Jetsfan80 Posted January 14, 2019 Share Posted January 14, 2019 Gase became the Broncos' QB Coach in 2011. He was promoted to OC in 2013, and maintained that level or higher thru 2018. He was also a QB Coach for the Lions in 2007, but we'll go ahead and ignore that as part of our analysis here. Here's how the offense's he's been with have ranked. We'll also look at how they did the years before he arrived and after he left, for comparison. Broncos (QB Coach 2011-12; OC 2013-14) 2010 (prior to promotion to QB Coach -- WR's coach) QB's: Kyle Orton (13 games); Tim Tebow (3 games) Weighted Offense Rank: # 17 Pass Rank: # 10 2011 (QB Coach) QB's: Tim Tebow (11 games); Kyle Orton (5 games) Weighted Offense Rank: # 20 Pass Rank: # 26 2012 (QB Coach) QB's: Peyton Manning (16 games) Weighted Offense Rank: # 3 Pass Rank: # 2 2013 (Offensive Coordinator) QB's: Peyton Manning (16 games) Weighted Offense Rank: # 1 Pass Rank: # 1 2014 (Offensive Coordinator) QB's: Peyton Manning (16 games) Weighted Offense Rank: # 4 Pass Rank: # 4 2015 (New OC: Rick Dennison) QB's: Peyton Manning (9 games); Brock Osweiler (7 games) Weighted Offense Rank: # 18 Pass Rank: # 25 Bears (OC 2015) 2014 (Previous OC: Aaron Kromer) QB's: Jay Cutler (15 games); Jimmy Clausen (1 game) Weighted Offense Rank: # 19 Pass Rank: # 16 2015 (Offensive Coordinator) QB's: Jay Cutler (15 games); Jimmy Clausen (1 game) Weighted Offense Rank: # 9 Pass Rank: # 13 2016 (New OC: Dowell Loggains) QB's: Matt Barkley (6 games); Jay Cutler (5 games); Brian Hoyer (5 games) Weighted Offense Rank: # 20 Pass Rank: # 20 Miami Dolphins (HC 2016-18) 2014 (HC: Joe Philbin; OC: Bill Lazor) QB's: Ryan Tannehill (16 games) Weighted Offense Rank: # 7 Pass Rank: # 11 2015 (HC: Joe Philbin/Dan Campbell; OC: Bill Lazor/Zac Taylor) QB's: Ryan Tannehill (16 games) Weighted Offense Rank: # 19 Pass Rank: # 24 2016 (HC) QB's: Ryan Tannehill (13 games); Matt Moore (3 games) Weighted Offense Rank: # 10 Pass Rank: # 16 2017 (HC) QB's: Jay Cutler (14 games); Matt Moore (2 games) Weighted Offense Rank: # 26 Pass Rank: # 23 2018 (HC) QB's: Ryan Tannehill (11 games); Brock Osweiler (5 games) Weighted Offense Rank: # 26 Pass Rank: # 27 Observations It's hard to take much of anything from the Broncos years, other than to say it was pretty impressive that Gase got so much out of Peyton in that 2014 season, when Manning's body started to fail him. They won the Super Bowl without Gase, but that wasn't exactly due to Rick Dennison. The most interesting data was the difference between the 2014 Bears (prior to Gase) and the 2015 Bears (with Gase as OC) because both seasons featured the same QB's playing the same number of games. The Bears showed a marked improvement, moving up from 19 to 9 in weighted offense and # 16 to # 13 in passing offense. Good look for Gase here. Dowell Loggains probably sucks in his own right. But this is Gase's show. I decided to include the numbers from BOTH the 2014 and 2015 Dolphins' seasons, since the 2015 season featured a midseason coaching change. Last season's efforts with Tannehill were not fruitful for Gase, which is highly disappointing. You would think he could do more with him than the 2014-15 staff did, but that was not in the cards. I won't bash Gase for failing so badly with Cutler in their 2nd go-round together. Cutler was physically done. Overall, I was hoping for better. It seems clear that Gase is a very good OC, but he's far from a miracle worker. Darnold is probably the 2nd best QB he'll have gotten to work with in his career, so that makes a big difference. I just fail to be impressed by his overall resume, both as OC and as a HC. