Is it an indictment on Maccagnan that he was willing to give up a 6th overall pick plus three 2nd rounders for Rosen?

[Dcat]

1 hour ago, GREENBEAN said:

Hey. Your point is equally difficult to prove ya know.  


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I'm NOT trying to prove ANY point.  I'm NOT claiming that Mac "knew" or "didn't know" what Gettleman was planning to do at #2.  I was responding to a very silly post that made the absolute claim that Mac "knew", 100%, what the Giants were going to do at pick #2, therefore the poster claims, it was a safe trade.  Sorry, but wishing it were true does not make it so, much to the chagrin of the poster I was responding to.  

[Dcat]

4 hours ago, UnitedWhofans said:

 

So he was lucky that Saquon was in the top part to begin with but knowing the Giants would take him was not luck IMO.

Much better argument than Dcat

prove it.  You can't.  So stop claiming it.  You have no knowledge NONE what Mac knew/didn't know.  /idiotic

I'm not arguing anything.  I don't know if he knew or didn't.  But I'm not going to absurdly assume Mac knew like you insist on doing.  Your entire point is based on an unproven assumption.

[ZachEY]

6 hours ago, jgb said:

 

Got no problem with people holding and expressing strong opinions... what chafes me is when people mock the opinions of others. Like being accused of political motives for predicting Rosen will stink.

Not that I've accused you as such, but I imagine if you wanted to avoid being accused of not liking him for political reasons, you could stop calling him a SJW...

[Beerfish]

47 minutes ago, bitonti said:

but both of those players would have been available at 6 for free 

that would be even dumber than trading 3 2nds for Barkley (who by the way is a super star) 

1 year so far of a super star back that helped the giants to a 5 win season.  You win with QBs not great backs for the most part.  Backs have a short shelf life, QBs these days play until they are 40.

And your first comment is correct, that is why mac go very lucky.  Top two teams go Qb and we just traded away 3 2nd rounders to take QBs that would have been there.

[ZachEY]

4 hours ago, Dcat said:

 You are not right.  Nothing I wrote "tells you" you are right.  You haven't the foggiest clue whether or not Maccagnan "knew" that Gettleman was going to take Barkley.  You claim that "everyone" "Gase" "Maccagnan" even yourself, "knew.  THe truth: You didn't know, and you presently do not know any such thing.  Pure speculation.  You reach your conclusioon because you want to believe that.  There is not one shred of evidence, including the opinion in the tweet you so cherish, to tell us whether or not Mac "knew" what Gettleman was going to do.

 What you claim is a "logical deduction" is merely hopeful speculation.  The response to your assertion is "prove it, bud".  You can't.  Therefore your assertion is only speculation and is no way confirmed or valid.  

Everything that leads up to the draft is misinformation except after the draft when it's no longer misinformation and I can cherry pick that stuff to support my point of view.

[GREENBEAN]

I'm NOT trying to prove ANY point.  I'm NOT claiming that Mac "knew" or "didn't know" what Gettleman was planning to do at #2.  I was responding to a very silly post that made the absolute claim that Mac "knew", 100%, what the Giants were going to do at pick #2, therefore the poster claims, it was a safe trade.  Sorry, but wishing it were true does not make it so, much to the chagrin of the poster I was responding to.  

Well... whatever then. Forget i said anything.

Even the bit about chocolate shakes and handies


Sent from my iPhone using JetNation.com mobile app

[ZachEY]

2 hours ago, Integrity28 said:

As many said at the time, the Giants saved Mac from Mac. This is a hypothetical outcome and really not worth debating. We already know he sucks as a GM.

Pretty much this.  There's no point in fabricating reasons to criticize Macc.  His resume is enough.

[bitonti]

5 minutes ago, Beerfish said:

 And your first comment is correct, that is why mac go very lucky.   

1

this is all moot as it seems everyone in the world knew Barkley was going to the giants. But all that aside they wouldn't have traded up to 3 if the intention was to draft either of the Joshes Allen or Rosen.  Allen went 7, Rosen went 10. to take them at 3 would have been reaches - something Mac hasn't done at all in the first round 

[joenamathwouldn'tcry]

1 hour ago, T0mShane said:

You did that for 368 words.

