Is Bell the best offensive player that ever played for the Jets?

[Smashmouth]

23 hours ago, T0mShane said:

Jets fan, settling into seat for Week One: “These are truly the...”

:Leveon Bell has both femurs broken on a low hit from Tremaine Edmunds:

”...salad days.”

we're safe now

[nyjunc]

22 minutes ago, NYs Stepchild said:

The question was who is the best offensive player, not who is the best offensive player you've seen. 

Are you trying to say that a lineman cannot be a better player than a RB, or a WR? 

Maybe you don't know but the game has changed over time. Defenses used to be allowed to mug offenses. No one was getting 1500 yards in the 60s. 

Maynard had 1400 in 67 which led pro football. He was the only player to break 100 yards per game. 

Marshall was only 4th in 2015.  2 players broke 1800 yards. 

I partially agree with you but the AFL was a passing league and way ahead of their time.  Namath attempted 491 passes that season(35 a game), Fitz attempted 562 in 16 games (35 a game).

I think I'd rate Maynard ahead but Marshall had an incredible year with a mediocre QB.  

I think Maynard is the best offensive player we have ever had but if Bell picks up where he left off he'll take over that spot.  We have never had a weapon like Bell before.

[#27TheDominator]

I don't know how anybody could say Bell.  He hasn't even played for the team yet.  The Jets have had plenty of great players come over after their peaks.  Was Art Monk a great offensive player for the Jets?  I mean, if you are going to say Bell, then probably Tomlinson was the greatest offensive player to play for the Jets and he kind of sucked. 

Brandon Marshall had a great season, but everything was so high volume that I never felt he was as good as peak Toon, let alone Maynard. Healthy young McNeil and Riggins were both pretty amazing.  Boozer too, but like Maynard he was before my time.

[nyjunc]

8 minutes ago, #27TheDominator said:

I don't know how anybody could say Bell.  He hasn't even played for the team yet.  The Jets have had plenty of great players come over after their peaks.  Was Art Monk a great offensive player for the Jets?  I mean, if you are going to say Bell, then probably Tomlinson was the greatest offensive player to play for the Jets and he kind of sucked. 

Brandon Marshall had a great season, but everything was so high volume that I never felt he was as good as peak Toon, let alone Maynard. Healthy young McNeil and Riggins were both pretty amazing.  Boozer too, but like Maynard he was before my time.

No one is saying he's the best Jet, obviously that's not true but we've never had a weapon like him in his prime.

Art monk was an incredibly overrated player, wasn't even the best but wr on his team during his era(Gary Clark).

I love Al Toon, one of my all time favorites but Brandon Marshall's 2015 season was head and shoulders better than Toon's best season.

Freeman was never healthy, I have always said he's the most dynamic RB we ever had but Curtis had the best career but Freeman just couldn't stay healthy.

 

We have never had a weapon like Bell in his prime.  

[#27TheDominator]

9 minutes ago, nyjunc said:

No one is saying he's the best Jet, obviously that's not true but we've never had a weapon like him in his prime.

Art monk was an incredibly overrated player, wasn't even the best but wr on his team during his era(Gary Clark).

I love Al Toon, one of my all time favorites but Brandon Marshall's 2015 season was head and shoulders better than Toon's best season.

Freeman was never healthy, I have always said he's the most dynamic RB we ever had but Curtis had the best career but Freeman just couldn't stay healthy.

 

We have never had a weapon like Bell in his prime.  

Do we have a weapon like Bell in his prime right now?  You have no idea. It's a nice dream, but if other teams believed that we did, the bidding would have gone much higher. 

[Sperm Edwards]

21 hours ago, Warfish said:

