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Quinnen Williams


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And you all know in your heart of hearts, it's going to go Bosa, Allen....

Then Roger's going to tell you the jets took... you guessed it, frank stallone... I mean Q Williams -- and i'll watch him try to keep a straight face when he says "DEFENSIVE TACKLE".... for the 5th time in under a decade.

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16 minutes ago, Paradis said:

And you all know in your heart of hearts, it's going to go Bosa, Allen....

Then Roger's going to tell you the jets took... you guessed it, frank stallone... I mean Q Williams -- and i'll watch him try to keep a straight face when he says "DEFENSIVE TACKLE".... for the 5th time in under a decade.

someone is trading up for haskins, just not sure yet who’s the most desperate. I think washington with smith out next season and no cap room could be that team

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I think free agency and trades with the quarterbacks may shed a little light on needs there - although I’m not sure anyone is going to make a team think they don’t need to draft one. Maybe Foles given what it’ll likely take to get him.

To me, barring trades, some combo of Bosa/Allen going 1/2 makes the most sense. Might turn out differently if Bosa’s injury lingers, Williams is a freak athlete, Arizona goes QB, or obviously a trade. Still a long way to go.

If it’s Bosa/Allen I think the move has to be a trade down. Think there are two scenarios there. Multiple teams want to leapfrog the Raiders who are an absolute wildcard and get their choice of the QB’s, in which case maybe you get a good return.

 

Or you take less in a trade just to pick up the extra pick. Team desperately needs pieces and I think that top tier of the draft is Bosa/Allen. Does anybody really feel all that much better about taking Williams than Oliver/Gary and having an extra day two pick - or preferably not a DT at all? Think they can move down several spots and remain in the same tier - particularly a quarterback run starts.

That said, Bosa honestly lines up most with what Macc has done towards the top of the draft. Big time favorite of public scouting community, on top of most boards. I definitely think there are scenarios he falls to 3 between his injury and Allen having awesome SEC production and likely killing the combine.

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5 hours ago, cant wait said:

someone is trading up for haskins, just not sure yet who’s the most desperate. I think washington with smith out next season and no cap room could be that team

I highly doubt WSH's gonna throw the next two years of draft capital in the wind to trade up for a guy could doesn't fit the blue chip prescription. 

I don't think anyone's trading up. 

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32 minutes ago, Paradis said:

I highly doubt WSH's gonna throw the next two years of draft capital in the wind to trade up for a guy could doesn't fit the blue chip prescription. 

I don't think anyone's trading up. 

Someone will trade up for Haskins.....he's the only legit QB prospect in this draft and I'm not a big fan.....but some team will.

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11 hours ago, Paradis said:

4 months from now, we're going to be like -- "why did we even bother talking about any of this..."

So painfully Macc's style to take the high floor Defensive player -- Allen or Williams - we'll find out. Guaranteed

 

Only way he doesn’t if he trades down . But Mac is so BPA in rd 1 . It’s all but guaranteed it will be Allen, bosa or Williams . Whichever falls to 3. 

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On 12/27/2018 at 11:49 PM, cant wait said:

only way the jets take an interior DL is if he tests in the watt/donald range. this team desperately needs a playmaker on defense to close out games with a big sack or pressure

Well, interior line pressure is the ONLY way to keep  Brady from eating you alive.  He hates to move side to side.  He likes to step up.  But do I make a first draft pick at 3 for that reason?  I don't know.  You have to also do things like score regularly to beat him

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Just off the top of my head, I can't remember an interior DL going in the top 3 of the draft since Suh. Even in the 2017, Jonathan Allen (another Alabama interior DL) was supposed to go top 5 and wasn't picked until the teens. 

I'm not buying Williams yet at the top of the 1st.  

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1 hour ago, maury77 said:

Just off the top of my head, I can't remember an interior DL going in the top 3 of the draft since Suh. Even in the 2017, Jonathan Allen (another Alabama interior DL) was supposed to go top 5 and wasn't picked until the teens. 

I'm not buying Williams yet at the top of the 1st.  

Dude is highest rated DL since Suh . He going top 5. 

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1 hour ago, maury77 said:

Just off the top of my head, I can't remember an interior DL going in the top 3 of the draft since Suh. Even in the 2017, Jonathan Allen (another Alabama interior DL) was supposed to go top 5 and wasn't picked until the teens. 

I'm not buying Williams yet at the top of the 1st.  

