Bowles gets the axe + Mac stays ***official***

[Philc1]

14 minutes ago, jack48 said:

Everything I read about harbaugh is that he is not necessariy innovative.  That he is very set in his ways, and does not make adjustments easily.  As a QB he was just better than average, with a weak arm and a lot of that "grit" stuff.  Still better than most, of course.  What people pay him tells me he has value.  I don;t see it in the way Michigan plays.

Innovation is overrated.  Seriously.  Football is all about execution that’s what Harbaugh excels at.

[jack48]

37 minutes ago, Philc1 said:

I wanted Bowles fired two years ago.  I knew he was absolutely no good at all by week 3 2016 that said Macc is the real problem maybe he figures it out 

I actually quit on Bowles after that Buffalo game.  He treated Sammy Watking like Jerry Rice.  And when he brought back Fitz......that sealed it.  Anyone that did not know the flukish nature of Fitz's career should not be coaching

[kthisguy]

 
Will Macc's presence help or hurt the Jets with the big game hunting?
If the plan is to limit Macc, they should have just fired him.
Because Macc is here, and is actually getting MORE power (I.E. the ability to help choose the next HC), that tells me the Johnsons have no intention of reducing or limiting Macc's ability to make personnel decisions.
Thus, there is only bad news that comes with retaining Macc as GM.  There really isn't a single positive thing that comes from this decision. 

I agree Macc should be fired. He has preformed as badly as Bowles. Will a big time coach work under Macc? I highly doubt any would. If they keep the same structure where GM and coach report only to the Johnsons? Maybe one will take it. There are only a handful of openings. They may take it knowing they will win and power struggle. (Coaches have massive egos)

Unfortunately, the Jets have a terrible organizational structure. They don’t allow Macc to hire his own coach when he started and was an unknown quantity but they now allow him to hire or at least have input in the coach when he has proven himself to be a poor GM!?!? If the Johnsons don’t fire him now we are stuck with Macc for at least a couple of years if he hires a first time coach.

My guess is we will miss out on the big names coaches and Coordinators. We will talk ourselves into liking whomever is hired only to be back here in a year or so looking for the next coach and GM.




Sent from my iPhone using JetNation.com mobile app

[TheSage]

How much do we really know whether Mac was the problem? He could handed our former head coach an all-star roster and it would have resulted in a losing record. Must bring in a strong HC and give him dictatorial authority and see what happens.

[southparkcpa]

13 hours ago, Pac said:

Thank god.  Time for Macc to right the ship.

Mac has done nothing to let us think we are in good hands. 

HIs track record is horrible. 

Half his picks are out of the league. 

[Jetsfan80]

3 hours ago, jack48 said:

The fact that he cannot beat OSU irks me

All that matters is if he can beat the Bills and Dolphins, as well as the post-Brady Patriots. 

Given his prior NFL-coaching success, I'd say he can.

[jack48]

1 minute ago, Jetsfan80 said:

All that matters is if he can beat the Bills and Dolphins, as well as the post-Brady Patriots. 

Given his prior NFL-coaching success, I'd say he can.

I actually do not see how you can project that conclusion.  This is the pros.  

[rangerous]

you can't hate bowles.  he was just in over his head given the players he was given.  he do himself any favors by being loyal to kacy and not dealing with the locker room effectively.  the sny show basically said that the locker room was not disciplined no matter how much todd tried to say that he dealt with the problems internally.

and maybe in the next few days or even weeks the johnsons will take a hard look at what mac has brought and decide to fix him too.  that may not mean launching mac but it could mean revising the power structure and bringing in some real oversight.  here's to hoping.

[Jetsfan80]

27 minutes ago, jack48 said:

I actually do not see how you can project that conclusion.  This is the pros.  

He got to a Super Bowl with Colin freakin Kaepernick, for pete's sake. 

[varjet]

When in the Colin Kaepernick crowd going to start asking why Bowles was fired and Mac stayed?  They were equally bad.  

[varjet]

36 minutes ago, rangerous said:

you can't hate bowles.  he was just in over his head given the players he was given.  he do himself any favors by being loyal to kacy and not dealing with the locker room effectively.  the sny show basically said that the locker room was not disciplined no matter how much todd tried to say that he dealt with the problems internally.

and maybe in the next few days or even weeks the johnsons will take a hard look at what mac has brought and decide to fix him too.  that may not mean launching mac but it could mean revising the power structure and bringing in some real oversight.  here's to hoping.

