When does Darron Lee get released or traded?

[Bleedin Green]

3 hours ago, GREENBEAN said:

It's incredibly clear to anyone who is looking at it clearly. Lee fits what Bowles wants to run so well, I'm surprised they didn't trade up to get him. lol 

I'm not letting Macc off of the hook entirely, but to me it has always seemed like Macc trying to get Bowles the players he "needed" to run his exotic schemes. He is a defensive mastermind after all. 

This fan-fiction theory went right down the toilet when every single report that came out as the season came closer to an end cited the constant disagreement that existed between the front office and coaching staff for how the roster was built.  Maccagnan is incompetent at his job in every single way, and even if this conspiracy theory were true, it makes him even more useless if he's that reliant on others to do his job for him.

[TokyoJetsFan]

4 potential trade destinations for Jets LB Darron Lee

Almost four years after the Jets drafted him 20th overall, linebacker Darron Lee might on his way out of New York.

The Jets gave C.J. Mosley a huge $85 million contract to start alongside Avery Williamson in the middle of the defense, effectively making Lee expendable at the linebacker position. Gregg Williams could find use for Lee, but it would most likely be on the bench and in sub packages.

Another option is to trade Lee.

In three seasons with the Jets, Lee failed to live up to his first-round expectations. He tallied 238 combined tackles, but only four sacks and 17 tackles for a loss. Lee offers some intrigue, though. He’s only 24 and his speed and coverage abilities could make him valuable if used properly.

WIth that in mind, here are four potential trade suitors for the Jets defender.

Denver Broncos

The Broncos are in desperate need of an inside linebacker after letting Brandon Marshall walk this offseason. Denver doesn’t have much depth at linebacker behind edge rushers Von Miller and Bradley Chubb. Todd Davis, the Broncos other inside linebacker, is a similar build to Lee.

New Denver head coach Vic Fangio knows how to utilize players built like Lee. When he was the defensive coordinator in Chicago in 2018, Fangio turned first-round pick Roquan Smith into a 112-tackle linebacker. Smith and Lee are almost identical in size and ran similar 40-yard dash times at their respective combines.

Without much linebacker depth, it wouldn’t be surprising for Fangio and the Broncos to take a flier on the Jets’ former first-round pick.

 

 

Oakland Raiders

The Raiders are in the midst of a massive rebuild on defense after trading away Khalil Mack and really need an inside linebacker. Oakland has one of the worst linebacker corps in the league, and current starters Jason Cabinda and Marquel Lee have a combined for 19 starts and 111 tackles in three total seasons in the league.

Jon Gruden has plenty of draft capital and could easily part with a mid- or late-round pick to secure the young Lee, who would immediately upgrade his defense.

 

Darron Lee could try his luck in a 4-3 defensive scheme in Detroit. (Tim Fuller-USA TODAY Sports)

Detroit Lions

Another team in need of a defensive overhaul, the Lions are an intriguing option since they play in a 4-3 base scheme. Detroit could use an upgrade over Christian Jones on the outside and Lee could fit right in as a speedy linebacker.

Lee hasn’t played in the 4-3 since his time at Ohio State, but a position change could be just what Lee needs after three marginally unproductive seasons in New York.

 

The Bengals need a replacement for Vontaze Burfict, and Lee would be the perfect fit. (David Kohl-USA TODAY Sports)

 

Cincinnati Bengals

The Bengals need someone to fill the void left by the released Vontaze Burfict, and Lee would be a great replacement in the middle of their defense. The two are extremely similar in size, though Burfict packs much more of a punch than Lee. 

Cincinnati also plays in the 4-3, but even if it switched schemes, Lee would fit in and contribute, either as a starter or a role player. At the very least, he would battle Jordan Evans for the starting role.

With a new coaching regime, the Bengals could use an infusion of different talent and Lee would give them a young, versatile and speedy option in the middle. 

https://www.google.com/amp/s/jetswire.usatoday.com/2019/03/19/potential-trade-destinations-jets-darron-lee/amp/

[NYJ1]

7 hours ago, JoeWillieWhiteShoesHOF said:

Totally agree.

The worst part is Bowles was sold as someone so expert with D backs, and they were the most clueless unit, out of many, on the field for the entire 4 years.  He might not have had Patrick Peterson and Honey Badger, can’t remember the other corner right now but he he was also real good, like he did in AZ (a team so stacked on D that it was even impossible for Bowles to mess it up), but the Jet d backs were always out of position, clueless in how to communicate with each other...was just a total disgrace.  And virtually no one said a thing about it hahaha (except the fans of course).

You just knew Maccagnan was getting his arm twisted to bring in Bowles “type” of player, if you just cared to look, which like you said isn’t excusable, but I just think things will be way better now.

Jets would have lost 10 games this year if they brought in Antonio Brown to go along with Bell, and Darnold averaging 35 points a game with Tampa’s new DC still as coach.

Well, the very telling sign is if someday Lee gets cut and Bowles shows no interest? Then you know he's not only disappointed the Jets but also Bowles.

[Scoop24]

2 minutes ago, NYJ1 said:

Well, the very telling sign is if someday Lee gets cut and Bowles shows no interest? Then you know he's not only disappointed the Jets but also Bowles.

Bowles got original Back in Tampa with Buchanan 

[NYJ1]

46 minutes ago, Scoop24 said:

Bowles got original Back in Tampa with Buchanan 

So what happens if Lee becomes available to him? He might be available right now?

