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3 Coordinators, No Head Coach


DMan77

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2 hours ago, DMan77 said:

I'm stealing this from SAR I's (Apologies, sir!) excellent Mike Francesa thread because I think it deserves it's own broader discussion.

It sounds very much from what we've heard and read that the Jets are going to be running more of a 3 coordinator system rather than a HC ->Coordinator -> Position coach hierarchy. Gase even basically said he wanted someone with a HC mentality to run the defense. They want someone who can work mostly independent of the HC so Gase can focus on the QB and the offense. 

It's an interesting idea, and it definitely takes the right kind of coaches and personalities. I think there are a lot of coaches (Bowles...) who would have a hard time turning that kind of control over and running this kind of system... Afterall, even if Gase has little to do with the defense he has Head Coach next to his name, so he'll still take the brunt of the criticism if it flounders. 

LA was the tip of the spear with this concept and it's worked... Maybe for once the Jets are getting in on the newest trends early.

It's a risky way to do things, but I'm excited to see how things play out. 

 

I think the wording here is more semantics than actual appointments. I get what you are saying but Gase IS the Head Coach. Will there be an OC? I would think so. Will he leave the major decisions for defense and ST to the coaches with those titles, more than likely. He may appoint an offensive minded coach who they may title assistant coach. 

Gase will be responsible for the duties and answer as the HC of the Jets. I’m not sure of the structure yet. But I don’t think we will have a 3 headed coaching staff that are equal in authority.

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28 minutes ago, MaxAF said:

I think the wording here is more semantics than actual appointments. I get what you are saying but Gase IS the Head Coach. Will there be an OC? I would think so. Will he leave the major decisions for defense and ST to the coaches with those titles, more than likely. He may appoint an offensive minded coach who they may title assistant coach. 

Gase will be responsible for the duties and answer as the HC of the Jets. I’m not sure of the structure yet. But I don’t think we will have a 3 headed coaching staff that are equal in authority.

Right... There are different ways to read into this and to speculate on how it'll play out.

I think for me, the way I read it is that basically Gase will be 85% disconnected from the defense and ST.

He will still have the responsibilities of a HC when it comes to building an overall team identity, keeping guys focused, making sure everyone understands and respects the plan, making sure everyone knows the rules, practice times, and what he expects of them, etc... For sure I think he takes those seriously.

But game to game on the field I think he only has the offensive play card in his hand. And at practice I think maybe he meets with Williams, gets an idea on what the plan is, and then leaves him to it.

 

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58 minutes ago, dbatesman said:

I asked if Gase has hiring and firing power over his staff. You quoted me and said something about Sean McVay and Wade Phillips. I took it as a no.

Why wouldn't Gase have hiring/firing power over his staff like every other known head coach in the league?

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1 hour ago, dbatesman said:

I asked if Gase has hiring and firing power over his staff. You quoted me and said something about Sean McVay and Wade Phillips. I took it as a no.

Do you think McVay can fire Wade Phillips? What about Sean Payton, can he fire Dennis Allen?

Gee, come to think of it, I wonder if Arians can fire Bowles after next season?

You see why all of these questions are equally silly?

3 minutes ago, dbatesman said:

Because we were trying to hire him before we hired Gase.

 

 

And? I don't see why that means that Gase wouldn't be able to fire him.  According to Macc as well as the owner, Gase is in charge of the staff. 

Also, according to Rappaport, Williams was Gase's "top choice."

 

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Is dick curl still alive?

Who's managing the clock and calling TO's ? Will Williams will be calling Defensive TO's and Gase Offensive TO's.... 
HC needs to watching when the opposing  offense calls out of a play and we do not have the proper Defense to cover. Does Williams call that TO?
What about "Challenges" Will Gase be watching the "D" and challenge a call?
Curious to see how this all plays out.


Sent from my Pixel 2 using JetNation.com mobile app

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Why do people keep saying things like "offensive coach X knows nothing about defense" or "defensive coach Y knows nothing about offense."

Something tells me it would be difficult for an offensive mastermind to attack defenses if he doesn't understand them... Seems equally difficult to stop offenses you know nothing about.

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6 minutes ago, UntouchableCrew said:

Why do people keep saying things like "offensive coach X knows nothing about defense" or "defensive coach Y knows nothing about offense."

