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Lonewolf

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I think Maccagnan has done better with the O-line than others, particularly at LT.

The trouble with Left Tackles is that, like QB's, when you've got a good one you don't let them go, so those that fall to free agency or get traded are usually really flawed. The market is never good and honestly ever since Fergusson retired I though Mac did the best he could at LT. Clady was a reasonable trade even if it didn't pan out. Beachum is an average starting LT on an average and fair deal, and he's the perfect guy to have as a stopgap at Sam's blindside while they search for a more permanent solution in the draft.

And oh yeah, they haven't been in place to draft a good LT at all since Mac arrived. Not from what I could tell. I guess they could have traded up in 2016 or reached in 15 or 17, but as I saw it there was never a good LT at their draft pick value. This year could be different though.

I also liked his trade for Shell (one of like three mid-round guys that look like keepers, still his biggest downside as a GM), his re-signing of Winters and his initial signing of Carpenter. Carp fell off the map with time but these guys have been fine at their spots for the majority of the time Mac's helmed at the GM position.  

The one spot he's utterly sucked at is Center. Mangold's gone, so let's bring in can't block and can't snap the next two years. Long's struggles this season were ridiculous and unacceptable. Although oddly even HE might be salvaged if he can actually secure the LG spot in Carp's place.

With future replacements needed from the Center on left the unit needs work. I'm all for adding some talent there from round one, I've been on that train since before D-Brick retired actually. But I'd always recalled Maccagnan doing well with the realities of the market at... once again, except Long. He could have done better there, but not much elsewhere.

 

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5 hours ago, David Harris said:

Paradis is a top 15 OL in the league

Watching  that ESNY film break down, against the Pat's, It showed how they Dominated the A gap.

I think Macc tried to get by with a second tier FA in Long and it backfired. We need a Center and need to over pay for Paradis.

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1 hour ago, BurnleyJet said:

Watching  that ESNY film break down, against the Pat's, It showed how they Dominated the A gap.

I think Macc tried to get by with a second tier FA in Long and it backfired. We need a Center and need to over pay for Paradis.

Jets should target 2 Olineman in free agency. The 1st Paradis, its imperative we finally get an above average center for Sam. 2nd target should be Trent Brown from the Pats. Living in New England I catch a lot of the Patriots shows and people in the know here want to keep 2 free agents but think Belichick will let them walk, as you know he never overpays.

The 1st guy they mentioned was Flowers (the guy chasing Sam & causing a fumble), 2nd was Trent Brown & the interesting thing regarding Brown is that the Patriots drafted LT Isaiah Wynn in the 1st round of the 2018 draft. Thought being, Scarnechia is coaching up Wynn, slide him in next year (cheap), because Pats don't do too many 2nd contracts.

So, if you came out of free agency with Paradis & Brown, you could look for some nasty big ol guards starting in the 3rd round & have no issue taking Bosa or Quinnen. 

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17 hours ago, Lonewolf said:

Agree. Mac has failed to draft a line or even target a pro bowl caliber lineman!  Darnolds ceiling is insane, and thw fastest way to get there is by building a fortress around him for years to come. Period.  

Yup.  Can you just imagine Darnold being able to sit in the pocket scanning the entire field being able to go through all his progressions? (that are actually already lightning fast at 21 years old, remember Sanchez? 1st Read covered, end of play, didn’t even know what a progression was, couldn’t even hit his check down in the back field in stride, if he hit the check down in the back field at all, what an incredible difference).

He made a ton of big play “off-schedule” plays already this year, but mostly out of necessity, idiot coach is playing a guy, FOR 9 GAMES, who is firing snaps over his head or into the ground, Darnold can’t even see the play develop half the time haha...the only thing that finally stopped it was embarrassment I think, Ian Eagle and Dan Fouts finally called Bowles out, giggling as to “what in the world is this coach thinking?” As the camera panned and stayed on Bowles.

Then when a semi competent Center was FINALLY put in, and Darnold received clean snaps at a decent rate....his game caught fire, almost single handedly beating Houston and then Aaron Rodgers after leading a last second game winning drive in Buffalo.

Yeah, like you say “build a fortress” around the kid.....and it won’t even be fair to the rest of the league.