Suh and Gerald McCoy went 2-3 in 2010.  Then Marcel Dareus in 2011.  That was the last time.  

But Aaron Donald has probably changed the script on this.  

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1 hour ago, maury77 said:

Just off the top of my head, I can't remember an interior DL going in the top 3 of the draft since Suh. Even in the 2017, Jonathan Allen (another Alabama interior DL) was supposed to go top 5 and wasn't picked until the teens. 

I'm not buying Williams yet at the top of the 1st.  

I tend to agree.  His value is pretty inflated right now.  I don’t think he is some special rare talent.  He has one year of production, I’d be very careful with him.  Ed Oliver is a better interior prospect.  

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I tend to agree.  His value is pretty inflated right now.  I don’t think he is some special rare talent.  He has one year of production, I’d be very careful with him.  Ed Oliver is a better interior prospect.  

Honestly, pending the combine, I think the top 3 are going to be a combo of Bosa, Allen and either Haskins or Lock


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38 minutes ago, sec101row23 said:

I tend to agree.  His value is pretty inflated right now.  I don’t think he is some special rare talent.  He has one year of production, I’d be very careful with him.  Ed Oliver is a better interior prospect.  

If you told me I had no choice, and had to select a dlineman, I would go with Ed Oliver no question. I’m sure @RobR would agree too 

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4 minutes ago, maury77 said:


Honestly, pending the combine, I think the top 3 are going to be a combo of Bosa, Allen and either Haskins or Lock


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9 hours ago, RobR said:

Someone will trade up for Haskins.....he's the only legit QB prospect in this draft and I'm not a big fan.....but some team will.

I can’t agree with you guys. 

Honestly if roles were revered would you want the Jets trading up for Haskins? Just because he’s the defacto number 1 doesn’t mean any team feels he’s worth trading up for. That’s a GM’s job on the line. 

I don’t see it, yet. At all. Maybe later in rnd 1. 

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I have been in favor of Williams but can play devils advocate against this pick. His SPARQ page lists a 40 of 5.26 he needs to run sub 5 (and or do something else extraordinary) to be worth a top 3 pick 

the player has the film he just needs to prove elite athleticism. 

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3 minutes ago, Paradis said:

 

I can’t agree with you guys. 

Honestly if roles were revered would you want the Jets trading up for Haskins? Just because he’s the defacto number 1 doesn’t mean any team feels he’s worth trading up for. That’s a GM’s job on the line. 

I don’t see it, yet. At all. Maybe later in rnd 1. 

I'm not disagreeing in terms of what I think is the right thing to do.  But NFL GMs traded up for Josh Allen, EJ Manuel, Johnny Manziel, and many other very suspect QB prospects in the first round.  It happens almost every year.  RGIII...Brandon Weeden...Blaine Gabbart...Tim Tebow...Mark Sanchez...Josh Freeman...the list goes on and on.

Haskins may not be Darnold-level, but I think he's a better prospect than a lot of the guys I just named were.  In some cases, much better.  GMs lose jobs if they DON'T get a QB.  How much longer do you think JAX and DEN can afford to wait.  If you don't get Haskins, you're either looking at the 5'10" guy or a big step down to Lock or someone else.  Or waiting another year.  Trading up for a QB is just as likely to save a job as it is to lose it IMO.

I know you are 100% adamant it won't happen and time may prove you right.  I don't think it's anywhere near as clear-cut as that and if anything, I'd put the odds of a trade-up into the top-3 for Haskins at 50-50 right now.

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2 minutes ago, bitonti said:

I have been in favor of Williams but can play devils advocate against this pick. His SPARQ page lists a 40 of 5.26 he needs to run sub 5 (and or do something else extraordinary) to be worth a top 3 pick 

the player has the film he just needs to prove elite athleticism. 

I hear 'elite athleticism' and the name Vernon Gholston just pops into my head.  I can't even help it!  Oh wait...Stephen Hill!  No...stop it!  Make the voices stop!!!

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1 hour ago, nycdan said:

I'm not disagreeing in terms of what I think is the right thing to do.  But NFL GMs traded up for Josh Allen, EJ Manuel, Johnny Manziel, and many other very suspect QB prospects in the first round.  It happens almost every year.  RGIII...Brandon Weeden...Blaine Gabbart...Tim Tebow...Mark Sanchez...Josh Freeman...the list goes on and on.

