The Gap is closing....or not....

[Mogglez]

5 minutes ago, 14 in Green said:

Not looking to argue, but if that's the be all and end all with him, why was/is he such a highly regarded QB prospect? Why would anyone ever have considered him at the top of the draft?

Same reason all of these guys were:

"Physical tools", "Size", and "Upside".

[UntouchableCrew]

2 minutes ago, 14 in Green said:

Not looking to argue, but if that's the be all and end all with him, why was/is he such a highly regarded QB prospect? Why would anyone ever have considered him at the top of the draft?

Because GMs, scouts, and coaches have been falling in love with big, rocket armed QBs who are inaccurate since the dawn of time.

[jack48]

this is silly because it is reasonable to expect a well regarded rookie to make a significant jump from Year One to Year Two.  If this were a written article it would make good toilet paper.  The QB plays against the defense anyway.  Match them up properly.

[Patriot Killa]

7 minutes ago, 14 in Green said:

Not looking to argue, but if that's the be all and end all with him, why was/is he such a highly regarded QB prospect? Why would anyone ever have considered him at the top of the draft?

Physical traits are off the charts and ran a pro style system. that some how means he has a high  ceiling in some draft guru’s eyes. 

I guess it’s why Jamarcus Russell was the #1 overall pick.

[14 in Green]

36 minutes ago, UntouchableCrew said:

I think if you think it's 55-60 you're the one that's way off base... I mean if you remove Allen's running ability he had very few things to be excited about. Darnold had a much stronger rookie season as a passer and was a better prospect coming out. I'd be genuinely surprised if there were more than 1 or 2 GMs who would prefer Allen over Darnold at this juncture. 

I'd go as far as to say more GMs would take Darnold over Mayfield than would take Allen over Darnold. That said the clear hierarchy based on last year is Mayfield > Darnold > Allen >Rosen who was the most disappointing by far, although his offensive line was in absolute shambles.

Jackson is hard to get a read on. Played pretty well but was asked to do the least and had the smallest sample size... Then was completely hopeless in the playoffs.

Ok, you have your opinion I have mine. At this point either of us could be right, about the GMs who knows? As far as the rest of your post, I'll respectfully take issue with the following:

"Darnold had a MUCH stronger rookie season passing" (Uh no. Sorry, maybe slightly better and that's based solely on 3 good games. Aside from those 3 Darnold was stronger then nobody, lets be real.)

"Darnold was a better prospect coming out" (again, not really. Darnold's rep was made in the '16 season, he did nothing to improve his stock in '17, otherwise he'd have been the clear cut #1 overall pick instead of a coin flip type choice over Allen in 18.)

I'll use your math and say 32 out of 32 GMs would NOT "take Darnold over Mayfield" right now.

Agree with your "hierarchy 100%

Jackson was far from "completely hopeless in the playoffs". (Yeah he was really bad for 3 quarters, but if Sam had gotten off the deck and put together a 4th quarter like Jackson did, we'd all be clamoring there was no doubt we'd found the guy who'd take us to the Super Bowl.)

[Jet Nut]

1 hour ago, JiF said:

I dont see how it's pointless.  It's a data driven observation.  You can argue the validity of the data but do you really think it's that far off?  We hired someone for one particular reason and outside of coaching one of the greatest QB's of all time, there really isnt any proof Gase is QB whisperer.  No QB's actually improve under Gase's tutelage. 

Last year, Todd Bowles and Jeremy Bates had a rookie QB scoring almost 20 points higher than 2 veterans who had previously led teams to the playoffs.  Their offense was ranked higher in every single category than the Dolphins.  I find that concerning.  

 

One, he was at his best under Gase.  As was Manning.  Cutler did well.  So did Tebow.

One season for Tannehill makes it totally pointless.  Maybe less.  Even funnier is backing it up with Osweiler talk.  

How about just letti the game unfold before coming up with today's troll thread.  The OMG Gase sucks post are now turned into he's worse than Bowles.  Once again the misery message trumps those who look forward to the new staff and season.  

[JustInFudge]

3 minutes ago, Jet Nut said:

One, he was at his best under Gase.  As was Manning.  Cutler did well.  So did Tebow.

One season for Tannehill makes it totally pointless.  Maybe less 

No. No. No. Are you kidding me? 

