Natahan Shepard another 3rd round bust for Maccagnan

[Stark]

2 hours ago, Sonny Werblin said:

The problem is that 15 games into his rookie seast, there is no evidence that he is better today than he was in week 1. 

and Bowles 4 seasons in.... Bowles is killing us in every aspect of the word. 

[KINGDIRK]

4 minutes ago, 56mehl56 said:

Yes that 3rd round pick ruined our SB dreams. 

No, that 3rd round pick combined with Petty, Hackenburg, Harrison, Donahue, Hansen, Stewart, Burris, Legget, Peake, Devin Smith, Mauldin and Darron Lee all equally ruined our SB dreams.

And save the “every GM makes bad picks” defense of Macc. He leads the league in picks made that are no longer in the NFL. We have one of the worst rosters in the league. Talk to me about his 2015, 2016, 2017 drafts. 

[section314]

Before we write him off, let's see how he plays for our soon to be named new HC, Doug Marrone.?

[Philc1]

6 minutes ago, section314 said:

Before we write him off, let's see how he plays for our soon to be named new HC, Doug Marrone.?

Mehta’s Head will literally explode if that happened

 

 

sign me up

[Philc1]

7 minutes ago, KINGDIRK said:

No, that 3rd round pick combined with Petty, Hackenburg, Harrison, Donahue, Hansen, Stewart, Burris, Legget, Peake, Devin Smith, Mauldin and Darron Lee all equally ruined our SB dreams.

And save the “every GM makes bad picks” defense of Macc. He leads the league in picks made that are no longer in the NFL. We have one of the worst rosters in the league. Talk to me about his 2015, 2016, 2017 drafts. 

Macc’s first 3 drafts were horrific.  That said Sam is the best qb of this draft class and Herndon looks legit.  Shepherd we don’t know yet it’s less than a season

[56mehl56]

8 minutes ago, KINGDIRK said:

No, that 3rd round pick combined with Petty, Hackenburg, Harrison, Donahue, Hansen, Stewart, Burris, Legget, Peake, Devin Smith, Mauldin and Darron Lee all equally ruined our SB dreams.

And save the “every GM makes bad picks” defense of Macc. He leads the league in picks made that are no longer in the NFL. We have one of the worst rosters in the league. Talk to me about his 2015, 2016, 2017 drafts. 

Give me a coaching staff that can develop and utilize talent first , then come back to me with your stats. 

[KINGDIRK]

8 minutes ago, Philc1 said:

Macc’s first 3 drafts were horrific.  That said Sam is the best qb of this draft class and Herndon looks legit.  Shepherd we don’t know yet it’s less than a season

I agree. But 3 straight horrific drafts should mean a firing.

[GreenFish]

He’ll be fine once we get him in the right scheme. Just as much as I want to match Darnold to be matched up with the right scheme, I want a defensive coordinator who bring the best out of these DLinemen. 

 

[Philc1]

2 minutes ago, KINGDIRK said:

I agree. But 3 straight horrific drafts should mean a firing.

Yes I agree Macc and Bowles would have been fired already if the owners cared

[Dcat]

3 hours ago, Sonny Werblin said:

The problem is that 15 games into his rookie seast, there is no evidence that he is better today than he was in week 1. 

Bowles. No. Defensive. Player. Development. Ever. 

[Warfish]

8 hours ago, Mogglez said:

15 games into his career. It's premature.

I'd like to believe that, I really would.  But I don't.

For one, you don't pick a reach, small school, older, "raw" player who needs multiple years to "develop" in the third round when you are as low on team talent as we were/are.  The seventh?  Sure.  Take a flier late.  In the third, we should expect a starter at most, or a contributor at the least, immediately.

Second, what gives anyone faith that Macc knew what he was doing selecting this low-probability prospect?  That there is real cause to have hope he'll suddenly be a productive player?

