Giving credit where credit is due, regardless of past failures

[southparkcpa]

14 minutes ago, Skeptable said:

I will first state I want Mac gone too... And I don't think he has been a good GM. BUT....

Point By Point...

- Draft record is poor but it has improved from the first 2 years, and this past draft looks to have a lot of actually good players.

- Again you are making the mistake that his past failure as a first time GM in his first 2 years of failure proves that he will fail in the future.

- Marcus Maye is not a failure and when healthy is one of the best players on the Jets, last year they didn't have a second round.

- He has gotten better every year with contracts and most of the mid-level contracts he has given out have turned into successes.  He has also removed almost all dead money off the books and many players can be cut with no future cap hits.  He has done an excellent job of not causing larger financial problems that would impede the building of the organization

- Because he has improved year over year... Hopefully that doesn't plateau.

- Umm Ok

- And the 3rd time is the charm... Was his first 2 drafts absolute disasters... It seems that way... have the last 2 been vast improvements,... Absolutely.

The point here is that he wasn't great at anything his first 2 years in the office, but there has been improvement in each year every year. 

Another factor to point out is that Bowles had a say in certain personnel decisions, which may have caused problems and indecision ending up in bad drafts... There were multiple reports that stated as much and there was even a report 2 years ago about how Mac was going to have more control over who was going to be drafted.

I won't dispute any of that.  I simply believe with all his experience, bottom 5 in the NFL speaks for itself.

[Paradis]

40 minutes ago, TheNuuFaaolaExperience said:

Read the post. It has the answer to that question.

I'm not trying to be a dick -- but you're essentially saying "give credit for.... doing his job? the bare minimum"

It's like IF i hired your to be a welder, and you sucked most of the time, but once in while you did as you hired to do. Not a great job -- lol fcking from it -- but sort of met the basic requirements and outcomes of the position you were hired to do...

And that's deserving of credit?!?!?!??!! 

For real, how low are your standards--

Credit? Fck him. He's making millions. 

[joenamathwouldn'tcry]

2 hours ago, CrazyCarl40 said:

I’m old enough to remember when Todd Bowles was going to change the culture of Rex Ryan who was going to change the culture of... blah blah blah. The culture hasn’t changed. Just the name on the head coach door. 

Also, I love this narrative that Gregg Williams is going to be a master motivator and light a fire under the “loafers”. Listen. These are grown men. If they’re loafers that’s not going to change because the coach changed. That’s engrained in who they are. Also, why would this coach or any coach worth a lick want any “loafers” to begin with? That failure is on Macc. Which is a whole other discussion.

The only point you have is that they hired a coach that should help the offense, in theory only though because he hasn’t proven to be the offensive guru as a head coach that many claim him to be. 

It is not a "narrative" that Greg Williams will be a motivator and light a "fire" under the Jets' "loafers".  It is a fact.  Also a fact is that, if the "unmotivated loafers" do not get motivated and involved, they will either be gone or on the bench. Todd Bowles and Rex Ryan were not "culture" changers, unless your desired  result was a "friendly, country-club, unprofessional, unaccountable" laissez faire atmosphere.  Those two ass clowns surely achieved that. Not this guy.  He will dictate the situation. Not the other way around. Gase is the same way.  If you think differently you haven't been paying attention,  These "grown men" like money and the things that it buys for them.  If they don't get in line, they will be told to "hit the bricks".  Bank on it. The culture will change.  Get used to it.

[JetsFanatic]

14 minutes ago, CrazyCarl40 said:

You’d first have to convince we that Gase is a better head coach than Todd Bowles. Bowles got career seasons out of Fitzpatrick and McCown and saw marked improvement throughout the season from Darnold. And he was awful. There’s nothing evidence wise that shows me Gase is a better coach than Bowles. 

I don't have to convince you of anything. If that's your opinion, that's your opinion.

[FidelioJet]

39 minutes ago, Losmeister said:

HERE? Sure. It's already ugly here. Independant of the team. 

You make it sound like a post apocalyptic scene where strangers are fighting for food and firearms...

No, I don't mean here.  I mean in the Jet's front office and coaching staff.

