Is it an indictment on Maccagnan that he was willing to give up a 6th overall pick plus three 2nd rounders for Rosen?

[NYs Stepchild]

1 hour ago, Jetsbb said:

It has been reported as fact by Rich Cimini and others that Josh Allen was ranked 4th and he traded up to three so he could get either Darnold, Rosen or Baker with the assumption being Darnold goes number 1. The facts are not in dispute.

Fact1 Maccagnan valued Rosen as worth 6th overall pick plus three 2nd rounders

Fact2 Rosen is worth a year later at a significantly lower value

Question is this an indictment on Macagnan?

Not that difficult to understand people.

 

First of all none of these are facts. I heard a lot of people say things before the draft that were not true. 

The only way theories become facts is if they actually happen. We have hypothesis just so we can theorize about things that may have happened.   

If it didn't actually happen then it's hypothetical. You'd make a horrible scientist...hypothetically. 

Next statement you are assuming that Mac would be just as happy with Rosen as he was with Sam. If Mac was going to take Rosen if the draft had gone terribly wrong then that would have been the worst case scenario. He probably traded for the chance that he would get Sam or Baker. He probably does not make the trade if he knew the worst would happen...and it didn't. 

If you play the lottery it doesn't mean you're happy giving away your money. You pay for the chance. 

[UnitedWhofans]

1 hour ago, Jetsbb said:

Giants take Darnold like a lot of people expected is it the best trade in Jets history? They would have taken Rosen who fell past 6th last I checked.

Apparently the Dolphins didn’t expect it

[Smashmouth]

2 hours ago, Jetsbb said:

Giants take Darnold like a lot of people expected is it the best trade in Jets history? They would have taken Rosen who fell past 6th last I checked.

problem is most people expected the Giants to take Barkley not sure what you were listening too 

[CanadaSteve]

3 hours ago, Jetsfan80 said:

What about my post was inaccurate?

Drafting Bryce Petty with a 4th round pick was not a bad idea.  The guy played well in college, and MANY people had him as a good flyer for a fourth round pick.  You have to keep drafting QB's until you find one.  The VAST majority bust. 

Christian Hackenberg was an awful pick, and he should get raked over the coals for that.

But the guy put himself in the position to get Darnold, Mayfield, and Rosen.  We were guaranteed one of the three QB's that everyone thought would all be good starters.  And it cost three 2nds to do it, which he had the third because he was able to get us a starting WR AND a 2nd round pick for a player many thought we would be lucky to get a 3rd rounder for.  He should, and does in my book, get credit for that.

It actually doesn't burn when you give credit to Mac when he makes solid moves, just like it doesn't sting a Mac supporter for agreeing with well-deserved criticisms of some of his awful moves.

[Jetsfan80]

11 minutes ago, CanadaSteve said:

Drafting Bryce Petty with a 4th round pick was not a bad idea.  The guy played well in college, and MANY people had him as a good flyer for a fourth round pick.  You have to keep drafting QB's until you find one.  The VAST majority bust. 

Christian Hackenberg was an awful pick, and he should get raked over the coals for that.

But the guy put himself in the position to get Darnold, Mayfield, and Rosen.  We were guaranteed one of the three QB's that everyone thought would all be good starters.  And it cost three 2nds to do it, which he had the third because he was able to get us a starting WR AND a 2nd round pick for a player many thought we would be lucky to get a 3rd rounder for.  He should, and does in my book, get credit for that. 

It actually doesn't burn when you give credit to Mac when he makes solid moves, just like it doesn't sting a Mac supporter for agreeing with well-deserved criticisms of some of his awful moves. 

 

1) He didn't make the move, Heimerdinger did.  Without Heimerdinger, we don't have Darnold, period.

2) He traded up to a spot, not for a specific QB.  Would you have truly been happy with Baker Mayfield and his awful personality?  Perhaps.  And I don't buy that Josh Allen was out of the conversation too.  That would have been a disaster.

3) Its because of his awful previous decisions that he doesn't deserve the benefit of the doubt going forward.  Its incredible that he wasn't fired already.  5 years in and it took a massive free agent spending spree just to get this team looking like a .500 club.  His neglicence of the roster made it so that we already wasted Year 1 of the Darnold era, and may waste future seasons if he continues to draft poorly.

