Defense STILL wins championships

[JohnnyLV]

2 hours ago, Warfish said:

Who is the Patriots elite edge pass rusher?  4th Rounder Trey Flowers, with his 7.5 sacks?

Is 4th rounder Deatrich Wise (and his 4.5 sacks) an elite edge rusher?

If anaything, the Pats are evidence that you do not, in fact, need a #1 draft pick "elite edge rusher" to win Super Bowls.

Yes, Defense is important.  Yes, we want a good D to go with (we hope) a top 10 Offense.

But no, this Super Bowl is not in any way justification for the ongoing "we must draft more D-Linemen!  Something something edge!  Something something elite!" that infests JN like a plague.

When we have a top 10 offense, fine, then draft some D as needed.  Till then, we must support Sam Darnold if we are to have any chance whatsoever to win games.

Post of the week right here. 100% correct. You are so spot on that the completely unbalanced cries for "EDGE" are like a plague. This offseason should have only one focus: Protect Darnold and get him weapons. We do not need to take the risk on an "edge" rusher.

[Drums]

3 hours ago, nyjunc said:

shouldn't someone considered the goat as a HC have been able to win with more than just the greatest QB of all time?

He has 8 rings as a HC/DC-- that's insane. I think I'd agree with you if the rest of the team was utter garbage every year and Brady carried the team, and that's how it looks at the beginning of every year but then all of a sudden everyone starts playing better towards the end of the season (coaching). The players are the best coached players in the league year in and year out. The game plans almost always work. 

 

[varjet]

My Observations from the Super Bowl and How they Affect the Jets (some are repeats):

• What kind of defense do the Patriots play, anyway?  Don't really see small fast LBs.  Their LBs are full-sized.  DL?  Other than Trey Flowers and now this Wise guy, I can't really name any of them.  Their DBs are very active though.
• Passing league?  Why are the Patriots running the ball behind a 250 lb fullback?  Weapons?  Edelman and a crippled Gronkowski caught the big passes.  Chris Hogan (see below) was not breaking free of Talib or Peters.  I knew when the Patriots had the ball at the 3 yard line they would run until they got in.  None of this three passes nonsense.  
• Gronkowski's effort yesterday goes overlooked.  If that was his last NFL game, he went down swinging.  I would take a guy like that on my team anyday.  
• Do we really think that after winning a Super Bowl with the Patriots Flowers, Trent Brown or Hogan are signing with the Jets?  One day someone will uncover why BP and BB hate the Jets so much.  It is not healthy.
• FWIW, Chris Hogan's wife and children live in Huntington, LI.  She is a doctor.  Hogan commutes,  Granted with the ferry maybe it is just as easy to go from Foxboro to LI than from Florham Park , but despite his not being able to get free of two of the best CBs in the league, I think Hogan can help Darnold.  
• Its great that Brian Flores held the Rams to 3 points and will now coach the Dolphins.  

[nyjunc]

2 hours ago, #27TheDominator said:

They had over 400 total yards in three of the 4 post season games.  With an average O that team doesn't make the playoffs.

The D dominated, his only 2 SB runs his D dominated.  He had the one great half in the championship game in 2006, other than that he didn't do much the entire postseason.  In 2015 he was just along for the ride

[nyjunc]

33 minutes ago, Drums said:

He has 8 rings as a HC/DC-- that's insane. I think I'd agree with you if the rest of the team was utter garbage every year and Brady carried the team, and that's how it looks at the beginning of every year but then all of a sudden everyone starts playing better towards the end of the season (coaching). The players are the best coached players in the league year in and year out. The game plans almost always work. 

 

He was a total failure as HC without Brady.  With the Giants he worked under an all time great HC and had the greatest defensive player in history to coach.  I'm not saying he's not great but you can't be the greatest when you have 7 seasons without Brady and 5 of them are losing seasons.

[Jet Nut]

4 hours ago, TuscanyTile2 said:

Not last year it didn’t 

Or the year before

[Matt39]

NYJUNCs rationale that Belichick is actually bad at coaching football is entertaining to say the least. 

[Jet Nut]

XLVIIFeb. 3, 2013Mercedes-Benz Superdome (New Orleans)Baltimore 34, San Francisco 31

XLVIIIFeb. 2, 2014MetLife Stadium (East Rutherford, N.J.)Seattle 43, Denver 8

XLIXFeb. 1, 2015University of Phoenix Stadium (Glendale, Ariz.)New England 28, Seattle 24

50Feb. 7, 2016Levi's Stadium (Santa Clara, Calif.)Denver 24, Carolina 10

LIFeb. 5, 2017NRG Stadium (Houston)New England 34, Atlanta 28

LIIFeb. 4, 2018U.S. Bank Stadium (Minneapolis)Philadelphia 41, New England 33

Not a whole lot of proof that defense wins championships. Winning teams average point totals, not counting last night, over the last 6 SBs is 34 points 

[CanadaSteve]

2 hours ago, section314 said:

And how well they are coached. Or not.