Gase will be blaming Williams - Williams will be blaming Mac - Mac will be covering his ass blaming the play calling etc...When you have a weak owner this is the type of stuff that goes on.

The coaching staff will absolutely implode if they don't win ....

[CrazyCarl40]

6 minutes ago, joenamathwouldn'tcry said:

It is not a "narrative" that Greg Williams will be a motivator and light a "fire" under the Jets' "loafers".  It is a fact.  Also a fact is that, if the "unmotivated loafers" do not get motivated and involved, they will either be gone or on the bench. Todd Bowles and Rex Ryan were not "culture" changers, unless your desired  result was a "friendly, country-club, unprofessional, unaccountable" laissez faire atmosphere.  Those two ass clowns surely achieved that. Not this guy.  He will dictate the situation. Not the other way around. Gase is the same way.  If you think differently you haven't been paying attention,  These "grown men" like money and the things that it buys for them.  If they don't get in line, they will be told to "hit the bricks".  Bank on it. The culture will change.  Get used to it.

Well it’s good to know what Gregg Williams’ user name is here on this board. Welcome to the team, coach!

[Paradis]

I hated Idzik because he was the wrong man for the job. He was bean counter and should have had other people there to support him with building the roster. It wasn't personal w/ Idzik, it was more at the Johnsons for sticking that poor prick in a tough situation. 

Macc? Fck him! Hes smart, he was hired for his personnel prowess and the guy can't stop being a pussy. He's backpedaling half the time and leaning on this and that rather than just driving his sword into the stone and saying - We're going for gold baby. 

How on earth was Leonard Williams the right pick for the NYJ with THREE 1ST ROUND DLINEMEN on the roster + Snacks... 

how

how

how

how

how

He lost me in 2015. 

Grow some balls you overpaid wanker. 

[Mark78]

2 hours ago, Creepy Lurker said:

I get being optimistic but people need to chill out about this team. They need to show something first. Enough with the blind hope/excitement. Anyone that keeps talking themselves into the Jets making all the right decisions and can do no wrong, clearly has not been paying attention.

We all hope for the best but so many around here sound like all of our problems have been solved already and we are FAR from it. Temper expectations and be pleasantly surprised IF things go right. It won’t be easy. 

Damn, I already bought the champagne for next February.  FML

[Skeptable]

40 minutes ago, southparkcpa said:

I won't dispute any of that.  I simply believe with all his experience, bottom 5 in the NFL speaks for itself.

Compare the last two years versus the rest of the league versus all 4 years for a better study

[Losmeister]

28 minutes ago, FidelioJet said:

No, I don't mean here.  I mean in the Jet's front office and coaching staff.

Gase will be blaming Williams - Williams will be blaming Mac - Mac will be covering his ass blaming the play calling etc...When you have a weak owner this is the type of stuff that goes on.

The coaching staff will absolutely implode if they don't win ....

Still seems a rather DRAMATIC take..    it'll be good IT WILL GET UGLY!!!

 

alotta hyperbole.....    ABSOLUTE IMPLOSION!

 

[southparkcpa]

10 minutes ago, Skeptable said:

Compare the last two years versus the rest of the league versus all 4 years for a better study

I get you but to shorten a field for analysis goes against all reasonable mathematics.

 

 

[joenamathwouldn'tcry]

Some of you "Fans" need to get a grip.  Acknowledging that some good decisions have been made, and that the team seems to be headed in the right  direction, is by no means a "stamp of approval" for all of the missteps of the past.. I haven't seen anyone "guaranteeing"a trip to the Super Bowl.  Do we not have the right to be hopeful for this change and anticipate better days, while acknowledging the moves  that got us here?  Or, as some of you obviously feel, are we mandated by peer pressure to wallow in the misery and sh*t of the past four years and so many years prior?  To what end?  So we can lean back on our fat asses in our "Armchair Quarterback" recliner and say, "I told you so"?  I choose not to.  If you do, knock yourself out.  Just don't try to tell those of us that do that we "don't know what we're talking about", are stupid. or try to insinuate that we are some kind of "Newbie" or Johnny come Lately that has no right to their opinions/beliefs. I have been a fan for almost 55 years,  I have "earned" the right to always be hopeful.  If you don't think so, tough sh*t.