Lets look once again at Macc's record as a draft manager:

Year	Rnd	Player	Pick	Pos	To	AP1	PB	St	CarAV	G	Cmp	Att	Yds	TD	Int	Att	Yds	TD	Rec	Yds	TD	Int	Sk	College/Univ
2018	1	Sam Darnold	3	QB	2018	0	0	1	0	12	223	386	2698	17	15	43	110	1						USC
2018	3	Nathan Shepherd	72	DT	2018	0	0	0	0	15														Fort Hays St.
2018	4	Christopher Herndon	107	TE	2018	0	0	1	0	15									38	494	4			Miami (FL)
2018	6	Parry Nickerson	179	CB	2018	0	0	0	0	15														Tulane
2018	6	Folorunso Fatukasi	180	DT	2018	0	0	0	0	1														Connecticut
2018	6	Trenton Cannon	204	RB	2018	0	0	0	0	15						36	97	1	17	144	0			Virginia St.
Year	Rnd	Player	Pick	Pos	To	AP1	PB	St	CarAV	G	Cmp	Att	Yds	TD	Int	Att	Yds	TD	Rec	Yds	TD	Int	Sk	College/Univ
2017	1	Jamal Adams	6	S	2018	0	1	2	7	31												1	5.5	LSU
2017	2	Marcus Maye	39	S	2018	0	0	1	6	22												3	0.5	Florida
2017	3	ArDarius Stewart	79	WR	2017	0	0	0	1	15						7	27	0	6	82	0			Alabama
2017	4	Chad Hansen	141	WR	2017	0	0	0	1	15									9	94	0			California
2017	5	Jordan Leggett	150	TE	2018	0	0	0	0	14									13	107	1			Clemson
2017	5	Dylan Donahue	181	DL	2017	0	0	0	0	4														West Georgia
2017	6	Elijah McGuire	188	RB	2018	0	0	0	3	23						162	550	4	34	346	2			Louisiana
2017	6	Jeremy Clark	197	CB	2017	0	0	0	0	1														Michigan
2017	6	Derrick Jones	204	CB	2017	0	0	0	0	3														Mississippi
Year	Rnd	Player	Pick	Pos	To	AP1	PB	St	CarAV	G	Cmp	Att	Yds	TD	Int	Att	Yds	TD	Rec	Yds	TD	Int	Sk	College/Univ
2016	1	Darron Lee	20	OLB	2018	0	0	3	12	40												3	4.0	Ohio St.
2016	2	Christian Hackenberg	51	QB		0	0	0																Penn St.
2016	3	Jordan Jenkins	83	OLB	2018	0	0	3	12	45													12.5	Georgia
2016	4	Juston Burris	118	CB	2018	0	0	0	3	37												2		North Carolina St.
2016	5	Brandon Shell	158	T	2018	0	0	2	7	34														South Carolina
2016	7	Lac Edwards	235	P	2018	0	0	3	3	47	1	1	31	0	0	1	0	0						Sam Houston St.
2016	7	Charone Peake	241	WR	2018	0	0	0	1	30									22	214	0			Clemson
Year	Rnd	Player	Pick	Pos	To	AP1	PB	St	CarAV	G	Cmp	Att	Yds	TD	Int	Att	Yds	TD	Rec	Yds	TD	Int	Sk	College/Univ
2015	1	Leonard Williams	6	DE	2018	0	1	4	26	63												1	16.0	USC
2015	2	Devin Smith	37	WR	2016	0	0	0	1	14									10	135	1			Ohio St.
2015	3	Lorenzo Mauldin	82	OLB	2016	0	0	0	4	26												1	6.5	Louisville
2015	4	Bryce Petty	103	QB	2017	0	0	0	4	10	130	245	1353	4	10	12	74	0						Baylor
2015	5	Jarvis Harrison	152	G		0	0	0																Texas A&M
2015	7	Deon Simon	223	NT	2016	0	0	0	2	16													1.5	NW State (LA)
Year	Rnd	Player	Pick	Pos	To	AP1	PB	St	CarAV	G	Cmp	Att	Yds	TD	Int	Att	Yds	TD	Rec	Yds	TD	Int	Sk	College/Univ

 

There is not alot here to brag about tbqh.  Most of his picks are either role-filling JAG's, or gone as total busts.

Only his blindingly obvious 1st round picks (Adams, Darnold, Williams, Lee) can be considered at or above average players.  And even then, two are widely considered underperformers (Lee and Willaims). 