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9 hours ago, JoeWillieWhiteShoesHOF said:

Yup.  Can you just imagine Darnold being able to sit in the pocket scanning the entire field being able to go through all his progressions? (that are actually already lightning fast at 21 years old, remember Sanchez? 1st Read covered, end of play, didn’t even know what a progression was, couldn’t even hit his check down in the back field in stride, if he hit the check down in the back field at all, what an incredible difference).

He made a ton of big play “off-schedule” plays already this year, but mostly out of necessity, idiot coach is playing a guy, FOR 9 GAMES, who is firing snaps over his head or into the ground, Darnold can’t even see the play develop half the time haha...the only thing that finally stopped it was embarrassment I think, Ian Eagle and Dan Fouts finally called Bowles out, giggling as to “what in the world is this coach thinking?” As the camera panned and stayed on Bowles.

Then when a semi competent Center was FINALLY put in, and Darnold received clean snaps at a decent rate....his game caught fire, almost single handedly beating Houston and then Aaron Rodgers after leading a last second game winning drive in Buffalo.

Yeah, like you say “build a fortress” around the kid.....and it won’t even be fair to the rest of the league.

Great points ??

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On 1/4/2019 at 6:11 PM, CrazyCarl40 said:

Damien Woody, James Carpenter, Kevin Mawae, Jumbo Elliot. I know I’m forgetting a really solid guard too. Pete Kendall was it or was he bad? Someone remind me. But anyway, I feel like offensive line is actually one of the better places to get free agents. 

You're thinking of Faneca who we let go one year early for absolutely no reason.

The problem I see with your list is it goes back many years when Olineman would shake free. In todays NFL with the ever increasing cap good teams are not letting players like that go anymore. Also the only two you listed that I thought were elite was Woody and obviously Mawae. Carpenter and Jumbo were just above the mediocre level. 

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I'd also love too bring in a guy like Donovan Smith if Tampa lets him shake free. He's started every single game at LT since being a second round selection four years ago. He's 25 and has graded out better every year he has been in the NFL. Bonus point is he's also from Hempstead. 

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11 hours ago, JoeWillieWhiteShoesHOF said:

Yup.  Can you just imagine Darnold being able to sit in the pocket scanning the entire field being able to go through all his progressions? (that are actually already lightning fast at 21 years old, remember Sanchez? 1st Read covered, end of play, didn’t even know what a progression was, couldn’t even hit his check down in the back field in stride, if he hit the check down in the back field at all, what an incredible difference).

He made a ton of big play “off-schedule” plays already this year, but mostly out of necessity, idiot coach is playing a guy, FOR 9 GAMES, who is firing snaps over his head or into the ground, Darnold can’t even see the play develop half the time haha...the only thing that finally stopped it was embarrassment I think, Ian Eagle and Dan Fouts finally called Bowles out, giggling as to “what in the world is this coach thinking?” As the camera panned and stayed on Bowles.

Then when a semi competent Center was FINALLY put in, and Darnold received clean snaps at a decent rate....his game caught fire, almost single handedly beating Houston and then Aaron Rodgers after leading a last second game winning drive in Buffalo.

Yeah, like you say “build a fortress” around the kid.....and it won’t even be fair to the rest of the league.

I fear  Mac is too stubborn to change. He has been out to prove he will find gem OL in late rounds, sign bargain B/C tier OL believing they will come around to A level. Non of this has happened in 4 years.. Johnsons May have to fire mac next offseason if he does not upgrade the OL.

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36 minutes ago, Jetsplayer21 said:

I fear  Mac is too stubborn to change. He has been out to prove he will find gem OL in late rounds, sign bargain B/C tier OL believing they will come around to A level. Non of this has happened in 4 years.. Johnsons May have to fire mac next offseason if he does not upgrade the OL.

I don't think you need to worry about that.

I think, and even if the Johnsons were too stupid to see that they have in their control a Crown Jewel of a QB and I don't think they are that stupid, they would at least have flunkies who would alert them to that fact, and when this is totally realized Maccagnan will be busted down to coffee boy, he'll keep the GM label, but if they are smart enough, and this is just easy good business sense, they pay and hire a REAL HC like McCarthy, then all units needed to support Sam Darnold will be acknowledged and be the 1ST UPGRADED.  Maccagnan won't have as much say in the draft anymore as you think.  A lot of his retaining his job right now I think centered on the fact that little bro Chris didn't want to look stupid having to fire both Maccagnan and Bowles only a year after handed them BOTH extensions.