No. No. 

[UntouchableCrew]

23 minutes ago, 14 in Green said:

Ok, you have your opinion I have mine. At this point either of us could be right, about the GMs who knows? As far as the rest of your post, I'll respectfully take issue with the following:

"Darnold had a MUCH stronger rookie season passing" (Uh no. Sorry, maybe slightly better and that's based solely on 3 good games. Aside from those 3 Darnold was stronger then nobody, lets be real.)

I mean, their stats weren't that close passing. Better completion percentage, better yards per attempt, better TD:INT ratio, better passer rating by 10 points. Darnold didn't set the world on fire but he was clearly a better passer than Allen, who was closer to last with Rosen than he was to Darnold... And it's ridiculous to remove Darnold's three best games without doing the same to Allen. Both guys (since, you know, they're rookies) are obviously hurt a lot by removing their best performances and both would be boosted a lot by removing their worst performances.

23 minutes ago, 14 in Green said:

"Darnold was a better prospect coming out" (again, not really. Darnold's rep was made in the '16 season, he did nothing to improve his stock in '17, otherwise he'd have been the clear cut #1 overall pick instead of a coin flip type choice over Allen in 18.)

Darnold was the consensus number one pick in 2018. People were shocked Baker went #1. To suggest anything else is disingenuous revisionist history.

23 minutes ago, 14 in Green said:

I'll use your math and say 32 out of 32 GMs would NOT "take Darnold over Mayfield" right now.

Right, that's your prerogative. Similar to how Baker clearly played better and would be the hotter commodity now (thus it's fair to assume that Baker would be the overwhelming favorite to be picked by the majority of GMs) the same is true of Darnold over Allen, as he was the more highly touted prospect and better passer as a rookie.

23 minutes ago, 14 in Green said:

Agree with your "hierarchy 100%

Jackson was far from "completely hopeless in the playoffs". (Yeah he was really bad for 3 quarters, but if Sam had gotten off the deck and put together a 4th quarter like Jackson did, we'd all be clamoring there was no doubt we'd found the guy who'd take us to the Super Bowl.)

"At halftime, Jackson was 2 for 8 for 17 yards and an interception for a 0.0 quarterback rating. Los Angeles led 12-0 at the break, marking the first time in franchise history the Ravens were blanked in the first half of a playoff game."

Yeah, he played great. That was one of the most embarrassing performances by a QB I've ever seen in an NFL game.

 

[14 in Green]

3 minutes ago, UntouchableCrew said:

I mean, their stats weren't that close passing. Better completion percentage, better yards per attempt, better TD:INT ratio, better passer rating by 10 points. Darnold didn't set the world on fire but he was clearly a better passer than Allen, who was closer to last with Rosen than he was to Darnold... And it's ridiculous to remove Darnold's three best games without doing the same to Allen. Both guys (since, you know, they're rookies) are obviously hurt a lot by removing their best performances and both would be boosted a lot by removing their worst performances.

Darnold was the consensus number one pick in 2018. People were shocked Baker went #1. To suggest anything else is disingenuous revisionist history.

Right, that's your prerogative. Similar to how Baker clearly played better and would be the hotter commodity now (thus it's fair to assume that Baker would be the overwhelming favorite to be picked by the majority of GMs) the same is true of Darnold over Allen, as he was the more highly touted prospect and better passer as a rookie.

"At halftime, Jackson was 2 for 8 for 17 yards and an interception for a 0.0 quarterback rating. Los Angeles led 12-0 at the break, marking the first time in franchise history the Ravens were blanked in the first half of a playoff game."

Yeah, he played great. That was one of the most embarrassing performances by a QB I've ever seen in an NFL game.

 

No argument, I said he was awful the first 3 quarters of that game, but had a fantastic 4th. Almost pulled off a miracle comeback? One question and then we can end this. (BTW, I enjoyed the back and forth.) Can you post either his 2nd half or his 4th quarter stats? You really weren't impressed how he finished that game?

[UntouchableCrew]

7 minutes ago, 14 in Green said:

No argument, I said he was awful the first 3 quarters of that game, but had a fantastic 4th. Almost pulled off a miracle comeback? One question and then we can end this. (BTW, I enjoyed the back and forth.) Can you post either his 2nd half or his 4th quarter stats? You really weren't impressed how he finished that game?