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Skeptable Posted January 14, 2019 Share Posted January 14, 2019 So when he had an elite QB he was one of the best in the league... When he had horrible QBs he was middle of the road or worse.... this tells us nothing really Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jetsfan80 Posted January 14, 2019 Author Share Posted January 14, 2019 4 minutes ago, Skeptable said: So when he had an elite QB he was one of the best in the league... When he had horrible QBs he was middle of the road or worse.... this tells us nothing really These tell us something, because they show how offenses with some of the same QB's did with different coaches: Bears (OC 2015) 2014 (Previous OC: Aaron Kromer) QB's: Jay Cutler (15 games); Jimmy Clausen (1 game) Weighted Offense Rank: # 19 Pass Rank: # 16 2015 (Gase as Offensive Coordinator) QB's: Jay Cutler (15 games); Jimmy Clausen (1 game) Weighted Offense Rank: # 9 Pass Rank: # 13 Miami Dolphins (HC 2016-18) 2014 (HC: Joe Philbin; OC: Bill Lazor) QB's: Ryan Tannehill (16 games) Weighted Offense Rank: # 7 Pass Rank: # 11 2016 (Gase as HC) QB's: Ryan Tannehill (13 games); Matt Moore (3 games) Weighted Offense Rank: # 10 Pass Rank: # 16 2018 (Gase as HC) QB's: Ryan Tannehill (11 games); Brock Osweiler (5 games) Weighted Offense Rank: # 26 Pass Rank: # 27 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Skeptable Posted January 14, 2019 Share Posted January 14, 2019 4 minutes ago, Jetsfan80 said: These tell us something, because they show how offenses with some of the same QB's did with different coaches: Bears (OC 2015) 2014 (Previous OC: Aaron Kromer) QB's: Jay Cutler (15 games); Jimmy Clausen (1 game) Weighted Offense Rank: # 19 Pass Rank: # 16 2015 (Gase as Offensive Coordinator) QB's: Jay Cutler (15 games); Jimmy Clausen (1 game) Weighted Offense Rank: # 9 Pass Rank: # 13 Miami Dolphins (HC 2016-18) 2014 (HC: Joe Philbin; OC: Bill Lazor) QB's: Ryan Tannehill (16 games) Weighted Offense Rank: # 7 Pass Rank: # 11 2016 (Gase as HC) QB's: Ryan Tannehill (13 games); Matt Moore (3 games) Weighted Offense Rank: # 10 Pass Rank: # 16 2018 (Gase as HC) QB's: Ryan Tannehill (11 games); Brock Osweiler (5 games) Weighted Offense Rank: # 26 Pass Rank: # 27 Your right it helps understand but it doesn't prove or disprove future success. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Patriot Killa Posted January 15, 2019 Share Posted January 15, 2019 2016 Miami didn’t have bad rankings. #10 in weighted offense is good. I think by 2017/2018 it started to fall apart one way or another. Traded players, injuries, ect. Not making excuses, I mean, it’s clearly unacceptable to make excuses for any NFL coach. You either get it done or you don’t but it’s okay to use context and fairness to a certain extent as well. Judging by 2014 and 2015 stats for Ryan Tannehill, he has been an up and down QB despite actually having decent career numbers. he had the same OC in Bill Lazor and Miami went from #11 in pass rank to #24 in just one year. Fast forward to Gase’s go around with Tannehill... 2016’s pass rank is #16 and 2018’s is #27. I’d also like to note that Tannehill did have his best overall QBR rating for a season under Gase in 16’. So while this doesn’t necessarily attribute to what JetsFan80 is trying to show in this thread. Tannehill’s efficiency and QBR did jump up into the 90’s and hold steady from 2016-18. Prior to Gace, he was 76.1(2012), 81.7(2013), 92.8(2014), 88.7(2015). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Patriot Killa Posted January 15, 2019 Share Posted January 15, 2019 What he did with Jay Cutler in Chicago is probably his biggest achievement because he actually really had to be the man making the gears turn considering Cutler is no Peyton Manning nor was he anything close to Peyton Manning. Second biggest achievement is being creative enough for Peyton and his guys. At first I thought..no way should Gase get credit for Peyton’s success...and it’s true that, mostly, he shouldn’t. But looking at 2012 when someone else was OC, Peyton threw 37 TD’s/11 INT’s. Fast forward to 2013..Gase becomes OC.. Peyton throws 55 TD’s/10 INT’s and a career high 5,477 