[Saul Goodman]

39 minutes ago, Paradis said:

I hated Idzik because he was the wrong man for the job. He was bean counter and should have had other people there to support him with building the roster. It wasn't personal w/ Idzik, it was more at the Johnsons for sticking that poor prick in a tough situation. 

Macc? Fck him! Hes smart, he was hired for his personnel prowess and the guy can't stop being a pussy. He's backpedaling half the time and leaning on this and that rather than just driving his sword into the stone and saying - We're going for gold baby. 

How on earth was Leonard Williams the right pick for the NYJ with THREE 1ST ROUND DLINEMEN on the roster + Snacks... 

how

how

how

how

how

He lost me in 2015. 

Grow some balls you overpaid wanker. 

Eh, I agree to a point. A lot of “safe picks”.

But Maccagnan staked his career on Darnold. Or to be more precise, on the strategy that a quarterback would be there at #3 that would become a franchise QB. 

Disclaimer: Maccagnan has been very, very poor at his job overall. 

[JoeWillieWhiteShoesHOF]

3 hours ago, southparkcpa said:

Have you looked at Mac's draft record?  It is statistically bottom 5 in the league. Fact.  

He came he 4 years ago with 100M in cap space. He has passed on several good QB's in that process.

He has made the JETS shltty second round draft history hold it's place.

He has overpaid many aging vets.

What makes you think he has any idea to do better the next 4 years?

Having that man in charge makes me want to vomit. He is gutless.

He drafted 2 QB's in his first 3 years, none of which could play.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Agreed, like I’ve posted many times before he has been a horrific GM.  Worst of all is that you can always read between the lines and notice that his actions are virtually ALWAYS dictated on protecting himself first, JUST LIKE BOWLES, with the team a distant second.  

The record of his actions loudly speak of someone who knows they are in over their head, but want to keep their job.

But I would really like to see the roster he has put together perform with these new coaches.

[TheNuuFaaolaExperience]

2 hours ago, Creepy Lurker said:

I get being optimistic but people need to chill out about this team. They need to show something first. Enough with the blind hope/excitement. Anyone that keeps talking themselves into the Jets making all the right decisions and can do no wrong, clearly has not been paying attention.

We all hope for the best but so many around here sound like all of our problems have been solved already and we are FAR from it. Temper expectations and be pleasantly surprised IF things go right. It won’t be easy. 

People need to chill that the team took positive steps? I wasn't blown away by the choice of coach, but I at least see an actual plan. There was no clear plan for the past four years other than waiting for next year. I wanted to blow the whole thing up and go with Jim Harbaugh. There wouldn't have been enough blood in my body to sustain my erection. 

There is no blind hope or excitment for me. I'm just looking forward to seeing how these moves turn out. To my untrained eye, they seem to be positive moves. There are people who are more versed in sports than I am who also feel like the Jets made good moves, even if they weren't the best possible moves. 

I started this thread with "A bunch of failure has brought us to today..." Does that sound like I have confidence in ownership and the front office?

We are a long ways away from solving our problems, but we are ahead of where we were with Todd Bowles, Bates, and Rodgers coaching this team. 

I had no hope with Bowles. I at least feel a glimmer of hope with the new coaching staff, Darnold a year older, and President Mal ready to go from 2nd team all pro to first team all pro.

[TheNuuFaaolaExperience]

59 minutes ago, Paradis said:

I'm not trying to be a dick -- but you're essentially saying "give credit for.... doing his job? the bare minimum"

It's like IF i hired your to be a welder, and you sucked most of the time, but once in while you did as you hired to do. Not a great job -- lol fcking from it -- but sort of met the basic requirements and outcomes of the position you were hired to do...

And that's deserving of credit?!?!?!??!! 

For real, how low are your standards--

Credit? Fck him. He's making millions. 

This isn't the bare minimum.

If you were hired to be a welder but the boss had someone else welding for you, would you blame the guy for not doing his job? 