Something tells me it would be difficult for an offensive mastermind to attack defenses if he doesn't understand them... Seems equally difficult to stop offenses you know nothing about.

The legend goes that when buddy Ryan was with the jets he sat in on some offensive meetings and saw how much time they spent going over protecting the QB so he decided to try to find a new way to attack pass protection 

 

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56 minutes ago, slimjasi said:

Do you think McVay can fire Wade Phillips? What about Sean Payton, can he fire Dennis Allen?

Gee, come to think of it, I wonder if Arians can fire Bowles after next season?

 You see why all of these questions are equally silly?

Not really, no. This team’s power structure has been ****ed six ways from Sunday for a decade. This hiring process hasn’t made me feel any better about that, and neither does you saying McVay Payton Arians and pretending it’s an argument.

56 minutes ago, slimjasi said:

And? I don't see why that means that Gase wouldn't be able to fire him.  According to Macc as well as the owner, Gase is in charge of the staff. 

 Also, according to Rappaport, Williams was Gase's "top choice."

Well, I’m certainly glad that the guy we were pursuing before we hired Gase turned out to be Gase’s top choice. That really worked out well!

I don’t really trust anything Maccagnan or Johnson says on this, especially given the many and various rumors about the team insisting on some level of input or even control over coordinator hires, coupled with Schefter’s report that we were pursuing Williams before we hired a head coach. To answer my own question: if the defense sh*ts the bed this season and Gase wanted to fire Williams, I feel pretty confident in saying he would need Maccagnan’s (or maybe even Johnson's) permission to do so.

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2 minutes ago, dbatesman said:

Not really, no. This team’s power structure has been ****ed six ways from Sunday for a decade. This hiring process hasn’t made me feel any better, and neither does you saying McVay Payton Arians and pretending it’s an argument.

Well, I’m certainly glad that the guy we were pursuing before we hired Gase turned out to be Gase’s top choice. That really worked out well!

I don’t really trust anything Maccagnan or Johnson says on this, especially given the many and various rumors about the team insisting on some level of input or even control over coordinator hires, coupled with Schefter’s report that we were pursuing Williams before we hired a head coach. To answer my own question: if the defense sh*ts the bed this season and Gase wanted to fire Williams, I feel pretty confident in saying he would need Maccagnan’s permission to do so.

The fact of that matter is that the Jets current coaching hierarchy resembles that of a multitude of other organizations. Furthermore, some of these organizations have recently enjoyed a great deal of success, and in fact, at least two of them are playing for the right to go to the Superbowl on Sunday. I made a point to cite these organizations (and their respective coaches) as evidence of the fact that, at least on the surface, the Jets don't appear to be doing anything out of the ordinary. 

It seems like you are the one pretending that common practices around the league are somehow irrelevant to the discussion at hand. 

Considering that it would be extremely unconventional for the head coach to not have the authority to fire his own coordinators, I will wait for some actual evidence of this being the case with the Jets before I bother worrying about it. 

 

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2 hours ago, slimjasi said:

The fact of that matter is that the Jets current coaching hierarchy resembles that of a multitude of other organizations. Furthermore, some of these organizations have recently enjoyed a great deal of success, and in fact, at least two of them are playing for the right to go to the Superbowl on Sunday. I made a point to cite these organizations (and their respective coaches) as evidence of the fact that, at least on the surface, the Jets don't appear to be doing anything out of the ordinary. 

It seems like you are the one pretending that common practices around the league are somehow irrelevant to the discussion at hand. 

Considering that it would be extremely unconventional for the head coach to not have the authority to fire his own coordinators, I will wait for some actual evidence of this being the case with the Jets before I bother worrying about it. 

I'm not pretending anything. I don't care about common practices around the league because our owners are morons who have a lengthy history of meddling in things like this with disastrous results, and our GM is a moron whose very existence seems to produce disastrous results. I mean, it would also be extremely unconventional to retain a GM with a 24-40 record and no playoff appearances, and then allow him to hire a coach, and yet here we are. So I guess I'm going to wait for some actual evidence of the Jets being competent in any way before I stop worrying about it.

