Jonah Williams wingspan measurement and what it means

[Skeptable]

17 minutes ago, 14 in Green said:

I think the odds of Arizona taking Murray are a lot better then the Jets taking Jonah at #3.

Meh, I don't think they're even 50% (which also says a lot about what I think the odds are of us taking Jonah)

I think there would be quite a few teams interested in Rosen. We live in a "Jets world" where Darnold is head and shoulders better, but I don't think the rest of the league is as certain.

Just wait... Murray is going to be a polarizing player and he is going to be discussed at 1 and I think Rosen still has enough value to get another #1 pick,  If Murray actually falls... I don't see Gruden passing on him.

[14 in Green]

16 minutes ago, Skeptable said:

Again, I disagree... Murray is Russell Wilson+, he has a better arm and throws more in the pocket as well as faster... when he blows everyone away at the combine and workouts he is going top 3... and in my opinion Kingsbury will get his wish.... and if the cardinals can get a 1st for Rosen there is no loss.

At the very least, Rosen is as good as any QB coming out this year, probably a lot better. Easily worth a first round pick. 

The thing that makes him a possible trade option is the fact he plays for a team whose new HC is on record saying he'd take Murray with the first pick if he could (granted he didn't know he'd be in that position now), and the offense KK runs is a better fit for Murray then it is for Rosen. 

So a trade of Rosen wouldn't really be a knock on him, but simply an acknowledgement that like most QBs, he isn't as good a fit for KKs offense as Murray is.

[Augustiniak]

Just now, 14 in Green said:

At the very least, Rosen is as good as any QB coming out this year, probably a lot better. Easily worth a first round pick. 

The thing that makes him a possible trade option is the fact he plays for a team whose new HC is on record saying he'd take Murray with the first pick if he could (granted he didn't know he'd be in that position now), and the offense KK runs is a better fit for Murray then it is for Rosen. 

So a trade of Rosen wouldn't really be a knock on him, but simply an acknowledgement that like most QBs, he isn't as good a fit for KKs offense as Murray is.

in theory, yes, but in reality, rosen sucked last year and there aren't many teams who are willing to give up 1st rounders for him.  washington, miami - not much of a market.

[14 in Green]

1 minute ago, Skeptable said:

Just wait... Murray is going to be a polarizing player and he is going to be discussed at 1 and I think Rosen still has enough value to get another #1 pick,  If Murray actually falls... I don't see Gruden passing on him.

Yeah, look at what I just posted before I saw this. I definitely can see it happening also. I just think the odds I went with are pretty realistic, since it's a huge gamble for a rookie HC to take.

[14 in Green]

8 minutes ago, Augustiniak said:

in theory, yes, but in reality, rosen sucked last year and there aren't many teams who are willing to give up 1st rounders for him.  washington, miami - not much of a market.

Rosen had nothing around him. He was in a worse position the Darnold and Allen. None of the 3 had great years, but all 3 should improve this year, building on a year spent learning hard lessons while playing on terrible offensive teams

I think teams would line up to trade a 1st for him. Who would you want Rosen, or Lock, Jones, even Haskins? I'm taking Rosen. Personally I'd stick with him over Murray also, but in the scenario we're talking about KK takes Murray.

[Skeptable]

14 minutes ago, Augustiniak said:

in theory, yes, but in reality, rosen sucked last year and there aren't many teams who are willing to give up 1st rounders for him.  washington, miami - not much of a market.

Denver, Giants and Bengals... Panthers maybe

[nycdan]

1 hour ago, The Crusher said:

Wasn’t Robert Gallwey supposed to be a cornerstone left tackle and ended up a mediocre guard because he had T Rex arms? “ If I’m wrong please ignore the call.” 

