwouldn'tcry]

3 hours ago, peebag said:

Just curious - is there any other NFL team that has an org structure similar to what the Jets have that works?

How about is there any other PROFESSIONAL ORGANIZATION, sports or otherwise...….

[BigO]

22 minutes ago, docdhc said:

I have to admit I was on the fence about Mac but this is a very scathing review that is hard to argue with.  

Sperm’s ‘review’ was an abridged one at that. He didn’t even go into the drafts Mac has been in charge of. Talk about futility at its finest. 

[joenamathwouldn'tcry]

2 minutes ago, VinnyT16 said:

The Jets in 2015 and the Giants in 2016 tried to build a team in free agency. It worked for a year, but fell apart after that. 

The reason why these teams had so much cap space is because of poor drafting. 

It did not work for the Jets in 2015.  That team {10-6} was a mirage, not a serious contender and could have just as easily been 6-10

[VinnyT16]

2 minutes ago, BigO said:

Sperm’s ‘review’ was an abridged one at that. He didn’t even go into the drafts Mac has been in charge of. Talk about futility at its finest. 

The draft is why he should go. Free agency makes everyone look bad in the NFL. 

[VinnyT16]

1 minute ago, joenamathwouldn'tcry said:

It did not work for the Jets in 2015.  That team {10-6} was a mirage, not a serious contender and could have just as easily been 6-10

That is bullsh*t. A better coach gets that team 12 wins. That was a very talented team on both sides. 

[BigO]

2 minutes ago, VinnyT16 said:

The draft is why he should go. Free agency makes everyone look bad in the NFL. 

FA has a place but not when it’s relied on to field a team by inept coffee critics like Mac. 

[jetstream23]

You may be on to something here about Macc.  But, I'll need some more details.

Edited December 19, 2018 by slats
ugh

[VinnyT16]

2 minutes ago, BigO said:

FA has a place but not when it’s relied on to field a team by inept coffee critics like Mac. 

The cba is designed where players are underpaid at the beginning and overpaid at the end. It is what it is. 

[joenamathwouldn'tcry]

11 minutes ago, VinnyT16 said:

That is bullsh*t. A better coach gets that team 12 wins. That was a very talented team on both sides. 

A very talented team would have beaten the woebegone Bills on the last day of the season with the playoffs on the line.  Fact is, that day they didn't show up and weren't even close.  Disgraceful 

[Jetsfan80]

1 hour ago, UnitedWhofans said:

But if you think Maccagnan is bad at signing players, why would you think he would spend that money on useful players? I mean, you believe that he could have used the money on other useful players. But that would mean he would be good enough to identify useful players. 

What is this I can't.....

[Kleckineau]

After reading the Sperminators Mac expose' John Idzik appears unfairly maligned.

[Miss Lonelyhearts]

1 hour ago, UnitedWhofans said:

At least when I make a thread it’s to plumb the depths and look at things upside down.

This sounds like a euphemism.

[Spoot-Face]

Goddammit. Now I'm depressed after reading that.

Seeing that all tallied up together sure is sobering.

[Jetsfan80]

1 minute ago, Spoot-Face said:

Goddammit. Now I'm depressed after reading that.

Seeing that all tallied up together sure is sobering.

I'm actually encouraged.  At least we have certifiable proof beyond all doubt that Mike Maccagnan is awful at his job.  Whether the Johnsons do anything about it or not, we can at least all move forward knowing the truth, and the truth sets us free. 

[jetstream23]

36 minutes ago, docdhc said:

I have to admit I was on the fence about Mac but this is a very scathing review that is hard to argue with.  Firing both Mac and Bowles, however, brings us back to the last search we had when Woody picked a coach before a GM and hamstrung both of them by not having either clearly in charge.  We need a head of football operations to hire the next coach and establish a clear chain of command.  Who is out there that can do that?  I for one would love one of those young offensive minded coaches like Defilippo, but we need someone with experience like a Tom Coughlin to oversee the whole thing.  Maybe Mike Shanahan, but he still wants to coach.  There is no clear cut great executive out there, and I don't trust the Johnson's judgement when it comes to picking one.  