Year	Age	Tm	Pos	No.	G	GS	Rush	Yds	TD	Lng	Y/A	Y/G	A/G	Tgt	Rec	Yds	Y/R	TD	Lng	R/G	Y/G	Ctch%	Touch	Y/Tch	YScm	RRTD	Fmb	AV
Career					168	166	3518	14101	90	70	4.0	83.9	20.9	606	484	3329	6.9	10	41	2.9	19.8		4002	4.4	17430	100	29	128
8 yrs		NYJ			123	123	2560	10302	58	60	4.0	83.8	20.8	453	367	2439	6.6	5	34	3.0	19.8		2927	4.4	12741	63	17	92
1995*	22	NWE	RB	28	16	15	368	1487	14	49	4.0	92.9	23.0	50	30	261	8.7	1	27	1.9	16.3	60.0%	398	4.4	1748	15	5	10
1996*	23	NWE	RB	28	16	15	316	1152	14	57	3.6	72.0	19.8	52	46	333	7.2	3	41	2.9	20.8	88.5%	362	4.1	1485	17	4	13
1997	24	NWE	RB	28	13	13	274	1160	4	70	4.2	89.2	21.1	51	41	296	7.2	1	22	3.2	22.8	80.4%	315	4.6	1456	5	3	13
1998*	25	NYJ	RB	28	15	15	369	1287	8	60	3.5	85.8	24.6	57	43	365	8.5	1	23	2.9	24.3	75.4%	412	4.0	1652	9	5	13
1999	26	NYJ	RB	28	16	16	367	1464	5	50	4.0	91.5	22.9	49	45	259	5.8	0	34	2.8	16.2	91.8%	412	4.2	1723	5	2	13
2000	27	NYJ	RB	28	16	16	316	1204	9	55	3.8	75.3	19.8	96	70	508	7.3	2	31	4.4	31.8	72.9%	386	4.4	1712	11	2	10
2001*	28	NYJ	RB	28	16	16	333	1513	10	47	4.5	94.6	20.8	63	53	320	6.0	0	27	3.3	20.0	84.1%	386	4.7	1833	10	2	15
2002	29	NYJ	RB	28	16	16	261	1094	7	35	4.2	68.4	16.3	56	49	362	7.4	0	28	3.1	22.6	87.5%	310	4.7	1456	7	0	12
2003	30	NYJ	RB	28	16	16	323	1308	2	56	4.0	81.8	20.2	53	42	262	6.2	0	29	2.6	16.4	79.2%	365	4.3	1570	2	2	11
2004*+	31	NYJ	RB	28	16	16	371	1697	12	25	4.6	106.1	23.2	49	41	245	6.0	2	22	2.6	15.3	83.7%	412	4.7	1942	14	2	14
2005	32	NYJ	RB	28	12	12	220	735	5	49	3.3	61.3	18.3	30	24	118	4.9	0	14	2.0	9.8	80.0%	244	3.5	853	5	2	4

Curtis Martin.

					Games		Rushing							Receiving									Total Yds
Year	Age	Tm	Pos	No.	G	GS	Rush	Yds	TD	Lng	Y/A	Y/G	A/G	Tgt	Rec	Yds	Y/R	TD	Lng	R/G	Y/G	Ctch%	Touch	Y/Tch	YScm	RRTD	Fmb	AV
Career					62	62	1229	5336	35	81	4.3	86.1	19.8	397	312	2660	8.5	7	48	5.0	42.9		1541	5.2	7996	42	8	60
2013	21	PIT	RB	26	13	13	244	860	8	43	3.5	66.2	18.8	66	45	399	8.9	0	43	3.5	30.7	68.2%	289	4.4	1259	8	1	8
2014*+	22	PIT	RB	26	16	16	290	1361	8	81	4.7	85.1	18.1	105	83	854	10.3	3	48	5.2	53.4	79.0%	373	5.9	2215	11	0	17
2015	23	PIT	rb	26	6	6	113	556	3	42	4.9	92.7	18.8	26	24	136	5.7	0	20	4.0	22.7	92.3%	137	5.1	692	3	0	5
2016*	24	PIT	RB	26	12	12	261	1268	7	44	4.9	105.7	21.8	94	75	616	8.2	2	32	6.3	51.3	79.8%	336	5.6	1884	9	4	15
2017*+	25	PIT	RB	26	15	15	321	1291	9	27	4.0	86.1	21.4	106	85	655	7.7	2	42	5.7	43.7	80.2%	406	4.8	1946	11	3	15

La'Veon Bell

Judge for yourself, but personally I think Martin was a better runner, Bell a better pass catcher.  Martin did it for a very long time at a very elite level and almost never missed time due to injury or off field issues, he was the definition of durable, reliable and tough.  Bell lost half a year, then part of a year, then sat out a yea for money.

Bell's numbers are nothing to sneeze at, but it should also be reminded that he had a borderline HOF QB, some exceptional WR's, and a pretty damn good O-line for pretty much his entire tenure in Pitts.  

I get being excited, and we should be.  But we SHOULD wait and see how he plays here before we go off the deep end, really. 

And we don't need to demean or dismiss or insult some of our best players in history in order to talk up the new guy.  New guy will do just fine without such fan service.

In fairness, Martin didn't have to sit out for money because he was a RFA after just 3 years, after which Parcells gave him a contract that would be today's equivalent of $20MM/year (followed by Bradway's restructure/extension 4 years in at the same rate, which would still be $15MM/year starting at age 29). 