Haskins may not be Darnold-level, but I think he's a better prospect than a lot of the guys I just named were.  In some cases, much better.  GMs lose jobs if they DON'T get a QB.  How much longer do you think JAX and DEN can afford to wait.  If you don't get Haskins, you're either looking at the 5'10" guy or a big step down to Lock or someone else.  Or waiting another year.  Trading up for a QB is just as likely to save a job as it is to lose it IMO.

I know you are 100% adamant it won't happen and time may prove you right.  I don't think it's anywhere near as clear-cut as that and if anything, I'd put the odds of a trade-up into the top-3 for Haskins at 50-50 right now.

true, but that's under the veil of my own personal decision making. I wouldn't rule it out objectively... and of course, lets be real -- we haven't even had the combine, or pro days, or team work outs... still so much to happen. 

In order for a team (basically JAX) to trade up as high as #3, you'd have to really love one of these guys AND believe OAK will take him... and i'm not sure JAX isn't just looking for a Foles/Flacco fix -- if they still think they're ready to make a run. So many variables there. NYG? After balking on a QB last year, now pay to move up?

One thing I can't take seriously -- talk of teams like WSH or MIA trading up into the top 3.. that's a preposterous given the cost vs the talent of these QBs... #8-12, maybe... top 3? That's insane IMO

 

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4 minutes ago, Paradis said:

true, but that's under the veil of my own personal decision making. I wouldn't rule it out objectively... and of course, lets be real -- we haven't even had the combine, or pro days, or team work outs... still so much to happen. 

In order for a team (basically JAX) to trade up as high as #3, you'd have to really love one of these guys AND believe OAK will take him... and i'm not sure JAX isn't just looking for a Foles/Flacco fix -- if they still think they're ready to make a run. So many variables there. NYG? After balking on a QB last year, now pay to move up?

One thing I can't take seriously -- talk of teams like WSH or MIA trading up into the top 3.. that's a preposterous given the cost vs the talent of these QBs... #8-12, maybe... top 3? That's insane IMO

 

JAX doesn't have to believe OAK will take him.  They just have to believe that either NYG will take him or someone else will trade up above 7 to take him.  Sure, they could trade up with OAK and probably be safe, but once you're trading up, you can't always pinpoint the exact spot you want to get to.  Our pick would certainly be in play.  Again, this is about perception, which is impossible to predict this early as you pointed out.

I think DEN is definitely in play at #10.  Maybe CIN at #11.  And as preposterous as it seem to trade up from #13 or #15 to #3, The Rams traded up from #15 to #1 for Goff just 3 years ago while PHI went from #13 to #2 in the same draft for Wentz (who had all of 23 starts in college and a small school to boot).   BUF traded up from #21 to #7 for Josh Allen last year.  So whatever you think of the relative value of the QBs, the precedent is real and recent.    So while we may think it is insane, it doesn't preclude real NFL GMs from actually doing it.  

Personally, I don't expect anything to happen until the clock starts on draft day.  If Bosa and Allen go 1-2, I think you will see Macc on the phone.  Whether he's talking to the guy he intends to pick or to another team we won't know, but the coverage will start getting very hot right around then.

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13 minutes ago, nycdan said:

JAX doesn't have to believe OAK will take him.  They just have to believe that either NYG will take him or someone else will trade up above 7 to take him.  Sure, they could trade up with OAK and probably be safe, but once you're trading up, you can't always pinpoint the exact spot you want to get to.  Our pick would certainly be in play.  Again, this is about perception, which is impossible to predict this early as you pointed out.

I think DEN is definitely in play at #10.  Maybe CIN at #11.  And as preposterous as it seem to trade up from #13 or #15 to #3, The Rams traded up from #15 to #1 for Goff just 3 years ago while PHI went from #13 to #2 in the same draft for Wentz (who had all of 23 starts in college and a small school to boot).   BUF traded up from #21 to #7 for Josh Allen last year.  So whatever you think of the relative value of the QBs, the precedent is real and recent.    So while we may think it is insane, it doesn't preclude real NFL GMs from actually doing it.  

Personally, I don't expect anything to happen until the clock starts on draft day.  If Bosa and Allen go 1-2, I think you will see Macc on the phone.  Whether he's talking to the guy he intends to pick or to another team we won't know, but the coverage will start getting very hot right around then.

Nothing you said there lacks logic or prudence. I’m just of the camp that does not see anything special, at all, in these QBs. Drew Lock in rnd 1 is laughable IMO. Glorified Petty.  