The 2nd and 3rd rounders?
2018 - Shephard - nothing of note in year #1
2017 - Maye - unneeded second Sagety, can't stay healthy, not much of a performer to-date
2017 - Stewart - bust WR #291
2016 - Hackenberg - never took a single snap, the only 2nd round QB to not do so in NFL history.
2016 - Jenkins - role filler at best.  To paraphrase Starship Troopers, he's fine in the job, till's he's hurt, or they find somebody better.
2015 - Devin Smith - bust WR #128
2015 - Mauldin - inspired momentary hope/hype, got a few sacks, but nothing really came of it.

Macc has been very VERY poor at drafting, it's really just that simple.  All his credit either comes from Darnold (which we paid a ton to move up to MAYBE get, and who fell into his lap because of the Giants of all teams), Adams (consensus pick), and that some of his late rounders have been retained as moderate-talent roster-spot-and-role-fillers (Shell, Jenkins, McGuire, etc.)

His only real "hit" that I see, is Herndon.  a 4th rounder who looks like he might be legit as a pass catching weapon.  

But Shephard.....it's hard to see him working out, simply because of all the factors involved and his lack of any notable performance to-date.  

It's premature, he could (stress could) surprise us all, the odds simply don't favor that.  And Macc is famous for missing in those rounds on guys he (and seemingle he alone) think are great that quickly wash out of the NFL.

[flgreen]

Wow, two threads on a 3rd pick in a few days time.  This guy must be great.  LOL

[JoJoTownsell1]

10 minutes ago, KINGDIRK said:

I agree. But 3 straight horrific drafts should mean a firing.

Even if that were true, he wasn't fired and then landed us a franchise QB in Darnold, what looks like a future All pro Tight End in Herndon and freed up a fortune of cap space.

So now you guys are still calling for him to get fired? It's a colossal waste of breath. He is not getting fired. Deal with it. 

[Warfish]

22 minutes ago, JoJoTownsell1 said:

Even if that were true, he wasn't fired and then landed us a franchise QB in Darnold, what looks like a future All pro Tight End in Herndon and freed up a fortune of cap space.

So now you guys are still calling for him to get fired? It's a colossal waste of breath. He is not getting fired. Deal with it. 

Yes, I believe he has earned dismissal and replacement.

No, he doesn't "get credit" for Darnold, he paid a ton in capital to have a chance to get "a QB", and only got Darnold because the Giants gave him to us.  That's not GM skill, thats paying a high cost followed by luck.

He gets credit for Herndon.  He also loses credit for Devin Smith, Bryce Petty, Christian Hackenberg, Ardarius Stewart, Chad Hanson, most of his FA moves on offense, and his failure to build a decent O-line after four years.

But yes, all breath here is wasted.  Mine.  Yours.  What will be will be.

And yes, we WILL have to deal with it if he is retained.  But we don't have to be silent, we can still discuss things and our opinions.  If you can;t handle it, you could always just not read threads or posts that discuss it. 

[JoeWillieWhiteShoesHOF]

1 hour ago, Stark said:

and Bowles 4 seasons in.... Bowles is killing us in every aspect of the word. 

Bowles is the best thing that ever happened to the Jets.  Maybe the worst coach they ever had. Many of Kotite's losses were close games coming against playoff bound teams.

No Bowles would have meant drafting in no mans land.  Granted you have a so called GM who is almost equally as bad but even he couldn't miss the Darnold pick.

Jets will be a SB threat real soon..with just average coaching and average GM success...that's how good Sam Darnold is going to be.

[56mehl56]

10 minutes ago, Warfish said:

Yes, I believe he has earned dismissal and replacement.

No, he doesn't "get credit" for Darnold, he paid a ton in capital to have a chance to get "a QB", and only got Darnold because the Giants gave him to us.  That's not GM skill, thats paying a high cost followed by luck.

He gets credit for Herndon.  He also loses credit for Devin Smith, Bryce Petty, Christian Hackenberg, Ardarius Stewart, Chad Hanson, most of his FA moves on offense, and his failure to build a decent O-line after four years.

But yes, all breath here is wasted.  Mine.  Yours.  What will be will be.

And yes, we WILL have to deal with it if he is retained.  But we don't have to be silent, we can still discuss things and our opinions.  If you can;t handle it, you could always just not read threads or posts that discuss it. 