The Johnsons needs to remember how Parcells ran the show and not feel guilty about insisting on a disciplined locker room. These are not the Cowboys of the 90s.  In NY in particular, you need to run a tight ship.  

I do think the Johnsons in real life are like the old white guys in Trading Places.  

[rangerous]

4 minutes ago, varjet said:

The Johnsons needs to remember how Parcells ran the show and not feel guilty about insisting on a disciplined locker room. These are not the Cowboys of the 90s.  In NY in particular, you need to run a tight ship.  

I do think the Johnsons in real life are like the old white guys in Trading Places.  

good analogy.  hence the rooney rulers.  one of bowles biggest issues was keeping the players focused.  they apparent had a bit of a zoo in the locker room.  it just doesn't work unless you have some really good enforcer type players and leadership.

[rammagen]

21 hours ago, Sperm Edwards said:

Nope. Not even close, and there are dozens of examples that directly contradict this myth.

1. According to this belief, Jamal Adams is a would-be stud who instead has sucked his first 2 seasons. Also he’s no better in year 2 than he was as a rookie?
2. Henry Anderson regressed under Bowles? We got him with a throwaway 7th rounder and he just had his only good season, far exceeding expectations.
3. Fitz had his best season under Bowles,
4. McCown QB’d the offense to a semi-respectable level despite the GM tanking the roster for the #1 pick (and screwed that up, too). 
5. Chris Ivory had what was easily the most productive and reliable season of his career under Bowles - even as a receiver - and became instantly worse in every way in Jax the very next season. 
6. Enunwa (when healthy) didn’t improve dramatically under Bowles? 
7. Buster Skrine - meh player that he is - was so much better when he was playing in Cleveland?
8. UDFA Robby Anderson played well under Bowles, and that’s because he has talent. The other WRs Macc drafted didn’t because they suck. 
9. Mo had his best season under Bowles (until he got paid and then mailed it in).
10. Calvin Pryor even was decent for a year under Bowles in 2015.
11. Trumaine Johnson (when he played) was allegedly better in 2018 than 2017; the Rams had enough money to keep him.
12. Claiborne was better and more reliable under Bowles than he was in Dallas.
13. Brandon Marshall had arguably his best season (or close enough to it) under Bowles, after what seemed like his first year on a downhill slide with Chicago in 2014. Think he wasn’t good a year later because of Bowles? Look at his post-Jets career.
14. Eric Decker bounced back from his injury and had a plenty good season under Bowles in 2015. After his 2016 injury he was never a reliable WR again and couldn’t even make the Pats’ roster. 
15. Herndon did well for a rookie under Bowles. Not unlike Anderson, it’s because he has some talent so the coaching staff had something to work with. The other TEs didn’t because they have little to no talent (from 2015-2017 the best TE Macc gave Bowles was friggin’ ASJ).
16. Brian Winters developed noticeably better under Bowles (when healthy). This Idzik draft pick is still easily the team’s best and most talented lineman.
17. Brandon Shell quickly developed into a starter under Bowles; about as good as he was ever expected to be.
18. Beachum was awful in Jacksonville in 2016, but became at least passable under Bowles since then.
19. Snacks didn’t exactly suck in his one year with Bowles. His play was good enough under Bowles to get this 2-down NT a giant contract a year later.
20. Revis was still fine while he was in shape and trying, despite this supposed Bowles handicap. Then he got fat and lazy and sucked. He played no better for the great Andy Reid after we cut him.
21. Maye was an instant starter as a rookie and looked fine. He was improving under Bowles’ coaching before getting injured.
22. Jermaine Kearse had the best season of his career under Bowles (with Josh McCown as his QB).
23. Previously-forgettable Demario Davis had his best season and turned his whole career around under Bowles.
24. ASJ got his life straightened out playing under Bowles, and at least for half a season looked ok here. Ultimately he just isn’t any better than that, but there’s a good chance nice-guy Bowles had a positive impact on him.
25. Powell was plenty good under Bowles.
26. Prior to the scheme change, James Carpenter had his 2 best career seasons under Bowles. He played far better than he was expected to be the day he was signed.
27. Jordan Jenkins has started to develop and get progressively better each year under Bowles.
28. Sheldon Richardson got worse after leaving Bowles. He was often out of position here, but that’s because there was a bottleneck at the position, and since Richardson was easily the most athletically versatile of the 3 he was the one most suited for moving around. The alternative would be to keep one of them on the sideline. Besides, it’s not like there were any really good starting LBs on the team that year anyway.
29. FFS even Jalin Marshall looked usable under Bowles until the fumbles just became too much.
30. Charone Peake isn’t an NFL WR but under Bowles he developed into a reliable special teams player.

