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Would the Jets need to give up a 2019 pick for OBJ or AB?


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13 hours ago, jgb said:

 

 

I was pointing out the difference between correlation and causation.

 

That's fine, but there are good reasons to think that guys like AB and Odell are major distractions who disrupt team chemistry. 

I would also never argue that Odell is the reason the Giants haven't won, only that you don't need a guy like Odell to win big. 

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13 hours ago, adb280z said:

If you're looking only at Super Bowls remember one team dominates that category in the last decade but Santonio Holmes, Plaxico Burress would both be considered lunatic diva WRs and they both won.

Holmes - absolutely (although notice that they won with him back in 08, BEFORE he became a major headache who they felt compelled to ship out of town)

Burress - A bit of a trickier case because his biggest issue with the Giants was really just shooting himself in the foot

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5 hours ago, Ghost said:

I completely understand why everyone is against having these players in the locker room. However, I’d take OBJ. When was the last time the Jets have had a player of his caliber? Never. 

Giants will not trade him. 

As far as talent goes, Beckham is as talented as any Wide Receiver in the League.  When you talk about the "caliber" of a player, you have to consider other things.  Reliability, Consistency, Character, Leadership, Production, Longevity, are all attributes of a "High Caliber" star.  This is where Beckham fails, This is also, the Giant's reticence about dealing him notwithstanding, why I have no interest in bringing him to the Jets.   

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4 minutes ago, joenamathwouldn'tcry said:

Well, that too. Was going to include it in my post but forgot.  And no, Walt "Clyde" Frazier wasn't a Diva, either.

what about the tearful retirement over his restaurant & Rozelle - followed by unretiring? c'mon man - you guys would DEFINITELY label Namath a diva if he were this character on another team today.

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2 minutes ago, Barry McCockinner said:

what about the tearful retirement over his restaurant & Rozelle - followed by unretiring? c'mon man - you guys would DEFINITELY label Namath a diva if he were this character on another team today.

Everyone is always telling me that only real men aren't afraid to cry.  Any mortal being with as much bodily hair as Joe Namath is automatically disqualified for Diva status, don't you know the rules?

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45 minutes ago, joenamathwouldn'tcry said:

As far as talent goes, Beckham is as talented as any Wide Receiver in the League.  When you talk about the "caliber" of a player, you have to consider other things.  Reliability, Consistency, Character, Leadership, Production, Longevity, are all attributes of a "High Caliber" star.  This is where Beckham fails, This is also, the Giant's reticence about dealing him notwithstanding, why I have no interest in bringing him to the Jets.   

What has he done tho? He’s recently questioned Eli’s decisions but do you really blame him? 

 

 

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14 minutes ago, Ghost said:

What has he done tho? He’s recently questioned Eli’s decisions but do you really blame him? 

 

 

No, but it goes beyond that.  The Pizza post, the California comment, it's just always something with him.  Relatively quiet lately, when injured, that's to be expected.  Next year, first bump in the road, or not, there'll be more.  Always is with this guy. You know the type, the "just can't help themselves"?  I think he's one of those, unfortunately.

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7 hours ago, slimjasi said:

That's fine, but there are good reasons to think that guys like AB and Odell are major distractions who disrupt team chemistry. 

I would also never argue that Odell is the reason the Giants haven't won, only that you don't need a guy like Odell to win big. 

Football is the ultimate team sport. There are infinite ways to win. There is no one thing that you “need” to win big other than (most likely) a base level competency at QB.  As long as you have strengths to offset your weaknesses, there are myriad ways to build a winner.

Teams have won without elite QBs, pass rushers, WRs, RBs, or OLs... nevertheless any of these things still help!

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4 minutes ago, jgb said:

Football is the ultimate team sport. There are infinite ways to win. There is no one thing that you “need” to win big other than (most likely) a base level competency at QB.  As long as you have strengths to offset your weaknesses, there are myriad ways to build a winner.

I agree, but some strengths/weaknesses are very hard to quantify. Intangibles like team chemistry and culture are two prime examples. I believe those things matter a lot. 

And while I agree that there are probably infinite ways to win, some ways are much easier/more likely than others. IMO, having disruptive guys in your locker room greatly reduces your chances for long term success. 

