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Jury is Still out on these Jets Draft Picks

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3 minutes ago, Jet Nut said:

No, if he doesnt develop a wasted pick.

If he does, no its not.  To claim what we could have signed and what would be better long term is meaningless today because its based on nothing.  

And yes, bitching and moaning about Bowles supposed inability to develop players one day and then to say its not on Bowles another was the point and is fair.  Cant have it both ways was the point.

What?  No idea what you are trying to say.  Shepherd had like 5 solo tackles all year, pretty safe to say he’s useless and there could have been literally 50 other guys you could have put in there and got the same or better production while not having to piss away a 3rd round pick.  He’s a wasted pick.   

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1 minute ago, Creepy Lurker said:

I never said they only needed 3. I was just putting context behind why we didn’t need as many DL as the eagles(different scheme rules for what is considered DL) and why I didn’t value the Shepherd pick as much.

I’ll just leave it at that since I have no other way of explaining this to you and you are not acknowledging my ONLY argument which is the difference between 4-3 and 3-4 in regards to DL. 

Dude I can math 

The point is the jets needed dline help in the draft 

They still do

 

https://overthecap.com/salary-cap/new-york-jets/

Count the dlineman and tell me about how many more guys they need using your advanced analytics 

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3 minutes ago, sec101row23 said:

What?  No idea what you are trying to say.  Shepherd had like 5 solo tackles all year, pretty safe to say he’s useless and there could have been literally 50 other guys you could have put in there and got the same or better production while not having to piss away a 3rd round pick.  He’s a wasted pick.   

What I'm saying is you would think that by now fans would stop calling players busts, deciding what they are and will be moving forward based on their rookie seasons.  Especially when they were drafted as more of a developmental player, not expecting them to be the DROY.  And if not calling them a wasted pick as if it's a fact.  

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1 minute ago, Larz said:

Dude I can math 

The point is the jets needed dline help in the draft 

They still do

 

https://overthecap.com/salary-cap/new-york-jets/

Count the dlineman and tell me about how many more guys they need using your advanced analytics 

I’m not disagreeing with that AT ALL. I was surprised that I even had to explain my point about the Eagles being a bad comparison because this stuff is common football knowledge.

I honestly thought you didn’t understand that since you REFUSED to acknowledge it. I don’t know what you know about football. You probably know way more than me but kept ignoring my basic point and came off as disagreeing with the facts of the difference between 4-3 and 3-4 with DL which was all that I was trying to say.

No need to get defensive and continue to talk down to me. I’ll stick to my “advanced analytics” as you sarcastically call it and you can stick to your inability to acknowledge points in a conversation. 

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2 minutes ago, Jet Nut said:

What I'm saying is you would think that by now fans would stop calling players busts, deciding what they are and will be moving forward based on their rookie seasons.  Especially when they were drafted as more of a developmental player, not expecting them to be the DROY.  And if not calling them a wasted pick as if it's a fact.  

He was a 25 year old 3rd round pick.  How developmental can he be?  At some point if a guy is going to be a player he shows something in his rookie year to make you say, “this kid can play”.  Saw nothing from Shepherd to suggest that.   Herndon showed it, Darnold showed it, that about all from this rookie class.   As much as a 3rd round pick can be a bust, that’s what Shepherd is.  You can go on fooling yourself into believing this 26 year old man is going to blossom, but the odds are he is what he is.  A wasted 3rd round selection.  

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1 minute ago, Creepy Lurker said:

I’m not disagreeing with that AT ALL. I was surprised that I even had to explain my point about the Eagles being a bad comparison because this stuff is common football knowledge.

I honestly thought you didn’t understand that since you REFUSED to acknowledge it. I don’t know what you know about football. You probably know way more than me but kept ignoring my basic point and came off as disagreeing with the facts of the difference between 4-3 and 3-4 with DL which was all that I was trying to say.

No need to get defensive and continue to talk down to me. I’ll stick to my “advanced analytics” as you sarcastically call it and you can stick to your inability to acknowledge points in a conversation. 

The jets needed dline help going into the draft  which is why they acquired 3 dlineman during the draft 

They still need dline help 

Sorry if I ignored your irrelevant musings on the eagles defense but it has nothing to do with my point

It's a very simple point. 

 

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6 minutes ago, Larz said:

The jets needed dline help going into the draft  which is why they acquired 3 dlineman during the draft 

They still need dline help 

Sorry if I ignored your irrelevant musings on the eagles defense but it has nothing to do with my point

It's a very simple point. 

 

It was a simple point and in hindsight not worth talking about. I didn’t know if you took the 7 DL eagle thing literally or not was all. That’s why I wasn’t so desperate for DL at the 3rd round pick in 2018 even though it was a need.