Bowles was not and is not a good head coach. While he may have been a good position coach and coordinator before coming here, at least by reputation, as a HC the players walked all over him and it’s clear the top job is too big for him.

There’s no need to make up hyperbole that everyone played terribly here specifically because of him, as though every player he ever encountered and coached was worse for it, and as though he was furnished good and well-rounded teams year after year after year.

Ultimately most of the players were bad in his years here because most of roster was filled with bad players and/or bad characters. 

The roster sucks. Yet again. That is on the substandard GM. Bowles was also a substandard HC independent of the reality that he was given sucky teams to coach these past 3 consecutive seasons.

ok but I still have my belief that allot of players never developed or regressed but lets take a look at some of your points and agree to disagree

1.  how much did Bowles actually play into this. what I see in him is a highly motivated player who does not need a coach
2. Henry Anderson first yr he has been healthy.  what happened to the big Kat he has never progressed and Bleacher report calls him average at best? I lay that with Bowles
3. Fitz had a rating over 100 this yr and would have surpassed the Jets season if not pulled
4. McCown did what should have been expected by an experience qb he ran the offense the way it should have been ran
5. Chris Ivory had 247 attempts 50 more then his next yr and again healthy
6. Enunwa always looked good from the point he was drafted, one could say we expected more from him till the injury
7. Buster Skrine - waste of space the living pass interference call?
8. UDFA Robby Anderson played well under Bowles,and who brought him in it wasn't Bokles wasn't it the GM?
9. Mo had his best season under Bowles (until he got paid and then mailed it in). So you are giving the coach the credit for having a good yr and then blaming the player for sucking, it cuts both ways if bowles gets credit for him having a great yr he gets the blame for the let down
10. Calvin Pryor even was decent for a year under Bowles in 2015. Calvin Pryor was ok un Ryan too but never the player he was hyped to be and was basically the same player every yr
11. Trumaine Johnson Are we watching the same games because I saw penalties and wide open receivers
12. Claiborne was healthy if you look back at his first yr in Dallas when healthy basically the same player
13. Brandon Marshall had arguably his best season (or close enough to it) under Bowles, after what seemed like his first year on a downhill slide with Chicago in 2014. Think he wasn’t good a year later because of Bowles? Look at his post-Jets career.
14. Eric Decke rhad his best yr in Denver before we signed him he came close to those numbers in 2015 but are we giving bowles credit for players stayng the same?
15. Herndon did well for a rookie under Bowles.  again who drafted him, you cant take credit and give it to bowles when herndon was supposed to go higher in the draft till an knee injury derailed him. if you give credit to bowles you give credit to the gm for drafting him knee injury and all. Cant have it both ways
16. Brian Winters stayed basically the same and has not really advanced past his first yr or two, the best Idzik pick there was hands down
17. Brandon Shell quickly developed into a starter under Bowles; about as good as he was ever expected to be.
18. Beachum simple cut and paste.. Signed to a healthy multi-year deal during the offseason of 2017, Mike Maccagnan once again inked an average veteran offensive lineman instead of drafting the position or spending big bucks. The Jags marked the second NFL organization to give up on the seventh-round tackle (Pittsburgh Steelers).
19. Snacks came on and deveoped under Rex to even mention bowles here is laugh but his first yr with Jets playing he had 66 tackles and with bowles his last yr here 72 so lets give Bowles a big hand for 6 more tackles
20. Revis again were watching the same games? revis the last yr was out of shape and a step slow, not blaming bowles but also not giving him credit for a player who went on to be bad for yet another team.
21. Maye was an instant starter as a rookie and looked fine. Again if you give Boiwles credit then give Macc credit for drafting him
22. Jermaine Kearse had the best season of his career under Bowles and completely disappeared this yr under Bowles
23. Previously-forgettable Demario Davis is having a comprable yr in NO with 5 sacks and 110 tackles under another coach and the yr before he came with the browns had 99 tackles
24. ASJ got his life straightened out playing under Bowles, never said Bowles wasn't a nice guy just a bad coach who can not get the best out of a majority of his players
25. Powell was plenty good under Bowles. Powell was plenty good under Rex as well
26. Prior to the scheme change, James Carpenter if you giover bowles credit for 2 good yrs he has to take the fall for the 2 bad yrs and who signed this beast again?
27. Jordan Jenkins how much is coach and how much is the player, you say the gm cant find players and sucks but you keep pointing out players that have improved, the question I have is how much did the coach have to influence these guys
28. Sheldon Richardson regessed from yr one onewards and that is partly coaching and mostly Sheldon, but was a pro bowler in 2014
29. FFS even Jalin Marshall  again coaching let down or gm let down or maybe both
30. Charone Peake isn’t an NFL WR but under Bowles he developed into a reliable special teams player.I am sorry but aren't special teams players in the NFL?