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Just now, slimjasi said:

I agree, but some strengths/weaknesses are very hard to quantify. Intangibles like team chemistry and culture are two prime examples. I believe those things matter a lot. 

And while I agree that there are probably infinite ways to win, some ways are much easier/more likely than others. IMO, having disruptive guys in your locker room greatly reduces your chances for long term success. 

I’ll grant you that

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12 hours ago, Jet Nut said:

Name those diva WRs who are disruptive to a team that have won SBs.  Plenty?  Should be easy.  Dez, no.  Chad, no.  OBJ no.  AB, no.  TO, no.  Moss, no.  A dynasty with a diva, who? 

Micheal Irvin (still a DIVA Now in the commentator role) , Terrell Owens SF, Randy Moss (Patriots Undefeated Season lost in SB) Yes Antonio Brown made it too a SB, Plaxico Burress Pitt and Giants, Andre Reed Bills (probably more of a pussy than a diva) , Andre Rison Packers, Lynn Swann was somewhat of a Diva but he was not in any way disruptive to the team They won 4 SB's in 5 years. Gronk Plays TE but he certainly could be in the DIVA category. Santonio Holmes Pitt

Also the Original Question was not worded as disruptive WR's just Diva WR's

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17 hours ago, joenamathwouldn'tcry said:

No, but it goes beyond that.  The Pizza post, the California comment, it's just always something with him.  Relatively quiet lately, when injured, that's to be expected.  Next year, first bump in the road, or not, there'll be more.  Always is with this guy. You know the type, the "just can't help themselves"?  I think he's one of those, unfortunately.

I think every roster has some of those players. Robby Anderson, we know his story. Trumaine Johnson, was consistently late to meetings. Jermaine Kearse, called out the offense.  

Sometimes you have to take a risk. 

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AB is not what this team needs right now.  He's completely unraveled over the past few months & he's on the wrong side of 30.

OBJ on the other hand, is a generational talent & still has his best football ahead of him.   I'd give them our early 3rd rounder this year or a 2020 2nd, or maybe they want to get creative and involve some sort of a first round swap this year.  But it doesn't matter, because even if the Giants were to trade him, they would NEVER trade him to the Jets.

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On 2/13/2019 at 8:37 PM, Matt39 said:

Darnold having to throw to Odell/Brown when they arent open to get them their targets would be a disaster. 

 Defenses end up doubling these guys, QB ends up throwing to the guy who's open, Brown/Beckham melt down because they want the ball when they arent open. It's why the Patriots shy away from guys who demand the ball. Brady isnt throwing to anyone who's double covered.

https://profootballtalk.nbcsports.com/2019/02/18/patriots-interest-in-obj-made-giants-think-twice-about-trading-him/

People always talk about how the Patriots wouldn't sign or trade for play makers with warts. They've done it several times before and they tried to do it for OBJ last season. 

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2 hours ago, Barry McCockinner said:

https://profootballtalk.nbcsports.com/2019/02/18/patriots-interest-in-obj-made-giants-think-twice-about-trading-him/

People always talk about how the Patriots wouldn't sign or trade for play makers with warts. They've done it several times before and they tried to do it for OBJ last season. 

Yeah I dont believe that for a second.

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On 2/15/2019 at 11:03 AM, F00tballGuy69 said:

AB is not what this team needs right now.  He's completely unraveled over the past few months & he's on the wrong side of 30.

OBJ on the other hand, is a generational talent & still has his best football ahead of him.   I'd give them our early 3rd rounder this year or a 2020 2nd, or maybe they want to get creative and involve some sort of a first round swap this year.  But it doesn't matter, because even if the Giants were to trade him, they would NEVER trade him to the Jets.

AB is exactly what the jets need.  Our WRs suck frankly

 

Oh and Leveon Bell is a friggin running back enough hype about him

 

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2 hours ago, Barry McCockinner said:

https://profootballtalk.nbcsports.com/2019/02/18/patriots-interest-in-obj-made-giants-think-twice-about-trading-him/

People always talk about how the Patriots wouldn't sign or trade for play makers with warts. They've done it several times before and they tried to do it for OBJ last season. 

Not only that but the “Patriot Way” somehow only works when Tom Brady is playing

 

Brady can make any wr look good

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