IF the Jets want to blow it up again I wouldn't argue against it, however, I would argue that they're already late on the process.  I haven't advocated firing Macc (yet) and I do think he deserves to execute his first HC hire to find the guy that he wants to develop the QB that he himself acquired, but again, I'm not an enthusiastic, flag-waving supporter of Macc.  My bigger concern is the ineptitude of the Jets ownership in making calculated, strategic decisions on the correct timeline.  IF their intention is to get rid of both Bowles and Macc then they should already have had Macc move on (especially if they intend to elevate Heimerdinger).  The idea that they can wait until after the season to conduct a GM search followed by a HC search (unless they intend to parallel path the process again) is ludicrous.  All of the good candidates will be gone IMO.  The only caveat is if the Jets are ready to pivot and go to a single person in power or a package deal, bringing someone with great gravitas onboard as HC who would essentially bring his own GM (or would BE his own GM).  This is like Parcells coming in and bringing his right-hand man Tannenbaum, or a Belichick situation (both HC/GM).  The only guys that fit that mold are retreads and that's why names like Mike Shanahan are floating around.

While Macc may not be great I can't ignore the possibility that the Jets could make the situation worse by goofing up a complete reboot rather than just replacing the HC right now.  I'd rather see someone like David Shaw be brought in under Macc with the Jets trying to keep Heimerdinger waiting in the wings another year to see how 2019 goes.  The Stanford coach would be particularly interesting because of having faced Darnold twice in college.

[Pac]

1 hour ago, slats said:

If Maccagnan is retained, then this is the best case scenario, unfortunately. Compounding the problem is that the Jets probably won't be able to reel in their top candidate, and will give GM control to the third or fourth coach on their priority list. The Jets are notoriously cheap, as @bitonti will tell you, and it's hard to imagine them eating Bowles' and Macs' contracts at the same time. 

Mac hiring some hot-shot coordinator would be an unmitigated disaster. Putting Mac in charge of the whole thing like @Pac trollingly advocates? A nightmare. 

The fact that names like Shanahan, Harbaugh, or even McCarthy are getting thrown about is a good thing. Mac would be an underling with one foot out the door with any of them. 

Actually I avoided posting in this thread and rarely post in the fire macc thread.  I know you guys like to e high five each other over how terrible macc supposedly is.

Suffice to say I have a different opinion that is shared by the beat writers and many posters here..  macc will be retained and will play a major role in selecting the next hc.  It's not trolling if its true.

 

[Sperm Edwards]

7 minutes ago, VinnyT16 said:

Couple of things here and I am not a McCagnan fan

#1 How do you know what discount McCagnan could have gotten if he extended Mo and Snacks in 2015? Im sure he had conversations with them, but its the players right to bet on themselvels in a contract year.

#2 Marshall, Revis, Carpenter, Gilchrist, Fitzpatrick looked like great pickups year 1. Look at what he inherited. He had to field a team somehow. Hindsight 20/20 he should have stripped it down in year 2 instead of year 3. 

#1 Players want extensions. It's the small minority of players who want to wait - and risk career-ending/altering injury - for a chance to cash in even more. Snacks was not really under contract in 2015. He was tagged as a RFA. He'd made no real money to date as an undrafted player, and even as a RFA he was tagged at just $2.4MM. Had he sustained a bad injury, that could have been the end of his earning potential. 

It's a common give-and-take that players and teams enjoy when they're extended early: each side gets something. The player gets a lot of guaranteed money early without having to risk it all on a future payday (which has to coincide with not just health, but timing the contract with coming off a good season on the field). Likewise, the team gets a discount in return for assuming this risk.

 

#2 Revis did not look like a great pickup except to emotional fans who just wanted to feel revenge for his getting a ring with NE. Just because he and others seemed great to some, they were not great so much as they were better or more satisfying than initial expectations. Carpenter having 2 good years, but still keeping him around for 2 horrible years, balances it out to a net zero. If the team made a lot more noise - playoff berth or more - in one of his 2 better seasons then bragging rights could be in order. 