[GREENBEAN]

9 hours ago, Bleedin Green said:

This fan-fiction theory went right down the toilet when every single report that came out as the season came closer to an end cited the constant disagreement that existed between the front office and coaching staff for how the roster was built.  Maccagnan is incompetent at his job in every single way, and even if this conspiracy theory were true, it makes him even more useless if he's that reliant on others to do his job for him.

Riiiiiight.    Lee was a Macc pick.  I see. Bowles was unhappy about the pick. Got it.    

 Once again, I'm not saying anything about Macc being a brilliant mastermind who was hamstrung by Bowles. I'm saying there is much more to the story than Macc sucks.  It's not either or man. It's not black and white. My point was that Macc was trying, and poorly, to build a team for his hot garbage of a coach. That is the truth.  To which degree either side of the discussion it leans is up for debate. 

You bring up the contention between the coaching staff and the front office. Did you even consider that the rift was not all once sided with coach being upset the GM didn't get players for him? That the roster was built poorly to try and get players for the numerous OC's we had ( ex:Adarius Stewart for Morton) and weird hybrid guys for Bowles like Darron Lee?  I also struggle to think it was solely Macc, to the dismay of the pleading defensive backfield minded HC, to pick safeties in the first two rounds.   

We will see as this moves forward whether or not Macc still picks odd players when there are more obvious choices to be made. I'm fairly confident that we will see a dramatic turn beginning with this next draft.  

[Jet Nut]

21 hours ago, JoeWillieWhiteShoesHOF said:

I just know Bowles had lots to do with the Lee pick, trying to duplicate AZs D but without all the All Pros on it.  

Pretty sure about the 2nd consecutive Safety chosen in the 2nd Rd also, with Kamara, Smith-Shuster, and many more still on the board.  Not saying I don’t like Maye, but he was old when he was drafted and he’s hurt much of the time unfortunately.

Lee went where just about everyone picked him to go in the draft.

And you make it sound like there were clear cut better choices that we missed by taking him.   

He is what he is and we had little choice.  

[Bleedin Green]

16 minutes ago, GREENBEAN said:

Riiiiiight.    Lee was a Macc pick.  I see. Bowles was unhappy about the pick. Got it.    

 Once again, I'm not saying anything about Macc being a brilliant mastermind who was hamstrung by Bowles. I'm saying there is much more to the story than Macc sucks.  It's not either or man. It's not black and white. My point was that Macc was trying, and poorly, to build a team for his hot garbage of a coach. That is the truth.  To which degree either side of the discussion it leans is up for debate. 

You bring up the contention between the coaching staff and the front office. Did you even consider that the rift was not all once sided with coach being upset the GM didn't get players for him? That the roster was built poorly to try and get players for the numerous OC's we had ( ex:Adarius Stewart for Morton) and weird hybrid guys for Bowles like Darron Lee?  I also struggle to think it was solely Macc, to the dismay of the pleading defensive backfield minded HC, to pick safeties in the first two rounds.   

We will see as this moves forward whether or not Macc still picks odd players when there are more obvious choices to be made. I'm fairly confident that we will see a dramatic turn beginning with this next draft.  

If the excuse is that Bowles was doing half of Maccagnan's job for him, then it makes Mac an even more useless incompetent than advertised, so it by absolutely no means qualifies as the slightest bit of an excuse for him.  Quite literally the only options left are that Mac has either been an outright failure in his attempts to do his job, or has shown himself completely incapable of even attempting to perform the tasks himself that he is paid to do.

[GREENBEAN]

1 minute ago, Bleedin Green said:

If the excuse is that Bowles was doing half of Maccagnan's job for him, then it makes Mac an even more useless incompetent than advertised, so it by absolutely no means qualifies as the slightest bit of an excuse for him.  Quite literally the only options left are that Mac has either been an outright failure in his attempts to do his job, or has shown himself completely incapable of even attempting to perform the tasks himself that he is paid to do.

That's not what I said and saying it over and over won't help to make it so.  

What I am saying is that Bowles and Macc reported directly to the owner. Many of the players selected are obviously to get bowles the specific types of players he coveted.  The original subject was Lee so I will use him as an example again. Not that Bowles was the GM.  A good GM can understand what players will help make the coach succeed in addition to trying to accumulate the best players available.  The problem is that Bowles is a terrible HC, Rogers is a terrible DC and we had 3 OC's in 4 years.  That makes the job pretty difficult. 

I just spent a half our writing a diatribe to @JetFaninMI on a similar topic and will say it briefly here. I do not LOVE Macc. God knows he has done a worse job than we would have liked. So many poor decisions!  I simply look at the whole. Can I be wrong? No.   lol

Of course I can, But I don't see it as black and white as many others do.  I like the offseason so far and look forward to the successful draft we are about to have. Will it be Gase and Williams who make that all happen or will it be Macc and Macc alone?  Hmmmmm I would venture to say it will be the collective. Macc making the choices based on what will put his coaches in the best position to succeed.  Let's watch. 

Are you ok with the offseason so far or are you unhappy about the additions?  

[NYJ1]

1 hour ago, Jet Nut said:

Lee went where just about everyone picked him to go in the draft.

And you make it sound like there were clear cut better choices that we missed by taking him.   

He is what he is and we had little choice.  