This draft to me is the kind that good GMs will wait and see. Let the draft fall to them. If you’re JAX and Haskins is still there, great. Murray. sure. Why not. If both are gone, that’s fine. Take BPA and see what’s up in rnd 2. 

Nex year is the year to get aggressive. 

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20 minutes ago, Paradis said:

Watch, after all that - we’ll see like 4 QBs go top 10 ??

??

 

??

So like you, I highly doubt that but it WOULD be perfectly ironic.  For me, the over-under is 2.  Haskins and Murray could both go top-10...or just one of them.  I'd be very surprised if a 3rd QB snuck up there, but could see Lock or Jones going in the teens.

Personally, as good as Murray looks, I am SO glad the Jets don't need to be thinking about drafting a 5'10" guy as the savior of the franchise.  

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2 hours ago, Paradis said:

 

I can’t agree with you guys. 

Honestly if roles were revered would you want the Jets trading up for Haskins? Just because he’s the defacto number 1 doesn’t mean any team feels he’s worth trading up for. That’s a GM’s job on the line. 

I don’t see it, yet. At all. Maybe later in rnd 1. 

But I think the flip side of this is Mahomes and Watson.  Nobody was willing to trade up to Top 5 for these guys in 2017, and there may be some GMS that are sorry they were not more aggressive.  With the benefit of hindsight, both would have been worthy of a ransom the including mul;tiple #1s to move up.  May be guys out there thinking that if I like a QB, I gotta go get him.

The question is not to you or I think these guys are worthy of a Top 5 pick.  If there a couple of GMs out there that think a Haskins/Lock/Murray could lead their franchise for the next decade, they might feel the need to be aggressive and go get their guy.

Probably won't happen, becuase I hope for a trade down every year.  But I am still going to be hopeful that it could happen as the process plays out.

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40 minutes ago, Paradis said:

Watch, after all that - we’ll see like 4 QBs go top 10 ??

??

 

??

Literally anything is possibly... I've been with you on this saying that I dont think anyone will actually trade up (ooooo for us to suck next year and have a top 2 pick lol) . 

 

One thing i will say though is that someone I talk to with a lot of good intel on league opinions keeps telling me that he really believes you can see 1-2 qbs go in the top 10 this draft.. Said no one is talking about it now really but a lot of teams are getting desperate after seeing the success of some of the young guys from last year, and want to grab one of the guys this year. I told him i think he's nuts, maybe haskins has a shot at top 10, maybe murray, but thats it.  He told me teams are high on Haskins, but he said its really contingent on how he does at the combine.  They love the tape, loved his bowl game, want to see him up close and get in the interviews with him to test his football knowledge. 

 

Again, I dont see a trade up, but i also wouldnt be Shocked if one happened. 

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13 minutes ago, nycdan said:

We're way off topic here, but in for a penny...

I'm not at all an expert on judging college QBs but given the similarities in playing experience, how do you guys feel Haskins compares to Trubisky?

better than trubisky and arguably goff

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If you told me I had no choice, and had to select a dlineman, I would go with Ed Oliver no question. I’m sure [mention=28280]RobR[/mention] would agree too 

I agree with you and Rob. With Williams, he is a very skilled technician, but his athleticism just doesn’t jump off the tape to me like Oliver. More than most years, I’m going to be very tuned into the combine this year as I think there isn’t much separating a lot of these prospects (especially the edge guys)


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We're way off topic here, but in for a penny...
I'm not at all an expert on judging college QBs but given the similarities in playing experience, how do you guys feel Haskins compares to Trubisky?

I prefer Haskins. I think Trubisky is the better athlete, but Haskins is the more polished passer.


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2 hours ago, maury77 said:


I agree with you and Rob. With Williams, he is a very skilled technician, but his athleticism just doesn’t jump off the tape to me like Oliver. More than most years, I’m going to be very tuned into the combine this year as I think there isn’t much separating a lot of these prospects (especially the edge guys)


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Good post. It seems like Oliver has some character issues that have caused him to drop a bit . Nobody questions the talent.....probably head and shoulders above all the other D guys. If he interviews well at the combine, and in his individual meetings after, he may be the guy who impacts the draft the most at the top.

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2 hours ago, maury77 said:


I agree with you and Rob. With Williams, he is a very skilled technician, but his athleticism just doesn’t jump off the tape to me like Oliver. More than most years, I’m going to be very tuned into the combine this year as I think there isn’t much separating a lot of these prospects (especially the edge guys)


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Combine numbers (3 cone in particular) seem to matter more for edge rushers than for most other positions. I'm very curious how these guys grade out.