If you are sitting there counting words in a reply, it's worse than I thought....  What time is Jello?

[UnitedWhofans]

3 hours ago, Dcat said:

prove it.  You can't.  So stop claiming it.  You have no knowledge NONE what Mac knew/didn't know.  /idiotic

I'm not arguing anything.  I don't know if he knew or didn't.  But I'm not going to absurdly assume Mac knew like you insist on doing.  Your entire point is based on an unproven assumption.

My point is based on the fact that if Macc has a brain cell in his head, and it was that apparent they were taking Barkley, then Macc must have known if it was that obvious to people inside the league.

To say that he didn’t know is to infer that he is a walking cadaver with no element of intelligence or recognition.

Maybe that’s your point at the end of the day.

[jgb]

5 hours ago, TeddEY said:

Not that I've accused you as such, but I imagine if you wanted to avoid being accused of not liking him for political reasons, you could stop calling him a SJW...

Dude, I’m hamming it up. And by the way, there’s a difference between thinking a guy will stink for political reasons and predicting his political stance will limit his opportunities. I don’t care what his politics are but GMs might. The Kaepernick effect. But hey the Internet and nuance don’t mix very well I guess.

[Villain The Foe]

21 hours ago, Jetsbb said:

It has been leaked that Macagnan traded up to 3 so he could get either Darnold, Baker or Rosen. If the Giants took Darnold like a lot of people expected if he fell to them Rosen would have gone to the Jets in exchange for three 2nd rounders and the 6th overall pick. Pretty astounding considering Cardinals are struggling to get one 2nd rounder for him a year later.

Of course its an indictment. 

I was one of the few people to call the trade from 6 to 3 a "stupid move".

Why? Because from my understanding, Macc had his eyes on Sam Darnold or Baker Mayfield. The other QB's were distant considerations. The problem is that he trades up but the move doesn't guarantee him any of his top guys. 

So when the Browns surprised everyone, outside of myself, and drafted Mayfield, Macc had to have felt the heat of potentially trading away all those picks only to be left with QB's that you could have drafted had he stayed put. 

Dave Gettleman literally saved Macc's job on draft night.

[tfine]

Any way you slice it we were getting a QB. Saquon would’ve went 1 or 2. Which leaves our choice with Baker or Darnold. No way Saquon wasn’t going top 3. So if you wanna thank anyone thank Saquon Barkley for being the beast that he is.


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[k-met57]

Did the OP break the buttfumble reaction record?

[CurtMart]

15 hours ago, GREENBEAN said:

When will you tire of creatively spinning non facts into reasons to reignite childlike feelings of waaaah waaaaaah?
I know we got the qb we wanted but what if???? Oh my god?? What if???

It’s called a gamble. And it worked. Just like going for it on fourth. Do you complain every time we go for it on fourth and make it? Oh no. But we could have lost the ball there.


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Rex Ryan n Sanchez took the Jets to two AFCCGs their first two years here. Doesn’t mean they’re playoff caliber HC/QB. They were both lucky to have a solid OL and D. Same with Mac. He’s not a good talent evaluator and have up all that for very possibly picking Josh if Giants didn’t have a brain fart. And he would’ve been ok with. To be fair, most Jets fans would’ve been content with taking Rosen at 3 if we had to pick between three QBs not named Darnold. 

 

Having said all that, I don’t even think Rosen is a bad QB. It’s too early to tell but I would pick him before I would pick any other QB Jets have had on their roaster since Favre (besides Darnold of course). And we’ve had a slew of QBs go through the revolving door. 

[Jetsfan80]

What is it with some posters around here. We can't  ever say Mac gambled and won, no, we have to imagine the worst case scenario  even when the best case actually happens

 

He drafted Bryce Petty and Christian Hackenberg, and his Plan A last year was Kirk Cousins.

 

The criticism is necessary, because the line of thinking that him landing Darnold means he’s smart at evaluating talent is what undeservedly keeps him employed at one of the 32 most important jobs in the NFL.