There was. Mac had a trade available to move up to 12? I think and get Laremy  Tunsil. To this day I have no idea how he could be so stupid as to turn up that trade. I have a few theories:

1) Bowles AND Mac wanted Darron Lee. Bowls wanted him because he thought he was getting Deon Buchanan and Mac wanted Lee because

2) it would allow him to keep his 2nd rounder and take CHRIS HACKENBERG.

It's specifically in my estimation the 2016 draft that exposed Mac and Bowles for the dumb a$$es they truly are.

[Bleedin Green]

25 minutes ago, GREENBEAN said:

That's not what I said and saying it over and over won't help to make it so.  

What I am saying is that Bowles and Macc reported directly to the owner. Many of the players selected are obviously to get bowles the specific types of players he coveted.  The original subject was Lee so I will use him as an example again. Not that Bowles was the GM.  A good GM can understand what players will help make the coach succeed in addition to trying to accumulate the best players available.  The problem is that Bowles is a terrible HC, Rogers is a terrible DC and we had 3 OC's in 4 years.  That makes the job pretty difficult. 

I just spent a half our writing a diatribe to @JetFaninMI on a similar topic and will say it briefly here. I do not LOVE Macc. God knows he has done a worse job than we would have liked. So many poor decisions!  I simply look at the whole. Can I be wrong? No.   lol

Of course I can, But I don't see it as black and white as many others do.  I like the offseason so far and look forward to the successful draft we are about to have. Will it be Gase and Williams who make that all happen or will it be Macc and Macc alone?  Hmmmmm I would venture to say it will be the collective. Macc making the choices based on what will put his coaches in the best position to succeed.  Let's watch. 

Are you ok with the offseason so far or are you unhappy about the additions?  

I have no love for Bowles, but the HC and GM being terrible at their respective jobs is in no way mutually exclusive, despite the common fan trend of desperately trying to find the "one guy" responsible for it all.  However, that simply tends to be nothing more than an unwillingness to accept the dark truth.  Maccagnan has been horrifically awful at this job.  There is no evidence to the contrary that exists.  The most recent argument otherwise dependent on pretending he didn't do his job horribly, but rather someone else did it horribly for him.

Even in terms of the supposed negative impact on the coaching of Maccagnan's acquisitions, that theory is even quickly disproven by the fact that, to this day, there has yet to be one single player brought in by Maccagnan, whether via the draft, FA, or trade, that has gone on to see even slightly greater success in the league following their time with the Jets.  Bottom line, no one has been able to get anything more out of Mac's failed players than Bowles did, which is a pretty serious indictment.

In regards to this offseason so far, I'm honestly indifferent about it.  Attempting to buy your way to success has never worked in the NFL, and that isn't going to suddenly change now.  In all likelihood, league history tell us there's at least a few of these guys who will never live up to their contracts (for example, Mosley being one of the league's highest paid non-QBs is a pretty good bet for that).  Some of them probably won't make it through their deals.  It's certainly possible these guys can end up being short-term complements to this team, but the team's future success is still fully reliant on draft success, which needs to be even more significant than normal in order for the Jets to have success, given the years worth of draft failures that have preceded this, and I have absolutely no faith in the slightest that Maccagnan is capable of doing that.

[JoeWillieWhiteShoesHOF]

5 hours ago, Jet Nut said:

Lee went where just about everyone picked him to go in the draft.

And you make it sound like there were clear cut better choices that we missed by taking him.   

He is what he is and we had little choice.  

Wouldn’t you have preferred taking an Olineman in retrospect?  I would have, because you know, at that point, hey, maybe someday there will be a Franchise QB to protect?

Then again it’s difficult to find tiny LBs who play inside and who get instantly vaporized when a lineman lays a hand on them.  Sure, there was “no one else” but Lee to draft there.

That pick was ALL Bowles.

[Jet Nut]

5 minutes ago, JoeWillieWhiteShoesHOF said:

Wouldn’t you have preferred taking an Olineman in retrospect?  I would have, because you know, at that point, hey, maybe someday there will be a Franchise QB to protect?

Then again it’s difficult to find tiny LBs who play inside and who get instantly vaporized when a lineman lays a hand on them.  Sure, there was “no one else” but Lee to draft there.

That pick was ALL Bowles.

It's not magic.  Can't just make it so an OL was available.  

The whole stupid tiny LB started off to be funny and now is annoying.  First off he's not nearly as bad as most claim he is.  Second no matter what he is it isn't because of his size.  Can't figure out what dumber the idea he's too small or you don't draft ILBs on the first.

And one more time, other than a guess because Bowles is from the D he picked Lee or maybe you're still hanging onto the idea that he had a smaller LB in AZ so forget that Lee went where he was predicted.  

[Losmeister]

D Lee. 5 pages?   Insanity.

[NYs Stepchild]

2 minutes ago, Losmeister said:

D Lee. 5 pages?   Insanity.

Everyone has that one person that never called you back.

This is what happens when you drink. 

[GREENBEAN]

10 hours ago, Bleedin Green said:

I have no love for Bowles, but the HC and GM being terrible at their respective jobs is in no way mutually exclusive, despite the common fan trend of desperately trying to find the "one guy" responsible for it all.  However, that simply tends to be nothing more than an unwillingness to accept the dark truth.  Maccagnan has been horrifically awful at this job.  There is no evidence to the contrary that exists.  The most recent argument otherwise dependent on pretending he didn't do his job horribly, but rather someone else did it horribly for him.