Yes, and that too.  Its a given, unless your a Jets coach!

[#27TheDominator]

6 minutes ago, nyjunc said:

The D dominated, his only 2 SB runs his D dominated.  He had the one great half in the championship game in 2006, other than that he didn't do much the entire postseason.  In 2015 he was just along for the ride

He threw for 350 yards against the Pats.  If "defense won championships" the Ravens who were a historically good D  (again) would have made it past the divisional round. You have this silly way of simpifying everything and downplaying "doing enough to win."  Sometimes a great D will play prevent to win and so will a great QB - like Joe in Super Bowl III.

[Jet Nut]

3 hours ago, nyjunc said:

shouldn't someone considered the goat as a HC have been able to win with more than just the greatest QB of all time?

No, he should be penalized because his QB is playing into his 40's.  That should work against him.

Lombardi had one QB who won, whos knocking him.  Paul Brown had one.  Knoll won with one QB.

ANyone taking them off the list of top HCs because of their QBs?

Where do you come up with this stuff, you do notice that youre the only one who believes this stuff.   

[CanadaSteve]

19 minutes ago, Jet Nut said:

XLVIIFeb. 3, 2013Mercedes-Benz Superdome (New Orleans)Baltimore 34, San Francisco 31

XLVIIIFeb. 2, 2014MetLife Stadium (East Rutherford, N.J.)Seattle 43, Denver 8

XLIXFeb. 1, 2015University of Phoenix Stadium (Glendale, Ariz.)New England 28, Seattle 24

50Feb. 7, 2016Levi's Stadium (Santa Clara, Calif.)Denver 24, Carolina 10

LIFeb. 5, 2017NRG Stadium (Houston)New England 34, Atlanta 28

LIIFeb. 4, 2018U.S. Bank Stadium (Minneapolis)Philadelphia 41, New England 33

Not a whole lot of proof that defense wins championships. Winning teams average point totals, not counting last night, over the last 6 SBs is 34 points 

Again, small sample size, but yes, there has been more scoring of late, which the league wants.  But.....A strong defensive showing will always triumph.  The league is being built to ignore defense; You just cannot do that. 

[Jetster]

2 hours ago, jamesr said:

Buster Skrine had 7 penalties all year. 6 on D, one on ST.

Most in a game was 2. He actually had zero penalties Week 3 - Week 15. 4 penalties total were PI (3) and holding (1).

So, nice narrative, but not backed up by the facts.  

Ok, he had 2 IN ONE GAME! The Pats had 1 holding call in 3 playoff games!

[Jetster]

1 hour ago, rangerous said:

that's a little much to swallow.  sure the patsies execute better than any other team in the league but please don't say other teams can't do it.  it's more that the other teams haven't had the same system in place and they're not getting the same amount of mileage by their receivers like the patsies are doing with gronkowski and edelman.

Show me another Coach & QB that have been together for 17 years? 

[jamesr]

6 minutes ago, Jetster said:

Ok, he had 2 IN ONE GAME! The Pats had 1 holding call in 3 playoff games!

Skrine was called for defensive holding once all year. Claiborne led the Jets with 4. Want to know who had more than that? Stephon Gilmore of the Patriots with 5 in the regular season and 2 more in the post season.

Skrine led the Jets in PI with 3. Want to know who had as many as that in the post season alone? J.C. Jackson of the Patriots, with 3 PI calls in the Chargers & Chiefs games. Plus he had one defensive holding penalty thrown in for good measure.

So that's 3 defensive holding calls AND 3 defensive PI calls against NE in the playoffs / Superbowl. Not sure where you get your 1 holding call in 3 playoff games from?

 

[Jetster]

5 minutes ago, jamesr said:

Skrine was called for defensive holding once all year. Claiborne led the Jets with 4. Want to know who had more than that? Stephon Gilmore of the Patriots with 5 in the regular season and 2 more in the post season.

Skrine led the Jets in PI with 3. Want to know who had as many as that in the post season alone? J.C. Jackson of the Patriots, with 3 PI calls in the Chargers & Chiefs games. Plus he had one defensive holding penalty thrown in for good measure.

So that's 3 defensive holding calls AND 3 defensive PI calls against NE in the playoffs / Superbowl. Not sure where you get your 1 holding call in 3 playoff games from?

 

It's not if ITS WHEN calls come. Calling Pats DBs for holding up by 30? Whatever. There isn't a game played by the Patriots that Brady doesn't get some cheap holding or PI call on a crucial 3rd down to keep a drive going. I've been seeing it for years. In the KC game, Romo mentioned how much holding was going on in KCs 1st 3 drives, then he stopped because he's been told to quell the criticism. Stephon Gilmore literally puts his hands on WRs on EVERY ROUTE. 