I mean, I think you're giving him way too much credit. When the score was 23-3 and the game was essentially over he had some garbage time stats that prevented him from having an all time historically bad box score. I mean, IIRC the Ravens didn't even advance over midfield until halfway through the third?

Let's just say I'm not sold on the Lamar Jackson era. I think I'd take any of the 2018 first round QBs, any of the 2017 first round QBs and any of the projected 2019 first round QBs over him.

[Patriot Killa]

42 minutes ago, 14 in Green said:

Darnold had a MUCH stronger rookie season passing" (Uh no. Sorry, maybe slightly better and that's based solely on 3 good games. Aside from those 3 Darnold was stronger then nobody, lets be real.)

Josh Allen’s top 5 QBR in 2018 —

1.)114.8

2.)111.8

3.)89.8

4.)89.3

5.)71.7

 

Sam Darnold’s top QBR in 2018 —

1.) 128.4

2.) 116.8

3.) 113.9

4.) 100.0

5.) 98.9

[Grandy]

4 hours ago, Obrien2Toon said:

Yeah Allen finished ahead of Darnold in just about every rating system, though Darnold did finish strong

and the knuckle heads on here keep laughing at Allen, I almost want him to succeed as much I want Darnold to

Allen is rated that high because those rating systems take into account his Vick-like rushing numbers. Based on passing alone, Allen is visibly lower than Darnold.

[Patriot Killa]

Bills fans don’t even have a problem admitting that Darnold is a superior and more polished passer. I’ve talked to plenty of them before.

Why are you guys arguing for it? I’m convinced you all just like to pick days you feel like playing devil’s advocate lol.

[14 in Green]

4 minutes ago, Patriot Killa said:

Josh Allen’s top 5 QBR in 2018 —

1.)114.8

2.)111.8

3.)89.8

4.)89.3

5.)71.7

 

Sam Darnold’s top QBR in 2018 —

1.) 128.4

2.) 116.8

3.) 113.9

4.) 100.0

5.) 98.9

To come full circle back to where we were earlier today, I do give Darnold a slight edge, but I'm not sold yet on who will end up being the better QB. I certainly hope its Darnold, I don't want to go through another QB search, that's for sure. 

3 minutes ago, Grandy said:

Allen is rated that high because those rating systems take into account his Vick-like rushing numbers. Based on passing alone, Allen is visibly lower than Darnold.

Which is absurd to discount in the first place. His ability to run is what sets him apart from the other QBs (except Jackson) taken last year.

[14 in Green]

5 minutes ago, Patriot Killa said:

Bills fans don’t even have a problem admitting that Darnold is a superior and more polished passer. I’ve talked to plenty of them before.

Why are you guys arguing for it? I’m convinced you all just like to pick days you feel like playing devil’s advocate lol.

Bingo!!! I'm bored, and now I've been busted!!!  

[GREENBEAN]

Get Sam Darnold some weapons if we want to close up that gap. 

I agree but If Sam has an O line everything will change. He can make a subpar cast look pretty good. He did it last year. He only went into the tailspin when we cut Pryor, enunwa and Anderson got hurt and Long started snapping the ball to the referee.
Sam came back and played well with Anderson, Burnett, Roberts, Herndon abd legget. Oh... and Richard



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[JetPotato]

1 hour ago, joewilly12 said:

Did the NFL drug test players back then?  Did they scrutinize what players did on and off the field? What PED's?  They used to allow Stick-em!!!!!

Not saying Joe Montana did any of the above, but Montana had Rice what WR did Brady have that was close to Jerry Rice?  

Belichick + spying + headsets + refs in pocket  >>>>>>>>>>>>>> Jerry Rice + getting hit by LT

[Patriot Killa]

4 minutes ago, 14 in Green said:

To come full circle back to where we were earlier today, I do give Darnold a slight edge, but I'm not sold yet on who will end up being the better QB. I certainly hope its Darnold, I don't want to go through another QB search, that's for sure. 

Which is absurd to discount in the first place. His ability to run is what sets him apart from the other QBs (except Jackson) taken last year.