4) His bungling of the roster also gives me almost zero confidence he'll end up making the right pick at 3, OR later in the 1st if he trades down, OR with the rest of the picks.  Do you have confidence in this upcoming draft?  People keep saying Macc has "improved".  There's very little evidence of that.  The Nathan Shepherd pick just last year was simply awful.

[More Cowbell]

4 hours ago, Jetsfan80 said:

I'm impressed that Macc had a plan to make our roster terrible and then fell into a QB after Heimerdinger used a prior relationship with the Colts GM to make a calculated trade over drinks. 

I'm also impressed that Macc's very next pick after Darnold was Nathan Shepherd, a 26-year old project DT.

Macc has no plan. 

You need to stop hating him for early mistakes and look at what he did lately. Boy, you must be a joy to be in a relationship with. Hey honey, I want to talk to you about that crap you pulled 6 months ago. 

[UntouchableCrew]

I think it's pretty clear Mac traded up to 3 in order to get Baker Mayfield. That was the goal. They assumed Darnold would go #1 and they assumed the Giants would take Saquon and/or not take Baker.

The surprise was that Baker went 1, at which point we became incredibly lucky the Giants stuck with Saquon.

I'm confident Rosen was the fallback answer, but when the trade was made I don't think "that's how they valued Rosen" necessarily. They were making the move with Baker in mind.

[Jetsfan80]

5 minutes ago, More Cowbell said:

You need to stop hating him for early mistakes and look at what he did lately. Boy, you must be a joy to be in a relationship with. Hey honey, I want to talk to you about that crap you pulled 6 months ago.  

If someone cheated on you for 4 years, would you want her around for the 5th just because she decided to stop cheating and instead became completely celibate?

[Smashmouth]

1 hour ago, Jetsfan80 said:

 

1) He didn't make the move, Heimerdinger did.  Without Heimerdinger, we don't have Darnold, period.

 

Why do you keep saying this ?? Macc is responsible for the move Macc Made the move. Regardless of who's Idea it was is irrelevant ultimately Macc is responsible since hes the GM not Heimerdinger

[More Cowbell]

1 hour ago, Jetsfan80 said:

If someone cheated on you for 4 years, would you want her around for the 5th just because she decided to stop cheating and instead became completely celibate?

Ok, so now we are equating making a poor draft selection with being unfaithful in a relationship. How do you prove come up with this stuff?

[ljr]

If someone cheated on you for 4 years, would you want her around for the 5th just because she decided to stop cheating and instead became completely celibate?

How big are her boobs?


Sent from my iPhone using JetNation.com mobile app

[UnitedWhofans]

This is what you can kill Maccagnan for in this situation.

1. Trying to give Kirk Cousins a ton of money.

That's basically it. He made the trade to move up to 3, probably knowing that the Giants were going to take Barkley, because if it was obvious enough to Gase and the Dolphins that they were going to take Barkley, unless Maccagnan is literally a cadaver, then it would have been known to them, given the fact that they occupy the same circles/media area.

And people can scream and whine about it all they want. The fact is that my conclusion is based on reasonable deductions while theirs are based on insults.

You can kill Maccagnan for plenty of things. You can't kill him for this situation (except what I said) and you really can't kill him for the way this offseason has played so far. He's had a good offseason, not spectacular, but good

[Jetsfan80]

3 hours ago, Smashmouth said:

Why do you keep saying this ?? Macc is responsible for the move Macc Made the move. Regardless of who's Idea it was is irrelevant ultimately Macc is responsible since hes the GM not Heimerdinger

Simple.  Heimerdinger used a previous relationship with Ballard to make the trade happen.  If Heimerdinger isn't Macc's assistant GM, the trade never happens.

[Jetsfan80]

2 hours ago, More Cowbell said:

Ok, so now we are equating making a poor draft selection with being unfaithful in a relationship. How do you prove come up with this stuff?

You made the comparison first, only you made it personal, guessing incorrectly I'm bad in relationships.  Meanwhile I'm getting hitched to a lovely lady on April 14.

Macc sucks at his job.  Sorry not sorry.

[bla bla bla]

5 hours ago, Jetsfan80 said:

1) He didn't make the move, Heimerdinger did.  Without Heimerdinger, we don't have Darnold, period.

This is true, if Heimerdinger didn't pound the table for Hack we would likely have Watson or Mahomes. I'm more than happy with Darnold though.

[JetBlue]

Personally I would have taken Josh Allen.  I know he would have been the unpopular choice but I think will be better than Rosen.    