 

Macc homers make me want to vomit.

 

[GREENBEAN]

2 hours ago, CurtMart said:

Rex Ryan n Sanchez took the Jets to two AFCCGs their first two years here. Doesn’t mean they’re playoff caliber HC/QB. They were both lucky to have a solid OL and D. Same with Mac. He’s not a good talent evaluator and have up all that for very possibly picking Josh if Giants didn’t have a brain fart. And he would’ve been ok with. To be fair, most Jets fans would’ve been content with taking Rosen at 3 if we had to pick between three QBs not named Darnold. 

 

Having said all that, I don’t even think Rosen is a bad QB. It’s too early to tell but I would pick him before I would pick any other QB Jets have had on their roaster since Favre (besides Darnold of course). And we’ve had a slew of QBs go through the revolving door. 

I hear you, but I will hold to my point. He gambled. It was an educated gamble and it paid off.I;'ll give you that there was some luck in there too but he mad a great move.  He got the top guy on his board even if he most likely thought he was going to get Mayfield. Truth is many people had Rosen as the top QB in the whole class and a lot of people would have been very happy if Macc grabbed him. 

  Most stuff I saw at the time had Baker as the last of the big 4. I can remember thinking, the Jets are going to get cute and take Baker Mayfield and how disappointed I'd be. I warmed to Baker as the draft got closer out of emotional necessity, but In my mind I could imagine Mayfield being the exact type of hot shot the Jets would take so we could watch him crash and burn Ala Manziel while the other 3/4 QB's went on to have great careers.  I just knew we'd blow it. lol

At the time I actually liked Josh Allen the most after Darnold, who I assumed was going first overall. His arm strength is something else man. I thought it would be a good situation for him to sit behind Mccown for a season and come up slowly.  I actually thought that we should do that with Darnold too, but have changed my stance on that since. 

I actually think the Jets would have taken Allen over Rosen just like the Bills did. I don't think the Jets loved Rosen's attitude or his fragility. Too much riding on this choice to pick a divisive A$$hole with a propensity for injury.  

So either way, I will agree with you that Macc was most likely ok with landing any of the top 4 QB's last year.  But he thought he was getting Baker and was fortunate enough to get his dream date.  His aggressive move to trade up made that possible. If he waited till draft day we would not have the #3 overall pick this year for sure.  It was a great gamble at the right time and it paid off in the most favorable way possible for us. 

[NYJ1]

18 hours ago, Dcat said:

 You are not right.  Nothing I wrote "tells you" you are right.  You haven't the foggiest clue whether or not Maccagnan "knew" that Gettleman was going to take Barkley.  You claim that "everyone" "Gase" "Maccagnan" even yourself, "knew.  THe truth: You didn't know, and you presently do not know any such thing.  Pure speculation.  You reach your conclusioon because you want to believe that.  There is not one shred of evidence, including the opinion in the tweet you so cherish, to tell us whether or not Mac "knew" what Gettleman was going to do.

What you claim is a "logical deduction" is merely hopeful speculation.  The response to your assertion is "prove it, bud".  You can't.  Therefore your assertion is only speculation and is no way confirmed or valid.  

If i'm refereeing this pissing match, I think Whofan won hands down. Dcat, you're an amateur. Why not stick to Mac's results, or lack thereof, as proof of your argument? 

[long suffering jets fan]

On 3/27/2019 at 11:49 PM, jetstream23 said:

Agree with all of this.  It's risk/reward.  Hack was a horrible pick but the Jets had a HUGE need at QB and taking a swing at a developmental/reclamation project in Hack was a calculated risk that just failed miserably.  Same thing with Geno.  I can 100% fault the GM when the pick is bad and becomes a bust but I can't fault the GM for continually trying to fix the QB riddle using picks in any/all rounds.

Macc has drafted and acquired via FA how many?  6 QBs?  Fitzpatrick, Petty, Hack, McCown, Bridgewater, Darnold in a span of 4 years?  The dude had bad aim most of the time but hopefully hit the bullseye with Darnold.  Flipping Teddy for a 3rd was a nice move as well.

