JetNation Prospect Preview: Kentucky Linebacker Josh Allen

[RichardTodd27]

19 hours ago, Jet_Engine1 said:

Adam Vinieteri has about 6 rings. As a matter of fact, EVERY SB winning team had at least one kicker!! Lets draft 4 kickers, then!!

 

 

Its as valid as the point you're making....

 

?

I think you misunderstood Phil's point - Elite pass rushers are much more valuable than shut down corners.

Can't really disagree with him when you see the Giants beat an undefeated and unbeatable Pats team with their pass rush, or when Denver used the same recipe to beat a heavily favorite Carolina team 

[JetFaninMI]

2 hours ago, joenamathwouldn'tcry said:

That would be a shocking pick and there's no way, " Mr. BPA"  would do that, certainly not this year.  Any "reach" would put him in the spotlight immediately, and any perception of failure would put him squarely in the crosshairs of the fan base and media.  This is not Denzel Ward, he is much more of an "unknown" entity.  Late first rounder.

Well it depends on what happens in FA but its a realistic scenario. Especially if Greedy blows up the combine and the Jets are able to use the FA period to sign that much needed edge rusher and shore up the OL. They need to be smart on how they spend that cap money and a CB on a rookie deal who could come right in and play might just be a way to maximize their spending. Don't think I'm a fan of this and I want to trade that pick as I believe they need a second rounder this year but trading that pick won't be easy as it takes 2 to tango as we all know. Stranger things have happened with this team and I could see this scenario developing quite easily. Hope not but it could happen.

 

[Jetsfan80]

On 2/16/2019 at 8:04 AM, FidelioJet said:

Draft offense.

Ok.  Who?

[Jetsfan80]

20 hours ago, Jet_Engine1 said:

Time to draft Offense. I don't care if its a "reach", I don't care if its a WR or a Guard at this point. But they have to stop making the same mistakes over and over again.  

  

So you're advocating taking a Guard at 3.  Sweet. 

It may not be the "same mistake over and over" if we do that.  But it certainly would be a brand new kind of mistake, so that's something I guess. 

[Jet_Engine1]

9 minutes ago, Jetsfan80 said:

So you're advocating taking a Guard at 3.  Sweet. 

It may not be the "same mistake over and over" if we do that.  But it certainly would be a brand new kind of mistake, so that's something I guess. 

Lets ask Andrew Luck what he thinks about the "mistake" of drafting Nelson at 6... 

[Jetsfan80]

4 minutes ago, Jet_Engine1 said:

Lets ask Andrew Luck what he thinks about the "mistake" of drafting Nelson at 6... 

6.  After trading down and picking up three 2nd rounders.

Not 3, with zero 2nd rounders. 

Without a trade down, we need to be taking an elite player at a premium position at 3.  Guard doesn't qualify there. 

[Jet_Engine1]

2 minutes ago, Jetsfan80 said:

6.  After trading down and picking up three 2nd rounders.

Not 3, with zero 2nd rounders. 

Without a trade down, we need to be taking an elite player at a premium position at 3.  Guard doesn't qualify there. 

Its just such bad timing for this to be a DL heavy draft. Again. I get the "smart" pick and the premium positions, but man, so burnt out on drafting at the same position over and over again for limited returns. We need to trade down so bad this year. 

[FidelioJet]

1 hour ago, Jetsfan80 said:

Ok.  Who?

Whoever is their top rated offensive player is...

[joenamathwouldn'tcry]

2 hours ago, RichardTodd27 said:

Couldn't disagree more. Corners get safety help and their job is made much easier when the QB doesn't have all day to throw the ball (thanks to elite pass rushers). Corners just can't effect the game the way a dominate edge rusher can.

In today's NFL, QB's have so many passing options at wr/te/rb. Having a shut down corner has minimal effect (taking away 1 wr), whereas an elite pass rusher can take away all those options.

Could have ended this discussion with two words.....  KHALIL MACK.