I get it and it was before we officially had Henry Anderson so our d line needed help. I just really don’t like Shepherd at that spot or as a prospect. He wasn’t overdrafted based on projections, I just didn’t like the pick and still think we had more pressing needs there despite only having 3 players under contract.

Finding 3 DL shouldn’t have been that difficult either way. I’m pretty sure the Jets spoke to the Colts about Anderson when they moved up to 3 way before the draft. That trade for Anderson,  1 late round pick and a FA or camp cut would have been fine for a limited roster spot on a 3-4 team. 

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1 minute ago, Creepy Lurker said:

It was a simple point and in hindsight not worth talking about. I didn’t know if you took the 7 DL eagle thing literally or not was all. That’s why I wasn’t so desperate for DL at the 3rd round pick in 2018 even though it was a need.

I get it and it was before we officially had Henry Anderson so our d line needed help. I just really don’t like Shepherd at that spot or as a prospect. He wasn’t overdrafted based on projections, I just didn’t like the pick and still think we had more pressing needs there despite only having 3 players under contract.

Finding 3 DL shouldn’t have been that difficult either way. I’m pretty sure the Jets spoke to the Colts about Anderson when they moved up to 3 way before the draft. That trade for Anderson,  1 late round pick and a FA or camp cut would have been fine for a limited roster spot on a 3-4 team. 

https://overthecap.com/salary-cap/new-york-jets/

 

Guess what? 

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19 minutes ago, sec101row23 said:

He was a 25 year old 3rd round pick.  How developmental can he be?  At some point if a guy is going to be a player he shows something in his rookie year to make you say, “this kid can play”.  Saw nothing from Shepherd to suggest that.   Herndon showed it, Darnold showed it, that about all from this rookie class.   As much as a 3rd round pick can be a bust, that’s what Shepherd is.  You can go on fooling yourself into believing this 26 year old man is going to blossom, but the odds are he is what he is.  A wasted 3rd round selection.  

You're going to just keep arguing that you know what he is after one season.  I got that, you have a crystal ball and just can't admit that we don't know.  Unreal

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8 minutes ago, Creepy Lurker said:

??? What now? 

The jets need dline help 

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3 minutes ago, Creepy Lurker said:

OK? What’s your point?

They will likely acquire additional players using high value assets like draft picks 

 

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Just now, Larz said:

They will likely acquire additional players using high value assets like draft picks 

 

With a scheme change and defensive front 7 overhaul, I don’t mind as much. It’s not easy to change scheme. We are probably in worse shape this year than last year. There is no guarantee that our current DL will work in a 4-3. Especially Pennell who is probably cut due to salary not being worth it.

So I’d say DL is a big need this year. Especially in a 4-3 where there are more players on the line than in the 3-4 that we had last year. Now the need is much more important than last year even though we are in a similar spot of only having 3 DL under contract. 

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Quite a long list of "busts" that have been laid at MacCagnan's  feet, due to the former regime's stubborn refusal to develop and/or give these players a chance.  Despite a glaring lack of "talent" trotted out on the field on a weekly basis, and losing game after game, Bowles "knew" better.  See where that got him. Tampa.  Maybe now these players will get an opportunity, many have talent, and the draft classes may start to be seen in a different light.

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26 minutes ago, Jet Nut said:

You're going to just keep arguing that you know what he is after one season.  I got that, you have a crystal ball and just can't admit that we don't know.  Unreal

The crystal ball has never been clearer regarding Shepherd.  You may not know, but it’s clear to a lot of other people.  

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15 minutes ago, Creepy Lurker said:

With a scheme change and defensive front 7 overhaul, I don’t mind as much. It’s not easy to change scheme. We are probably in worse shape this year than last year. There is no guarantee that our current DL will work in a 4-3. Especially Pennell who is probably cut due to salary not being worth it.

So I’d say DL is a big need this year. Especially in a 4-3 where there are more players on the line than in the 3-4 that we had last year. Now the need is much more important than last year even though we are in a similar spot of only having 3 DL under contract. 

If reports are true, Williams is not married to a front and plays all the fronts 

He has claimed to match the scheme to the players 

With 1 starting caliber player under contract and the cost of quality help being sky high its entirely possible or even probable that the jets are operating under the assumption that they are taking dline at #3. 

Depending on how you view the players, by my count they only have 16 starting caliber players under contract next year. 

Some young guys may take the next step, some guys might come back, they control robby Anderson etc, but wow Maccagan and baby dinger need to have a historic first 3 days of free agency to just find 22 starters 

Or is it 25? 