Meh. 14..I can dig this narrative on the Baker v Darnold situation but Allen? I wholeheartedly don’t believe Allen has ever had it in him to be as good or as natural at QB as Sam Darnold. You have your stance, that’s fine. I just don’t see it at all brother. I understand players can get better but there’s only so much he can do to fix this accuracy problem. He isn’t even a 58-59% passer which is like Cam Newton. He’s a 52% passer and has been since college. I think he flames out in 4 years. He’ll have some highs but those lows are going to be a little more consistent and intolerable.

[UntouchableCrew]

4 minutes ago, 14 in Green said:

Which is absurd to discount in the first place. His ability to run is what sets him apart from the other QBs (except Jackson) taken last year.

It's a valuable asset for sure. But if I'm picking a franchise QB to groom for the next 20 years I want the better passer not the better athlete. The athleticism is much more likely to get him injured and will fade much more quickly.

[JetPotato]

1 hour ago, joewilly12 said:

Ok I take your word for it don't remember and don't feel like looking it up, doesn't change my opinion of who the GOAT is. 

Yeah. Never let facts get in the way of forming an opinion.

[GREENBEAN]

I will tell you!  It was almost 30 points higher under Philbin.  
If Gase is so good, why did Tannehill get worse? 

This is your first post in this thread that I am confident I know what you’re getting at. lol

10 years I’ve been reading posts from you and i still fall for the facetiousness.

Gase was a weird hire man. I have warned partially because I don’t have a choice but I could not have been more surprised by the choice. I’m hopeful that getting with darnold as a raw talent is the key for gase. Tannehil is not the best gauge but your point is valid.


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[joewilly12]

13 minutes ago, JetPotato said:

Yeah. Never let facts get in the way of forming an opinion.

OPINION is just that cant deny FACTS. 

[Mark78]

Brady rarely gets hit/sacked.  That is why he is still able to play at a high level at this age. Teams need to press the receivers at line of scrimmage and get some whacks on him.

[Jet Nut]

1 hour ago, JiF said:

No. No. No. Are you kidding me? 

No. No. 

Anyone who watched knows.  You can argue, you're entitled to you opinion.  

Kidding?  Not a chance in hell he was bad when he played his first season under Gase.  

Just like Manning, Cutler and Tebow in his offense.  

So, no, no one here is kidding.  

[Jet Nut]

2 hours ago, joewilly12 said:

Randy Moss - Jerry Rice?  No way did Brady have Moss for all 6 rings? Rice has 3 with Montana.

Moss has not one

[Mogglez]

3 hours ago, 14 in Green said:

To come full circle back to where we were earlier today, I do give Darnold a slight edge, but I'm not sold yet on who will end up being the better QB. I certainly hope its Darnold, I don't want to go through another QB search, that's for sure. 

Which is absurd to discount in the first place. His ability to run is what sets him apart from the other QBs (except Jackson) taken last year.

Well, not necessarily.  When you take into account that not even Cam Newton's body has been able to survive the hits that he is exposed too, and he was a farrrrrrr more accomplished passer than Allen coming out of Auburn (kept defenses more honest allowing him to run without taking momster shots ALL the time). 

Allen is a QB.  He's not a RB.  His largest weakness is accuracy and passing the ball.  His biggest strength is his ability to run.  Darnold's issues were more about being consistent, which he was down the stretch.  Respectfully, that's not something that warrants a "slight edge" when evaluating the two.  I could easily make the argument that Jackson is better than Allen right now, and I don't know how I feel about that kids future at all right now.  I'd bet good money that way more than half of the league would prefer Sam to Allen or Jackson pre draft and as of today though.

[14 in Green]

9 minutes ago, Mogglez said:

Well, not necessarily.  When you take into account that not even Cam Newton's body has been able to survive the hits that he is exposed too, and he was a farrrrrrr more accomplished passer than Allen coming out of Auburn (kept defenses more honest allowing him to run without taking momster shots ALL the time). 

Allen is a QB.  He's not a RB.  His largest weakness is accuracy and passing the ball.  His biggest strength is his ability to run.  Darnold's issues were more about being consistent, which he was down the stretch.  Respectfully, that's not something that warrants a "slight edge" when evaluating the two.  I could easily make the argument that Jackson is better than Allen right now, and I don't know how I feel about that kids future at all right now.  I'd bet good money that way more than half of the league would prefer Sam to Allen or Jackson pre draft and as of today though.