2 hours ago, RichardTodd27 said:

  On ‎2‎/‎16‎/‎2019 at 1:59 PM, rangerous said:

my point is they need to score points and imo a superior corner is more important than an edge rusher because the corner can't necessarily rely on the guy next to him to cover his responsibilit

The skewing of the rules to favor wide receivers and the referees steadfast refusal to let the Cornerbacks play any defense, at all, has diminished the position to almost a non entity in today's game.  It has really hurt the game, causing it at times to resemble the NBA and not the National Football League.

[joenamathwouldn'tcry]

1 hour ago, Jet_Engine1 said:

Lets ask Andrew Luck what he thinks about the "mistake" of drafting Nelson at 6... 

If there were a  Quentin Nelson in this years draft,  you'd have a point and I'd tend to agree with you.  Sadly, there isn't one, so we're faced with the prospect off trading down, or going defense.  Sorry. I'm torn between laughing and feeling bad for you watching you lose your mind over this.  Feel better.  Soon.

[Jetsfan80]

6 minutes ago, FidelioJet said:

Whoever is their top rated offensive player is...

Exactly what I thought. 

Those advocating we take defense can point out players they want, why they want them, and why those would be good selections.

The others call those people stupid, say "take offense!", can't name a player worth taking at 3, and instead list off all of the past Jets mistakes as if that has anything to do with who the best picks should be in the 2019 draft. 

[flgreen]

Actually after the National Championship game, I'm off of both Jonah Williams, who struggled against Ferrell , and Q Williams who was OK but nothing impressive.

So yeah I'm good with either Allen, or Ferrell.  This is if Bosa is off the board of course

[Jetster]

On 2/16/2019 at 10:44 AM, joenamathwouldn'tcry said:

Very nice player.  But, if  the "War in the trenches" wins football games, you draft Quinnen Williams.  He is the trench.  Unblockable , even when double teamed. Dominant.  Will anchor the defensive line for years.  Will improve the entire unit. Can't miss.  Won't miss.  Hope he" falls" to us.  Biggest Defensive raw talent in this draft.  Bar none.

I think we land pass rushers in free agency. You could be right, 2 pass rushers signed B4 draft, Jet go BPA, Quinnen Williams.

Free agent rusher- Q.Williams-L.Williams- Free agent pass rusher

Good depth with Shepard, Foley, maybe Anderson? 

[Pac]

55 minutes ago, Jetsfan80 said:

Exactly what I thought. 

Those advocating we take defense can point out players they want, why they want them, and why those would be good selections.

The others call those people stupid, say "take offense!", can't name a player worth taking at 3, and instead list off all of the past Jets mistakes as if that has anything to do with who the best picks should be in the 2019 draft. 

Who gave you smart pills?  You're finally making sense.

Picking offense just to pick offense is beyond idiotic.  These guys may as well vent now rather than getting their Hope's up.  If the Jets stay at 3 they are picking defense.  Period.

[Jetster]

1 hour ago, Jet_Engine1 said:

Its just such bad timing for this to be a DL heavy draft. Again. I get the "smart" pick and the premium positions, but man, so burnt out on drafting at the same position over and over again for limited returns. We need to trade down so bad this year. 

It might matter if were right up against the cap as we were for years after Parcells, then Rex. But what if they think this Quinnen Williams hasn't scratched the surface & is a "Gold Jacket candidate" as they like to say? 

I would hate to pass on a bigger Warren Sapp, but 6-4" & 300 and he's only 21. Sapp was 6-2", 300. He just might help Leo go off with 2 pass rushers to contend with on the edges. Kids still a baby and could turn into a monster. There's talk already of Arizona taking him #1 overall. They already have Chandler Jones & couldn't stop the run last year. 

[FidelioJet]

1 hour ago, Jetsfan80 said:

Exactly what I thought. 

Those advocating we take defense can point out players they want, why they want them, and why those would be good selections.

The others call those people stupid, say "take offense!", can't name a player worth taking at 3, and instead list off all of the past Jets mistakes as if that has anything to do with who the best picks should be in the 2019 draft. 