What Macc inherited were several bases covered temporarily, plus a mountain of cap room and high draft picks that could have been used to seriously build a sustained winner, plus frankly some low expectations (he wasn't in do-or-die mode by any stretch in 2015). Instead he took the opportunity to overpay players that others wouldn't, and generally got 1 year of production for 2 years of pay (in the case of Revis, even more since he got $39MM for basically 1 good but not Revis-of-old season; that's decidedly horrible value, and absolutely was not a great pickup). 

What he inherited wasn't good but its tragedy was massively overblown. He had more useful starter returning than the 2019 Jets are scheduled to have. He had 4/5 of an OL, a young QB he could take or leave as he saw fit, a productive RB, a now-healthy WR (whose presence helped Marshall immensely), a slot receiver, a dominant young DL, and a 2nd-year DB who ended up having a good 2nd season under Bowles. Plus on top of the wealth of cap space he inherited, as well as a high draft pick to start his tenure, the older players under contract were outside the guaranteed portions of their deals so he could cut ties with them whenever he pleased without a massive accelerated cap penalty.

He was set up perfectly to draft a pipeline of young players to take over for the older ones over the first couple seasons. Instead he foolishly created a pipeline at a position he already had covered with young players (drafting Leo), then drafted poorly at WR in round 2, then poorly at edge rusher in round 3. I don't really fault him that much for the Petty pick even though he sucked, because it was a 2-QB draft, but that's about it. He picked up nothing after that, for all the wishful fans crediting him for a NT who spent the overwhelming majority of his career on practice squads. Then in FA he could have continued with a pipeline/holes strategy instead of his "competitive rebuild" idiocy that collectively blew up in the faces of himself, his coaches, the few decent players we did have, and of course the fans.

So while we got a month or two of feel-good-ism before missing the playoffs in 2015 despite an easy path to get there, the cost was not nearly worth those results and we've been terrible ever since. His fault. It only makes it worse that the team being productive in 2015 probably cost him and Jets fans a FQB 2 full years earlier, and instead we ended up not-productive for the next 3 seasons after that (and counting). 

In essence, he's a checkers player trying to win a chess tournament. The best thing he has going for him is the league is filled with other checkers players so it helps to conceal his inadequacy. 

Sorry for the length. It's what I do, lol.

[kmnj]

let us also include signing josh pryor and crowell from the1-15 browns to bring in as our core offensive playmakers

[Spoot-Face]

30 minutes ago, Jetsfan80 said:

I'm actually encouraged.  At least we have certifiable proof beyond all doubt that Mike Maccagnan is awful at his job.  Whether the Johnsons do anything about it or not, we can at least all move forward knowing the truth, and the truth sets us free. 

They won't. Not for some time, at least. And, despite this post, some people will still defend Macc, either because they are blind, too scared to see the truth, rabid homers, or just plain stupid. Watching Darnold has gotten me more excited and hopeful than I've been for this team in quite a while, but even Sam seems futile when the man in charge of building the team around him is at this level of incompetency.

That is why I'm depressed.

Having the astronomer explain exactly how, why, and when the rouge meteor is gonna smash into Earth and kill us all, with nothing we can do to stop it, does not give me comfort.

[Spoot-Face]

32 minutes ago, Pac said:

Suffice to say I have a different opinion that is shared by the beat writers

That is not the self-endorsement you think it is.

[HessStation]

This should go down in message board history as the gold standard for all threads everywhere. 

[Jetster]

While Jet fans lament that we have the worst Coach in the NFL, which is definitely true, and a GM that has certainly had his issues, still, almost half of the league are 3 games apart from 3 wins to 6! 

Cardinals (3-11), Raiders (3-11), 49ers (4-10), Jets (4-10), Jags (4-10),Packers 5-8-1) Lions (5-9), Bucs (5-9), Bills (5-9), Giants (5-9) Browns (6-7-1), Broncos (6-8), Bengals (6-8).

So this hyperbole that the sky has completely fallen & this idea that the Jets are so deeply buried below other teams in this league with NO WAY OUT if they retain Macc is beyond ridiculous! Personally, I could give a sh*t if they let him go, but I also don't think keeping him is going to shorten our list of coaching candidates.