[JoeWillieWhiteShoesHOF]

1 hour ago, Paradis said:

I'm not trying to be a dick -- but you're essentially saying "give credit for.... doing his job? the bare minimum"

It's like IF i hired your to be a welder, and you sucked most of the time, but once in while you did as you hired to do. Not a great job -- lol fcking from it -- but sort of met the basic requirements and outcomes of the position you were hired to do...

And that's deserving of credit?!?!?!??!! 

For real, how low are your standards--

Credit? Fck him. He's making millions. 

And he just most likely milked a few more years out of the Johnsons, the only owners in the league who wouldn’t have fired this guy at bare minimum after the 3rd year.

Jets just need some more pure dumb luck...like having Darnold fall to them.

[joenamathwouldn'tcry]

2 hours ago, bitonti said:

I'd rather go through life having people remember bad predictions that didn't come true than to never have the guts to make a prediction at all 

get in the game 

Making the same "the sky is falling, all is lost" prediction all of the time doesn't show guts, isn't really a prediction, and  isn't getting "in the game". What it is, is predictable, weak and makes you right 50% of the time.  Congratulations.

[JoeWillieWhiteShoesHOF]

3 minutes ago, TheNuuFaaolaExperience said:

This isn't the bare minimum.

If you were hired to be a welder but the boss had someone else welding for you, would you blame the guy for not doing his job? 

Enough.

Can we agree that the Jets, right now at this very instant have one of the weakest rosters in the entire NFL? Bottom 3, No?

So if that is seen as fact, who put this roster together over 4 F**KIN YEARS?

Outside of lucking into Darnold falling to him, Adams, Herndon, 1/2 of Leonard Williams, what is on this roster?  3 1/2 players out of 53.

That right there is a hideous job.

[TheNuuFaaolaExperience]

 

1 hour ago, Skeptable said:

I will first state I want Mac gone too... And I don't think he has been a good GM. BUT....

Point By Point...

- Draft record is poor but it has improved from the first 2 years, and this past draft looks to have a lot of actually good players.

- Again you are making the mistake that his past failure as a first time GM in his first 2 years of failure proves that he will fail in the future.

- Marcus Maye is not a failure and when healthy is one of the best players on the Jets, last year they didn't have a second round.

- He has gotten better every year with contracts and most of the mid-level contracts he has given out have turned into successes.  He has also removed almost all dead money off the books and many players can be cut with no future cap hits.  He has done an excellent job of not causing larger financial problems that would impede the building of the organization

- Because he has improved year over year... Hopefully that doesn't plateau.

- Umm Ok

- And the 3rd time is the charm... Was his first 2 drafts absolute disasters... It seems that way... have the last 2 been vast improvements,... Absolutely.

The point here is that he wasn't great at anything his first 2 years in the office, but there has been improvement in each year every year. 

Another factor to point out is that Bowles had a say in certain personnel decisions, which may have caused problems and indecision ending up in bad drafts... There were multiple reports that stated as much and there was even a report 2 years ago about how Mac was going to have more control over who was going to be drafted.

You are not allowed to have a nuanced opinion. If blue is your favorite color and Mike Maccagnan wears a blue shirt, you cannot compliment the blue shirt because he drafted two safties and Hackenberg.

I agree that Macc is not without fault, but I am curious to see his work as a true GM. If these latest moves are his, I am encouraged. I'm not allowed to think that though because he drafted Dylan Donohue. 

 

 

[TheNuuFaaolaExperience]

1 minute ago, JoeWillieWhiteShoesHOF said:

Enough.

Can we agree that the Jets, right now at this very instant have one of the weakest rosters in the entire NFL? Bottom 3, No?

So if that is seen as fact, who put this roster together over 4 F**KIN YEARS?

Outside of lucking into Darnold falling to him, Adams, Herndon, 1/2 of Leonard Williams, what is on this roster?  3 1/2 players out of 53.

That right there is a hideous job.

Ok NPC. We're done.

[joewilly12]

3 hours ago, CrazyCarl40 said:

I’m old enough to remember when Todd Bowles was going to change the culture of Rex Ryan who was going to change the culture of... blah blah blah. The culture hasn’t changed. Just the name on the head coach door. 