I didn't explain my point -  Let me try and do so without the snarkyness.

I can list off the names of top offensive prospects - to say I couldn't go copy a list is silly -

The point is the NY Jets are incredibly devoid of talent on the offensive side of the ball.  There are a number of tackles and a WR or two I would happily take at 3 if we can't trade down.

This idea that there's no offensive player worth taking at 3 is just simplistic and shortsighted.

What are the odds that a player taken at 10 ends up being better than the player taken at 3?  My guess is it's pretty close - the draft is a crapshoot 

How many players have the Jets passed on through the years that end up being studs vs. our bust?  It's certainly possible the guy we pass on at 3 ends up being a superstar, but so might the guy taken 10 that we pass on at 3.

You build the team around Sam - take the best offensive player on the board and don't look back.

 

[Bowles Movement]

On 2/16/2019 at 10:44 AM, joenamathwouldn'tcry said:

Very nice player.  But, if  the "War in the trenches" wins football games, you draft Quinnen Williams.  He is the trench.  Unblockable , even when double teamed. Dominant.  Will anchor the defensive line for years.  Will improve the entire unit. Can't miss.  Won't miss.  Hope he" falls" to us.  Biggest Defensive raw talent in this draft.  Bar none.

Thats kind of what Im reading.  Some have him rated much higher than Bosa.  I didnt see it when he played Clemson in the title game

IF he is the best and a possible Aaron Donald type player than you got to take him if he is there

[joenamathwouldn'tcry]

41 minutes ago, Bowles Movement said:

Thats kind of what Im reading.  Some have him rated much higher than Bosa.  I didnt see it when he played Clemson in the title game

IF he is the best and a possible Aaron Donald type player than you got to take him if he is there

Keep on reading and keep on watching.  What you'll find is that Quinnen Williams is the only player in this draft without any question marks or "warts".  And he is still only 21 years old.  A baby.  Like Sam.  Can you imagine having one of those kind of players on each side of the ball?  It  would set us up for success for years to come.  All the rest have doubters.  Bosa, injured, took the year off, didn't rush to return:  Allen, questioned lateral movement, speed, "one trick pony":  Rashan Gary, perennial "best" player, underachiever, lateral mobility, questionable motor:  Ed Oliver, size only, 6;1", quality of competition ,played  in mediocre program:  Clelin Ferrell, edge speed and burst is not exceptional, blockable, not projected to be an immediate impact player.  The biggest knock against Williams?  He didn't have a dominant game in the National Championship against Clemson where his entire team was soundly beaten.  I'll take it. Oh, and Jets fans are tired of drafting defensive players high in the draft.

[RobR]

1 hour ago, joenamathwouldn'tcry said:

Keep on reading and keep on watching.  What you'll find is that Quinnen Williams is the only player in this draft without any question marks or "warts".  And he is still only 21 years old.  A baby.  Like Sam.  Can you imagine having one of those kind of players on each side of the ball?  It  would set us up for success for years to come.  All the rest have doubters.  Bosa, injured, took the year off, didn't rush to return:  Allen, questioned lateral movement, speed, "one trick pony":  Rashan Gary, perennial "best" player, underachiever, lateral mobility, questionable motor:  Ed Oliver, size only, 6;1", quality of competition ,played  in mediocre program:  Clelin Ferrell, edge speed and burst is not exceptional, blockable, not projected to be an immediate impact player.  The biggest knock against Williams?  He didn't have a dominant game in the National Championship against Clemson where his entire team was soundly beaten.  I'll take it. Oh, and Jets fans are tired of drafting defensive players high in the draft.

You're leaving out that he had one year of production at the college level. Is that not a red flag?

[BCJet]

9 minutes ago, RobR said:

You're leaving out that he had one year of production at the college level. Is that not a red flag?

If would be if he wasn't playing due to injury or not being able to beat out a marginal, older player at his position.