yards. Was Peyton just balling or did Gase’s creativity, scheme, ability to get players open by design, ect — help Peyton reach such high statistics in his 2nd to last year in the league? I honestly don’t know. But it’s something to think about. I know he replicated the success the next year with Gase and then 2015, he completely fell off a cliff. Unfortunately, we can assume it was his age more than anything. On tape Peyton’s arm strength was gone. So who knows. Its very hard to tell because all and all, by the time Gase left Denver and Dennison took over, we never got to see a physically able version of Peyton Manning. So it’s hard to get a sensible read. I think Gase is a very capable OC but his QB coaching is still pending judgement. I know it’s pretty good. I don’t know if it’s what people claim it is. We just have to find out..I am confident we have a capable offensive play caller though. He does do well with his WR’s. That’s an underrated quality of Gase. Scheming them open and finding mismatches is something I have read that he does well. Again, we’ll just have to see what happens in NY and forget about the rest. I think we have some good starting pieces for him to work with. Enunwa, Robby and Herndon can work. Add Bell and a few others...consider a Darnold leap...could get some decent play out of the offense. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jgb Posted January 15, 2019 Share Posted January 15, 2019 Tannehill and Orton have two things in common. The second is that they are both criminally underrated. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FidelioJet Posted January 15, 2019 Share Posted January 15, 2019 What this shows, if anything, Gase has been average at best. He hasn't taken an underperforming QB and turned him around or taken an underperforming offense and turned it around. Add that to his issue with the players and supposedly somewhat unstable personality this hire continues to baffle me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CTM Posted January 15, 2019 Share Posted January 15, 2019 19 hours ago, Jetsfan80 said: These tell us something, because they show how offenses with some of the same QB's did with different coaches: Bears (OC 2015) 2014 (Previous OC: Aaron Kromer) QB's: Jay Cutler (15 games); Jimmy Clausen (1 game) Weighted Offense Rank: # 19 Pass Rank: # 16 2015 (Gase as Offensive Coordinator) QB's: Jay Cutler (15 games); Jimmy Clausen (1 game) Weighted Offense Rank: # 9 Pass Rank: # 13 Miami Dolphins (HC 2016-18) 2014 (HC: Joe Philbin; OC: Bill Lazor) QB's: Ryan Tannehill (16 games) Weighted Offense Rank: # 7 Pass Rank: # 11 2016 (Gase as HC) QB's: Ryan Tannehill (13 games); Matt Moore (3 games) Weighted Offense Rank: # 10 Pass Rank: # 16 2018 (Gase as HC) QB's: Ryan Tannehill (11 games); Brock Osweiler (5 games) Weighted Offense Rank: # 26 Pass Rank: # 27 Great and all but seeing as how Bill Walsh wasn't available why not compare it to the other applicants? By your criteria, I'm not seeing anyone that is far and away better than Gase, so what is your point exactly? Near as I can tell these guys struggle to field legit offenses without great QB's, that's true whether your name is Monken, McCarthy or Gace Monken: 2016-2018 TB OC 2015 FO: 17 Prior season 2016 FO: 19 2017 FO: 11 2018 FO: 12 Summary: Went from Average to Average (for clarity, ranking 1-5 = great, 5-10 = good, 10-20 = average, 20-27 = bad, 27-32 terrible) LeFleur 2018 TN OC (Not including his 1 year with McVay, that is McVay's offense) 2017 FO: 18 Prior season 2018 FO: 22 Summary: Went from Average to bad McCarthy Saints 2000-2004 Prior (terrible under Ditka, 30's) 2000 FO: 19 2001 FO: 21 2002 FO: 23 2003 FO: 13 2004 FO: 26 Summary: Went from terrible to bad with an average season thrown in 49ers OC 2005 2004 FO: 29 Prior season 2005 FO: 32 Summary: Went from terrible to terrible Packers 2006-2018 2003 FO: 8 Prior season 2004 FO: 6 Prior