A lot of things have to go right in this league to have a successful season, WTF happened to Marrone,/Coughlin? Sperm would have loved that hire. How about the geniuses in San Fran? Snacks really helped turn around the Giants fortunes, lol. Its not the END OF THE WORLD if Macc stays. We secured our QB, he'll be here for 20 years god willing. Offense is going to be the offseason goal in free agency & the draft going forward after Bowles hits the bricks.

I think dealing in absolutes regarding our future is preposterous, and I'm not willing to say that if Macc is retained & we bring in a new coach that the Jets are destined for failure. You can take a period of 3/4 years in every single teams drafts & run them over the coals for horrible mistakes. Who else was available when we took Lee in that sh*t draft? I agree we missed out drafting Mahomes or Watson, but, we do now have Sam Darnold. 

Who's to say with a different Head Coach, a QB in place, a completely new direction to fix our offense things won't pan out with everyone on the same page in free agency & a draft plan? 

Now if your trying to sign McCarthy or any other veteran Coach & he says, no to Macc being a part of it, by all means show him the door. I just don't think it will be part of the equation & we're making a mountain out of a mole hill. 

[More Cowbell]

2 hours ago, #27TheDominator said:

We are under the cap because we have no talent.  We don't spend and he gets credit?

Not having fantasy stats has **** all to do with whether a WR is helping his QB.  Even with his "disappointing" stats Robinson would lead the Jets in receptions and receiving yards, He has one less TD than our leader- Anderson who most don't want to pay.  He gets 55 ypg, not 60 which is 6 yards more than anyone on roster. If you don't like his season, the fact that it would best anything we have is another indictment of Maccagnan.  Robinson got real money, but the Jets paid Terrelle Pryor $2M+ guaranteed and would have gone $4.5M for the season to whine on twitter, question team doctors and generally act douche-y.

Ok, but the OP was laying out how much money was wasted on FA busts by the Jets. I said it doesnt matter, we are still way under the cap. You say we are under becaise we have no talent. I agree. The contracts we gave to these FA weren't  cap killers so I guess we agree here. 

Also, saying Robinson is better than the dreck we have on the Jets os setti g a very low bar. 

[slats]

1 hour ago, Pac said:

Actually I avoided posting in this thread and rarely post in the fire macc thread.  I know you guys like to e high five each other over how terrible macc supposedly is.

Suffice to say I have a different opinion that is shared by the beat writers and many posters here..  macc will be retained and will play a major role in selecting the next hc.  It's not trolling if its true.

 

7

We'll see about the bold. If the rumors are true that the Jets are going "big game hunting," that likely comes straight from the owner and will result in Mac being demoted from equal partner to reporting to the head coach. 

[More Cowbell]

2 hours ago, Sperm Edwards said:

The money is significant because it highlights the amount we could have spent on useful players. If you think we're going to spend all of this wisely in one offseason, based purely on who's available now, then we just have a difference of opinion. Especially when it highlights the types of players Maccagnan typically acquires when spending these amounts.

Look, what i am saying if you read my original post in thos thread is everyone aquires FA busts. Singling out a GM because he picked up a bunch of bad one year contracts and saying it makes him demonstrably  worse than others is like saying a QB that doesn't  complete every pass he makes is demonstrably  worse than all the others. He is no different in FA than practically  every other GM in the league. Also, saying the money matters because it could have been spent on better players without naming the players is not much of an argument

[Sperm Edwards]

32 minutes ago, Jetster said:

While Jet fans lament that we have the worst Coach in the NFL, which is definitely true, and a GM that has certainly had his issues, still, almost half of the league are 3 games apart from 3 wins to 6! 

Cardinals (3-11), Raiders (3-11), 49ers (4-10), Jets (4-10), Jags (4-10),Packers 5-8-1) Lions (5-9), Bucs (5-9), Bills (5-9), Giants (5-9) Browns (6-7-1), Broncos (6-8), Bengals (6-8).

So this hyperbole that the sky has completely fallen & this idea that the Jets are so deeply buried below other teams in this league with NO WAY OUT if they retain Macc is beyond ridiculous! Personally, I could give a sh*t if they let him go, but I also don't think keeping him is going to shorten our list of coaching candidates.