No argument here with that last sentence.

Basically all I've been trying to point out in this thread is that its far too soon to dismiss Allen as a passer. I don't believe he (or any of the other QBs) is a finished product. Though I agree I'd take Darnold over him in a second, I don't believe the difference between them is as great as most here believe.  Lets watch and see how this plays out...

[NYJ1]

12 hours ago, Patriot Killa said:

Bills fans don’t even have a problem admitting that Darnold is a superior and more polished passer. I’ve talked to plenty of them before.

Why are you guys arguing for it? I’m convinced you all just like to pick days you feel like playing devil’s advocate lol.

You mean like you with the illogical Darron Lee obsession? Lol

[T0mShane]

17 hours ago, JiF said:

In the universe that he also added 8 TD's on the ground and won more games, I'm guessing.  That said, I'd take Darnold 10 times out of 10 over Allen.  

 

 

17 hours ago, Patriot Killa said:

Yeah, that would be my guess too. Running statistics helped. He just isn’t the better passer, which is the most important thing to me. 

Are you guys saying that PFF overvalues peripheral pieces of a player’s game, especially pieces that aren’t necessarily germane to their actual positional value, and that by overvaluing those parts of their games it artificially inflates their overall PFF score? Thanks Mike, I’ll hang up and listen.

[joenamathwouldn'tcry]

15 hours ago, joewilly12 said:

Did the NFL drug test players back then?  Did they scrutinize what players did on and off the field? What PED's?  They used to allow Stick-em!!!!!

Not saying Joe Montana did any of the above, but Montana had Rice what WR did Brady have that was close to Jerry Rice?  

Now they have "magical gloves" today's "stickum gloves" are even superior to the substance of yesteryear.  Not only do they allow the ball to stick to the hands they also give cushion to the "sting" of the pass, and are good in all conditions.  All players use them now.  Think about it.  Do you remember all of these "near impossible" catches being made "back in the day"??  I don't.  Wide receivers hands didn't magically get bigger or more "educated".  They just got more cushioned and "tacky" that's all.  As for your other point, I tend to agree.  He had no Jerry Rice, no one has. But to hear people tell it the "Great Gronk", Welker and Edelman were freakishly good.  And then, of course, there's "The System". My preference is Montana, although my hatred for "all things Brady" may have something to do with it.?

[Patriot Killa]

4 hours ago, NYJ1 said:

You mean like you with the illogical Darron Lee obsession? Lol

I actually don’t like Darron Lee. I’m just not an over reactionary weirdo.

[T0mShane]

17 hours ago, GREENBEAN said:

This is your first post in this thread that I am confident I know what you’re getting at. lol


Dick. The answer is always “dick.”

[T0mShane]

14 minutes ago, Patriot Killa said:

I’m just not an over reactionary weirdo.

 

[JustInFudge]

17 hours ago, GREENBEAN said:

This is your first post in this thread that I am confident I know what you’re getting at. lol

10 years I’ve been reading posts from you and i still fall for the facetiousness.

Gase was a weird hire man. I have warned partially because I don’t have a choice but I could not have been more surprised by the choice. I’m hopeful that getting with darnold as a raw talent is the key for gase. Tannehil is not the best gauge but your point is valid.


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Clearly sharing this data had nothing to do with the Gap closing.  Brady vs. rookies - duh.  The bigger story was 2 rookies out scoring the 2 veterans led by our new QB whispering Head Coach.  Tannehill sucking or not really isnt the point, the Dolphins had enough confidence in him to give him a new deal and Gase failed to elevate his play.  

[GREENBEAN]

11 hours ago, JiF said:

Clearly sharing this data had nothing to do with the Gap closing.  Brady vs. rookies - duh.  The bigger story was 2 rookies out scoring the 2 veterans led by our new QB whispering Head Coach.  Tannehill sucking or not really isnt the point, the Dolphins had enough confidence in him to give him a new deal and Gase failed to elevate his play.  

Tannehill sucking is a factor though. I hear what you're saying about Gase not being able to improve his game, but would  Da Vince be blamed for not being able to make a masterpiece on canvas with a dog turd? He'd try of course, and it would show potential, but ultimately it would just be dog crap smeared on paper. 

Tannehill was having a solid season before he was injured and Gase had to go to the scrap heap.