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Shoring up the OL


Greenseed4

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5 hours ago, Jetsfan80 said:

I want no part of Trent Brown.  How many times have we seen the Pats let an OL go and suck elsewhere?  It's a shock when they no longer get away with holding every play. 

Otherwise very strong analysis.  Paradis needs to be our # 1 priority in free agency. 

but at the same they would be weakening a division rival.  i agree that patsie players don't play at the same level when they leave the patsies but at some point losing left tackles two years in a row has got to hurt.  the only thing i would question are the pff rankings.  are they legit?

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35 minutes ago, NYDreamer said:

I would be okay with Long taking the LG position full time.  He did a pretty good job in that spot.  The other suggestions made regarding adding 2/3 OL free agents would be great  Build that trench.

I think Gase likes larger linemen/ man to man blocking.   Long may not be a fit.  Carpenter was, but finished. 

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9 hours ago, Jetsfan80 said:

I want no part of Trent Brown.  How many times have we seen the Pats let an OL go and suck elsewhere?  It's a shock when they no longer get away with holding every play. 

Otherwise very strong analysis.  Paradis needs to be our # 1 priority in free agency. 

D Woody was great! And has stayed total to Jets in retirement too, which I appreciate.

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Winters is an big part of the problem with our Oline.  It isn't his consistency, overall he grades out well because he can move in space and plays with good effort.  The issue is that 3-4 times a game he gets absolutely blown up, where he is pushed into the backfield and a play gets destroyed and results in a 2+ yard loss or a sack.  He is simply not strong enough at the POA (ie - too light in the ass) and gets overwhelmed by bigger, strong DTs.

As for Trent Brown, he is a case of a player "bouncing around" when its not his fault.  SF simply drafted a "franchise LT" making him unnecessarily expendable which led to the Pats getting him.  He isn't Jonathon Odgen, but give his age, id happily overpay him and waive beachem (who isnt bad) and soldify that spot and sign Paradis and then draft a mid round guard.

I think chris lindstrom from BC and Cody Ford from oklahoma will be great guards in the NFL - would love to see us take one or both of them

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11 hours ago, Greenseed4 said:

Let’s talk O-line.  Ours is sucky.  We should probably address it.  Listed below are PFF rankings. I’m not a premium member, so I can’t tell you which metrics are used for evals, but it’s a nice launching point for discussion. 

 

Our OL:  score (grade), pos. rank

LT: Beachum (age 30): 65.9 (above), #48T

LG: Carpenter (age 30): 56.3 (avg), #55G

C: Harrison (age 28): 54.1 (below), #30C      

C: S Long (age 28): 45.4 (below), #37C

RG: Winters (age 27): 62.6 (avg), #35G

RT: Shell (age 26): 62.7 (avg), #56T

———————————————-

Best options in free agency: (criteria is based on age, “unrestricted FA” status, and a score higher than current starter)

 

LT: Donovan Smith (age 25): 66.4 (above), #46T

LT: Trent Brown (age 25): 70.0 (above), #37T

OG: Mark Glowinski (age 27): 68.9 (above), #17G

OG: Billy Turner (age 27): 62.8 (avg), #34G

OG: Quinton Spain (age 27): 62.3 (avg), #36G

OG: John Miller (age 25): 64.3 (avg), #26G

OC: Matt Paradis (age 29): 79.0 (above), #2C

OC: Mitch Morse (age 27): 70.0 (above), #12C

RT: Ju’Wuan James (age 26): 70.8 (above), #33T

————————————————

Gameplan:

Go all out to sign LT Trent Brown, and OC Matt Paradis. Make strong push for OG Mark Glowinski, play him at LG, move Beachum to RT. 

 

LT: we move from #48T —> #37T

LG: #55G —> #17G

OC: #30C —> #2C

RG: #35G

RT: #56T —> #48T

———————————————-

This gameplan works because:

1. We need to protect Sam. Duh

2. All of these guys are f’riggn HUGE upgrades. 

3. I just can’t see Macc drafting offense at the top of this draft class, trade down or not, nor do I necessarily trust any rookie to step in and beat out any member of the lineup mentioned above (save, maybe Winters who’s under contract for another 2 years). 

 

 

As a guy who believes OL is the foundation of offense and has coached OL (by choice) on several levels, I think you knocked it out of the park with this post.  Now, I don't believe in metrics when it comes to Oline.  A bad center will make a good guard look like crap and a slow footed guard will force a tackle to have to chip before taking on his main run responsibility, giving him two jobs.  there are lots of scenarios where a decent OL is hamstrung by the guys next to him and the scheme not working within the individual lineman's ability.  That being said, all the moves you suggest make us a better offense and not by a little bit.  Great post.  May it make its way to Mike McCagnon.