[More Cowbell]

1 hour ago, Jetsfan80 said:

You made the comparison first, only you made it personal, guessing incorrectly I'm bad in relationships.  Meanwhile I'm getting hitched to a lovely lady on April 14.

Macc sucks at his job.  Sorry not sorry.

Seriously, you thought I was trying to say you are in a bad relationship? Dude, have you ever heard of sarcasam?

Congrats on getting married. Marriage is great. Hope you are very happy. 

If your wife does something to piss you off, try not to hold it against her for years after as you are doing with Mac. It's a bad look.

Just a little advice.  Not saying you are a bad guy or she is a bad girl. Hope that was enough disclaimers 

[joenamathwouldn'tcry]

2 hours ago, Jetsfan80 said:

Meanwhile I'm getting hitched to a lovely lady on April 14.

Best of Luck to you and the future  "Mrs. 80", my friend.  Oh, and for the record, "celibate" is not a good thing.?

[joenamathwouldn'tcry]

2 hours ago, bla bla bla said:

This is true, if Heimerdinger didn't pound the table for Hack we would likely have Watson or Mahomes. I'm more than happy with Darnold though.

What's up with this??  How could you, of all people, sit on this information.  We have sat here through 8 Million threads, basting and roasting Maccagnan for the Hackenberg disaster, and you sat on the Kryptonite of all responses?  And you call yourself a Journalist. LOL.?

[Jetsplayer21]

10 hours ago, NYs Stepchild said:

First of all none of these are facts. I heard a lot of people say things before the draft that were not true. 

The only way theories become facts is if they actually happen. We have hypothesis just so we can theorize about things that may have happened.   

If it didn't actually happen then it's hypothetical. You'd make a horrible scientist...hypothetically. 

Next statement you are assuming that Mac would be just as happy with Rosen as he was with Sam. If Mac was going to take Rosen if the draft had gone terribly wrong then that would have been the worst case scenario. He probably traded for the chance that he would get Sam or Baker. He probably does not make the trade if he knew the worst would happen...and it didn't. 

If you play the lottery it doesn't mean you're happy giving away your money. You pay for the chance. 

Exactly.. mac wanted mayfield or darnold, with Rosen as a very unlikely/hopefully not fallback. I’m he was excited but also nervous it was going to be his number 1 choice, darnold, or Rosen. Giants could have easily picked darnold, or traded out of pick for a ton

[Maxman]

13 hours ago, Jetsbb said:

It was a simple observation not some grand statement about Maccagnan or that he should be graded solely on that which is weirdly what people took out of it. The fact is If you told Maccagnan before the draft that Rosen would fall to 6 or trade up to get Darnold at 3 I highly suspect he would not have traded up. He traded up with the mindset he would be getting Baker or Rosen. No one even knows who he would have taken if faced with that choice.

Noticing one of the guys he was willing to give up so much for is now worth peanuts is a valid talking point. Why do so many people not get that?

We have no idea what Macc thought of Rosen. He said there were three QBs he was comfortable with. Might have been Allen.

Or he bet his career on the Giants going RB at 2. Which guaranteed him darnold or Baker.

Macc got it right.

[Maxman]

Also rosen might still be good. I'd hold off on the obit.

[CanadaSteve]

7 hours ago, Jetsfan80 said:

 

1) He didn't make the move, Heimerdinger did.  Without Heimerdinger, we don't have Darnold, period.

2) He traded up to a spot, not for a specific QB.  Would you have truly been happy with Baker Mayfield and his awful personality?  Perhaps.  And I don't buy that Josh Allen was out of the conversation too.  That would have been a disaster.

3) Its because of his awful previous decisions that he doesn't deserve the benefit of the doubt going forward.  Its incredible that he wasn't fired already.  5 years in and it took a massive free agent spending spree just to get this team looking like a .500 club.  His neglicence of the roster made it so that we already wasted Year 1 of the Darnold era, and may waste future seasons if he continues to draft poorly.

4) His bungling of the roster also gives me almost zero confidence he'll end up making the right pick at 3, OR later in the 1st if he trades down, OR with the rest of the picks.  Do you have confidence in this upcoming draft?  People keep saying Macc has "improved".  There's very little evidence of that.  The Nathan Shepherd pick just last year was simply awful.

I think you are proving the point admirably.......

[Creepy Lurker]

1 minute ago, Maxman said:

We have no idea what Macc thought of Rosen. He said there were three QBs he was comfortable with. Might have been Allen.