season 2005 FO: 16 (down year, but same QB all 3 years) Prior season 2006 FO: 19 2007 FO: 5 Summary: 2 bad Favre years with average offenses, one under him one before him sandwiched by strong offenses. The Rodgers years were of course prolific (however similiar to Gase's years with Manning). Outside of the past season with Mahommes, Rodgers is the most talented QB I've ever seen. The question here really is did McCarthy create him or was Rodgers always going to be great? The physical talent is undeniable, I think McCarthy played a very minor role and Rodgers would've been a phenom on just about any team that wasn't completely dysfunctional (like the Jests) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jack48 Posted January 15, 2019 Share Posted January 15, 2019 17 hours ago, Skeptable said: So when he had an elite QB he was one of the best in the league... When he had horrible QBs he was middle of the road or worse.... this tells us nothing really Or you can read it this way: when he has an accomplished passer and decision maker running his offense, results can be very promising. When he has a tomato can back there, they struggle. Sam is no tomato can Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scott Dierking Posted January 15, 2019 Share Posted January 15, 2019 Where have the Jets offenses ranked during these years? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scott Dierking Posted January 15, 2019 Share Posted January 15, 2019 19 minutes ago, CTM said: Great and all but seeing as how Bill Walsh wasn't available why not compare it to the other applicants? By your criteria, I'm not seeing anyone that is far and away better than Gase, so what is your point exactly? Near as I can tell these guys struggle to field legit offenses without great QB's, that's true whether your name is Monken, McCarthy or Gace Monken: 2016-2018 TB OC 2015 FO: 17 Prior season 2016 FO: 19 2017 FO: 11 2018 FO: 12 Summary: Went from Average to Average (for clarity, ranking 1-5 = great, 5-10 = good, 10-20 = average, 20-27 = bad, 27-32 terrible) LeFleur 2018 TN OC (Not including his 1 year with McVay, that is McVay's offense) 2017 FO: 18 Prior season 2018 FO: 22 Summary: Went from Average to bad McCarthy Saints 2000-2004 Prior (terrible under Ditka, 30's) 2000 FO: 19 2001 FO: 21 2002 FO: 23 2003 FO: 13 2004 FO: 26 Summary: Went from terrible to bad with an average season thrown in 49ers OC 2005 2004 FO: 29 Prior season 2005 FO: 32 Summary: Went from terrible to terrible Packers 2006-2018 2003 FO: 8 Prior season 2004 FO: 6 Prior season 2005 FO: 16 (down year, but same QB all 3 years) Prior season 2006 FO: 19 2007 FO: 5 Summary: 2 bad Favre years with average offenses, one under him one before him sandwiched by strong offenses. The Rodgers years were of course prolific (however similiar to Gase's years with Manning). Outside of the past season with Mahommes, Rodgers is the most talented QB I've ever seen. The question here really is did McCarthy create him or was Rodgers always going to be great? The physical talent is undeniable, I think McCarthy played a very minor role and Rodgers would've been a phenom on just about any team that wasn't completely dysfunctional (like the Jests) Exactly this. I was about to do just this exercise, and thank you for saving me that trouble Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Xtina Posted January 15, 2019 Share Posted January 15, 2019 18 hours ago, Skeptable said: 2018 (Gase as HC) QB's: Ryan Tannehill (11 games); Brock Osweiler (5 games) Weighted Offense Rank: # 26 Pass Rank: # 27 But everyone keeps saying how great he did with effin Brock Osweiler for Chrissake Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scott Dierking Posted January 15, 2019 Share Posted January 15, 2019 21 minutes ago, CTM said: Great and all but seeing as how Bill Walsh wasn't available why not compare it to the other applicants? By your criteria, I'm