There are question for everything posted. but I stand by my point with Bowles being such a bad coach how much credit or blame does the gm take. To me we are drafting from the same pool of players as everyone else, and players come out of no where for every team like Anderson. The coach here should have won 7 games this yr with the talent  but those are games he blew or the team never showed up. That is not the GM that is coach. The gm put enough talent on the field that this team could have gone 500 without the bad coaching job.7-9 was a more realistic goal that could have been reached That is not the gm who prepares the team or get to make the calls on the field.

Look the way this team does things are stupid the coach should report to the gm or a vp of football operations not the owner and equal footing with the gm.

[Sperm Edwards]

On 12/31/2018 at 8:34 PM, rammagen said:

ok but I still have my belief that allot of players never developed or regressed but lets take a look at some of your points and agree to disagree

1.  how much did Bowles actually play into this. what I see in him is a highly motivated player who does not need a coach
2. Henry Anderson first yr he has been healthy.  what happened to the big Kat he has never progressed and Bleacher report calls him average at best? I lay that with Bowles
3. Fitz had a rating over 100 this yr and would have surpassed the Jets season if not pulled
4. McCown did what should have been expected by an experience qb he ran the offense the way it should have been ran
5. Chris Ivory had 247 attempts 50 more then his next yr and again healthy
6. Enunwa always looked good from the point he was drafted, one could say we expected more from him till the injury
7. Buster Skrine - waste of space the living pass interference call?
8. UDFA Robby Anderson played well under Bowles,and who brought him in it wasn't Bokles wasn't it the GM?
9. Mo had his best season under Bowles (until he got paid and then mailed it in). So you are giving the coach the credit for having a good yr and then blaming the player for sucking, it cuts both ways if bowles gets credit for him having a great yr he gets the blame for the let down
10. Calvin Pryor even was decent for a year under Bowles in 2015. Calvin Pryor was ok un Ryan too but never the player he was hyped to be and was basically the same player every yr
11. Trumaine Johnson Are we watching the same games because I saw penalties and wide open receivers
12. Claiborne was healthy if you look back at his first yr in Dallas when healthy basically the same player
13. Brandon Marshall had arguably his best season (or close enough to it) under Bowles, after what seemed like his first year on a downhill slide with Chicago in 2014. Think he wasn’t good a year later because of Bowles? Look at his post-Jets career.
14. Eric Decke rhad his best yr in Denver before we signed him he came close to those numbers in 2015 but are we giving bowles credit for players stayng the same?
15. Herndon did well for a rookie under Bowles.  again who drafted him, you cant take credit and give it to bowles when herndon was supposed to go higher in the draft till an knee injury derailed him. if you give credit to bowles you give credit to the gm for drafting him knee injury and all. Cant have it both ways
16. Brian Winters stayed basically the same and has not really advanced past his first yr or two, the best Idzik pick there was hands down
17. Brandon Shell quickly developed into a starter under Bowles; about as good as he was ever expected to be.
18. Beachum simple cut and paste.. Signed to a healthy multi-year deal during the offseason of 2017, Mike Maccagnan once again inked an average veteran offensive lineman instead of drafting the position or spending big bucks. The Jags marked the second NFL organization to give up on the seventh-round tackle (Pittsburgh Steelers).
19. Snacks came on and deveoped under Rex to even mention bowles here is laugh but his first yr with Jets playing he had 66 tackles and with bowles his last yr here 72 so lets give Bowles a big hand for 6 more tackles
20. Revis again were watching the same games? revis the last yr was out of shape and a step slow, not blaming bowles but also not giving him credit for a player who went on to be bad for yet another team.
21. Maye was an instant starter as a rookie and looked fine. Again if you give Boiwles credit then give Macc credit for drafting him
22. Jermaine Kearse had the best season of his career under Bowles and completely disappeared this yr under Bowles
23. Previously-forgettable Demario Davis is having a comprable yr in NO with 5 sacks and 110 tackles under another coach and the yr before he came with the browns had 99 tackles
24. ASJ got his life straightened out playing under Bowles, never said Bowles wasn't a nice guy just a bad coach who can not get the best out of a majority of his players
25. Powell was plenty good under Bowles. Powell was plenty good under Rex as well
26. Prior to the scheme change, James Carpenter if you giover bowles credit for 2 good yrs he has to take the fall for the 2 bad yrs and who signed this beast again?
27. Jordan Jenkins how much is coach and how much is the player, you say the gm cant find players and sucks but you keep pointing out players that have improved, the question I have is how much did the coach have to influence these guys
28. Sheldon Richardson regessed from yr one onewards and that is partly coaching and mostly Sheldon, but was a pro bowler in 2014
29. FFS even Jalin Marshall  again coaching let down or gm let down or maybe both
30. Charone Peake isn’t an NFL WR but under Bowles he developed into a reliable special teams player.I am sorry but aren't special teams players in the NFL?