My biggest concern with Bell - and figuring the Jets aren't winning it all under this GM's team management anyway I'm ok with it - is he fades late in the season. I think he's not just a better receiver but also a better runner than Martin, however he's nowhere near as durable (few at the position are/were). I don't think we're going to exceed one/done - and possibly never reach even that - until a better GM is in place, even if Gase proves adequate enough, so at least providing Darnold with an elite safety valve RB who truly keeps the LBs/safeties honest IMO is worthwhile for 2 seasons. Wish they also gave him a better center - and better tackles - but the offseason isn't over yet, and that's a different topic. 

Lost in all his above stats is that he didn't see a Steelers postseason game until his 4th season (and then after 2 productive playoff games that year, playing through a groin injury he claimed he kept from the team, was useless in the championship game against NE). Before that he missed the playoffs in his 2nd season, then missed the playoffs again in his 3rd season (well he only played in weeks 3-8). Then in his last postseason game, showed up late and missed pregame walkthrough practice (though apparently so did others under Tomlin, including "a coach or two"). 

If the Jets ever manage to look like SB contenders, Bell's career history suggests they'll likely have to get through (if not to) that championship game without him. 

[Miss Lonelyhearts]

3 minutes ago, #27TheDominator said:

Do we have a weapon like Bell in his prime right now?  You have no idea. It's a nice dream, but if other teams believed that we did, the bidding would have gone much higher. 

PREZGMAL effect scared them off duh

[nyjunc]

26 minutes ago, #27TheDominator said:

Do we have a weapon like Bell in his prime right now?  You have no idea. It's a nice dream, but if other teams believed that we did, the bidding would have gone much higher. 

It doesn't matter what other teams believe, obviously he needs to prove he's still great but he should be at least for another 2-3 years.

[More Cowbell]

52 minutes ago, #27TheDominator said:

I don't know how anybody could say Bell.  He hasn't even played for the team yet.  The Jets have had plenty of great players come over after their peaks.  Was Art Monk a great offensive player for the Jets?  I mean, if you are going to say Bell, then probably Tomlinson was the greatest offensive player to play for the Jets and he kind of sucked. 

Brandon Marshall had a great season, but everything was so high volume that I never felt he was as good as peak Toon, let alone Maynard. Healthy young McNeil and Riggins were both pretty amazing.  Boozer too, but like Maynard he was before my time.

Bell isn't  past his peak, quite the opposite,  he is in his prime.

[shawn306]

3 hours ago, nyjunc said:

Bell has played 5 seasons, he's already been a 2 time 1st team all pro and a 1 time 2nd team all pro w/ 42 TDs(8.4 per season)

Wesley Walker: one 1st team all pro in 13 years w/ 71 TDs(5.5 per season)

Al Toon One 1st team all pro, one 2econd team all pro in 8 seasons w/ 31 TDs(3.9)

Freeman McNeil: One 1st team all pro in 12 seasons(strike shortened 1982 season) w/ 50 TDs(4.2)

Don Maynard: One 1st team all pro, three 2nd team all pro in 15 years w/ 88 TDs(5.9)

 

Bell is also on track to be a HOFer, the only guy in the list above who is one is Don Maynard.  It is not an insult to say Bell, if he continues his high level play from Pitt, will be the greatest offensive player we have ever had. 

Fair.

Just not ready to anoint Bell the greatest Jet.

[Savage69]

1 hour ago, nyjunc said:

I partially agree with you but the AFL was a passing league and way ahead of their time.  Namath attempted 491 passes that season(35 a game), Fitz attempted 562 in 16 games (35 a game).

I think I'd rate Maynard ahead but Marshall had an incredible year with a mediocre QB.  

I think Maynard is the best offensive player we have ever had but if Bell picks up where he left off he'll take over that spot.  We have never had a weapon like Bell before.

The DB's played a much tougher game before the 1978 rule changes.. There was no 5 yard rule..

[Savage69]

4 hours ago, nyjunc said:

Bell has played 5 seasons, he's already been a 2 time 1st team all pro and a 1 time 2nd team all pro w/ 42 TDs(8.4 per season)

Wesley Walker: one 1st team all pro in 13 years w/ 71 TDs(5.5 per season)

Al Toon One 1st team all pro, one 2econd team all pro in 8 seasons w/ 31 TDs(3.9)

Freeman McNeil: One 1st team all pro in 12 seasons(strike shortened 1982 season) w/ 50 TDs(4.2)

Don Maynard: One 1st team all pro, three 2nd team all pro in 15 years w/ 88 TDs(5.9)

 

Bell is also on track to be a HOFer, the only guy in the list above who is one is Don Maynard.  It is not an insult to say Bell, if he continues his high level play from Pitt, will be the greatest offensive player we have ever had. 