Even in terms of the supposed negative impact on the coaching of Maccagnan's acquisitions, that theory is even quickly disproven by the fact that, to this day, there has yet to be one single player brought in by Maccagnan, whether via the draft, FA, or trade, that has gone on to see even slightly greater success in the league following their time with the Jets.  Bottom line, no one has been able to get anything more out of Mac's failed players than Bowles did, which is a pretty serious indictment.

In regards to this offseason so far, I'm honestly indifferent about it.  Attempting to buy your way to success has never worked in the NFL, and that isn't going to suddenly change now.  In all likelihood, league history tell us there's at least a few of these guys who will never live up to their contracts (for example, Mosley being one of the league's highest paid non-QBs is a pretty good bet for that).  Some of them probably won't make it through their deals.  It's certainly possible these guys can end up being short-term complements to this team, but the team's future success is still fully reliant on draft success, which needs to be even more significant than normal in order for the Jets to have success, given the years worth of draft failures that have preceded this, and I have absolutely no faith in the slightest that Maccagnan is capable of doing that.

I want you to know that I don't disagree with anything you said here, other than to say that I do agree with the decision not to blown it all up, but still get rid of Bowles and his crew. I also want to make sure I add, that if macc was let go, I would have disagreed, but in truth I would have understood. The basic difference is I add the positives to the mix where I think many others fail to see them through the smoke of the failures. Or they don't see the moves as positives. Either way. 

I will also support the idea that the players who have left, Hanson, Stewart and the like not being able to succeed elsewhere is by far the strongest indictment of Macc's player selection.  But we usually elect not to include the good stuff. Such as the attention to the trajectory. Can anyone debate the idea that the player selection in the draft has been improving? It is getting more difficult to throw the players in the toilet as we move forward. (small consolation for the rough earlier years)  Last years draft has some potential gems in Darnold, Herndon, Cannon, Nickerson and Shepherd (who I love).  I would have chosen more OL, but that is what it is.  I also think Macchiatos does well with trades and UDFA signings. 

My time is fragmented today so I'm losing most of my clarity of thought and my vigor to continue the defense of my stance.I keep having to come back and try to re engage my train of thought. It's unfortunate because I liked your post. When opinions are well thought out, I enjoy discussing them. Much more than just the slippery slope arguing can be. I'll come back later to write more in response to your points. I appreciate your post and your stance. I'll get back later. 

[Losmeister]

3 hours ago, NYs Stepchild said:

Everyone has that one person that never called you back.

This is what happens when you drink. 

to go on and on about a cipher of a player

[Philc1]

6 hours ago, Losmeister said:

D Lee. 5 pages?   Insanity.

He hurts the jets defense that badly

[Losmeister]

Just now, Philc1 said:

He hurts the jets defense that badly

 

[GREENBEAN]

On 3/19/2019 at 10:22 PM, Bleedin Green said:

I have no love for Bowles, but the HC and GM being terrible at their respective jobs is in no way mutually exclusive, despite the common fan trend of desperately trying to find the "one guy" responsible for it all.  However, that simply tends to be nothing more than an unwillingness to accept the dark truth.  Maccagnan has been horrifically awful at this job.  There is no evidence to the contrary that exists.  The most recent argument otherwise dependent on pretending he didn't do his job horribly, but rather someone else did it horribly for him.

Even in terms of the supposed negative impact on the coaching of Maccagnan's acquisitions, that theory is even quickly disproven by the fact that, to this day, there has yet to be one single player brought in by Maccagnan, whether via the draft, FA, or trade, that has gone on to see even slightly greater success in the league following their time with the Jets.  Bottom line, no one has been able to get anything more out of Mac's failed players than Bowles did, which is a pretty serious indictment.

In regards to this offseason so far, I'm honestly indifferent about it.  Attempting to buy your way to success has never worked in the NFL, and that isn't going to suddenly change now.  In all likelihood, league history tell us there's at least a few of these guys who will never live up to their contracts (for example, Mosley being one of the league's highest paid non-QBs is a pretty good bet for that).  Some of them probably won't make it through their deals.  It's certainly possible these guys can end up being short-term complements to this team, but the team's future success is still fully reliant on draft success, which needs to be even more significant than normal in order for the Jets to have success, given the years worth of draft failures that have preceded this, and I have absolutely no faith in the slightest that Maccagnan is capable of doing that.

Hey buddy.  Sorry for the delay.  I've been poking and in and out but the second half of my week was pretty consuming. I'm sure you've been just torn apart waiting for me to get back so I'm really really sorry.  

Let me begin by saying that I've always like your point of view. I've been hangin around this joint for over 10 years and I consider you someone who's posts are worth reading. There are others that I scroll right past when I see a paragraph or two post. Due to that respect I am returning just to give you a potentially separate, albeit unstable point of view. Your feeling a similar sentiment toward my words is not required. lol

 I believe our biggest problem is consistency. Time and time again we burn it down and start over. I don't disagree with having to do that in many cases, but it's the overall mentality of impatience that is our greatest obstacle as a franchise. This is the main reason I didn't want to move on from a guy whose had trouble and whose face even annoys me. Believe me when I say I don't love Macc. I'm not a blind supporter and I see the exact same problems as you do. 

 We continue to hire first time GM's and HC's. Then we watch them make rookie mistakes and get owned by the more seasoned guys in the NFL. We endure their rookie time period and then let them go only to hire another rookie and do it all over again. It's not working and will almost never work. If we let Macc go with Bowles, we would have had 2 consecutive GM's who were not allowed to hire their own HC. That's an insane stat and indicative of a larger problem with this franchise.  Our desire to cut and run without allowing for someone to overcome this initial period is the main reason we are in the boat we have been sitting in for far too long. Hire a first timer, deal with first timer issues. 