There are question for everything posted. but I stand by my point with Bowles being such a bad coach how much credit or blame does the gm take. To me we are drafting from the same pool of players as everyone else, and players come out of no where for every team like Anderson. The coach here should have won 7 games this yr with the talent  but those are games he blew or the team never showed up. That is not the GM that is coach. The gm put enough talent on the field that this team could have gone 500 without the bad coaching job.7-9 was a more realistic goal that could have been reached That is not the gm who prepares the team or get to make the calls on the field.

Look the way this team does things are stupid the coach should report to the gm or a vp of football operations not the owner and equal footing with the gm.

Lol people love to play this preposterous game where every game won under Bowles was a given, that would have surely/automatically happened under every supposedly-acceptable HC, and we can then legitimately begin adding on would-be wins from this made-up baseline.

Bowles was not a good HC, and (like his GM counterpart) clearly deserved to be fired instead of extended a year ago.

That doesn’t therefore mean he brought nothing to the table as a coach, nor that everything he did at all times was unhelpful if not counterproductive.

The talent on this team was garbage, and every one of the handful of starter-worthy players on the roster knows it. Bowles surely blew some wins, just like he also coached them out of some losses. You don’t see it because you choose to see every win as automatic/easy, and every one of the players who did well did so with zero input or guidance or strategy from the HC. Just like I suppose the players themselves were responsible for stealing the Lions’ signals, lol.

[Miss Lonelyhearts]

4 minutes ago, Sperm Edwards said:

Lol people love to play this preposterous game where every game won under Bowles was a given, that would have surely/automatically happened under every supposedly-acceptable HC, and we can then legitimately begin adding on would-be wins from this made-up baseline.

Bowles was not a good HC, and (like his GM counterpart) clearly deserved to be fired instead of extended a year ago.

That doesn’t therefore mean he brought nothing to the table as a coach, nor that everything he did at all times was unhelpful if not counterproductive.

The talent on this team was garbage, and every one of the handful of starter-worthy players on the roster knows it. Bowles surely blew some wins, just like he also coached them out of some losses. You don’t see it because you choose to see every win as automatic/easy, and every one of the players who did well did so with zero input or guidance or strategy from the HC. Just like I suppose the players themselves were responsible for stealing the Lions’ signals, lol.

too short didn’t read

[rammagen]

On 1/4/2019 at 6:55 PM, Sperm Edwards said:

Lol people love to play this preposterous game where every game won under Bowles was a given, that would have surely/automatically happened under every supposedly-acceptable HC, and we can then legitimately begin adding on would-be wins from this made-up baseline.