A lot of things have to go right in this league to have a successful season, WTF happened to Marrone,/Coughlin? Sperm would have loved that hire. How about the geniuses in San Fran? Snacks really helped turn around the Giants fortunes, lol. Its not the END OF THE WORLD if Macc stays. We secured our QB, he'll be here for 20 years god willing. Offense is going to be the offseason goal in free agency & the draft going forward after Bowles hits the bricks.

I think dealing in absolutes regarding our future is preposterous, and I'm not willing to say that if Macc is retained & we bring in a new coach that the Jets are destined for failure. You can take a period of 3/4 years in every single teams drafts & run them over the coals for horrible mistakes. Who else was available when we took Lee in that sh*t draft? I agree we missed out drafting Mahomes or Watson, but, we do now have Sam Darnold. 

Who's to say with a different Head Coach, a QB in place, a completely new direction to fix our offense things won't pan out with everyone on the same page in free agency & a draft plan? 

Now if your trying to sign McCarthy or any other veteran Coach & he says, no to Macc being a part of it, by all means show him the door. I just don't think it will be part of the equation & we're making a mountain out of a mole hill. 

Goff

Wentz

You didn't read the original post after the first paragraph, I suppose.

Then again, I probably shouldn't respond to someone whose logic above is: The Giants had Snacks and the Giants did poorly the last year with him, so therefore he'd have had no value to us either. Bad teams don't have good players. Except the Jets, of course. They are loaded with good players and our SB dreams have been stymied by Todd Bowles and only Todd Bowles. These decisions in the OP were all wise and all good.

The bolded part is commonly-used nonsensical garbage designed to set up the premise of having to accept all of Macc's failures up to that point, then force people to answer what they'd do if they were suddenly transported in time to just after Macc screwed things up, annnnnnnnnnnd you're in charge of the Jets and the Jets are on the clock. GO!  

If you want Maccagnan to stay, you either hate the Jets or you believe Macc will find a way to select 10 more top-6 picks in the upcoming 2 drafts. There are no other rational conclusions.  

[UnitedWhofans]

I would like to see @Sperm Edwards also write the case for him. Because it is clear he is attentive and the sign of a great man is knowing the other sides. The idea of believing something yet acknowledging the opposite

[#27TheDominator]

11 minutes ago, More Cowbell said:

Ok, but the OP was laying out how much money was wasted on FA busts by the Jets. I said it doesnt matter, we are still way under the cap. You say we are under becaise we have no talent. I agree. The contracts we gave to these FA weren't  cap killers so I guess we agree here. 

Also, saying Robinson is better than the dreck we have on the Jets os setti g a very low bar. 

I agree that bar is low, but... what is the alternative?  It is like the people sitting around accepting the lack of talent because you can't win a super bowl without a QB.   Well, we have a QB now.  How good he is, remains to be seen, but not having any talent around him isn't helping.  I don't want to speak for him, but the main reason that @Sperm Edwards went over the money is because we all know how bad the drafting has been.  People point to the money, as if Maccagnan has been some kind of responsible steward of team funds that will now be able to fill any hole in free agency.

[Jetster]

3 minutes ago, Sperm Edwards said:

Goff

Wentz

You didn't read the original post after the first paragraph, I suppose.

Then again, I probably shouldn't respond to someone whose logic above is: The Giants had Snacks and the Giants did poorly the last year with him, so therefore he'd have had no value to us either. Bad teams don't have good players. Except the Jets, of course. They are loaded with good players and our SB dreams have been stymied by Todd Bowles and only Todd Bowles. These decisions in the OP were all wise and all good.

The bolded part is commonly-used nonsensical garbage designed to set up the premise of having to accept all of Macc's failures up to that point, then force people to answer what they'd do if they were suddenly transported in time to just after Macc screwed things up, annnnnnnnnnnd you're in charge of the Jets and the Jets are on the clock. GO!  

If you want Maccagnan to stay, you either hate the Jets or you believe Macc will find a way to select 10 more top-6 picks in the upcoming 2 drafts. There are no other rational conclusions.  

You have absolutely no inside info that Macc could have traded up to the 1 or 2 spot in that draft from 20, NONE.