[Jet Nut]

37 minutes ago, CanadaSteve said:

Again, small sample size, but yes, there has been more scoring of late, which the league wants.  But.....A strong defensive showing will always triumph.  The league is being built to ignore defense; You just cannot do that. 

True, I agree but the rule changes favoring offense is new too, so....

[Blackout]

Defense doesn't win championships. If it did you'd be able to attack the QB.

 

Yesterday was just horrible offensive execution by both QBs.

[jamesr]

Just now, Jetster said:

It's not if ITS WHEN calls come. Calling Pats DBs for haolding up by 30? Whatever. There isn't a game played by the Patriots that Brady doesn't get some cheap holding or PI call on a crucial 3rd down to keep a drive going. I've been seeing it for years. In the KC game, Romo mentioned how much holding was going on in KCs 1st 3 drives, then he stopped because he's been told to quell the criticism. Stephon Gilmore literally puts his hands on WRs on EVERY ROUTE. 

Gilmore was called for holding on 3rd and 11, with 12:18 left in the 4th quarter. Rams were on their own 22 and would have been forced to punt if not for the penalty. Score was 3-3 at the time.

Jackson was called for PI on the first play in the fourth quarter vs KC. It put the ball on the 1 yard line and KC scored a TD on the next play. Later in the 4th his holding call negated a fumble and NE recovery that would have given NE the ball at the KC 20. KC went on to score another TD on that drive, aided by another PI call - for 23 yards - on a 2nd and 10 incompletion at the KC 37.

[Jetster]

5 minutes ago, jamesr said:

Gilmore was called for holding on 3rd and 11, with 12:18 left in the 4th quarter. Rams were on their own 22 and would have been forced to punt if not for the penalty. Score was 3-3 at the time.

Jackson was called for PI on the first play in the fourth quarter vs KC. It put the ball on the 1 yard line and KC scored a TD on the next play. Later in the 4th his holding call negated a fumble and NE recovery that would have given NE the ball at the KC 20. KC went on to score another TD on that drive, aided by another PI call - for 23 yards - on a 2nd and 10 incompletion at the KC 37.

Yea, ok, this just tells me how few Patriot games you see. I live in New England & see all 16. This team is treated like Michael Jordan was.

[jamesr]

3 minutes ago, Jetster said:

Yea, ok, this just tells me how few Patriot games you see. I live in New England & see all 16. This team is treated like Michael Jordan was.

You said they only had one defensive holding call in three playoff games - they had 3.

You said they only get penalties when it doesn't matter - there were 4 on defensive backs in the last two games that could have (should have?) cost them the championship.

I'm not blind to the non-calls ... in the Jets Pats game the commentators talked of Gilmore's "great technique" where he basically wrapped his arm round the receiver's arm so he couldn't get both hands up to the ball.  (Fortunately I don't watch Patsie games when it's not the Jets).

Same happens in all sports - the big teams / favourites get more leeway than the run of the mill teams. For over a decade here in the UK it was a running joke how many decisions went the way of one team (Man Utd) that won all the time. But these things do eventually turn to other teams ... some day soon we will hear the Patsie fans crying about some other team getting all the calls, and we can remind them of how long it worked in their favour. Not that they'll listen.

[#27TheDominator]

23 minutes ago, Blackout said:

Defense doesn't win championships. If it did you'd be able to attack the QB.

 

Yesterday was just horrible offensive execution by both QBs.

It was nice watching Donald bounce that hairplugged ****er

[Losmeister]

6 hours ago, Warfish said:

Who is the Patriots elite edge pass rusher?  4th Rounder Trey Flowers, with his 7.5 sacks?

Is 4th rounder Deatrich Wise (and his 4.5 sacks) an elite edge rusher?

If anaything, the Pats are evidence that you do not, in fact, need a #1 draft pick "elite edge rusher" to win Super Bowls.

Yes, Defense is important.  Yes, we want a good D to go with (we hope) a top 10 Offense.

But no, this Super Bowl is not in any way justification for the ongoing "we must draft more D-Linemen!  Something something edge!  Something something elite!" that infests JN like a plague.

When we have a top 10 offense, fine, then draft some D as needed.  Till then, we must support Sam Darnold if we are to have any chance whatsoever to win games.

They continue to find these guys...Vrabel, Ninkovich, VanNoy...and we pick Darroon Lee and cherry pick plays where he isnt an absolute abomination to try to make us acceot him

[rangerous]

2 hours ago, Jetster said:

Show me another Coach & QB that have been together for 17 years? 