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On 1/27/2019 at 11:43 AM, nycdan said:

He was by far the highest ranked prospect on the board at #6 who could have arguably gone #1 that year.  Do you pass on an all-pro potential DT in favor of .

Yes of course you do. Had we had the balls to pass on Williams, Gurley could be in Green and White. 

We just took 2 DTs in the draft last year and have Williams still. God damn rights we pass on that Fat sonofabitch. Gimme Metcalf, Oliver, hell even Jonah as a guard or Greedy. 

Anything but another fcking high floor DT. 

That sh*t will put me in draft retirement. Seriously. 

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2 minutes ago, Paradis said:

Yes of course you do. Had we had the balls to pass on Williams, Gurley could be in Green and White. 

We just took 2 DTs in the draft last year and have Williams still. God damn rights we pass on that Fat sonofabitch. Gimme Metcalf, Oliver, hell even Jonah as a guard or Greedy. 

Anything but another fcking high floor DT. 

That sh*t will put me in draft retirement. Seriously. 

My recollection is that many people here liked Kevin White that year as the top choice (assuming Williams would have been gone).  Some liked Beasley.  I don't recall much clamoring for Gurley with the #6 pick although you were probably the most vocal for him and definitely ahead of the curve on that. 

Had we taken White instead of Williams?  Ugh.  If Williams turned out to be Aaron Donald, we wouldn't be having this conversation and at the time, nobody could know.  Nobody doubted his talent.  I'm still not convinced he's not a far better player than his stats show and am hoping getting him out of Kacy Rodgers' clutches will help.  Time will tell.  Can we at least agree, that for all of our strong opinions, none of us really knows anything for sure, especially including the guys who get paid to do it.

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If Maccagnan drafts Q. Williams at 3 it would just reinforce that Maccagnan has zero feel for what moves the needle for an NFL football team.  This franchise has drafted non-impact interior defensive linemen year after year and still after all that draft capital being spent, has done nothing to advance this franchise.  It’s maddening.   There needs to be an infusion of skill and talent and players capable of making plays in a week in week out basis.  

This offense has suffered from a lack of skill players for WAY too long, it’s been documented year after year and still nothing.  It’s time to take a bold approach, the usual way of doing things just isn’t working.  It’s beyond obvious.  There needs to be a true needle moving approach and risk taking that has been missing for decades.   

Heres my “move the needle” offensive draft plan:

Rnd 1.   DK Metcalf, WR Ole Miss

Rnd 3.   Riley Ridley, WR Georgia

Rnd 3.  Max Scharping OT Norther Illinois.  

Rnd 4.  Erik McCoy, C  Texas A&M

Rnd 5.  Trayvon Williams RB. Texas A&M

Rnd 6.  Josh Oliver TE  San Jose State

Rnd 7.   ???  No idea yet.......

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8 minutes ago, nycdan said:

My recollection is that many people here liked Kevin White that year as the top choice (assuming Williams would have been gone).  Some liked Beasley.  I don't recall much clamoring for Gurley with the #6 pick although you were probably the most vocal for him and definitely ahead of the curve on that. 

Had we taken White instead of Williams?  Ugh.  If Williams turned out to be Aaron Donald, we wouldn't be having this conversation and at the time, nobody could know.  Nobody doubted his talent.  I'm still not convinced he's not a far better player than his stats show and am hoping getting him out of Kacy Rodgers' clutches will help.  Time will tell.  Can we at least agree, that for all of our strong opinions, none of us really knows anything for sure, especially including the guys who get paid to do it.

Appreciate the Gurley nod. To me he was the logical pick talent wise, but also if your member roster at that time, we were hanging your hopes on Matt forte. Marshall and decker were on board so Kevin White wasn’t a priority, and Kevin White was not somebody who I liked at all. I thought he was a bit of a sham it turned out to be true.

 I also didn’t think As highly of Leonard as others. Although he looked like a high floor tackle which he is, there were parts of his game that we are lacking, particularly making an impact on pass rush on third and long. he didn’t show up on tape at USC in that area well. 

I think if Metcalf checks the boxes in Indy, you have to consider him. He’ll be a top 10 pick, and what’s the Difference between six and three or eight and three? A  guy like Metcalf will never hit free agency, ever. Which is what our problem is trying to find a  WR1

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