You ask.  Google answers.

http://blackandgold.com/blogs/hagan714/89-ot-behind-measurements-height-vs-arm-length.html

Quote

“Great” arm length (35-plus inches)
D’Brickashaw Ferguson, Jets: 35½ inches (2006)
Ryan Clady, Broncos: 36 inches (2008)

“Good” arm length (34-34 7/8 inches)
Jammal Brown, Saints: 34¼ inches (2005)
Jeff Otah, Panthers: 34 5/8 inches (2008)

“Average” arm length (33-33 7/8 inches)
Michael Roos, Titans: 33 5/8 inches (2005)
Levi Brown, Cardinals: 33 1/8 inches (2007)

“Below average” arm length (32-32 7/8 inches)
Robert Gallery, Raiders: 32¼ inches (2004)
Chris Williams, Bears: 32¾ inches (2008)

 

[Augustiniak]

14 minutes ago, 14 in Green said:

Rosen had nothing around him. He was in a worse position the Darnold and Allen. None of the 3 had great years, but all 3 should improve this year, building on a year spent learning hard lessons while playing on terrible offensive teams

I think teams would line up to trade a 1st for him. Who would you want Rosen, or Lock, Jones, even Haskins? I'm taking Rosen. Personally I'd stick with him over Murray also, but in the scenario we're talking about KK takes Murray.

most people would also say that darnold had nothing around him either.

[nycdan]

13 minutes ago, 14 in Green said:

Rosen had nothing around him. He was in a worse position the Darnold and Allen. None of the 3 had great years, but all 3 should improve this year, building on a year spent learning hard lessons while playing on terrible offensive teams

I think teams would line up to trade a 1st for him. Who would you want Rosen, or Lock, Jones, even Haskins? I'm taking Rosen. Personally I'd stick with him over Murray also, but in the scenario we're talking about KK takes Murray.

WAS has no realistic shot at Haskins or Murray sitting at #15.  MIA at #13 is similarly out of the running probably.  Now MIA seems content to suck for a shot at the 2020 class but WAS seems like the perfect team to trade for Rosen.  

I wonder if SD would be ready to start thinking about bringing in a candidate to transition to from Rivers.  Rosen could arguably sit for one more season behind a good starter.  NO doesn't have a 1st rounder this year and I don't think NE is ready to bring him in knowing he might have to sit at least 2 more years and possibly be out of his rookie contract before he plays.

[choon328]

1 hour ago, Patriot Killa said:

Good thing Saffold isn’t as good as Jonah at everything else a LT is required to do.

Technique means nothing at LT if a 265 lb DE or OLB gets his hands on you first. That's why wingspan matters at Left Tackle. He's a guard/center. Especially given his size at 6'4" 302lbs.

So he is below average in height for the position, about 20 lbs too light and doesn't have the ideal wingspan. That's not a good combo. And really he's too light for Guard as well. His best position is probably Center bc of his size and great technique. And from what I read the Alabama coaching staff told scouts after 2018 that they planned to have him play Center in 2019. That didn't wind up happening bc their personnel dictated that he had to stay at LT. If they dropped to the middle of the first round I'd have no problems taking him to play G/C. But there is no way you take him at #3, especially since he's not even on par with the type of Guard prospect that Nelson was last year.

[14 in Green]

1 minute ago, Augustiniak said:

most people would also say that darnold had nothing around him either.

Didn't I say that? Neither did Allen because like most rookie QBs, they were drafted early by very bad teams. I was responding to your comment that "Rosen sucked last year". Statistically, they all did, except for Mayfield. He was on a team with some good young talent, but is clearly the only one who excelled from day one.

We saw enough from Darnold to feel good about him (thank god for those 3 late games), but really, all he proved, just like Allen, Rosen and Jackson did, is that he deserves to run out there the next 4 years and show he's good enough for a mega second contract.

 

[Augustiniak]

4 minutes ago, 14 in Green said:

Didn't I say that? Neither did Allen because like most rookie QBs, they were drafted early by very bad teams. I was responding to your comment that "Rosen sucked last year". Statistically, they all did, except for Mayfield. He was on a team with some good young talent, but is clearly the only one who excelled from day one.