I agree with most of this except for one thing.  Macc's error was giving Hackenberg too long a rope.  The draft is a crapshoot for the most part, but to have Hackenberg in camp for as long as he did without a backup plan is unforgivable.  He should have realized what he had in year one and drafted Mahomes, or Watson.  With last years 2s and this years 2 we would have been a MUCH more complete team after this draft.  

[Smashmouth]

Lets all come up with some wild ass hypothetical crap then figure out a way to blame every bad scenario on Macc .. 

holy christ

[More Cowbell]

6 hours ago, Jetsfan80 said:

 

He drafted Bryce Petty and Christian Hackenberg, and his Plan A last year was Kirk Cousins.

 

The criticism is necessary, because the line of thinking that him landing Darnold means he’s smart at evaluating talent is what undeservedly keeps him employed at one of the 32 most important jobs in the NFL.

 

Macc homers make me want to vomit.

 

You want to know what it means to me. Mac had a plan, executed it and it worked. Nobody bats 1000 at his job. Yes he made some mistakes for sure but right now he is doing a good job. If he can keep this up, I'll forgive him for the early mistakes. 

[CanadaSteve]

19 hours ago, dcJet said:

Rosen has that sanchezien panic in him.  It a terminal disease for a QB. 

 

We shall see, but I am VERY glad the draft went the way it did.  Would have been fine with Baker, but I wanted NO part in Josh Rosen.  He still may work out, but he would not have worked out in NY.

[CanadaSteve]

7 hours ago, Jetsfan80 said:

 

He drafted Bryce Petty and Christian Hackenberg, and his Plan A last year was Kirk Cousins.

 

The criticism is necessary, because the line of thinking that him landing Darnold means he’s smart at evaluating talent is what undeservedly keeps him employed at one of the 32 most important jobs in the NFL.

 

Macc homers make me want to vomit.

 

This is a whole lotta WOW, and I have been criticizing many of his moves lately. 

But....WOW.

[UnitedWhofans]

7 hours ago, Jetsfan80 said:

 

He drafted Bryce Petty and Christian Hackenberg, and his Plan A last year was Kirk Cousins.

The criticism is necessary, because the line of thinking that him landing Darnold means he’s smart at evaluating talent is what undeservedly keeps him employed at one of the 32 most important jobs in the NFL.

Macc homers make me want to vomit.

 

No one said that though. You're fighting a line of thinking that really doesn't exist

It just seems another growing case of either being A or B without being in the middle

[Maxman]

The premise is silly. Darnold is the quarterback. That's what Macc gets graded on.

This whole if Christian hackenberg had balls thing, would he still be our aunt? It's silly in my book.

[dcJet]

12 hours ago, Villain The Foe said:

Of course its an indictment. 

I was one of the few people to call the trade from 6 to 3 a "stupid move".

Why? Because from my understanding, Macc had his eyes on Sam Darnold or Baker Mayfield. The other QB's were distant considerations. The problem is that he trades up but the move doesn't guarantee him any of his top guys. 

So when the Browns surprised everyone, outside of myself, and drafted Mayfield, Macc had to have felt the heat of potentially trading away all those picks only to be left with QB's that you could have drafted had he stayed put. 

Dave Gettleman literally saved Macc's job on draft night.

This was the best trade in Jets history and not a stupid move.  Macc read the board that was screaming Barkley to the Giants.   We went from Josh Allen territory to a place where we had a great chance to get one of the top 2 QB's.  I almost crashed my car when I heard the news.

Macc's stupid move was passing on Watson and Mahomes the year before.  Not this.

[Jetsbb]

17 minutes ago, Maxman said:

The premise is silly. Darnold is the quarterback. That's what Macc gets graded on.

This whole if Christian hackenberg had balls thing, would he still be our aunt? It's silly in my book.

It was a simple observation not some grand statement about Maccagnan or that he should be graded solely on that which is weirdly what people took out of it. The fact is If you told Maccagnan before the draft that Rosen would fall to 6 or trade up to get Darnold at 3 I highly suspect he would not have traded up. He traded up with the mindset he would be getting Baker or Rosen. No one even knows who he would have taken if faced with that choice.