Williams was behind a first and 4th round pick in 2018 and first and second round picks in 2017, thats why he only has one year of major playing time.

[RobR]

2 minutes ago, BCJet said:

If would be if he wasn't playing due to injury or not being able to beat out a marginal, older player at his position.

Williams was behind a first and 4th round pick in 2018 and first and second round picks in 2017, thats why he only has one year of major playing time.

But people are making him out to be a generational player on here. If he was that type of player he'd be playing over those other guys you listed.... I mean cmon, a fourth round pick.

[Philc1]

6 hours ago, Jet_Engine1 said:

Lets ask Andrew Luck what he thinks about the "mistake" of drafting Nelson at 6... 

There is no Nelson in this draft.  I’d still take Jonah at 3 if Allen is gone however

[Philc1]

10 minutes ago, RobR said:

But people are making him out to be a generational player on here. If he was that type of player he'd be playing over those other guys you listed.... I mean cmon, a fourth round pick.

I heard this same kind of hype when the jets traded up for Dewayne Robertson

 

A pre-Bowles Muhammed Wilkerson was all-pro and yet he never even sniffed a playoff game. Interior DL are just not that important in today’s nfl

[joenamathwouldn'tcry]

29 minutes ago, RobR said:

You're leaving out that he had one year of production at the college level. Is that not a red flag?

Good point.  In this case, however no.  He's going to the next level, it's not as if he were injured, transferred, or red shirted.  He's a true sophomore, what should he do, stay in school one more year to legitimize this years stats?  But it is a good point. Not a red flag.

[RobR]

20 minutes ago, joenamathwouldn'tcry said:

Good point.  In this case, however no.  He's going to the next level, it's not as if he were injured, transferred, or red shirted.  He's a true sophomore, what should he do stay in school one more year to legitimize this years stats?  But it is a good point. Not a red flag.

True sophomores are not eligible for the draft, he's a rs sophomore. 

Now take a guy like Oliver who is a true junior. He was All American every year he played and won the Outland trophy as the nations best interior lineman as a 19 year old true sophomore.

[New York Mick]

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[joenamathwouldn'tcry]

1 hour ago, RobR said:

True sophomores are not eligible for the draft, he's a rs sophomore. 

Now take a guy like Oliver who is a true junior. He was All American every year he played and won the Outland trophy as the nations best interior lineman as a 19 year old true sophomore.

You can try to manipulate it any way you like, This year Williams was the Outland Trophy winner, picked over Oliver.  Williams is a better player.

[RobR]

16 minutes ago, joenamathwouldn'tcry said:

You can try to manipulate it any way you like, This year Williams was the Outland Trophy winner, picked over Oliver.  Williams is a better player.

I'm not tying to manipulate anything, just stating facts. Oliver was also injured this year and missed games.

Just wait until the combine rolls around and a guy like Oliver bests Williams in every single category, especially when it comes to explosiveness. 

[joenamathwouldn'tcry]

5 minutes ago, RobR said:

I'm not tying to manipulate anything, just stating facts. Oliver was also injured this year and missed games.

Just wait until the combine rolls around and a guy like Oliver bests Williams in every single category, especially when it comes to explosiveness. 

Ok. But you know what they say about the combine.  The road to perdition is riddled with the bodies of workout warriors. Cones don't score touchdowns.

[RobR]

Just now, joenamathwouldn'tcry said:

Ok. But you know what they say about the combine.  The road to perdition is riddled with the bodies of workout warriors.

It's different when the tape is there to back up their play. I do agree about someone having a great combine, skyrocketing up the boards and then when you watch him play all you come away with is meh. Oliver is not that guy. There's a reason why he was a 3x All American, won the Outland at 19, and was also a Conference player of the year. The tape is there, the combine numbers will reiterate why he's so dynamic. 

[joenamathwouldn'tcry]

9 minutes ago, RobR said:

It's different when the tape is there to back up their play. I do agree about someone having a great combine, skyrocketing up the boards and then when you watch him play all you come away with is meh. Oliver is not that guy. There's a reason why he was a 3x All American, won the Outland at 19, and was also a Conference player of the year. The tape is there, the combine numbers will reiterate why he's so dynamic. 