17 is pretty unusual.  usually the qb just goes south. shula and marino were together for at least 10. before that shula and griese were together for about 10.  landry and staubach for about 10 or 11.  montana and walsh were together for about 12 or 13.  flacco and harbaugh were together for about 10.  even rodgers and mccarthy were together for about 10.  and then look at the steelers with roethlisberger.  he's been through two coaches and both have made the show with him at qb.

[Philc1]

6 hours ago, CanadaSteve said:

Yet only 13 points were given up to a good Patriot offense, and only 3 points given up to a great Rams defense.

It isn't about where guys are drafted, it is about how good the defense plays. 

Meanwhile the greatest offenses ever KC and the Saints were watching the Super Bowl at the golf course

[Philc1]

2 hours ago, Blackout said:

Defense doesn't win championships. If it did you'd be able to attack the QB.

 

Yesterday was just horrible offensive execution by both QBs.

Bott qbs got hit.  Did u watch the game?

[bealeb319]

Pretty certain the defenses were not as good as people are saying and both offenses had poor performances yesterday.

Sent from my LGUS991 using JetNation.com mobile app

[nyjunc]

4 hours ago, #27TheDominator said:

He threw for 350 yards against the Pats.  If "defense won championships" the Ravens who were a historically good D  (again) would have made it past the divisional round. You have this silly way of simpifying everything and downplaying "doing enough to win."  Sometimes a great D will play prevent to win and so will a great QB - like Joe in Super Bowl III.

I was talking about Peyton. As far as Eli goes his D dominated against Brady twice, Rodgers, favre, Romo, Ryan, Smith.  They won because of defense, he's never won a playoff game where his D gave up more than 20 points- that's all we need to know

[Philc1]

2 minutes ago, nyjunc said:

I was talking about Peyton. As far as Eli goes his D dominated against Brady twice, Rodgers, favre, Romo, Ryan, Smith.  They won because of defense, he's never won a playoff game where his D gave up more than 20 points- that's all we need to know

Literally the only times Brady has lost in the super bowl were against teams that had a pass rush.  

 

Gee...

[Philc1]

2 minutes ago, bealeb319 said:

Pretty certain the defenses were not as good as people are saying and both offenses had poor performances yesterday.

Sent from my LGUS991 using JetNation.com mobile app
 

You think the rams defense didn’t play outstanding yesterday?

[nyjunc]

3 hours ago, Jet Nut said:

No, he should be penalized because his QB is playing into his 40's.  That should work against him.

Lombardi had one QB who won, whos knocking him.  Paul Brown had one.  Knoll won with one QB.

ANyone taking them off the list of top HCs because of their QBs?

Where do you come up with this stuff, you do notice that youre the only one who believes this stuff.   

Lombardi didn't have a chance with another QB but Bart was 3-15-1 as a starter pre Lombardi.

Brown made Championship games with multiple QBs.

Noll made an AFC championship game with mark Malone and another postseason with bubby brister

Belichick has had SEVEN seasons without Brady, that is a fairly large sample size with 5 losing sessons and just 1 WC playoff app and 1 WC playoff win

[Greensleeves]

9 hours ago, CanadaSteve said:

Its an offensive league, no doubt.  But all the effort by the NFL to tip the scales toward high scoring, CFL level type games (protection of QB's, more PI and Holding calls, late hit rule changes, etc), but they cannot change the truth of the matter.

In the end, Defense still plays an important part of the game.  When you only score 16 points in a Super Bowl, no matter how bad one of the QB's was, it means that side of the ball is still VERY important in the success/failure of a team.

That was as great an example as you can get of 'coaches' win championships. That defense was not a great D - they just had a great gameplay. 

[Blackout]

39 minutes ago, Philc1 said:

Bott qbs got hit.  Did u watch the game?

 

Of course.  This wasn't some mid 2000s Ravens-Steelers classic slugfest. It was awful offense.  Brady and Goff were awful.

[New York Mick]

32 minutes ago, Philc1 said:

Literally the only times Brady has lost in the super bowl were against teams that had a pass rush.  

 

Gee...

The Eagles scored 41 points, Brady was sacked once and had over 500 yards so I’m guessing offense helps. 

[Jet Nut]

34 minutes ago, nyjunc said:

Lombardi didn't have a chance with another QB but Bart was 3-15-1 as a starter pre Lombardi.

Brown made Championship games with multiple QBs.

Noll made an AFC championship game with mark Malone and another postseason with bubby brister

Belichick has had SEVEN seasons without Brady, that is a fairly large sample size with 5 losing sessons and just 1 WC playoff app and 1 WC playoff win

You can spin anything to make some pointless argument.  None of any of your twisted circle logic has a thing to do with penalizing Belichick for one QB who he has going strong into his 40s.  

Noll made what?  We're talking championships.  Not making the postseason with Brister.  Using your logic Rex is a HOF HC making a AFCCG with a scrub named Sanchize