Bowles was not a good HC, and (like his GM counterpart) clearly deserved to be fired instead of extended a year ago.

That doesn’t therefore mean he brought nothing to the table as a coach, nor that everything he did at all times was unhelpful if not counterproductive.

The talent on this team was garbage, and every one of the handful of starter-worthy players on the roster knows it. Bowles surely blew some wins, just like he also coached them out of some losses. You don’t see it because you choose to see every win as automatic/easy, and every one of the players who did well did so with zero input or guidance or strategy from the HC. Just like I suppose the players themselves were responsible for stealing the Lions’ signals, lol.

And I love the game your playing you post 20 reason you got 20 replies and this above is the come back?

I never said any game was a given that we won this yr under bowles

Bowles blew 2 games this yr if not more with his play calling and lack of preparation and his rigidness of not changing game plans. His forte was supposed to be defense most of the high picks were on defense most of the breakdowns that stand out the most to fans is the way teams scored on the Jets defense. So yes Bowles brought nothing but diminishing return since his first yr here.

Bowles coached them out of one lose this yr one and that was Detroit.

you posted 20 reason and I gave 20 replies for being torn on MACC he drafted players and Bowles has a hand in developing the players, so there is no way in the world you or anyone else can excuse the coach for the lack of development on the players. Even if Macc did one thing right with Sam  with trading up and appearing to get the right player he has done more then bowles.

all it takes is the foundation of one player and with that a team can be successful. I never argued Macc was great. But this drafting issue has gone on for 10 yrs and it will take more then 3 drafts to correct it no matter who comes into the front office. Also there is no telling how much influence the staff over the picks which has to do with the garbage way the coach reports to the owner and not the gm.

https://www.usatoday.com/story/sports/nfl/2018/08/07/nfl-worst-drafting-teams-last-decade-browns-2010/920226002/

 

Agree to disagree but your opinion is no more valid then mine or does it diminishes anyone who is torn on the GM. A decent coach gets 7 wins out of this team.  Your telling me in games against the browns the packers and the fins a good coach does not seal the game and get a win after leading or being tied at half time or going into the 4th quarter. we lost to qbs that were basically off the street in the bills and 1 fins game. That is the GM's fault? that is 3 games right there that gets this team to 7 wins with the horrible talent we have. where we differ on opinion you are saying both Macc and Bowles had to go and I am saying bowles definitely had to go and I am torn on Macc because I can see where this team as bad as it was had enough talent to go 7 and 9 if the coach did not shoot his own foot

 

 

[Jetsfan80]

6 minutes ago, rammagen said:

Agree to disagree but your opinion is no more valid then mine or does it diminishes anyone who is torn on the GM. A decent coach gets 7 wins out of this team.  Your telling me in games against the browns the packers and the fins a good coach does not seal the game and get a win after leading or being tied at half time or going into the 4th quarter. we lost to qbs that were basically off the street in the bills and 1 fins game. That is the GM's fault? that is 3 games right there that gets this team to 7 wins with the horrible talent we have. where we differ on opinion you are saying both Macc and Bowles had to go and I am saying bowles definitely had to go and I am torn on Macc because I can see where this team as bad as it was had enough talent to go 7 and 9 if the coach did not shoot his own foot 

 

Even if everything you say here is true, a 7-win roster is not good enough for a GM who has been here for 4 years.

[Sperm Edwards]

36 minutes ago, rammagen said:

And I love the game your playing you post 20 reason you got 20 replies and this above is the come back?

I never said any game was a given that we won this yr under bowles

Bowles blew 2 games this yr if not more with his play calling and lack of preparation and his rigidness of not changing game plans. His forte was supposed to be defense most of the high picks were on defense most of the breakdowns that stand out the most to fans is the way teams scored on the Jets defense. So yes Bowles brought nothing but diminishing return since his first yr here.