 Sure we watched as our GM looked foolish and made dumb mistakes. Mo Wilkerson's contract, Hack in the second, Two consecutive safeties, having to cut draft picks two years after taking them etc etc. But we also watched and cheered when he brought in Revis, Gilchrist, Skrine, Carpenter, Cromartie and traded for Brandon Marshall and Fitz in his first year. We didn't make the playoffs for no fault of Maccagnan. We then watched as the disorder in the locker room destroyed what was touted as the strength of our team. Our D line. 

Having to deal with that issue, Macc got a 2nd rdr and Kearse for Sheldon, who people thought we were going to have to cut outright. Then parlayed that 2nd he received into Darnold.  A 7th for Henry Anderson. Loser Pryor for Davis. Getting a 3rd for Bridgewater. A 5th for KO and a 6th. No obvious first rd busts such as Wilson, Coples, Milliner, Ghoslton, Pryor etc. 

If we pay attention and remove our emotionally based thought process there is a list of positives to consider. I agree, not enough of them, but they are there. What Macc has shown is that he at least a football mind who has a sound, albeit potentially flawed philosophy. But it's football based. Not the two bean counters who preceded him. Trader Mike was fun, but we were repeatedly in cap hell without draft picks and he ultimately destroyed the team with Rex.  Idzik was just the worst. Bradway...,ugh.  

 Bowles was a joke of a HC and a major major factor in all of the suck. He had major input to the owner and on the player selection. That is very clear to me. I'm not implying Macc should be let off the hook for the players selected . Only to consider trying to build a team for a HC who sucks is extremely difficult. Especially when they have a direct line to the owner. There is just more to the story.   We all like to pretend we know stuff about the Jets, but we do not know all that much about the inner workings. We don't know to what degree Macc was hamstrung (or not) by trying to get Bowles the types of guys he wanted/needed.  CJ does. When you look at the defensive tilt to our drafts as well as players like Lee, it would seem to me that Bowles had a lot more input than the anti Macc side would like to swallow. Not that Macc doesn't share fault. Only that there's more to the story. There is a reason CJ decided to keep Macc and we don't know all of the inner details.  Mostly because Macc has locked down the consistent leaks that the Jets were known for. Another indicator of a professional outfit and a positive. 

So now I get to my point, and I'll thank you for getting this far if you're actually still here.  It couldn't have been easy.lol  I see enough, even removing the Bowles aspect of it all, to show that Macc still has the ability to be a successful GM in the NFL. From trades to UDFA gems to well written contracts to the improvement of the drafting. From my point of view, it would be worth it to give it a couple more years with a real coaching regime and after learning all of the things he has over the past 4 years. I do not think it healthy to burn it all down when there are as many positives as there are and an upward trajectory. I see the potential for us all to be grateful that we actually stuck with someone for once and aren't watching yet another rookie GM make the same dumb mistakes. I understand the potential for it to go the opposite way of course, but like I said, I see the other side. That's all really. 

To be clear, I am not a supporter of Macc per say. Only with the idea of staying the course when the course shows potential for success. The old way of getting mad, lighting the torches and burning it down hasn't worked. 

 

 

[Bleedin Green]

31 minutes ago, GREENBEAN said:

Hey buddy.  Sorry for the delay.  I've been poking and in and out but the second half of my week was pretty consuming. I'm sure you've been just torn apart waiting for me to get back so I'm really really sorry.  

Let me begin by saying that I've always like your point of view. I've been hangin around this joint for over 10 years and I consider you someone who's posts are worth reading. There are others that I scroll right past when I see a paragraph or two post. Due to that respect I am returning just to give you a potentially separate, albeit unstable point of view. Your feeling a similar sentiment toward my words is not required. lol

 I believe our biggest problem is consistency. Time and time again we burn it down and start over. I don't disagree with having to do that in many cases, but it's the overall mentality of impatience that is our greatest obstacle as a franchise. This is the main reason I didn't want to move on from a guy whose had trouble and whose face even annoys me. Believe me when I say I don't love Macc. I'm not a blind supporter and I see the exact same problems as you do. 

 We continue to hire first time GM's and HC's. Then we watch them make rookie mistakes and get owned by the more seasoned guys in the NFL. We endure their rookie time period and then let them go only to hire another rookie and do it all over again. It's not working and will almost never work. If we let Macc go with Bowles, we would have had 2 consecutive GM's who were not allowed to hire their own HC. That's an insane stat and indicative of a larger problem with this franchise.  Our desire to cut and run without allowing for someone to overcome this initial period is the main reason we are in the boat we have been sitting in for far too long. Hire a first timer, deal with first timer issues. 

 Sure we watched as our GM looked foolish and made dumb mistakes. Mo Wilkerson's contract, Hack in the second, Two consecutive safeties, having to cut draft picks two years after taking them etc etc. But we also watched and cheered when he brought in Revis, Gilchrist, Skrine, Carpenter, Cromartie and traded for Brandon Marshall and Fitz in his first year. We didn't make the playoffs for no fault of Maccagnan. We then watched as the disorder in the locker room destroyed what was touted as the strength of our team. Our D line. 