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14 minutes ago, dbatesman said:

. So I guess I'm going to wait for some actual evidence of the Jets being competent in any way before I stop worrying about it.

We weren't discussing "competence," though. (I wouldn't be surprised at all to see the Jets continue to perform incompetently over the next several years. Time will tell)

We were discussing whether Gase has the authority to choose his assistants. According to the owner, the GM, and Gase himself, he does. Also, Gase's comments on Sirius today indicated that he hired Williams. 

Additionally, it's worth noting that Gase has apparently been given free rein to bring in whoever he wants on the offensive side of the ball (Unless you believe the Jets forced Dowell Loggains on him, as well?). 

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29 minutes ago, slimjasi said:

We weren't discussing "competence," though. (I wouldn't be surprised at all to see the Jets continue to perform incompetently over the next several years. Time will tell)

We were discussing whether Gase has the authority to choose his assistants. According to the owner, the GM, and Gase himself, he does. Also, Gase's comments on Sirius today indicated that he hired Williams. 

Additionally, it's worth noting that Gase has apparently been given free rein to bring in whoever he wants on the offensive side of the ball (Unless you believe the Jets forced Dowell Loggains on him, as well?). 

I think Gase has the authority to hire and fire anyone he wants as long as they’re on the offensive side (which is kind of the point of this thread). It’s great that Gase says he hired Williams and that Williams was his first choice, but it sure is a funny coincidence that Williams also happens to be the guy Johnson and Maccagnan identified as their top DC candidate before they even hired a head coach. 

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29 minutes ago, dbatesman said:

I think Gase has the authority to hire and fire anyone he wants as long as they’re on the offensive side (which is kind of the point of this thread). It’s great that Gase says he hired Williams and that Williams was his first choice, but it sure is a funny coincidence that Williams also happens to be the guy Johnson and Maccagnan identified as their top DC candidate before they even hired a head coach. 

Well, to be fair both guys seem to be no nonsense and abrasive pricks who want players who live for football. Williams was also one of the biggest names available. I get your point but I dont think its entirely unbelievable that Gase wouldve been down with this hire.

Its not like Mac/CJ suggested retaining Rodgers or bringing Al Groh out of mothballs and Gase was like omg I was thinking the same thing 

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31 minutes ago, dbatesman said:

I think Gase has the authority to hire and fire anyone he wants as long as they’re on the offensive side (which is kind of the point of this thread). It’s great that Gase says he hired Williams and that Williams was his first choice, but it sure is a funny coincidence that Williams also happens to be the guy Johnson and Maccagnan identified as their top DC candidate before they even hired a head coach

Is is really so hard to believe that Gase wanted the same guy the Jets did - a guy who the Redskins also desperately wanted - a guy who is known to be one of the more respected defensive coordinators in the league? Doesn't seem like much of a coincidence to me. 

And, again, where is the evidence to suggest that the Jets forced Williams on Gase? Schefter's tweet? What about Rappaport's tweet (which flat out said that Gase wanted Williams)? What about Gase's very pointed comments on Williams? 

Believe what you want, but it doesn't sound to me like anyone forced Gase to hire Gregg Williams. 

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7 hours ago, bitonti said:


 

 


I like how the disciplinarian crowd kills bowles for punishing players who were late but have no issue with Gase allowing Chris Foerster turn the offensive line meeting room into studio 54.
Adam gase is either unaware or extremely permissive.

Say what you want about Todd Bowles, his assistant coaches never made TMZ

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If only they had a chance at reasonable blow and hookers. A cruise to Subic Bay, perhaps, to break this new ground....

https://nypost.com/2019/01/16/us-sub-commander-relieved-of-duty-after-hiring-10-prostitutes/?utm_source=facebook_sitebuttons&utm_medium=site+buttons&utm_campaign=site+buttons&fbclid=IwAR3-M7BvEd5szzqp8l_ZnEdXgoVAqbVI448XWrEDHcxznHG8bl_Q5cRXoRE

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8 hours ago, dbatesman said:

Cool, cool. Hey so what if the defense takes a huge step back next season and Gase wants to fire Williams. Is he allowed to do that?

Not sure what the defense could possibly do to warrant a step back. I don't know if it's even possible.