Hey you cheated Freeman out of a ypc he was 5.2 in 1982.. Career he was 4.5 ypc

[slimjasi]

1 hour ago, #27TheDominator said:

Do we have a weapon like Bell in his prime right now?  You have no idea. It's a nice dream, but if other teams believed that we did, the bidding would have gone much higher. 

The guy is 27. Are you telling me that you think there is a realistic chance that he will never be the same player again . . . at 27?

 

IMO, he has, at the very least, two prime seasons left. 
 

He plays the most devalued position in the NFL. Most teams don't like giving running backs huge contracts. 

[#27TheDominator]

3 minutes ago, slimjasi said:

The guy is 27. Are you telling me that you think there is a realistic chance that he will never be the same player again . . . at 27?

 

IMO, he has, at the very least, two prime seasons left. 
 

He plays the most devalued position in the NFL. Most teams don't like giving running backs huge contracts. 

Yep.  No player has had a great career end before the age of 27.  Never happened.  I certainly think he will still be great, but the idea that he has to be is a bit much. 

[slimjasi]

Curtis had an unbelievably durable and productive career. He's an all-time great. 

But, prime vs. prime? Bell is clearly a more dominant player who, as Curtis alluded to himself, has more talent than Curtis ever had. Bell's first five seasons in the league speak for themselves. This doesn't mean he will have the career that Curtis had. (Chances are probably good that he won't have anywhere near Curtis's long term durability) 

[slimjasi]

4 minutes ago, #27TheDominator said:

Yep.  No player has had a great career end before the age of 27.  Never happened.  I certainly think he will still be great, but the idea that he has to be is a bit much. 

Stop. You sound silly. What are the odds that he suddenly sucks . . . at 27 . . . after a full year without taking hits?

Seriously, I am not being rhetorical. I want odds.  Bell was one of the 2 best running backs in the sport two years ago. Last year, he didn't play a down.  Give me your prognostication going forward. 

If he were coming off a career threatening injury, I would totally get your reservations. But I just don't see why Bell shouldn't reasonably be expected to be an elite player next year. 

[Savage69]

7 minutes ago, slimjasi said:

Curtis had an unbelievably durable and productive career. He's an all-time great. 

But, prime vs. prime? Bell is clearly a more dominant player who, as Curtis alluded to himself, has more talent than Curtis ever had. Bell's first five seasons in the league speak for themselves. This doesn't mean he will have the career that Curtis had. (Chances are probably good that he won't have anywhere near Curtis's long term durability) 

Cumar was durable no doubt and no way Bell plays that long..On the bright side Bell didn't cost a 1st and 3rd pick like Martin did.. Frank Gore has compiled more yardage then the compiler and he's still playing..

[#27TheDominator]

37 minutes ago, slimjasi said:

Stop. You sound silly. What are the odds that he suddenly sucks . . . at 27 . . . after a full year without taking hits?

Seriously, I am not being rhetorical. I want odds.  Bell was one of the 2 best running backs in the sport two years ago. Last year, he didn't play a down.  Give me your prognostication going forward. 

If he were coming off a career threatening injury, I would totally get your reservations. But I just don't see why Bell shouldn't reasonably be expected to be an elite player next year. 

Stop and give you odds?  You think "a full year without taking hits" makes it more likely that he returns as good as ever?  I do reasonable expect him to be great.  This thread is discussing him as an all-time great going forward as if it is a foregone conclusion.  It's not.  Look at what a guy like Demarco Murray did after age 27.  Am I supposed to believe he would have been better if he just took 2015 off?

[slimjasi]

27 minutes ago, #27TheDominator said:

Stop and give you odds?   I do reasonable expect him to be great.  This thread is discussing him as an all-time great going forward as if it is a foregone conclusion. 

I don't think it is being taken that way. I think people are just excited because he is easily one of the most physically talented players we have ever had who is, currently in the prime of his career, and putting up historically dominant statistics. We really have never had a guy like that. 

Is he guaranteed to be an all-time great going forward? No. But he's had an all-time great start to his career and he is now a Jet. 

27 minutes ago, #27TheDominator said:

You think "a full year without taking hits" makes it more likely that he returns as good as ever? . . .  Look at what a guy like Demarco Murray did after age 27.  Am I supposed to believe he would have been better if he just took 2015 off?

Absolutely!

Running backs have a finite number of touches in them. It's no different than miles on a car. 

 

[#27TheDominator]

4 minutes ago, slimjasi said:

Absolutely!

Running backs have a finite number of touches in them. It's no different than miles on a car. 