not seeing anyone that is far and away better than Gase, so what is your point exactly? Near as I can tell these guys struggle to field legit offenses without great QB's, that's true whether your name is Monken, McCarthy or Gace Monken: 2016-2018 TB OC 2015 FO: 17 Prior season 2016 FO: 19 2017 FO: 11 2018 FO: 12 Summary: Went from Average to Average (for clarity, ranking 1-5 = great, 5-10 = good, 10-20 = average, 20-27 = bad, 27-32 terrible) LeFleur 2018 TN OC (Not including his 1 year with McVay, that is McVay's offense) 2017 FO: 18 Prior season 2018 FO: 22 Summary: Went from Average to bad McCarthy Saints 2000-2004 Prior (terrible under Ditka, 30's) 2000 FO: 19 2001 FO: 21 2002 FO: 23 2003 FO: 13 2004 FO: 26 Summary: Went from terrible to bad with an average season thrown in 49ers OC 2005 2004 FO: 29 Prior season 2005 FO: 32 Summary: Went from terrible to terrible Packers 2006-2018 2003 FO: 8 Prior season 2004 FO: 6 Prior season 2005 FO: 16 (down year, but same QB all 3 years) Prior season 2006 FO: 19 2007 FO: 5 Summary: 2 bad Favre years with average offenses, one under him one before him sandwiched by strong offenses. The Rodgers years were of course prolific (however similiar to Gase's years with Manning). Outside of the past season with Mahommes, Rodgers is the most talented QB I've ever seen. The question here really is did McCarthy create him or was Rodgers always going to be great? The physical talent is undeniable, I think McCarthy played a very minor role and Rodgers would've been a phenom on just about any team that wasn't completely dysfunctional (like the Jests) McCarthy alone, his last 4 years, team average offensive ranks: 2015 15 points, 23 yards 2016 4 points, 8 yards 2017 21 points, 26 yards 2018, 14 points, 12 yards (includes the games he was not coach, but you get the point) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dcat Posted January 15, 2019 Share Posted January 15, 2019 26 minutes ago, FidelioJet said: this hire continues to baffle me. yes, we know. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CTJetsFan Posted January 15, 2019 Share Posted January 15, 2019 18 hours ago, Jetsfan80 said: Gase became the Broncos' QB Coach in 2011. He was promoted to OC in 2013, and maintained that level or higher thru 2018. He was also a QB Coach for the Lions in 2007, but we'll go ahead and ignore that as part of our analysis here. Here's how the offense's he's been with have ranked. We'll also look at how they did the years before he arrived and after he left, for comparison. Broncos (QB Coach 2011-12; OC 2013-14) 2010 (prior to promotion to QB Coach -- WR's coach) QB's: Kyle Orton (13 games); Tim Tebow (3 games) Weighted Offense Rank: # 17 Pass Rank: # 10 2011 (QB Coach) QB's: Tim Tebow (11 games); Kyle Orton (5 games) Weighted Offense Rank: # 20 Pass Rank: # 26 2012 (QB Coach) QB's: Peyton Manning (16 games) Weighted Offense Rank: # 3 Pass Rank: # 2 2013 (Offensive Coordinator) QB's: Peyton Manning (16 games) Weighted Offense Rank: # 1 Pass Rank: # 1 2014 (Offensive Coordinator) QB's: Peyton Manning (16 games) Weighted Offense Rank: # 4 Pass Rank: # 4 2015 (New OC: Rick Dennison) QB's: Peyton Manning (9 games); Brock Osweiler (7 games) Weighted Offense Rank: # 18 Pass Rank: # 25 Bears (OC 2015) 2014 (Previous OC: Aaron Kromer) QB's: Jay Cutler (15 games); Jimmy Clausen (1 game) Weighted Offense Rank: # 19 Pass Rank: # 16 2015 (Offensive Coordinator) QB's: Jay Cutler (15 games); Jimmy Clausen (1 game) Weighted Offense Rank: # 9 Pass Rank: # 13 2016 (New OC: Dowell Loggains) QB's: Matt Barkley (6 games); Jay Cutler (5 games); Brian Hoyer (5 games) Weighted Offense Rank: # 20 Pass Rank: # 20 Miami Dolphins (HC 2016-18) 2014 (HC: Joe Philbin; OC: Bill Lazor) QB's: Ryan Tannehill (16 games) Weighted Offense Rank: # 7 Pass Rank: # 11 2015 (HC: Joe Philbin/Dan Campbell; OC: Bill Lazor/Zac Taylor) QB's: Ryan Tannehill (16 games) Weighted