I am not belittling Oliver.  He is an excellent player.  Quinnen Williams is simply better. That 4th rounder that beat Williams out at 'Bama, his name is Da'Shawn Hand.  Plays for the Lions.  So does Damon Harrison.  Think you know him.  This is what "Snacks" said about Hand.  "Hand will be one of the top 3 Defensive Linemen in the league.. at any position on the line! He's the present and the future!!". Not too shabby, huh?  The #! draft pick who played in front of Williams?  Da'Ron Payne.  Think you've heard of him too.  Had a pretty good rookie year also. Going to be around for a while.  My point here is that this caliber of player is not common  in the American Athletic Conference.  They are common in the SEC.  That is the difference.

[RobR]

5 minutes ago, joenamathwouldn'tcry said:

My point here is that this caliber of player is not common  in the American Athletic Conference.  They are common in the SEC.  That is the difference.

You are almost 100% right. Oliver was the first ever 5 star recruit too sign with a team that plays in that conference....ever. 

We'll see as it plays out over the next few weeks but I'm still sticking to my guns. IMO Oliver will have a much greater impact at the NFL level than QW. He's going to test freakish at the combine and he was the one player in that conference that teams had to gameplan for. I can't say the same about QW. QW seems like another Leonard Williams to me with only one year of tape behind him playing on a team that was vastly superior to their opponents....minus one game. If he tests better than Leo maybe I'll start to change my mind but I'm notoriously stubborn. 

What's lost in this back and forth is I still want offense in round 1. My only point about Oliver is I could live with and understand the pick. QW not so much.

[joenamathwouldn'tcry]

12 minutes ago, RobR said:

You are almost 100% right. Oliver was the first ever 5 star recruit too sign with a team that plays in that conference....ever. 

We'll see as it plays out over the next few weeks but I'm still sticking to my guns. IMO Oliver will have a much greater impact at the NFL level than QW. He's going to test freakish at the combine and he was the one player in that conference that teams had to gameplan for. I can't say the same about QW. QW seems like another Leonard Williams to me with only one year of tape behind him playing on a team that was vastly superior to their opponents....minus one game. If he tests better than Leo maybe I'll start to change my mind but I'm notoriously stubborn. 

What's lost in this back and forth is I still want offense in round 1. My only point about Oliver is I could live with and understand the pick. QW not so much.

Like I told @Jet.Engine1, and @14 in Green if there was an offensive player in the draft worthy of the #3 overall, I'd be all in.  There isn't one.  I want the Jets to be able to trade down in the worst way.  If they can't, I'm convinced this is the player most likely to be a long term impact stud for this organization.  The player we hoped Leonard Williams would be, but isn't.

[RobR]

5 minutes ago, joenamathwouldn'tcry said:

Like I told @JetEngine1, and @14 in Green if there was an offensive player in the draft worthy of the #3

I still think when all is said and done Jonah Williams will be in that discussion.....if he measures.

[RobR]

2 hours ago, joenamathwouldn'tcry said:

I am not belittling Oliver.  He is an excellent player.  Quinnen Williams is simply better. That 4th rounder that beat Williams out at 'Bama, his name is Da'Shawn Hand.  Plays for the Lions.  So does Damon Harrison.  Think you know him.  This is what "Snacks" said about Hand.  "Hand will be one of the top 3 Defensive Linemen in the league.. at any position on the line! He's the present and the future!!". Not too shabby, huh?  The #! draft pick who played in front of Williams?  Da'Ron Payne.  Think you've heard of him too.  Had a pretty good rookie year also. Going to be around for a while.  My point here is that this caliber of player is not common  in the American Athletic Conference.  They are common in the SEC.  That is the difference.

One more piece of evidence and I know it's a highlight video but watch the way he moves at the three minute mark. I've never seen a player of that size move sideline to sideline like that.