Having to deal with that issue, Macc got a 2nd rdr and Kearse for Sheldon, who people thought we were going to have to cut outright. Then parlayed that 2nd he received into Darnold.  A 7th for Henry Anderson. Loser Pryor for Davis. Getting a 3rd for Bridgewater. A 5th for KO and a 6th. No obvious first rd busts such as Wilson, Coples, Milliner, Ghoslton, Pryor etc. 

If we pay attention and remove our emotionally based thought process there is a list of positives to consider. I agree, not enough of them, but they are there. What Macc has shown is that he at least a football mind who has a sound, albeit potentially flawed philosophy. But it's football based. Not the two bean counters who preceded him. Trader Mike was fun, but we were repeatedly in cap hell without draft picks and he ultimately destroyed the team with Rex.  Idzik was just the worst. Bradway...,ugh.  

 Bowles was a joke of a HC and a major major factor in all of the suck. He had major input to the owner and on the player selection. That is very clear to me. I'm not implying Macc should be let off the hook for the players selected . Only to consider trying to build a team for a HC who sucks is extremely difficult. Especially when they have a direct line to the owner. There is just more to the story.   We all like to pretend we know stuff about the Jets, but we do not know all that much about the inner workings. We don't know to what degree Macc was hamstrung (or not) by trying to get Bowles the types of guys he wanted/needed.  CJ does. When you look at the defensive tilt to our drafts as well as players like Lee, it would seem to me that Bowles had a lot more input than the anti Macc side would like to swallow. Not that Macc doesn't share fault. Only that there's more to the story. There is a reason CJ decided to keep Macc and we don't know all of the inner details.  Mostly because Macc has locked down the consistent leaks that the Jets were known for. Another indicator of a professional outfit and a positive. 

So now I get to my point, and I'll thank you for getting this far if you're actually still here.  It couldn't have been easy.lol  I see enough, even removing the Bowles aspect of it all, to show that Macc still has the ability to be a successful GM in the NFL. From trades to UDFA gems to well written contracts to the improvement of the drafting. From my point of view, it would be worth it to give it a couple more years with a real coaching regime and after learning all of the things he has over the past 4 years. I do not think it healthy to burn it all down when there are as many positives as there are and an upward trajectory. I see the potential for us all to be grateful that we actually stuck with someone for once and aren't watching yet another rookie GM make the same dumb mistakes. I understand the potential for it to go the opposite way of course, but like I said, I see the other side. That's all really. 

To be clear, I am not a supporter of Macc per say. Only with the idea of staying the course when the course shows potential for success. The old way of getting mad, lighting the torches and burning it down hasn't worked.

I think you should know full well I'm the last person that should be apologized to for wordy posts, haha.  If you actually take the time to actually read my lengthy rants, the very least I can do is return the favor!

I do get your point, and really don't disagree with the majority of it.  It's definitely been a problematic trend for years, at both GM and HC, having the constant turnover of first-timers at the job.  With that said, the flip side to that is there's yet to be a single one of those the Jets have fired that have gone on to see greater success with more experience, as the likes of Herm, Mangini, Rex, and Tannenbaum all got more chances at their jobs with other teams, and none have given reason to believe that a longer commitment from the Jets would have been the solution.  Meanwhile, the likes of Bradway, Idzik, and Bowles weren't even thought worthy of a second chance by other teams.  My point simply being, just giving more time isn't necessarily a solution.  It seems the bigger problem is Jets' ownership doing a terrible job at their hiring of these positions.

Now I know of course Maccagnan isn't getting fired today, and as much as I may despise him having the job right now, nothing would make me happier for him to prove me completely wrong about everything I've said and thought about his competence.  However, 5 years in, my position is that he is deserving of absolutely no benefit of the doubt in anything he says or does, until he's earned it back ten fold, because he's certainly done more than enough to lose that privilege.  There may have been some good, but it's far outweighed by the bad to this point.

This FA period doesn't do much to excite me and change my mind, but honestly that's not even specific to Macc, but more the fact that the NFL has shown throughout its existence that the offseason excitement that comes from teams trying to buy their way to success in FA never actually works out in the long-run.  For example, a guy like Mosley is a pretty good money bet to never live up to his deal, but that's not against him as much as it is a nearly impossible task for the position he plays.  It all comes down to the draft and the truth of the matter is that, beyond Darnold, who was picked on the basis of going all in on whichever QB happened to be there, despite not even knowing who that would be, the rest of his resume in the draft has been pretty horrid.  Pretty much every other pick of his that attempts to be celebrated is never even a situation of having found a great player, but rather patting him on the back for going above the very low standard we've now set for him, and finding someone who wasn't a complete bust.

While this team may very well be able to do much better for no other reason than the immense talent of Darnold, I'm simply worried that overall team success thanks to Darnold, despite a horrid supporting cast, will lead to Maccagnan undeservedly keeping his job while really only making Darnold's job more difficult.  We've seen it before with other franchise QBs in the NFL, and I'd really rather not Darnold be another one of those who turns out to be great himself, but part of a team that never quite properly utilizes what they have.  We'll see how it all goes, but at this point I'm simply expecting the worst and hoping to be pleasantly surprised in the end.

[TNJet]

I say keep Lee. I'm actually a big fan of his speed and ball skills. Could do worse for depth. Or if anything Coach G.Will can find a way to use his speed off the edge. Quite a no brainer here. Plus he could help if someone got injured.