Bowles coached them out of one lose this yr one and that was Detroit.

you posted 20 reason and I gave 20 replies for being torn on MACC he drafted players and Bowles has a hand in developing the players, so there is no way in the world you or anyone else can excuse the coach for the lack of development on the players. Even if Macc did one thing right with Sam  with trading up and appearing to get the right player he has done more then bowles.

all it takes is the foundation of one player and with that a team can be successful. I never argued Macc was great. But this drafting issue has gone on for 10 yrs and it will take more then 3 drafts to correct it no matter who comes into the front office. Also there is no telling how much influence the staff over the picks which has to do with the garbage way the coach reports to the owner and not the gm.

https://www.usatoday.com/story/sports/nfl/2018/08/07/nfl-worst-drafting-teams-last-decade-browns-2010/920226002/

 

Agree to disagree but your opinion is no more valid then mine or does it diminishes anyone who is torn on the GM. A decent coach gets 7 wins out of this team.  Your telling me in games against the browns the packers and the fins a good coach does not seal the game and get a win after leading or being tied at half time or going into the 4th quarter. we lost to qbs that were basically off the street in the bills and 1 fins game. That is the GM's fault? that is 3 games right there that gets this team to 7 wins with the horrible talent we have. where we differ on opinion you are saying both Macc and Bowles had to go and I am saying bowles definitely had to go and I am torn on Macc because I can see where this team as bad as it was had enough talent to go 7 and 9 if the coach did not shoot his own foot

 

 

Nah, you take for granted that wins were sure thing wins with any coach, and this is the basis for the "we should have won 7 games" stuff. They also beat up on Luck, picking him off 3x including a pick 6, but again this is presumed to be devoid of the DB-centric HC's input.

I think Bowles sucked as a HC but the teams he was handed - even if he had a hand in requesting some of it - was subpar to say the least. 

Duh that the HC's input is sought, but ultimately the GM picks the players and this GM picked crappy players for the HC. FFS even everyone's favorite safety said as much. I don't exactly think he should be the GM either, but it's obvious he and others can easily differentiate good and great players from meh and bad ones.

[rammagen]

54 minutes ago, Jetsfan80 said:

Even if everything you say here is true, a 7-win roster is not good enough for a GM who has been here for 4 years.

a 7 win roster after being bad at drafting for 10 yrs is not bad. It does take time to gather talent and you need to have the right people to develop the talent. Did you see the link where we were rated the 4th worst drafting team since 2008

[Jetsfan80]

1 minute ago, rammagen said:

a 7 win roster after being bad at drafting for 10 yrs is not bad

Yes, it is.  It's BECAUSE of our bad drafting that we're in that position, and Macc has played a significant role in placing us there.  Again, its been 4 years for Macc.  You can't pin the bad roster on the previous 6 seasons anymore. 

A competent GM wouldn't have dug us an even bigger hole. 

[rammagen]

19 minutes ago, Sperm Edwards said:

Nah, you take for granted that wins were sure thing wins with any coach, and this is the basis for the "we should have won 7 games" stuff. They also beat up on Luck, picking him off 3x including a pick 6, but again this is presumed to be devoid of the DB-centric HC's input.

I think Bowles sucked as a HC but the teams he was handed - even if he had a hand in requesting some of it - was subpar to say the least. 

Duh that the HC's input is sought, but ultimately the GM picks the players and this GM picked crappy players for the HC. FFS even everyone's favorite safety said as much. I don't exactly think he should be the GM either, but it's obvious he and others can easily differentiate good and great players from meh and bad ones.

Nah I dont take for granted wins but those games without the coach were winnable period. 

The team he was handed was better then what was played out. I agree it was a poorly constructed team with a  ton of wholes, Duh where we differ is how much input the coach had in that selctions of players. With this team's front office both reporting to the owner it is hard to say who has more input you would hope the gm  but no one can say that for sure. You mentioned players like Anderson that was a UDFA and who signed him that scout should be promoted. 

 

What you like to do is assume and put words into my posts what I state is pretty clear I named three games and you give a duh replay and talk about the colts game, did I mention the colts game nope I mention three games where we had the lead and lost.

 

[Sperm Edwards]

12 hours ago, rammagen said:

Nah I dont take for granted wins but those games without the coach were winnable period. 

The team he was handed was better then what was played out. I agree it was a poorly constructed team with a  ton of wholes, Duh where we differ is how much input the coach had in that selctions of players. With this team's front office both reporting to the owner it is hard to say who has more input you would hope the gm  but no one can say that for sure. You mentioned players like Anderson that was a UDFA and who signed him that scout should be promoted. 