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1 hour ago, BCJet said:

Winters is an big part of the problem with our Oline.  It isn't his consistency, overall he grades out well because he can move in space and plays with good effort.  The issue is that 3-4 times a game he gets absolutely blown up, where he is pushed into the backfield and a play gets destroyed and results in a 2+ yard loss or a sack.  He is simply not strong enough at the POA (ie - too light in the ass) and gets overwhelmed by bigger, strong DTs.

As for Trent Brown, he is a case of a player "bouncing around" when its not his fault.  SF simply drafted a "franchise LT" making him unnecessarily expendable which led to the Pats getting him.  He isn't Jonathon Odgen, but give his age, id happily overpay him and waive beachem (who isnt bad) and soldify that spot and sign Paradis and then draft a mid round guard.

I think chris lindstrom from BC and Cody Ford from oklahoma will be great guards in the NFL - would love to see us take one or both of them

Disagree on Winters.  Interior DL are monsters and generally demand double-teams.  That's where a solid center comes in.  Doubl;e up and slide to the backer.  Chip-and-go.  Chum blocking.  Winters is just fine and I'd argue the only one on the line that doesn't need replacing.

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11 hours ago, DMan77 said:

But, you can live without one of the hemispheres of your brain. There are a couple stories about people missing a hemisphere and not noticing it for a while. 

 

Why does every freaking thread turn into a Bowles thread??

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11 hours ago, Philc1 said:

Von Miller said Trent Brown is the best OT he's faced in the NFL.

 

OVERPAY THIS BEAST!

He would be an upgrade but @Jetsfan80 is onto something that Pats OL benefit from an inordinate amount of non-called holds. Plus Pats dink and dunk offense (ahem, “precision passing game”) doesn’t require the line to hold blocks as long. Non sequitar: jets line definitely sucks but Bell would take massive pressure off of them.

10 hours ago, Spoot-Face said:

Testicles. Definitely the testicles.

I'd be like having a car without any gas or desire to go anywhere.

Wrong. You can inject supplemental testosterone. If you had the drive but no drive shaft, you’d explode eventually.

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12 hours ago, BigO said:

I was going to say which is more important the penis or testicles but thought it might be too crude. this is a classy site know what I mean. 

All I know about testicles is where they will be residing from now on...

 

 

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21 hours ago, Barry McCockinner said:

He was terrible when he was playing with an injured finger on his snapping hand. When healthy he was serviceable. The CS never should have allowed him to continue playing injured as long as they did. It was an major indictment on them really.

 

We could certainly use an upgrade regardless.

Crusher while chomping down on a triple cheeseburger would been an upgrade over Long’s snapping issues.

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2 hours ago, slimjasi said:

I believe if we traded down in the draft, we could nab a number one receiver. I like a coupe of the receivers in the draft quite a bit.

Fair point.  

A trade down - pick up a late one and a 2 or two 2's.

Get two OL and a WR.

We would be on the path to turning this thing around.

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2 hours ago, slimjasi said:

I believe if we traded down in the draft, we could nab a number one receiver. I like a coupe of the receivers in the draft quite a bit.

What about Kevin White?

He was a #7 overall pick for Chicago, scheduled to be an UFA, and due to injuries, has not lived up to his draft status.  But I think we can lure him here with money and pray for good health, and then devote our first rounder to the strength of this draft class...DL and pass rushers. 

 

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10 minutes ago, Greenseed4 said:

What about Kevin White?

He was a #7 overall pick for Chicago, scheduled to be an UFA, and due to injuries, has not lived up to his draft status.  But I think we can lure him here with money and pray for good health, and then devote our first rounder to the strength of this draft class...DL and pass rushers. 

 

Not quite sure why it has not worked out for White in Chicago, but injuries were not an issue this year and he still could not get on the field.  He was a healthy scratch on game day several times over the second half of this season.  If they want to take a flyer on the upside and give him a shot in training camp, no harm in that.  I just don't think you can afford to go into next season counting on him.  We need to add more than just a Kevin White.

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15 minutes ago, Greenseed4 said:

What about Kevin White?

He was a #7 overall pick for Chicago, scheduled to be an UFA, and due to injuries, has not lived up to his draft status.  But I think we can lure him here with money and pray for good health, and then devote our first rounder to the strength of this draft class...DL and pass rushers. 

 

White would def. be a high risk/high reward type.

His athleticism is ridiculous -

I would roll the dice on a guy like him for sure.

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On 1/18/2019 at 12:17 PM, derp said:

Wholeheartedly agree. Not sure the Pats let Brown hit FA but if they do the Jets should be all over it.

Carpenter will be replaced somehow. Can't imagine them going into FA with the LG need. Glowinski seems like the best guard hitting FA and he's young - hope they get it done even if they overpay.

Poster recently pointed out to me in another thread that Long gets $3M in guarantees if he's on the roster 3 days after the Super Bowl. Forget who it was but a great call. I think he should get let go but what they do there will be telling.