We saw enough from Darnold to feel good about him (thank god for those 3 late games), but really, all he proved, just like Allen, Rosen and Jackson did, is that he deserves to run out there the next 4 years and show he's good enough for a mega second contract.

 

i just don't see teams lining up for rosen.  teams that need qbs can go with murray or haskins or tank like miami is planning to do and then draft one in 2020.  plus as soon as the cards start shopping him, teams are going to know the cards want murray and therefore will expect to get rosen at a discount relative to his draft position only a year ago.  no way would i give up a first rounder for rosen if the cards are shopping him.  

[14 in Green]

13 minutes ago, nycdan said:

WAS has no realistic shot at Haskins or Murray sitting at #15.  MIA at #13 is similarly out of the running probably.  Now MIA seems content to suck for a shot at the 2020 class but WAS seems like the perfect team to trade for Rosen.  

I wonder if SD would be ready to start thinking about bringing in a candidate to transition to from Rivers.  Rosen could arguably sit for one more season behind a good starter.  NO doesn't have a 1st rounder this year and I don't think NE is ready to bring him in knowing he might have to sit at least 2 more years and possibly be out of his rookie contract before he plays.

If I'm the Giants or the Jaguars, and I'm really looking for a QB THIS year, I'm on the phone with Arizona asking about Rosen. Who knows what they'll want for him? It certainly wouldn't hurt to try, and you would probably get a better player for less then the price to move up for someone in this years draft.

[14 in Green]

4 minutes ago, Augustiniak said:

i just don't see teams lining up for rosen.  teams that need qbs can go with murray or haskins or tank like miami is planning to do and then draft one in 2020.  plus as soon as the cards start shopping him, teams are going to know the cards want murray and therefore will expect to get rosen at a discount relative to his draft position only a year ago.  no way would i give up a first rounder for rosen if the cards are shopping him.  

Just curious. What would you be willing to give up if you were talking to the GM of the team trading Darnold or Allen?

[Augustiniak]

3 minutes ago, 14 in Green said:

Just curious. What would you be willing to give up if you were talking to the GM of the team trading Darnold or Allen?

i wouldn't trade for allen or rosen.  i'd give up a haul for darnold, he is as was advertised leading up to the draft.  but allen has never been accurate and rosen is limited physically, including a below average arm.  

[Kleckineau]

Are you guys kidding with this arm b/s?

I am not advocating to take this guy at 3 but to call this guy a center because his arms are a 1/2" shorter than some other players is beyond dumb.

Jason Peters 33 1/4

Jake Long 32 7/8

Joe Thomas 32 1/2

[Patriot Killa]

34 minutes ago, nycdan said:

You ask.  Google answers.

http://blackandgold.com/blogs/hagan714/89-ot-behind-measurements-height-vs-arm-length.html

 

Lol so he’s in the “good” category.

[The Crusher]

37 minutes ago, nycdan said:

You ask.  Google answers.

http://blackandgold.com/blogs/hagan714/89-ot-behind-measurements-height-vs-arm-length.html

 

Kinda what I remember. Go Brick baby!!!!!!

[joenamathwouldn'tcry]

One inch in arm length is an issue?  If he were slow, had bad footwork or were undersized I'd be more concerned.  His brain and heart are a lot more important than one inch in "wingspan".  This metrics thing is getting ridiculous.  More of "today's game", nerds need jobs too. The question needs to be can he play, and does he want to be a football player.

[New York Mick]

1 hour ago, JoJoTownsell1 said:

LOL. Speed is meaningless. Strength is meaningless. Size is meaningless. Quickness is meaningless. 

You can either play or you can’t. A guys arms being an inch shorter then what they think is good is meaningless. There’s quite a few players that had a number off at the combine and did good or great in the NFL. 