[UnitedWhofans]

5 minutes ago, #27TheDominator said:

I agree that bar is low, but... what is the alternative?  It is like the people sitting around accepting the lack of talent because you can't win a super bowl without a QB.   Well, we have a QB now.  How good he is, remains to be seen, but not having any talent around him isn't helping.  I don't want to speak for him, but the main reason that @Sperm Edwards went over the money is because we all know how bad the drafting has been.  People point to the money, as if Maccagnan has been some kind of responsible steward of team funds that will now be able to fill any hole in free agency.

I blame Maccagnan for one major area and that is lack of offensive talent. DefensIvely we have talent I believe. We’ve even had a pass rush this year which is amazing.

but his shortcomings are getting offensive talent

[Integrity28]

I want to have Sperm’s baby.

SPOILER ALERT: it will be hairy

[Integrity28]

9 minutes ago, Jetster said:

You have absolutely no inside info that Macc could have traded up to the 1 or 2 spot in that draft from 20, NONE.

 

7 minutes ago, UnitedWhofans said:

I blame Maccagnan for one major area and that is lack of offensive talent. DefensIvely we have talent I believe. We’ve even had a pass rush this year which is amazing.

but his shortcomings are getting offensive talent

Low hanging fruit

[Jetster]

11 minutes ago, Sperm Edwards said:

Goff

Wentz

You didn't read the original post after the first paragraph, I suppose.

Then again, I probably shouldn't respond to someone whose logic above is: The Giants had Snacks and the Giants did poorly the last year with him, so therefore he'd have had no value to us either. Bad teams don't have good players. Except the Jets, of course. They are loaded with good players and our SB dreams have been stymied by Todd Bowles and only Todd Bowles. These decisions in the OP were all wise and all good.

The bolded part is commonly-used nonsensical garbage designed to set up the premise of having to accept all of Macc's failures up to that point, then force people to answer what they'd do if they were suddenly transported in time to just after Macc screwed things up, annnnnnnnnnnd you're in charge of the Jets and the Jets are on the clock. GO!  

If you want Maccagnan to stay, you either hate the Jets or you believe Macc will find a way to select 10 more top-6 picks in the upcoming 2 drafts. There are no other rational conclusions.  

You make a lot of great points. I just don't think that Macc is the culprit for all of our troubles. I still claim that we now have Darnold & are heading into the 3rd year of our rebuild with 2020 as the defining year, playoffs or bust. I'm just happy that we're going to try & move forward with a new coaching staff as the one Macc has been working with is one of the worst in our history & that my friend is saying something! I've always said I won't care if the new regime wants Macc out, I will never defend him in that type of scenario. I'd just say, thank you for Sammy!

[#27TheDominator]

34 minutes ago, More Cowbell said:

Look, what i am saying if you read my original post in thos thread is everyone aquires FA busts. Singling out a GM because he picked up a bunch of bad one year contracts and saying it makes him demonstrably  worse than others is like saying a QB that doesn't  complete every pass he makes is demonstrably  worse than all the others. He is no different in FA than practically  every other GM in the league. Also, saying the money matters because it could have been spent on better players without naming the players is not much of an argument

I get your general point, but where are the hits?  You want to compare to QBs,?  You sound like someone defending Hackenberg's completion percentage by saying that even Aaron Rodgers misses almost 40% of his throws.  Which guys weren't busts?  Revis was okay for 1-year and paid for 3.  Carpenter good for 2, paid for 4.  Forte okay, paid for 2+. Trumaine Johnson? Steve McClendon?  His biggest hit might be Claiborne on a pair of 1 years.  That doesn't seems like a sustainable plan to me.

Also, these weren't bad one year contracts.  Revis was more than 1 year.   Wilkerson?  Skrine more than 1 year.  They are still paying Gilchrist and he has played full seasons with two other teams since he last wore green and white.   Fitzpatrick's deal for 2016 was one year, but why were we still paying him in 2017?   Forte's deal wasn't 1 year.  They are paying him a million this year to sit on his couch and they were forced to keep him in 2017 because his salary was fully guaranteed.  Pryor is getting over $4M from us to be a malcontent twitter warrior.