Beachum and Shell can both be upgraded and are both FA's after this season. So you can keep them in their roles for a year but it's a band aid solution that will either require draft capital this year or just be an issue again next year. Better to address in FA if possible.

Could see either of those guys kicking in to LG if they sign a tackle.

What I expect to see from Maccagnan is a Long cut, Harrison re-signing, James signing, Shell to LG, and a center and LT drafted in the round 3-5 range. Center competes with Harrison, LT is penciled in as a starter next year.

Trent Brown will be available unless the Pats do something they are not known to do, break out the Checkbook. 

The Patriots 1st round draft pick from last year, Isaiah Wynn will be the likely successor. Pats might franchise Brown but I believe the franchise the Dlineman Flowers instead.

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2 hours ago, Greenseed4 said:

What about Kevin White?

He was a #7 overall pick for Chicago, scheduled to be an UFA, and due to injuries, has not lived up to his draft status.  But I think we can lure him here with money and pray for good health, and then devote our first rounder to the strength of this draft class...DL and pass rushers. 

 

I'd take a flier on him. 

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On 1/19/2019 at 2:50 PM, Greenseed4 said:

What about Kevin White?

He was a #7 overall pick for Chicago, scheduled to be an UFA, and due to injuries, has not lived up to his draft status.  But I think we can lure him here with money and pray for good health, and then devote our first rounder to the strength of this draft class...DL and pass rushers. 

 

Looks like Tarzan plays like jane.  White only shot up the draft board because of his combine, much like Cordarrelle Paterson, and Stephen Hill before him.  He should have been Trubisky's go-to, but didn't even get on the field when healthy.  White's a bottom feeder at this point.

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47 minutes ago, sirlancemehlot said:

Looks like Tarzan plays like jane.  White only shot up the draft board because of his combine, much like Cordarrelle Paterson, and Stephen Hill before him.  He should have been Trubisky's go-to, but didn't even get on the field when healthy.  White's a bottom feeder at this point.

His college stats were pretty Tarzan too. (2014) 109 rec, 1447 yards, 10 TDs. 

His issue is broken bones and fractures.  Indicative of being fragile or injury prone? Idk. But worth a gamble on low money and a proper strength training regiment with a high calcium diet! 

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On 1/21/2019 at 4:18 PM, Greenseed4 said:

His college stats were pretty Tarzan too. (2014) 109 rec, 1447 yards, 10 TDs. 

His issue is broken bones and fractures.  Indicative of being fragile or injury prone? Idk. But worth a gamble on low money and a proper strength training regiment with a high calcium diet! 

Steroids?

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On 1/18/2019 at 11:46 AM, Greenseed4 said:

Let’s talk O-line.  Ours is sucky.  We should probably address it.  Listed below are PFF rankings. I’m not a premium member, so I can’t tell you which metrics are used for evals, but it’s a nice launching point for discussion. 

 

Our OL:  score (grade), pos. rank

LT: Beachum (age 30): 65.9 (above), #48T

LG: Carpenter (age 30): 56.3 (avg), #55G

C: Harrison (age 28): 54.1 (below), #30C      

C: S Long (age 28): 45.4 (below), #37C

RG: Winters (age 27): 62.6 (avg), #35G

RT: Shell (age 26): 62.7 (avg), #56T

———————————————-

Best options in free agency: (criteria is based on age, “unrestricted FA” status, and a score higher than current starter)

 

LT: Donovan Smith (age 25): 66.4 (above), #46T

LT: Trent Brown (age 25): 70.0 (above), #37T

OG: Mark Glowinski (age 27): 68.9 (above), #17G

OG: Billy Turner (age 27): 62.8 (avg), #34G

OG: Quinton Spain (age 27): 62.3 (avg), #36G

OG: John Miller (age 25): 64.3 (avg), #26G

OC: Matt Paradis (age 29): 79.0 (above), #2C

OC: Mitch Morse (age 27): 70.0 (above), #12C

RT: Ju’Wuan James (age 26): 70.8 (above), #33T

————————————————

Gameplan:

Go all out to sign LT Trent Brown, and OC Matt Paradis. Make strong push for OG Mark Glowinski, play him at LG, move Beachum to RT. 

 

LT: we move from #48T —> #37T

LG: #55G —> #17G

OC: #30C —> #2C

RG: #35G

RT: #56T —> #48T

———————————————-

This gameplan works because:

1. We need to protect Sam. Duh

2. All of these guys are f’riggn HUGE upgrades. 

3. I just can’t see Macc drafting offense at the top of this draft class, trade down or not, nor do I necessarily trust any rookie to step in and beat out any member of the lineup mentioned above (save, maybe Winters who’s under contract for another 2 years). 

 

 

Excellent plan!

 

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