[Philc1]

5 hours ago, David Harris said:

No, arm length matters A LOT.  This was big for Jonah, not ideal but adequate 

It’s fine I don’t think this takes away from him at all I’d still rather sign Trent Brown and draft one of the big 3 tho

[14 in Green]

14 minutes ago, Augustiniak said:

i wouldn't trade for allen or rosen.  i'd give up a haul for darnold, he is as was advertised leading up to the draft.  but allen has never been accurate and rosen is limited physically, including a below average arm.  

That's what I thought you'd say. Nothing wrong with your answer, its what most Jet fans would probably say. "Sam good. Everyone else, bad." LOL. 

I can't remember this fan base being as supportive of a player since, who? Maybe Chrebet? Even he didn't get the love Sam does though. It shows how much is riding on the Darnold pick working out.

[choon328]

5 minutes ago, 14 in Green said:

Just curious. What would you be willing to give up if you were talking to the GM of the team trading Darnold or Allen?

The biggest problem with Rosen is that he doesn't have the instinctual ability to avoid the rush. He is a statue in the pocket. That is not a learned ability, it is something you naturally do. That was exposed last year and I don't care how good his arm is if he can't make off schedule plays. That will only get worse as he gets older. Eli and Brady had a good ability to do that when they were younger and have since, in Eli's case, lost all of that ability due to age. Rosen looks like 2017/2018 Eli and he's 16 years younger than Eli.  That really hampers an offense. 

Your excuse will be that his offensive line was terrible but so were the Bills and Jets. But Darnold, Allen and Mayfield all showed the ability to sense pressure and move out of the pocket and make plays. Rosen did not and could not do that last year. 

You mentioned above that neither Darnold, Allen or Rosen had great years. That's true. But it was obvious to everyone that Darnold and Allen had much better seasons than Rosen. Their arrows are shooting straight up and Rosens is straight down at this point.

I wouldn't give more than a late 3rd or early 4th for Rosen. That's considering his limitations and the lack of leverage the Cardinals will have.

[Augustiniak]

Just now, choon328 said:

The biggest problem with Rosen is that he doesn't have the instinctual ability to avoid the rush. He is a statue in the pocket. That is not a learned ability, it is something you naturally do. That was exposed last year and I don't care how good his arm is if he can't make off schedule plays. That will only get worse as he gets older. Eli and Brady had a good ability to do that when they were younger and have since, in Eli's case, lost all of that ability due to age. Rosen looks like 2017/2018 Eli and he's 16 years younger than Eli.  That really hampers an offense. 

Your excuse will be that his offensive line was terrible but so were the Bills and Jets. But Darnold, Allen and Mayfield all showed the ability to sense pressure and move out of the pocket and make plays. Rosen did not and could not do that last year. 

You mentioned above that neither Darnold, Allen or Rosen had great years. That's true. But it was obvious to everyone that Darnold and Allen had much better seasons than Rosen. Their arrows are shooting straight up and Rosens is straight down at this point.

I wouldn't give more than a late 3rd or early 4th for Rosen. That's considering his limitations and the lack of leverage the Cardinals will have.

he also doesn't have the arm strength to throw effectively on the run, and if you trade him to a team in worse weather than AZ you're also dealing with that.  

[Patriot Killa]

34 minutes ago, nycdan said:

You ask.  Google answers.

http://blackandgold.com/blogs/hagan714/89-ot-behind-measurements-height-vs-arm-length.html

 

Lol so he’s in the “good” category.

[choon328]

14 minutes ago, joenamathwouldn'tcry said:

One inch in arm length is an issue?  If he were slow, had bad footwork or were undersized I'd be more concerned.  His brain and heart are a lot more important than one inch in "wingspan".  This metrics thing is getting ridiculous.  More of "today's game", nerds need jobs too. The question needs to be can he play, and does he want to be a football player.

He's undersized at 6'4" 302lbs to play LT for sure. Everyone was complaining Brick was too light at 316lbs. There is nothing elite about him. He's not even the consensus top offensive lineman yet people want to use the 3rd overall pick on him. I don't get it.