[Bocajetfan]

35 minutes ago, TNJet said:

I say keep Lee. I'm actually a big fan of his speed and ball skills. Could do worse for depth. Or if anything Coach G.Will can find a way to use his speed off the edge. Quite a no brainer here. Plus he could help if someone got injured.

Agree with this. Lee has a skill set that I believe was never used or developed by Bowles. If Williams is unable to get more out of Lee ( I believe he will) he walks and you were not going to get much or anything for him anyway.

[Beerfish]

People keep saying they want to see what Lee can do under Williams.   I think it is more likely that Lee is turfed because we have williams. 

[Bocajetfan]

11 minutes ago, Beerfish said:

People keep saying they want to see what Lee can do under Williams.   I think it is more likely that Lee is turfed because we have williams. 

At best the Jets would get a conditional pick for Lee. Bowles and Rogers did nothing to develop players. Williams has a history of getting the most out of his players. Just think it’s worth the time to see if Lee has any value. You weren’t getting value back anyway let the preseason play out and go from there.

[varjet]

51 minutes ago, Bocajetfan said:

Bowles and Rogers did nothing to develop players.

This really is the biggest part of the problem.  

[Bleedin Green]

2 hours ago, varjet said:

This really is the biggest part of the problem.  

Except the fact that there's absolutely no evidence to support that claim.  That's not to say that either are in any way good coaches, but there has quite literally been zero Maccagnan acquisitions that have gone on to have greater success in their post-Jets' careers.  The players who failed here, all went on to fail league-wide, regardless of who coached them.

There's a significant difference between overall team performance and individual player performance, and there were certainly a long list of issues with Bowles in his addressing of the former, but nothing that actually supports coaching-related failures with the latter.

I'm fine with keeping Lee around for depth purposes, as he certainly hasn't been nearly as bad as his greatest detractors suggest, but the areas where he has struggled are the responsibility of himself, and that those struggles have been happening on this team, the fault of Maccagnan.

[choon328]

Bringing back Hewitt sealed Lee's fate. Hewitt played well while Lee was out the last 4 weeks and with the addition of Mosley it makes no sense to keep Lee around if you can get a draft asset in return. It's not just about the draft comp. Lee will be a free agent after next year and if you get a 5th/6th round pick in return that's 4 years of a cheap roster spot potentially. That matters. 

[NYJ1]

5 hours ago, Bocajetfan said:

Agree with this. Lee has a skill set that I believe was never used or developed by Bowles. If Williams is unable to get more out of Lee ( I believe he will) he walks and you were not going to get much or anything for him anyway.

It was never developed because there isn't anything there to develop. To say he's never been developed and all that "talent" is somehow hidden is absurd. The best always rises to the top. It's ridiculous to think if Lee is so talented that it wouldn't have somehow shown.

[NYJ1]

5 hours ago, Bocajetfan said:

At best the Jets would get a conditional pick for Lee. Bowles and Rogers did nothing to develop players. Williams has a history of getting the most out of his players. Just think it’s worth the time to see if Lee has any value. You weren’t getting value back anyway let the preseason play out and go from there.

Worth the time? What about the last 4 years?

[Bocajetfan]

9 minutes ago, NYJ1 said:

Worth the time? What about the last 4 years?

On a rookie contract so cheap, new system how does he end up fitting. Has little to no trade value. So what is the issue with waiting for preseason to finish and seeing where the chips fall. As I said earlier trade value at Best appears to be a conditional pick. So yes give it time to play out.

[CanadienJetsFan]

Not sure if this was posted ... would it be something if he’d be part of the D Lawrence trade? What? One can dream...

• 

  DARRON LEELB, NEW YORK JETS

  

  ESPN Jets reporter Rich Cimini's "sense" is New York will shop ILB Darron Lee during next month's draft.

  Despite showing signs of improvement last year, Lee hasn't delivered on his first-round promise and appears to be on the outs in East Rutherford. The Jets don't have much use for Lee after paying up for C.J. Mosley in free agency and should be motivated to move him before the regular season starts. It would be a stunner if the Jets picked up Lee's fifth-year option for 2020, which would have to be exercised by May 3.

  SOURCE: ESPN.com

  Mar 24, 2019, 9:29 AM

[Philc1]

7 hours ago, Beerfish said:

People keep saying they want to see what Lee can do under Williams.   I think it is more likely that Lee is turfed because we have williams. 

New regime here.  These guys have no attachment to Lee unlike Bowles

 

Either Lee gets traded for a late rd pick or he gets cut

 

[GREENBEAN]

On 3/23/2019 at 12:18 PM, Bleedin Green said:

I think you should know full well I'm the last person that should be apologized to for wordy posts, haha.  If you actually take the time to actually read my lengthy rants, the very least I can do is return the favor!

I do get your point, and really don't disagree with the majority of it.  It's definitely been a problematic trend for years, at both GM and HC, having the constant turnover of first-timers at the job.  With that said, the flip side to that is there's yet to be a single one of those the Jets have fired that have gone on to see greater success with more experience, as the likes of Herm, Mangini, Rex, and Tannenbaum all got more chances at their jobs with other teams, and none have given reason to believe that a longer commitment from the Jets would have been the solution.  Meanwhile, the likes of Bradway, Idzik, and Bowles weren't even thought worthy of a second chance by other teams.  My point simply being, just giving more time isn't necessarily a solution.  It seems the bigger problem is Jets' ownership doing a terrible job at their hiring of these positions.