Preach on Carl my brother!!!!!!!

[joenamathwouldn'tcry]

25 minutes ago, JoeWillieWhiteShoesHOF said:

And he just most likely milked a few more years out of the Johnsons, the only owners in the league who wouldn’t have fired this guy at bare minimum after the 3rd year.

Jets just need some more pure dumb luck...like having Darnold fall to them.

A little perspective.  Marvin Lewis was the Coach of the Bengals for 16 YEARS!  Not that I disagree with your point.  "Only",  can be a tricky word.

[Skeptable]

51 minutes ago, southparkcpa said:

I get you but to shorten a field for analysis goes against all reasonable mathematics.

 

 

Not if the first 2 years end up being outliers.  Statistics can prove whatever you want depending on how you manipulate the questions or the parameters... Put enough qualifiers in and you can make Mac look like a genius. 

Again, I wish the Jets went a different direction with the GM as the last 4 years have been a disaster but I am encouraged that each year it seems like he has improved in drafting and in free agency. Hopefully, that trend continues and this year his draft is even better then last year which is his most successful draft so far.

 

[jack48]

4 hours ago, CrazyCarl40 said:

I’m old enough to remember when Todd Bowles was going to change the culture of Rex Ryan who was going to change the culture of... blah blah blah. The culture hasn’t changed. Just the name on the head coach door. 

Also, I love this narrative that Gregg Williams is going to be a master motivator and light a fire under the “loafers”. Listen. These are grown men. If they’re loafers that’s not going to change because the coach changed. That’s engrained in who they are. Also, why would this coach or any coach worth a lick want any “loafers” to begin with? That failure is on Macc. Which is a whole other discussion.

The only point you have is that they hired a coach that should help the offense, in theory only though because he hasn’t proven to be the offensive guru as a head coach that many claim him to be. 

He did change it.  They both changed it.  They created two bad cultures.  We are on Culture Number Three.  Or is it Culture Thirty Two?

[Skeptable]

34 minutes ago, JoeWillieWhiteShoesHOF said:

Enough.

Can we agree that the Jets, right now at this very instant have one of the weakest rosters in the entire NFL? Bottom 3, No?

So if that is seen as fact, who put this roster together over 4 F**KIN YEARS?

Outside of lucking into Darnold falling to him, Adams, Herndon, 1/2 of Leonard Williams, what is on this roster?  3 1/2 players out of 53.

That right there is a hideous job.

I would argue that Raiders, Arizona, Redskins, Miami, Buffalo, Titans, Broncos, and Bucs all have much worse rosters then the Jets. The Jets have under-performed due to horrendous coaching and still have a bad roster but they are closer to middle of the road then the bottom. The are also a team that has plenty of room to improve through free agency where most of the teams listed above will get worse because of the situation they are stuck in. 

The biggest pluses the Mac has done, is never putting the organization in bad position with long term bad contracts and dead money. Has Mac signed bad Free agents... yes... of course but most of them can be replaced with no actual impact on the team. 

[HighPitch]

3 hours ago, CrazyCarl40 said:

Are we really comparing Bill Parcells to Adam Gase?

No chachie.

his point was that it is POSSIBLE for coach to make a huge difference 

[jack48]

1 hour ago, Saul Goodman said:

Eh, I agree to a point. A lot of “safe picks”.

But Maccagnan staked his career on Darnold. Or to be more precise, on the strategy that a quarterback would be there at #3 that would become a franchise QB. 

Disclaimer: Maccagnan has been very, very poor at his job overall. 

The mere sound of Macc's voice oozes confidence and reassurance

[slimjasi]

4 hours ago, bitonti said:

these are all good points

and no one cares

the most fun Jets fans are going to have this season is before the season starts when we convince ourselves this time it's different 

the embarrassing stories change but the outcome is never different 

this particular regime with Gase/Williams/Conan the Barbarian is absolutely going to explode probably before the bye week

but don't make that prediction people will say you are an a$$hole 

 

4 hours ago, Creepy Lurker said:

I get being optimistic but people need to chill out about this team. They need to show something first. Enough with the blind hope/excitement. Anyone that keeps talking themselves into the Jets making all the right decisions and can do no wrong, clearly has not been paying attention.