[14 in Green]

10 minutes ago, choon328 said:

The biggest problem with Rosen is that he doesn't have the instinctual ability to avoid the rush. He is a statue in the pocket. That is not a learned ability, it is something you naturally do. That was exposed last year and I don't care how good his arm is if he can't make off schedule plays. That will only get worse as he gets older. Eli and Brady had a good ability to do that when they were younger and have since, in Eli's case, lost all of that ability due to age. Rosen looks like 2017/2018 Eli and he's 16 years younger than Eli.  That really hampers an offense. 

Your excuse will be that his offensive line was terrible but so were the Bills and Jets. But Darnold, Allen and Mayfield all showed the ability to sense pressure and move out of the pocket and make plays. Rosen did not and could not do that last year. 

You mentioned above that neither Darnold, Allen or Rosen had great years. That's true. But it was obvious to everyone that Darnold and Allen had much better seasons than Rosen. Their arrows are shooting straight up and Rosens is straight down at this point.

I wouldn't give more than a late 3rd or early 4th for Rosen. That's considering his limitations and the lack of leverage the Cardinals will have.

Wouldn't you consider Haskins the same style QB as Rosen? He's just as much a "statue" type.

I'm no huge fan of Rosen, but I think there are plenty of people in the NFL who are.

As far as the comparisons to Allen and Darnold, I agree they looked better last year, which was surprising because pre draft most people thought Rosen was the one most ready to start Day one.

I know its not popular to take the Rosen side in many QB comparisons right now, but I'm just not ready to say he's a bust. In fact if he does stay in Arizona and turn out to be a fit with what KK wants to do, I can see him having a better year then both Darnold or Allen in 2019.

 

[Fantasy Island]

We have Mac, therefore we are drafting defense in the first round.  Another crappy draft , nothing else to see here. ☹️

[Philc1]

1 minute ago, 14 in Green said:

Wouldn't you consider Haskins the same style QB as Rosen? He's just as much a "statue" type.

I'm no huge fan of Rosen, but I think there are plenty of people in the NFL who are.

As far as the comparisons to Allen and Darnold, I agree they looked better last year, which was surprising because pre draft most people thought Rosen was the one most ready to start Day one.

I know its not popular to take the Rosen side in many QB comparisons right now, but I'm just not ready to say he's a bust. In fact if he does stay in Arizona and turn out to be a fit with what KK wants to do, I can see him having a better year then either Darnold or Allen in 2019.

 

Haskins is more mobile than Rosen

[genot]

1 minute ago, Philc1 said:

Haskins is more mobile than Rosen

Your more mobile than Rosen!!!!!!!!!!

[Philc1]

Just now, genot said:

Your more mobile than Rosen!!!!!!!!!!

Exactly

[Patriot Killa]

22 minutes ago, Philc1 said:

It’s fine I don’t think this takes away from him at all I’d still rather sign Trent Brown and draft one of the big 3 tho

Trent Brown is a RT.

[JetFreak89]

Just want to throw this out there as we over analyze all of the kids this weekend and scrutinize numbers over performance. Remember this guy last year? 

Year after historically bad NFL Combine, Orlando Brown offers advice for evaluators

Ravens lineman Orlando Brown had one of the worst NFL Combine performances ever last year. But after a solid rookie season, he has a message for NFL evaluators.

Orlando Brown(Getty Images)

Jordan Heck @jordanheckff

Published on Feb. 26, 2019

 

Orlando Brown had a "historically bad" NFL Combine performance in 2018, but he wants others to know that, at this point, it doesn't mean much.

The Ravens offensive lineman sent out a string of tweets Monday night hours before the start of the 2019 NFL Combine. His message: NFL evaluators should not put too much stock into what they see at the scouting event in Indianapolis. The drills don't tell the full story on a prospect.