Or he bet his career on the Giants going RB at 2. Which guaranteed him darnold or Baker.

Macc got it right.

I honestly think it was Allen. That was the #3 consolation prize if things didn’t work out. Boom or bust pick. Glad the board fell the way it did. It could have easily been Mayfield, then Giants are surprised Darnold is there and have to take him which leaves scraps for us. Thank god Gettleman is a shortsighted buffoon. 

[Jetsfan80]

Best of Luck to you and the future  "Mrs. 80", my friend.  Oh, and for the record, "celibate" is not a good thing.

Lol I know, the joke was that celibate is no better than getting cheated on, I.E. Macc hasn’t improved.

Thanks!

[slats]

3 hours ago, Jetsfan80 said:

You made the comparison first, only you made it personal, guessing incorrectly I'm bad in relationships.  Meanwhile I'm getting hitched to a lovely lady on April 14.

Macc sucks at his job.  Sorry not sorry.

Raise a glass for me that day, it’s my birthday! 

Hope you enjoy marriage more than I did!  

[Smashmouth]

7 hours ago, Jetsfan80 said:

Simple.  Heimerdinger used a previous relationship with Ballard to make the trade happen.  If Heimerdinger isn't Macc's assistant GM, the trade never happens.

sorry but this is pure nonsense ...you make it sound like Heimerdinger undermined Macc and took it upon himself to make this deal. 

Macc made the deal and Hiemerdingers relationship might have helped it along. No one in this league is giving anything away hence why we paid 3 2's to get the deal done

[Apache 51]

Protect the investment! That OL BETTER BE 1ST RATE IN 2 YEARS.....

[jamesr]

Is it an indictment on Maccagnan that he was willing to do everything he could to find a franchise QB?

No

 

[More Cowbell]

17 hours ago, Jetsfan80 said:

 

1) He didn't make the move, Heimerdinger did.  Without Heimerdinger, we don't have Darnold, period.

2) He traded up to a spot, not for a specific QB.  Would you have truly been happy with Baker Mayfield and his awful personality?  Perhaps.  And I don't buy that Josh Allen was out of the conversation too.  That would have been a disaster.

3) Its because of his awful previous decisions that he doesn't deserve the benefit of the doubt going forward.  Its incredible that he wasn't fired already.  5 years in and it took a massive free agent spending spree just to get this team looking like a .500 club.  His neglicence of the roster made it so that we already wasted Year 1 of the Darnold era, and may waste future seasons if he continues to draft poorly.

4) His bungling of the roster also gives me almost zero confidence he'll end up making the right pick at 3, OR later in the 1st if he trades down, OR with the rest of the picks.  Do you have confidence in this upcoming draft?  People keep saying Macc has "improved".  There's very little evidence of that.  The Nathan Shepherd pick just last year was simply awful.

First off, Shep was a rookie. How many rookie DT make an impact? It's  like if we draft a DT and he doesn't  have 3 tackles for loss a game and 7 sacks a season he is horrible. You can't  judge the guy until the third year.  His head was probably spinning last year  from learning the pro game and getting use to pro OL he is facing.  To be honest, I do think Shep was a bit of a reach all things considered but he was not an awful  pick. You want to rip Mac for an awful  pick it is Hackenberg. You want to rip him for a bad decision,  extending Wilk and letting Snacks go to the Giants, but spending a 3rd on shep who played under possibly  the worst HC we ever had was not awful. 

What proof is there that Heimerdinger did anything? Last I heard, Mac was the GM and the final decision  is his. 

Would I be happy with Baker? Hell yes. As far as his bad attitude,  what is so bad about showing emotion? Yes, we all prefer guys like Sam but Baker talks trash and backs it up. That would be fine with me and I bet he outgrows that. Baker and Sam are going to be top QB's but Sam will be better. I'm glad we got him. And everyone thought there was a great chance the Giants take Barkley, I was telling everyone that would happen in Jan. The Giants don't  reach or take chances. Barkley was and is the best player in that draft. Will he be the most impactful  long term, probably not, so far that is Baker but it is a very Giants type pick. Allen was never a thought  in my mind. I alsonwoukd not write him off. He can still be a solid QB and I am not happy he is on the Bills. 