We all hope for the best but so many around here sound like all of our problems have been solved already and we are FAR from it. Temper expectations and be pleasantly surprised IF things go right. It won’t be easy. 

You guys are probably both right. 

BUT, the reason this time could be different is the QB (not that it necessarily will be different). We haven't had a QB prospect like this since Namath. I do believe that a top QB can carry an otherwise helpless franchise a long, long way. Of course, it remains to be seen if Darnold can develop into the player that we all hope he can be. 

[slimjasi]

11 minutes ago, jack48 said:

The mere sound of Macc's voice oozes confidence and reassurance

Yes! For a guy who downs so much caffeine, he always sounds like he just smoked a bowl. 

[Creepy Lurker]

1 hour ago, TheNuuFaaolaExperience said:

People need to chill that the team took positive steps? I wasn't blown away by the choice of coach, but I at least see an actual plan. There was no clear plan for the past four years other than waiting for next year. I wanted to blow the whole thing up and go with Jim Harbaugh. There wouldn't have been enough blood in my body to sustain my erection. 

There is no blind hope or excitment for me. I'm just looking forward to seeing how these moves turn out. To my untrained eye, they seem to be positive moves. There are people who are more versed in sports than I am who also feel like the Jets made good moves, even if they weren't the best possible moves. 

I started this thread with "A bunch of failure has brought us to today..." Does that sound like I have confidence in ownership and the front office?

We are a long ways away from solving our problems, but we are ahead of where we were with Todd Bowles, Bates, and Rodgers coaching this team. 

I had no hope with Bowles. I at least feel a glimmer of hope with the new coaching staff, Darnold a year older, and President Mal ready to go from 2nd team all pro to first team all pro.

You are spot on with a lot of this and sorry if you felt targeted. I’m talking about the overall sentiment(here and elsewhere) about everything being so great. It’s still way too soon is all.

I get optimism and excitement but why not skepticism and patience? That’s what I don’t get. Everyone seems too comfortable and we could very well be screwed still. It feels like celebrating before anything good actually happened. 

[Butterfield]

Will they get credit again when they do this all over in 3 years?

[Creepy Lurker]

18 minutes ago, slimjasi said:

 

You guys are probably both right. 

BUT, the reason this time could be different is the QB (not that it necessarily will be different). We haven't had a QB prospect like this since Namath. I do believe that a top QB can carry an otherwise helpless franchise a long, long way. Of course, it remains to be seen if Darnold can develop into the player that we all hope he can be. 

Darnold could mask a lot of issues but can also be held back by a poor GM/roster. I agree that he is the wildcard and with a good QB, you have a chance.

I’d like him to succeed because of his teammates and not inspite of. That’s my worry. His supporting cast is trash and may very well continue to be which will put him in bad spots AGAIN. 

[TheNuuFaaolaExperience]

34 minutes ago, Creepy Lurker said:

You are spot on with a lot of this and sorry if you felt targeted. I’m talking about the overall sentiment(here and elsewhere) about everything being so great. It’s still way too soon is all.

I get optimism and excitement but why not skepticism and patience? That’s what I don’t get. Everyone seems too comfortable and we could very well be screwed still. It feels like celebrating before anything good actually happened. 

I've seen more pessimism than optimism regarding Gase. I'm not sure that I have seen much gushing over Gase either. It seems that most people fall in the category of being relieved that Bowles is gone and excitement that someone other than Bowles is coaching this team. If anything, the most excitement is from Kacy Rodgers not being the DC and Gregg Williams taking over. 

Franchise QB, new coach, new uniforms, one year closer to the end of Brady. I can't help but feel a little optimism.

[jetstream23]

4 hours ago, Sarge4Tide said:

Another thread where somebody posts something positive on JetNation and a bunch of #@%#$@%s  have to jump in and piss on it 

Every...damn...thread 

Some people aren't happy being miserable, they are only happy if they can make other people miserable like them . Misery Vampires 

Agreed. We even had a “Positivity” thread recently that I believe has approximately 60% negative comments in it now.