If that is how you feel, you might want to be concerned about Bell.  He has over 1500 touches.  Demarco Murray only had 1100 with Dallas.

[slimjasi]

2 minutes ago, #27TheDominator said:

If that is how you feel, you might want to be concerned about Bell.  He has over 1500 touches.  Demarco Murray only had 1100 with Dallas.

Fair, but that's another reason I'm so high on the year off. 

 

I also think Bell is a better player than Murray

[BornJetsFan1983]

On 3/18/2019 at 6:16 AM, JOJOTOWNSELL said:

He is.  Not even close.

 

when was the last time a jets player went in the first round of a fantasy draft like Le’Veon Bell will this year? Never 

Actaully a case should be made in your League that Bell could be a second rounder or late first. I know I know blaspehmey and I for one will be picking bell with my first pick no matter where I draft, but if I wasn't a homer I would take him in the 2nd with so much uncertainty and our line. But whatever my first round pick has disappointed the last two years in a row with injury. If I am going to get screwed with the first pick it might as well be with my team.

Thats how i look at it, plus im good with drafting well in the back of the draft anyway to I can overcome, but if it works out and Bell is a beast I will absolutely lose my sh*t if Bell is going off against me in the playoffs..

Spoiler I will also be drafting Sam, kid could turn into a montser in ff...

[Joe W. Namath]

Keyshawn Johnson was the best offensive player ive ever seen play for the jets.

[nyjunc]

2 hours ago, shawn306 said:

Fair.

Just not ready to anoint Bell the greatest Jet.

My point isn't that he is a great Jet, he hasn't played a game but based on sheer talent I don't think we've ever had a playmaker like him.  This assumes we are getting the great version which we don't know yet.

[nyjunc]

2 hours ago, Savage69 said:

Hey you cheated Freeman out of a ypc he was 5.2 in 1982.. Career he was 4.5 ypc

That was his average total TDs per year not YPC.

[nyjunc]

1 hour ago, Savage69 said:

Cumar was durable no doubt and no way Bell plays that long..On the bright side Bell didn't cost a 1st and 3rd pick like Martin did.. Frank Gore has compiled more yardage then the compiler and he's still playing..

Frank and Curtis are very similar.  The biggest difference is Curtis only had one year under 1000 yds(his injury shortened final season) while Gore has had 5.  Gore was top 5 in rushing yds one time and never led (highest finish was 3), Chris finished top 5 four times(all top 3) including leading one time and finished second twice.

[Savage69]

10 minutes ago, nyjunc said:

Frank and Curtis are very similar.  The biggest difference is Curtis only had one year under 1000 yds(his injury shortened final season) while Gore has had 5.  Gore was top 5 in rushing yds one time and never led (highest finish was 3), Chris finished top 5 four times(all top 3) including leading one time and finished second twice.

Gore had 1 year with 300+ carries Martin had 8.. In 2004 Martin won by 1 yard thanks to KC's Holmes being hurt and 2 overtime games and Homgren not letting Alexander get back into his game.. A rushing title would have given him a 250 K bonus..

[#27TheDominator]

37 minutes ago, Joe W. Namath said:

Keyshawn Johnson was the best offensive player ive ever seen play for the jets.

You poor poor man.

[#27TheDominator]

It was a strike year, so people forget, but McNeil led the NFL in yards and yards per carry in '82. He stepped up in the playoffs too, going for 202 and 101 in Cincy and Oakland before that old **** left the tarp off the field.  He may have been the best player in football in 1982.

[nyjunc]

1 hour ago, Savage69 said:

Gore had 1 year with 300+ carries Martin had 8.. In 2004 Martin won by 1 yard thanks to KC's Holmes being hurt and 2 overtime games and Homgren not letting Alexander get back into his game.. A rushing title would have given him a 250 K bonus..

So Curtis could carry a heavier workload.

I just see excuses, did he get the rushing title or not? He was second by 42 yds in 2001 and finished second also in 1999.  Gore never finished as high as second

 

[CTM]

1 minute ago, nyjunc said:

So Curtis could carry a heavier workload.

I just see excuses, did he get the rushing title or not? He was second by 42 yds in 2001 and finished second also in 1999.  Gore never finished as high as second

 

Gore averaged 10% more yards per carry.

[nyjunc]

Just now, CTM said:

Gore averaged 10% more yards per carry.

Both are comparable players, Gore has tgr edge in ypc and rec TDs while Curtis in rush TDs, 1000 yd seasons, rushing titles, top 5 in rushing, receptions, all pro selections(Curtis 1x 1st tm and 2x 2nd tm. Gore 1x 2nd tm).