So for yet another analogy - You buy your kid a Kia Soul for his 18th birthday - he smashes it into a wall. You then get him a Ford Focus and he totals it on the GS pkwy , then you decide to get him a BMW which he crashes into the east river. Do you say man do I suck at picking cars or do you conclude your son needs to learn how to drive. Todd Bowles hasn't even earned his learner's permit on coaching, he should never be allowed on the field as an NFL  HC again.  Mac can get him trash or superstars it just doesn't matter. 

[ASH1962]

10 hours ago, Jetsbb said:

I read an article a few weeks back that his playing time has been severely downgraded as Henry Anderson has come on. The guy is what 25 years old and appears likely to be regulated to back up limited duties for the rest of his time with the Jets. That is not what you hope to get from a very high 8th pick in the third round. Maccagnan will get lucky once in a blew moon with a Herndon but the track record says he is consistently terrible in finding value when scouting is most important rounds 2-5. 

I am not a Shepherd fan, but players often mirror the demeanor and attitude of their Coach, and in this case, Moribund is the word I used to use to describe Bowles. Let's see Shepherd play for a real coach and a real DC, then if he still sucks, yes he is a bust. But having said all of that, I want a GM change myself. MacCagnan's picks border on the bizarre sometimes and he misses more than he hits by a long shot.

[bitonti]

1 hour ago, BurnleyJet said:

Tough crowd, I'm not writing him off yet. He's a physical specimen. He played such a low level football in Canada or wherever, it may take time. I'm thinking Sione Pouha.

people who are hesitant to write off Nathan Shepherd haven't watched PJ Hill 

or all these other rookies that showed flashes

Shepherd is a gap eating 5 tech at best with zero physical upside due to his age. it was a bad pick, and a knee jerk reaction to replacing Mo, Sheldon and Snacks. They went from having all sorts of DL to having none. 

they got lucky with Henry Anderson but keep in mind they also drafted Foley that's a 3rd a 6th and the 7th into the DL

wonder where your developmental OL went? the DL. 

[CanadaSteve]

4 hours ago, Sonny Werblin said:

The problem is that 15 games into his rookie seast, there is no evidence that he is better today than he was in week 1. 

Helps when you actually get to play in a lost season....

But the sentiment is there.  Why do you draft such a project so high when an edge rusher has been a NEED for a decade?

I was pretty pissed when Shepard's name was called and Sam Hubbard was still on the board. Six picks later, he goes to the Bengals.  Guy has 6 sacks this year for them.  Was projected to be a late 1st -early 2nd rounder, and we had a position of need sitting there for us to take.  What do we get?  A project D-lineman. 

I have always been vocal about defending Mac where it is warranted.  He has made some good moves.  But his drafting at vital positions has been suspect AT BEST, and his F/A moves have been 50/50 at best, with his worst ones coming at high price tags.

Not good enough in today's NFL.

[Jets723]

9 hours ago, Mogglez said:

He's a raw player, in his his first year, and he's playing in a bad scheme.  Also, Shepard checked all the right boxes as a lineman looking to make the jump into the NFL based off of measurables, combine numbers, etc. 

He may not make it, but this thread is extremely premature.

Agreed.  Look we all know Macc hasnt had big success in the middle rounds but like you said its a bit premature. 

[Beerfish]

1 hour ago, 56mehl56 said:

Yes that 3rd round pick ruined our SB dreams. 

Come on dude, when you whiff in as many picks he has whiffed on the guys comment was correct.  At some point you actually have to start getting productive players from your draft at a much higher rate.

[56mehl56]

4 minutes ago, Beerfish said:

Come on dude, when you whiff in as many picks he has whiffed on the guys comment was correct.  At some point you actually have to start getting productive players from your draft at a much higher rate.

But once again its the chicken/egg scenario. Are the players bad because Mac is a horrible drafter or are the players bad because Bowles and staff are incompetent at developing and utilizing raw talent.  I know its neither 100% but after witnessing Bowles coach for 4 years I'm leaning much more in his direction as the main culprit. 

[playtowinthegame]

9 hours ago, Barry McCockinner said:

He's a bust after one season?

Back-to-School Shepard just needs to discover the fountain of youth. 

[Embrace the Suck]

Don't like the pick necessarily, but maybe early for the bust tag. I get that as a rookie DE in a 3-4 he should have a bajillion sacks already, but maybe look at it this way.... at least we didn't draft him in the first round so we're getting better.