 

What you like to do is assume and put words into my posts what I state is pretty clear I named three games and you give a duh replay and talk about the colts game, did I mention the colts game nope I mention three games where we had the lead and lost.

 

I mentioned the Colts game because we won. For all we know with whatever coaching upgrade we get we'd have gotten blown out of that game 42-14, in which case it would have gone in the column of games that weren't in play. 

My point is you can't count wins earned as automatic. Despite the denial, people counting win totals we should have finished with are doing just that. Among our lowly 4 wins, any/all of the following 3 were also very losable games: Detroit, Denver, Indy. It's easy to write off the Denver win because we wiped the floor with them. Meanwhile with a fired HC of their own they were a competitive team until the final month, at 6-6 and 3 of those losses were to playoff teams KC, LAR, Hou came by a combined 9 points. We kicked the crap out of them with this sucky roster and still fans behave as though this was an easy win that would have been the outcome with any other HC.

Accept that we will not hire any perfect HCs who never make mistakes and blow games. Belichick would be an obvious upgrade to Bowles and he makes blunders as well. There is no such thing as any HC who gets every possible win out of a team unless the team goes undefeated because even at 12-4 every loss can be blamed on the HC if you second-guess enough play calls and gameplans.

Meanwhile look at the first NE loss. Would this have gone another way with or without an admittedly-flawed HC/OC trying to score points with this joke of an excuse of an OL, protecting Josh McCown, handing off to Elijah McGuire and Isaiah Crowell, throwing to the likes of Leggett and a rookie TE, plus a WR trio of Robby, Q, and Jermaine Kearse? This is an offense that coaches can work with to put up points with any consistency?

Bowles was crap, but the teams assembled from 2016-2018 would have made a whole lot of good coaches look like crap. 

[BigO]

On 1/4/2019 at 6:55 PM, Sperm Edwards said:

Lol people love to play this preposterous game where every game won under Bowles was a given, that would have surely/automatically happened under every supposedly-acceptable HC, and we can then legitimately begin adding on would-be wins from this made-up baseline.

Bowles was not a good HC, and (like his GM counterpart) clearly deserved to be fired instead of extended a year ago.

That doesn’t therefore mean he brought nothing to the table as a coach, nor that everything he did at all times was unhelpful if not counterproductive.

The talent on this team was garbage, and every one of the handful of starter-worthy players on the roster knows it. Bowles surely blew some wins, just like he also coached them out of some losses. You don’t see it because you choose to see every win as automatic/easy, and every one of the players who did well did so with zero input or guidance or strategy from the HC. Just like I suppose the players themselves were responsible for stealing the Lions’ signals, lol.

 

On 1/4/2019 at 7:00 PM, Miss Lonelyhearts said:

too short didn’t read

Condensed version. Bowles and Macc suck.

[rammagen]

16 hours ago, Jetsfan80 said:

Yes, it is.  It's BECAUSE of our bad drafting that we're in that position, and Macc has played a significant role in placing us there.  Again, its been 4 years for Macc.  You can't pin the bad roster on the previous 6 seasons anymore. 

A competent GM wouldn't have dug us an even bigger hole. 

but this is my point with the way the team is set up and with the pisspoor coaching there is no way you can blame this solely on the gm. If the coach goes to the owner and say get player x and the owner tell the gm? there is enough there to raise questions that is why i am torn on the GM he has found some good players enough no, but what is happening behind the scenes is what I question. Changing gms might not be enough if the owner is outvoting him with the coach

[Jetsfan80]

2 hours ago, rammagen said:

but this is my point with the way the team is set up and with the pisspoor coaching there is no way you can blame this solely on the gm. If the coach goes to the owner and say get player x and the owner tell the gm? there is enough there to raise questions that is why i am torn on the GM he has found some good players enough no, but what is happening behind the scenes is what I question. Changing gms might not be enough if the owner is outvoting him with the coach

If the HC is calling a lot of the shots on the picks, then the GM is effectively neutered and thus terrible anyways. 

That's very unlikely to be the reality of what happened, however.  If it was, then BOTH would have been fired, not just Bowles.  Chris Johnson seems to believe Macc has been doing a good enough job not only to continue making the picks, but also to have input on who the next HC is.   

There's no scenario where Mike Maccagnan comes out of the last 4 years looking anything but terrible.