Noticing one of the guys he was willing to give up so much for is now worth peanuts is a valid talking point. Why do so many people not get that?

[Jetsbb]

4 hours ago, Smashmouth said:

Lets all come up with some wild ass hypothetical crap then figure out a way to blame every bad scenario on Macc .. 

holy christ

There is no hypothetical. It is a fact he thought Rosen was worth the 6th overall pick and three 2nd rounders. It is also a fact the same player he thought was worth that much can be had for one 2nd rounder a year later. This isn't about what who we drafted. Its his evaluation of a player and the worth of that player a year later.

[Xtina]

On 3/27/2019 at 10:53 PM, Jetsbb said:

It has been leaked that Macagnan traded up to 3 so he could get either Darnold, Baker or Rosen. If the Giants took Darnold like a lot of people expected if he fell to them Rosen would have gone to the Jets in exchange for three 2nd rounders and the 6th overall pick. 

Leaked? Where? It’s common knowledge that Macagnan knew he would get either Darnold or Mayfield, with Mayfield being the almost certainty. 

[NYs Stepchild]

25 minutes ago, Jetsbb said:

There is no hypothetical. It is a fact he thought Rosen was worth the 6th overall pick and three 2nd rounders. It is also a fact the same player he thought was worth that much can be had for one 2nd rounder a year later. This isn't about what who we drafted. Its his evaluation of a player and the worth of that player a year later.

If you had looked up the definition you wouldn't have said it wasn't hypothetical. 

Maybe the facts are hypothetical. 

When did we draft Rosen, or say we would have drafted Rosen? 

[Jetsbb]

15 minutes ago, NYs Stepchild said:

If you had looked up the definition you wouldn't have said it wasn't hypothetical. 

Maybe the facts are hypothetical. 

When did we draft Rosen, or say we would have drafted Rosen? 

It has been reported as fact by Rich Cimini and others that Josh Allen was ranked 4th and he traded up to three so he could get either Darnold, Rosen or Baker with the assumption being Darnold goes number 1. The facts are not in dispute.

Fact1 Maccagnan valued Rosen as worth 6th overall pick plus three 2nd rounders

Fact2 Rosen is worth a year later at a significantly lower value

Question is this an indictment on Macagnan?

Not that difficult to understand people.

 

[Villain The Foe]

1 hour ago, dcJet said:

This was the best trade in Jets history and not a stupid move.  Macc read the board that was screaming Barkley to the Giants.   We went from Josh Allen territory to a place where we had a great chance to get one of the top 2 QB's.  I almost crashed my car when I heard the news.

Macc's stupid move was passing on Watson and Mahomes the year before.  Not this.

 

[Jetsbb]

1 hour ago, dcJet said:

This was the best trade in Jets history and not a stupid move.  Macc read the board that was screaming Barkley to the Giants.   We went from Josh Allen territory to a place where we had a great chance to get one of the top 2 QB's.  I almost crashed my car when I heard the news.

Macc's stupid move was passing on Watson and Mahomes the year before.  Not this.

Giants take Darnold like a lot of people expected is it the best trade in Jets history? They would have taken Rosen who fell past 6th last I checked.

[Jetsfan80]

2 hours ago, CanadaSteve said:

This is a whole lotta WOW, and I have been criticizing many of his moves lately. 

But....WOW. 

What about my post was inaccurate?

[Jetsfan80]

2 hours ago, More Cowbell said:

You want to know what it means to me. Mac had a plan, executed it and it worked. Nobody bats 1000 at his job. Yes he made some mistakes for sure but right now he is doing a good job. If he can keep this up, I'll forgive him for the early mistakes. 

I'm impressed that Macc had a plan to make our roster terrible and then fell into a QB after Heimerdinger used a prior relationship with the Colts GM to make a calculated trade over drinks. 

I'm also impressed that Macc's very next pick after Darnold was Nathan Shepherd, a 26-year old project DT.

Macc has no plan.