Think about it, the 1st Miami game, Cleveland (Bowles tries to run clock with 40 minutes left), Houston (Darnold SINGLE HANDEDLY "wins" game, Bowles D craters and loses it in the last minute), Green Bay (Darnold SINGLE HANDEDLY "wins" game, Bowles D craters and loses it, last minute and OT)....that's easily an 8 WIN season for the Jets 2018 was.  Darnold only played about 3/4 of it too.

Even with the WORST COACHING STAFF IMAGINABLE, A HORRIFIC FRONT OFFICE AND THEIR "SCOUTS", A BOTTOM FEEDING ROSTER....Sam Darnold virtually put all of that on his back and the Jets for all intents and purposes were an 8-8 team....not all that far off from the "Tournament" as some people think.

At this point a Fantasy Football Whiz Kid could make the Jets a play-off team...because the Jets got a fantastic Franchise QB...even an idiot couldn't mess this up at this point.

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Damien Woody, James Carpenter, Kevin Mawae, Jumbo Elliot. I know I’m forgetting a really solid guard too. Pete Kendall was it or was he bad? Someone remind me. But anyway, I feel like offensive line is actually one of the better places to get free agents. 


Faneca
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On 1/5/2019 at 4:22 AM, BurnleyJet said:

Watching  that ESNY film break down, against the Pat's, It showed how they Dominated the A gap.

I think Macc tried to get by with a second tier FA in Long and it backfired. We need a Center and need to over pay for Paradis.

Overpay for Paradis, Trent Brown and Jamon Brown

 

Suddenly we have a top 10 OL

 

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6 hours ago, Jetsplayer21 said:

I fear  Mac is too stubborn to change. He has been out to prove he will find gem OL in late rounds, sign bargain B/C tier OL believing they will come around to A level. Non of this has happened in 4 years.. Johnsons May have to fire mac next offseason if he does not upgrade the OL.

Could just be Macc is retarded.  He passed on Cam Robinson for a safety and that’s considered his best move

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The Texans never used to draft O-Line which is why many of their Qb's used to get beat up.  McCagnan was part of that organization.  He has not proven to have learned from those mistakes.  Yesterday's games proved that we have to build a solid OLINE:  Colts offensive line took over that game and the Dallas Offensive Line was tremendous.

I shake my head when I think what our O-line could have been with players like Elfein (Center) Ethan Pociac, Cam Robinson, Orlando Brown JR., the kid with the gas mask that went undrafted to Dallas.

I will give credit to Long for recognizing his skill set was better suited for Guard than Center.  He actually had pretty good athleticism on pulling plays.

Time to build the trenches again.  I would love this in the draft:  Jonah Williams (Alabama), Cotton (Alabama), Michael Jordan (Ohio State) and I would try to resign the Center we had from USC who the Broncos took from our Practice Squad if available.

 

 

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On 1/4/2019 at 6:43 PM, nycdan said:

That's why not even talking to Andrew Norwell last year was mind-boggling.  Best FA Guard on the market in years.  Not a peep from Jets who stand pat.  

My recollection is that Norwell had no interest in the Jets. He was given a massive contract by the Jaguars, then proceeded to be mediocre at best until he injured his calf and was placed in IR at the end of November. Norwell was a real disappointment.

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46 minutes ago, NYDreamer said:

The Texans never used to draft O-Line which is why many of their Qb's used to get beat up.  McCagnan was part of that organization.  He has not proven to have learned from those mistakes.  Yesterday's games proved that we have to build a solid OLINE:  Colts offensive line took over that game and the Dallas Offensive Line was tremendous.

I shake my head when I think what our O-line could have been with players like Elfein (Center) Ethan Pociac, Cam Robinson, Orlando Brown JR., the kid with the gas mask that went undrafted to Dallas.

I will give credit to Long for recognizing his skill set was better suited for Guard than Center.  He actually had pretty good athleticism on pulling plays.

Time to build the trenches again.  I would love this in the draft:  Jonah Williams (Alabama), Cotton (Alabama), Michael Jordan (Ohio State) and I would try to resign the Center we had from USC who the Broncos took from our Practice Squad if available.