Hey thanks for putting up with me, I'm heavily distracted by crap going on around me to really put together a coherent thought 😂

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Just now, Larz said:

If reports are true, Williams is not married to a front and plays all the fronts 

He has claimed to match the scheme to the players 

With 1 starting caliber player under contract and the cost of quality help being sky high its entirely possible or even probable that the jets are operating under the assumption that they are taking dline at #3. 

Depending on how you view the players, by my count they only have 13 starting caliber players under contract next year. 

Some young guys may take the next step, some guys might come back, they control robby Anderson etc, but wow Maccagan and baby dinger need to have a historic first 3 days of free agency to just find 22 starters 

Or is it 25? 

Hey thanks for putting up with me, I'm heavily distracted by crap going on around me to really put together a coherent thought 😂

I’m personally not going to pretend to know who will work in the new scheme and who won’t. I’m just sitting back and will enjoy the ride. We will see in a few months how this team is constructed.

I‘m not hopeful but I still find our offseasons fascinating. I am distracted as well now so we can talk more as things unfold. Take it easy man. 

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3 hours ago, Larz said:

The sheperd pick was a head scratcher as far as the player they chose but they only had about 3 dlineman under contract the day of the draft and had picked over the street free agent list leading up to the draft so it was a need actually. I think the Anderson trade happened after the Shepard pick?

Remember Philly rotated 7 dlineman in the super bowl to chase Brady. 

Jets fans don't want to hear about it, but when the season is officially over and the new league year begins, dline will be a bigger need than oline again.

Thr jets will return 4 starters to the oline but only 1 on the dline. (assuming long moves to LG) 

I want to upgrade the oline like everyone else, but if the jets don't bring in serious help on the dline in free agency, and with the draft loaded with dline, it's a pretty obvious pick for dline at #3

 

I agree with you. I just cant even justify the position in that spot. The player just made it completely indefensible. 

You are right about this year too. It can't be a full OLine rebuild. I say add Paradis at C, move Long to G, and hopefully you can move down and pick up a T in round 1 or 2.

The DLine was weak to begin with and with the switch to a 4-3 it is pretty much bare. Leo who has being very disappointing is the only true fit. The Anderson find is a lose now, Jenkins I don't think is worth anything at this point. I really think Flowers has to be a top priority this offseason. And you probably have to double down with a DT or DE and SAM LB too to play with Williamson and Lee. 

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Honestly it's like Mac doesn't fear for his job at all? He has ZERO concern about the timeline of a player getting up to speed and contributing? Take Darrin Lee for example. Despite him being a day one starter he was for intents and purposes USELESS for his first 2 seasons in the league. Even now, he's a far below average player. Yet Mac doesn't take the learning curve into account when drafting players. Every year he's done that he's put this team behind the 8 ball. You must get contributions out of your 1st round draft  choices in their rookie seasons, otherwise wth is the point taking them in the 1st round? The only player that I've seen pop the very second they stepped on the field under Mac is Jamal Adams and he's only a Jet because Mac got lucky having him drop the way he did. So until someone lights a "sense of urgency" under Mac's a$$, the Jets will always have players that you'll be lucky to see playing decent in year 3.

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12 hours ago, Larz said:

The sheperd pick was a head scratcher as far as the player they chose but they only had about 3 dlineman under contract the day of the draft and had picked over the street free agent list leading up to the draft so it was a need actually. I think the Anderson trade happened after the Shepard pick?

Remember Philly rotated 7 dlineman in the super bowl to chase Brady. 

Jets fans don't want to hear about it, but when the season is officially over and the new league year begins, dline will be a bigger need than oline again.

Thr jets will return 4 starters to the oline but only 1 on the dline. (assuming long moves to LG) 

I want to upgrade the oline like everyone else, but if the jets don't bring in serious help on the dline in free agency, and with the draft loaded with dline, it's a pretty obvious pick for dline at #3

 

F**k the Dline.

Theyve spent premium draft capital on the defense for decades now, its beyond obscene, and Bowles D was what 26th in the league last year?  Even if the personnel on D remained status quo they’ll be better because they have a real coach coaching the D in Williams.

Jets finally have a Franchise QB, you don’t have to try to win with defense anymore, like you do when you have a garbage QB...get Darnold help...and more help.

 

 

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On 2/3/2019 at 8:43 AM, Curse of Namath said:

The Shephard pick is one that Mac should have lost his job over. To take a small school project at a position not of need after you draft your franchise QB, have no 2nd round pick and are desperate for pass rushers, OLinemen and playmakers on offense is extreme incompetence and arrogance. 

100% correct.

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On 2/3/2019 at 11:04 AM, sec101row23 said:

What?  No idea what you are trying to say.  Shepherd had like 5 solo tackles all year, pretty safe to say he’s useless and there could have been literally 50 other guys you could have put in there and got the same or better production while not having to piss away a 3rd round pick.  He’s a wasted pick.   