Now I know of course Maccagnan isn't getting fired today, and as much as I may despise him having the job right now, nothing would make me happier for him to prove me completely wrong about everything I've said and thought about his competence.  However, 5 years in, my position is that he is deserving of absolutely no benefit of the doubt in anything he says or does, until he's earned it back ten fold, because he's certainly done more than enough to lose that privilege.  There may have been some good, but it's far outweighed by the bad to this point.

This FA period doesn't do much to excite me and change my mind, but honestly that's not even specific to Macc, but more the fact that the NFL has shown throughout its existence that the offseason excitement that comes from teams trying to buy their way to success in FA never actually works out in the long-run.  For example, a guy like Mosley is a pretty good money bet to never live up to his deal, but that's not against him as much as it is a nearly impossible task for the position he plays.  It all comes down to the draft and the truth of the matter is that, beyond Darnold, who was picked on the basis of going all in on whichever QB happened to be there, despite not even knowing who that would be, the rest of his resume in the draft has been pretty horrid.  Pretty much every other pick of his that attempts to be celebrated is never even a situation of having found a great player, but rather patting him on the back for going above the very low standard we've now set for him, and finding someone who wasn't a complete bust.

While this team may very well be able to do much better for no other reason than the immense talent of Darnold, I'm simply worried that overall team success thanks to Darnold, despite a horrid supporting cast, will lead to Maccagnan undeservedly keeping his job while really only making Darnold's job more difficult.  We've seen it before with other franchise QBs in the NFL, and I'd really rather not Darnold be another one of those who turns out to be great himself, but part of a team that never quite properly utilizes what they have.  We'll see how it all goes, but at this point I'm simply expecting the worst and hoping to be pleasantly surprised in the end.

Again, good points.

The highlighted sentence really sums up much of a major issue we've had. Outside of Rex. I do not believe any of the coaches hired since Parcells, and even since Joe Walton before him, really deserved the position of HC. A weak list of OC's and DC's who have been in their positions for short spells before being given the keys. Herm being a friggin D backs coach for Pete's sake!!  It's just been piss poor mgmt overall. This is one of the items that supports my thinking, at least in my head anyway. 

Macc, for all of his warts is a football mind. A scouting mind. I do believe he has gotten a bit too cute and also made some flat out terrible choices and decisions. But sadly, he is one of the more accomplished people we've had in the position for a very long time. The Jets history is to hire terrible people for high level positions. What leads us to believe we are going to get some new guy in here to right the ship? Now, our past history of hiring unsuccessful GM's is no basis for keeping Macc in and of itself, in the same way posters on here devalue having draft picks because we haven't done well in the draft. It's silly thinking when singular, but it does work as supporting evidence in this case. The bar is low here and that may affect my thinking, but I don't think that's it. 

Like I said previously, I see Macc as slowly and steadily grasping the job and potentially being at a place where we can move past the bone headed decisions. This is due to some of the positives I listed in my last post. The jewels are there. They are outweighed by the negatives. That is true. But they are there. There is enough to hint at a guy who was initially overwhelmed by the weight of it all. Like when a hot shot Qb comes in to the league and has a rough couple of years where the game seems to be moving too fast.  The game may be slowing down. At least that's my hope. 

When you add that he was on equal footing with a rookie HC who really couldn't hold up his end at all it exacerbates the problem exponentially. And if Pepper Johnson's article can be believed, said HC, was a fear based ego maniac devoid of the ability to entertain ideas not his own. It was a complete Sh*t Show with no real potential for success. 

My hope is this. We just signed a HC who has 3 years experience in the position after being a coordinator for many years. (I wanted McCarthy but that's another story entirely) We signed a DC who has HC experience and could have gotten another DC job elsewhere if he thought macc incompetent.  We have a real brain trust of guys who are respected around the league and Macc has 4 years of experience making the wrong moves. There's a quality saying out there. "you learn more from what not to do than what TO do"  

Again,I see more positives than many, or most others do. That's fine. But what I really think is the greatest positive is that the mistakes have already been made. There's a lot to learn from that man.  Do you really think Macc will ever make a Hackenberg play again?  I sure as hell don't. He took a shot and tried to be the smartest guy in the room. He wasn't. That wisdom only comes from making mistakes like that. It's important. 

That all said, i think we understand each other. We are on the same team and we are both hoping for the same thing here. The bad news is that we are the Jets and I am not all that convinced Gase is the guy. If he's not this is going to mean more ugly years which just flat out blows. 

The good news is that we have guys with experience for the first time since Parcells. Thats 20 damn years. But they have it. That alone is much different than we are used to seeing here. So at least there is that. 

PS. i agree that Mosley will most likely not live up to his contract.. I don't see how anyone could live up to that contract, but I'm still happy he's here. Bell, Crowder, KO and Mosely added to Adams, Darnold, Williamson and some others is good stuff.  Serious players who seem to be of the same hard working no nonsense attitude. That's a good way to build the roster. 

[Jet Nut]

9 hours ago, Bocajetfan said:

At best the Jets would get a conditional pick for Lee. Bowles and Rogers did nothing to develop players. Williams has a history of getting the most out of his players. Just think it’s worth the time to see if Lee has any value. You weren’t getting value back anyway let the preseason play out and go from there.

Lee has improved every season.

He played pretty well a year ago.  Anyone who argues that has no clue what theyre talking about.  Selling low doesnt make a whole lot of sense.  Hes worth keeping to see if he continues to improve