[sec101row23]

2 minutes ago, 56mehl56 said:

But once again its the chicken/egg scenario. Are the players bad because Mac is a horrible drafter or are the players bad because Bowles and staff are incompetent at developing and utilizing raw talent.  I know its neither 100% but after witnessing Bowles coach for 4 years I'm leaning much more in his direction as the main culprit. 

At some point a good player will make plays regardless of the coaching.  You can evaluate them based on what you see on the field.  Bowles is bad, but it’s not like a HC can totally neuter a player to the point where he produces nothing.  That’s where we are with Shepherd.  Typically talent wins out over coaching.  

[Warfish]

25 minutes ago, 56mehl56 said:

So for yet another analogy - You buy your kid a Kia Soul for his 18th birthday - he smashes it into a wall. You then get him a Ford Focus and he totals it on the GS pkwy , then you decide to get him a BMW which he crashes into the east river. Do you say man do I suck at picking cars or do you conclude your son needs to learn how to drive. Todd Bowles hasn't even earned his learner's permit on coaching, he should never be allowed on the field as an NFL  HC again.  Mac can get him trash or superstars it just doesn't matter. 

We're back to circular logic, chicken and the egg.

Do we suck because Macc picks bad players?  Or do we suck because Bowles can't coach these players?

I would counter with "two things can be true at the same time".

We suck because Macc DOES draft poorly AND because Bowles cannot effectively coach.

Both should IMO be fired.  They are not mutual excuses for each other.

[56mehl56]

6 minutes ago, sec101row23 said:

At some point a good player will make plays regardless of the coaching.  You can evaluate them based on what you see on the field.  Bowles is bad, but it’s not like a HC can totally neuter a player to the point where he produces nothing.  That’s where we are with Shepherd.  Typically talent wins out over coaching.  

Not when the HC doesn't even put him on the field in a 4-11 season.

[DMan77]

I think he'll get better. The jump from division II to the NFL takes time and a lot of adjustments... Unfortunately he's 25 so he doesn't have the luxury of taking his time. He needs to make a big leap... I don't know, I think he could be an okay rotational player going forward. 

[peekskill68]

With the exception of Henry Anderson, who is playing above expectations, the entire DL played like a bunch of JAGs this season. Leo, McClendon, Pennel, all of them. Why single out Shepherd as a bust?  

[bitonti]

11 minutes ago, Warfish said:

 

Both should IMO be fired.  They are not mutual excuses for each other.

 

Both should have never been hired if we are being honest

people are talking about Harbaugh or McCarthy type hires, this franchise cheaps out and hires losers under Woody and they've been doing it since Al Groh. 

the secret is Woody and Chris don't really care about winning. they care about keeping the money coming in and don't have to win for that 

[TheNuuFaaolaExperience]

Brought to you by the same people who labeled Darron Lee a bust. 

[ChuckkieB]

10 hours ago, Barry McCockinner said:

He's a bust after one season?

ANY draft pick made by Mac over the last 4 years has an exponentially greater chance to bust  than the average non-Mac pick.  It' true.  It's science.  

[sec101row23]

20 minutes ago, 56mehl56 said:

Not when the HC doesn't even put him on the field in a 4-11 season.

He was playing more earlier in the season.  He did nothing.  Can’t fault Bowles on this one.  Bowles played Kaufusi more last week.   Can’t blame everything on Bowles.  

[56mehl56]

3 minutes ago, sec101row23 said:

He was playing more earlier in the season.  He did nothing.  Can’t fault Bowles on this one.  Bowles played Kaufusi more last week.   Can’t blame everything on Bowles.  

I don't know I might need to go back and watch the film. 

[More Cowbell]

11 hours ago, Jetsbb said:

I read an article a few weeks back that his playing time has been severely downgraded as Henry Anderson has come on. The guy is what 25 years old and appears likely to be regulated to back up limited duties for the rest of his time with the Jets. That is not what you hope to get from a very high 8th pick in the third round. Maccagnan will get lucky once in a blew moon with a Herndon but the track record says he is consistently terrible in finding value when scouting is most important rounds 2-5. 

I have to ask? Bowels can't make Leo look like a real defensive lineman. How the Hell was he ever going to do that with Shep.