"The OL position isn't easy to evaluate," Brown tweeted. "It’s easy to turn to numbers because typically your best blockers are your best athletes. In my opinion it’s simple, OL is like a form of art. We all have different tools and abilities. While my game is played by manipulating angles and understanding where the QB will be in his drop, some get to a spot and react from there. The reason that the numbers in the drills are so 'valuable' is because they believe you have to be an 'athlete' to react to counter moves and capture LBs at the second level.

"In my short time of playing the position I can tell you that understanding your body and angles is more important than your foot quickness. When drafting a OL you’d think because he bends and moves a certain way he’d be successful, but without the understanding of your abilities you will get lost in the shuffle. I’m not the best bender but I’ve got long arms. I understand that if a defender goes to dip I use my length to help me recover. A lot of OL rely on their athleticism instead of developing a set of fundamentals you are confident in. The DL in football are only getting smarter, they recognize those that try to use athleticism to their advantage.

"With it being combine week, many evaluators will write off several OL because of his 'lack of athleticism.' I’m here to tell you to pay attention to his film, figure out how he manipulates his blocks based off his tools, and don’t count him out cause he isn’t a super athlete."

Orlando Brown (Zeus)

 

✔@ZEUS__78

 

Replying to @ZEUS__78

 

P.S. Draft more Pricks at the position, it’s good for society to have them on a field and not at home.

 

808

11:09 PM - Feb 25, 2019

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For reference, here's how Brown performed at the Combine last year: 

• 19.5" vertical jump (worst of any player ever drafted)
• 82" broad jump (worst of any player ever drafted)
• 5.85 40-yard dash (second-worst ever)
• 14 bench reps (tied for fourth worst among OL)

The former Oklahoma lineman left school a year early and was considered a first-round prospect before the Combine. He eventually dropped to the third round, where the Ravens selected him, and he ended up proving doubters wrong in his first season.

According to PFF, Brown allowed zero sacks and one quarterback hit in 760 snaps (16 games, 10 starts). He tied for 10th in pass-blocking efficiency among all offensive linemen and tied for 17th in pressure percentage allowed, per PFF.

Brown is not the first player to put up bad Combine numbers and turn out to be a good player, but his message on Twitter is worth hearing. Even if it doesn't reach the evaluators who actually make the decisions in the NFL, it's important for future prospects not to get down on themselves after bad performances.

 

[choon328]

5 minutes ago, 14 in Green said:

Wouldn't you consider Haskins the same style QB as Rosen? He's just as much a "statue" type.

I'm no huge fan of Rosen, but I think there are plenty of people in the NFL who are.

As far as the comparisons to Allen and Darnold, I agree they looked better last year, which was surprising because pre draft most people thought Rosen was the one most ready to start Day one.

I know its not popular to take the Rosen side in many QB comparisons right now, but I'm just not ready to say he's a bust. In fact if he does stay in Arizona and turn out to be a fit with what KK wants to do, I can see him having a better year then both Darnold or Allen in 2019.

 

Full disclosure, I wanted Rosen. So it's not like I have an agenda. I do think Haskins is similar to Rosen. I don't think any of the QB's in this draft are franchise guys. The only one who may develop into that is Murray. My concern for him would be reading defenses on the pro level. Everyone wants to compare him to Wilson bc of the similar size but that's where the comparison ends. Wilson was much much more pro ready than Murray.  Wilson was a 5th year senior and played in a pro style offense his entire career. 

What concerns me about Murray's size is not his height, it's his weight. He put on 17 lbs to get up to 207 for the combine. He will drop those lbs in a months and be back to 190. He is going to get hurt a lot in the NFL bc his style dictates that he'll have to run bc of his lack of experience as a passer and reading defenses just like Lamar Jackson and Josh Allen. I would personally stay away from all of the QB's in the first round.

[Patriot Killa]

Lol FTR, I wanted Orlando Brown last year too and Maccagnan said F you PK.