As far roster decisions,  why does nobody realize  here we tanked for a high pick in the 2018 draft. We needed a high pick to get a shot at a top QB. How is this not obvious? In truth McCown is a horrible QB and we traded for him to start. You might ask why we didn't  just start Hack or Petty? Because they would not be sustainable  and the vets would not stand for it. At least Josh is an NFL vet, he just sucks. Does anything I wrote say Mac is a good GM? No, he has made horrible moves as a GM but you are killing him BS reasons and he looks like he might be turning a corner here. I am holding my opinion until we draft on Mac. If we walk away from the draft with a trade down where we get a 2nd rounder and that turns into someone like Hakeem Butler, I will be really happy. 

[Lith]

17 hours ago, UntouchableCrew said:

I think it's pretty clear Mac traded up to 3 in order to get Baker Mayfield. That was the goal. They assumed Darnold would go #1 and they assumed the Giants would take Saquon and/or not take Baker.

The surprise was that Baker went 1, at which point we became incredibly lucky the Giants stuck with Saquon.

I'm confident Rosen was the fallback answer, but when the trade was made I don't think "that's how they valued Rosen" necessarily. They were making the move with Baker in mind.

I think this is a reasonable take.  The trade was a calculated risk.  We knew we would get a QB, but we didn't know which one.  It worked out, a little bit of luck, but the deal put is in position to benefit from the way things played out on draft night.  Without a bidding war erupting if the Colts still held #3.

And if Rosen gets traded for a 2, it has absolutely nothing to do with this deal.  If the Cardinals take Murray at 1 overall, they will have devaluled Rosen by doing that.  It does not mean he is or will be a bust.

I am not a fan of Macc, but I am happy iwth the trade and not going to kill Macc for a deal that worked out.

[TuscanyTile2]

On 3/27/2019 at 10:53 PM, Jetsbb said:

It has been leaked that Macagnan traded up to 3 so he could get either Darnold, Baker or Rosen. If the Giants took Darnold like a lot of people expected if he fell to them Rosen would have gone to the Jets in exchange for three 2nd rounders and the 6th overall pick. Pretty astounding considering Cardinals are struggling to get one 2nd rounder for him a year later.

I didn't read through all the pages but I do get what you're saying (The idea that either Rosen or Allen would be his fallback - assuming Darnold/Baker were his first options) must have been comforting enough to him to risk trading 3 #2's to move up.  I'm still going to say that it is not an indictment on him though.  First off, it's way too early to judge Rosen.  It's not like if the Cardinals trade him it's necessarily because he's a bust.  They have a new HC who has said even before he got the job that Kyler Murray would be his #1 pick.  There are several teams that would love to trade for Rosen right now and, despite what we've read about it costing a 2nd rounder, I'd be very surprised if the Cardinals don't end up getting a 1st (and even a little more than that) for him.  

Regardless of the above, though, let's not kid ourselves here.  Luck (not Andrew) plays a HUGE factor in acquiring a FQB. Dan Marino fell to the Dolphins.  Brett Favre was picked in the early 30's I think.  We missed him by 1 pick.  Then he was traded after his rookie season (and it almost certainly would've been to us had Ron Wolf stayed with the Jets rather than getting hired by GB).

[bla bla bla]

16 hours ago, joenamathwouldn'tcry said:

What's up with this??  How could you, of all people, sit on this information.  We have sat here through 8 Million threads, basting and roasting Maccagnan for the Hackenberg disaster, and you sat on the Kryptonite of all responses?  And you call yourself a Journalist. LOL.?

Haha I mentioned it a few times, never made threads on it. I heard it from a reliable source but it is not common knowledge.

[Jetsfan80]

12 hours ago, Smashmouth said:

sorry but this is pure nonsense ...you make it sound like Heimerdinger undermined Macc and took it upon himself to make this deal. 

Macc made the deal and Hiemerdingers relationship might have helped it along. No one in this league is giving anything away hence why we paid 3 2's to get the deal done

Did you read the article that's been posted many times?  Heimerdinger went up to Macc and said "Hey, I might be able to make a deal with Indy for 3."  And Macc said, "Sure, go ahead.  Just don't give up our 2019 first."  That's literally the only impact Macc had on the trade.

If Heimerdinger isn't here, there's no trade.  Macc wasn't the one who initiated anything.  

[tuffhand]

1 hour ago, bla bla bla said:

Haha I mentioned it a few times, never made threads on it. I heard it from a reliable source but it is not common knowledge.

It has been mentioned before but people ignore it because it does not fit their narrative.