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30 minutes ago, CTM said:

Well, to be fair both guys seem to be no nonsense and abrasive pricks who want players who live for football. Williams was also one of the biggest names available. I get your point but I dont think its entirely unbelievable that Gase wouldve been down with this hire.

Its not like Mac/CJ suggested retaining Rodgers or bringing Al Groh out of mothballs and Gase was like omg I was thinking the same thing 

My issue isn’t with Williams himself, or with Gase for that matter. It’s with the whole stupid process.

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19 minutes ago, slimjasi said:

Is is really so hard to believe that Gase wanted the same guy the Jets did - a guy who the Redskins also desperately wanted - a guy who is known to be one of the more respected defensive coordinators in the league? Doesn't seem like much of a coincidence to me. 

And, again, where is the evidence to suggest that the Jets forced Williams on Gase? Schefter's tweet? What about Rappaport's tweet (which flat out said that Gase wanted Williams)? What about Gase's very pointed comments on Williams? 

Believe what you want, but it doesn't sound to me like anyone forced Gase to hire Gregg Williams. 

I don’t think Williama was forced on him per se, but I think the fact that the team was “targeting [him] no matter who their HC was” makes it lucky that they strongly suggested Williams as a DC candidate, especially since it comports with the kind of dumbass crap Woody has done before. My larger point is not really about Williams himself, but with a process where the owner are scouting DCs before they have a head coach. Regardless of what happened with Williams specifically, it makes me feel icky about the whole process, and dubious that any of this will work.

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3 minutes ago, dbatesman said:

My issue isn’t with Williams himself, or with Gase for that matter. It’s with the whole stupid process.

I'm more or less convinced Mac wanted Rhule to be his bitch, and when Rhuke said gfy Mac pushed CJ to Gase over McCarthy 

Reports today that perhaps Gase reports to Mac(what other change could it be) only strengthan my belief that Mac has CJ's ear.

This was always going to be some kind of problem when Mac was retained but I dont think Gase is going to be passive when/if things start going sideways

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5 minutes ago, dbatesman said:

I don’t think Williama was forced on him per se, but I think the fact that the team was “targeting [him] no matter who their HC was” makes it lucky that they strongly suggested Williams as a DC candidate, especially since it comports with the kind of dumbass crap Woody has done before. My larger point is not really about Williams himself, but with a process where the owner are scouting DCs before they have a head coach. Regardless of what happened with Williams specifically, it makes me feel icky about the whole process, and dubious that any of this will work.

Well, it probably won't work because it's the Jets

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9 hours ago, Jetsfan80 said:

No, he didn't.  I demonstrated that in another thread:

 

 

Philbin did better with Tannehill in 2014 than Gase ever did in his Miami tenure.  Gase's only quantifiable success stories were:  1) Getting Manning to play at an elite level in 2014, when his body started breaking down, and 2) Doing better with Cutler in 2015 than Aaron Kromer did in 2014.

QB whisperer, he has NOT proven to be so far in his career. 

Ryan Tannehill did sport his highest QBR with Gase. I think in that thread, I posted a more detailed take on what I got out of the data presented. I agree that there wasn’t much convincing evidence that he’s some offensive genius at all but there are a few more encouraging things that I took from that.

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44 minutes ago, CTM said:

I'm more or less convinced Mac wanted Rhule to be his bitch, and when Rhuke said gfy Mac pushed CJ to Gase over McCarthy 

Reports today that perhaps Gase reports to Mac(what other change could it be) only strengthan my belief that Mac has CJ's ear.

This was always going to be some kind of problem when Mac was retained but I dont think Gase is going to be passive when/if things start going sideways

“It will be a sh*tshow, but hopefully it will be the kind of sh*tshow that gets the right people fired” is a wonderfully Jetsy sentiment

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1 hour ago, CTM said:

I'm more or less convinced Mac wanted Rhule to be his bitch, and when Rhuke said gfy Mac pushed CJ to Gase over McCarthy 

Reports today that perhaps Gase reports to Mac(what other change could it be) only strengthan my belief that Mac has CJ's ear.

This was always going to be some kind of problem when Mac was retained but I dont think Gase is going to be passive when/if things start going sideways

Macc had a shot to make a statement at the presser. Instead he sat there twiddling his thumbs.

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