Offense Rank: # 19 Pass Rank: # 24 2016 (HC) QB's: Ryan Tannehill (13 games); Matt Moore (3 games) Weighted Offense Rank: # 10 Pass Rank: # 16 2017 (HC) QB's: Jay Cutler (14 games); Matt Moore (2 games) Weighted Offense Rank: # 26 Pass Rank: # 23 2018 (HC) QB's: Ryan Tannehill (11 games); Brock Osweiler (5 games) Weighted Offense Rank: # 26 Pass Rank: # 27 Observations It's hard to take much of anything from the Broncos years, other than to say it was pretty impressive that Gase got so much out of Peyton in that 2014 season, when Manning's body started to fail him. They won the Super Bowl without Gase, but that wasn't exactly due to Rick Dennison. The most interesting data was the difference between the 2014 Bears (prior to Gase) and the 2015 Bears (with Gase as OC) because both seasons featured the same QB's playing the same number of games. The Bears showed a marked improvement, moving up from 19 to 9 in weighted offense and # 16 to # 13 in passing offense. Good look for Gase here. Dowell Loggains probably sucks in his own right. But this is Gase's show. I decided to include the numbers from BOTH the 2014 and 2015 Dolphins' seasons, since the 2015 season featured a midseason coaching change. Last season's efforts with Tannehill were not fruitful for Gase, which is highly disappointing. You would think he could do more with him than the 2014-15 staff did, but that was not in the cards. I won't bash Gase for failing so badly with Cutler in their 2nd go-round together. Cutler was physically done. Overall, I was hoping for better. It seems clear that Gase is a very good OC, but he's far from a miracle worker. Darnold is probably the 2nd best QB he'll have gotten to work with in his career, so that makes a big difference. I just fail to be impressed by his overall resume, both as OC and as a HC. Just to expand on the point highlighted: I heard a comment yesterday about Manning's call to Chris Johnson. Manning supposedly said Gase (paraphrasing) did a fantastic job tailoring the Denver offense to what his capabilities were after the surgeries. Remember that the Peyton who joined the Broncos wasn't the same Peyton who played for the Colts (from a throwing perspective). https://www.washingtonpost.com/sports/redskins/peyton-manning-on-his-neck-surgeries-rehab--and-how-he-almost-didnt-make-it-back/2013/10/21/8e3b5ca6-3a55-11e3-b7ba-503fb5822c3e_story.html?noredirect=on&utm_term=.d97051385c8c Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jetsfan80 Posted January 15, 2019 Author Share Posted January 15, 2019 2 hours ago, CTM said: Great and all but seeing as how Bill Walsh wasn't available why not compare it to the other applicants? By your criteria, I'm not seeing anyone that is far and away better than Gase, so what is your point exactly? Near as I can tell these guys struggle to field legit offenses without great QB's, that's true whether your name is Monken, McCarthy or Gace I was merely trying to project forward what we might see. I've been told over and over that its time to move on, Gase is our coach now. So I at least wanted to satisfy my curiosity on whether he's the "QB Whisperer" some people are saying he is. The evidence available suggests that he's kind of a mixed bag. Thanks for doing the analysis of the other candidates though. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Philc1 Posted January 15, 2019 Share Posted January 15, 2019 4 hours ago, FidelioJet said: What this shows, if anything, Gase has been average at best. He hasn't taken an underperforming QB and turned him around or taken an underperforming offense and turned it around. Add that to his issue with the players and supposedly somewhat unstable personality this hire continues to baffle me. He made the playoffs with scrubs like Ryan Tannehill and Matt Moore. That's pretty impressive. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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