The jury is out on Shepard. This is basically what every report said about Shepard. http://draftanalyst.com/nathan-shepherd

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1 hour ago, Dcat said:

100% correct.

Sam Hubbard was BPA at a position of need.

Orlando Brown (picked by Ravens) or Okorafor (picked by Steelers) of OL. Those are two of the best drafting teams in the NFL.

The Jets were supposed to be taking Mayfield at 3.  Supposedly Mac watched every single play Mayfield played.  Orlando Brown was right there, playing football-not doing calisthenics at the Combine.

Mac is terrible at drafting.  He is good at trading. 

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On 2/3/2019 at 7:28 AM, T0mShane said:

Leggett and Jones are way too soft. Nathan Shepherd got his ass ritually kicked every time he was in the field, which is disturbing because he’s supposed to be “stout,” and he’s already like 25 years old, so it’s not like there’s a development plan for him. McGuire sucks, can’t run, and his roster spot should be given to any of the 500 athletic backs that come out in the draft every year. Maye and Nickerson can play, imo. I also like Burnett as a fourth receiver. Guy just seems to know how to play football.

McGuire is one of the most bland RB's I have ever seen that's held a roster spot this long on a team. Because he doesn't have butter fingers and catches half the balls thrown his way he is a decent player? the guy has averaged 3.3 y/c for his career. there are punters and kickers in this league who have more athletic ability. 

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2 hours ago, genot said:

The jury is out on Shepard. This is basically what every report said about Shepard. http://draftanalyst.com/nathan-shepherd

That is a developmental pick analysis.  These small school guys at line often get pummeled in the NFL.  Fort Hayes State? WTF???  There’s a reason he didn’t go to a big school.   The league is too big and fast for him or so it appears. 

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Sam Hubbard was BPA at a position of need.
Orlando Brown (picked by Ravens) or Okorafor (picked by Steelers) of OL. Those are two of the best drafting teams in the NFL.
The Jets were supposed to be taking Mayfield at 3.  Supposedly Mac watched every single play Mayfield played.  Orlando Brown was right there, playing football-not doing calisthenics at the Combine.
Mac is terrible at drafting.  He is good at trading. 


Absolutely 100% correct! MM should have been shown the door. I will never claim to have knowledge on all draft talent or who will bust or surprise. However, since I don’t post much but I remember the draft day thread and I wanted Brown (most want one of Brown, Okorafor or Hubbard. ). It seemed like a fairly easy call to do OL since you have a new QB and a suspect line at best. Considering the OC was a revolving door take the best possible OL and see what they could do.

The third round is for the top talent that drops for bad combines, arrests or drug tests. IT IS NOT FOR OLDER, SMALL SCHOOL, MARGINAL TALENT. Harrison may become a decent lineman but he is a 6-7 round flier.



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On 2/3/2019 at 11:17 AM, sec101row23 said:

He was a 25 year old 3rd round pick.  How developmental can he be?  At some point if a guy is going to be a player he shows something in his rookie year to make you say, “this kid can play”.  Saw nothing from Shepherd to suggest that.   Herndon showed it, Darnold showed it, that about all from this rookie class.   As much as a 3rd round pick can be a bust, that’s what Shepherd is.  You can go on fooling yourself into believing this 26 year old man is going to blossom, but the odds are he is what he is.  A wasted 3rd round selection.  

You would have said the same thing about Pouha and he turned into a very nice player.  Shepherd is a great athlete.  Yes, he came from a tiny school, but the real buzz came because he was obliterating people in the senior bowl practices.  I expect more from him this year.  Not a pick I loved, but not a real head scratcher to me and while he isn't good, he hasn't looked like someone that doesn't belong on a roster either.

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As bad as Bowles was at judging young talent and seeing the big picture, Jones was just behind too many guys like Roberts who was better then his playing time showed.  The only way to hit on young, mid rounders is to actually play them...they could be hall of famers but if they dont get a single rep who knows what they are when they step on the field.

I know its not a popular opinion, but the only $$ id spend on CB is on Bryce Callahan to play nickel.  After that the CB group should be Trumaine, Derrick Jones, Nickerson and Roberts.  All cheap players and tell them the best man plays - those guys all will be motivated as hell looking for a legit NFL contract and all have quality skills.  Let them battle it out all year.

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Darnold already counted as a draft “hit,” huh? No way this could end badly...

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9 hours ago, southparkcpa said:

That is a developmental pick analysis.  These small school guys at line often get pummeled in the NFL.  Fort Hayes State? WTF???  There’s a reason he didn’t go to a big school.   The league is too big and fast for him or so it appears. 

It's premature to form a judgement. He was a rookie.

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