 

 

Don’t forget the rex yrs also.. David de Castro was a cant miss stud, but rex wanted D of course and we blew it on couples. But because rex and his gm lackey ignored OL so much, that should have been priority number 1, instead it is no priority even 4 years later because mac is a stubborn moron.  

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On 1/4/2019 at 9:21 PM, jetstream23 said:

A realistic but challenging plan....

Sign Center Matt Paradis.

Slide Long permanently to Left Guard and backup Center.  Let Carpenter walk.

Draft Jonah Williams to play RT in 2019.

Compete Shell against both Winters and Long at OG for 2019 and let him play backup RT to Williams.

Beachum for one more year at LT until sliding Williams over there in 2020.  Shell goes back to RT.

2019

LT - Beachum

LG - Long

C - Paradis

RG - Winters

RT - Williams

 

In 2019 you'd likely have upgraded LG (Carpenter to Long), Center (Long to Paradis) and RT (Shell to Williams)

2020

LT - J. Williams

LG - Long (or FA or Draft pick)

C - Paradis

RG - Winters (or FA or Draft pick)

RT - Shell

In Spring of 2019, the Jets would probably look at a FA or draft upgrade for at least one of the OG spots.  Get younger and get better while hopefully having Center, Left Tackle and Right Tackle locked down.

I can live with this but my one question for you is this: Do you not like Shell, or do you think the injury won't be healed by minicamp like it should be?

Could be wrong but I was under the impression that he was our best OL. With Williams being talked about as a guard at the next level I'm surprised you wouldn't want to have consistency with Shell on the line.

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1 hour ago, bla bla bla said:

I can live with this but my one question for you is this: Do you not like Shell, or do you think the injury won't be healed by minicamp like it should be?

Could be wrong but I was under the impression that he was our best OL. With Williams being talked about as a guard at the next level I'm surprised you wouldn't want to have consistency with Shell on the line.

Really like Shell.  My outline was based on him returning from injury and the fact that we'd want to get Jonah Williams on the field at RT.  There would be other variants here IF...

- Williams was ready to play LT immediately as evidenced in Training Camp which likely puts Shell in at RT

- Shell could overtake one of the OG spots, likely Long and get on the field

- J. Williams might play at LG next to Beachum as a rookie to get experience on the left side without going to LT right away

Adding Jonah Williams really brings the focus to the Jets true problem.  They DO NOT have a single horrible OLineman.  What they have is a lot of subpar/mediocre guys across the board.  With Williams in the mix with those 5 other guys the Jets would be shuffling to get the 5 best onto the field in the most optimal spots.  While the long term would be LT Williams and RT Shell, for 2019 we'd still have Beachum and he's a starting caliber guy (even if he's not great).  Just my opinion.

Adding Paradis in FA and Williams in the Draft would be a home run for the Jets.  They'd dramatically improve the two most important OLine spots in LT and C.

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On 1/4/2019 at 6:53 PM, Beerfish said:

the utter disgrace of macs tenure is all i can say.

John Idzik drafted two olineman that are still on the team in two drafts.  Mac one in 4.

he takes flyers on late round CBs,

He has guys like Qvale who are just brutal when ever they have to play on the line for years.

ever wonder why in camp leo and sheppard and the rest of our dline  'can't be blocked?'

Bowles took flyers on late rnd cbs. Bowles being gone will improve our offensive draft picks. Book it.

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4 hours ago, Long Island Leprechaun said:

My recollection is that Norwell had no interest in the Jets. He was given a massive contract by the Jaguars, then proceeded to be mediocre at best until he injured his calf and was placed in IR at the end of November. Norwell was a real disappointment.

I hadn't heard he wasn't interested in the Jets.  I never heard his name mentioned once by anyone in our early FA contacts.  He did get injured and may not have worked out as JAX hoped but I'm more concerned that it never even seemed to be on our radar to reach out to him.

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On 1/4/2019 at 7:42 PM, Villain The Foe said:

No. Trade down and draft your olinemen. Free agency is a trap

Randy Thomas and Kareem Mckenzie say hello  :-)

I actually agree with you for the most part, but I'd really like Paradis in FA though. He's a stud.

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