Article: It’s critical the New York Jets don’t fully commit to the rigid big board

[CTM]

1 hour ago, stugotz81 said:

Think Leonard Williams. New York was stocked at the 3-4 defensive end position at the time of Leo’s slippage. Muhammad Wilkerson and Sheldon Richardson were both in tow. Damon Harrison was even still in town. Despite not having a legitimate starting position for the USC product, Maccagnan tabbed him the No. 6 pick in the 2015 NFL Draft.

Has the Big Cat worked out? I don’t know; you make the call. Personally, I expect more than 17 sacks and one Pro Bowl from of a “best talent in the pool” sort of player that simply couldn’t be turned away when the position was already set in-house. Either way, it forced Richardson to hilariously attempt to play out of position along the edge for the majority of the season while making it impossible for Todd Bowles to run a legitimate defense with quick enough edges

Yeah but Mayock and Kiper had him top 3 and stuff, so tremendous value at 6. Nevermind it wasnt a need and his JAG athleticism, you had to take him there

[Pac]

4 minutes ago, CTM said:

Yeah but Mayock and Kiper had him top 3 and stuff, so tremendous value at 6. Nevermind it wasnt a need and his JAG athleticism, you had to take him there

Williams would put you to sleep with a jab then use your unconscious body to floss his teeth.

[Jetsfan80]

40 minutes ago, Beerfish said:

But...... Quinnen Leo Sheldon Quinton Muhammed Williams is a gap penetrating beast who will live in the backfield, get pressure up the middle (which is how you win in this league) and is a generational talent!  You just do not turn your back on that kind of once in a decade player! 

 

I get the DT fatigue, but in this case it would make at least a little sense to take Quinnen Williams.  If you can get the next Aaron Donald you have to consider it; it's a game changer to have a pass-rushing DT.  There's been only a few dominant ones in NFL history.  Alan Page, Warren Sapp, John Randle, Donald, Randy White...that's about it. 

Granted, if we're truly sticking with primarily a 3-4 look, it would no longer make quite as much sense.  And you cannot at all guaranteed Q will end up anything close to a dominant pass-rusher at the NFL level.  But the scarcity of the position, and how disruptive it is to a QB when you get pressure up the middle, means that I'd be willing to "wait and see" if we did take him. 

You can't let the Leonard Williams pick discourage it, either, because they're 2 different players, and Q seems to be clearly the higher-regarded prospect coming out. 

[CTM]

2 minutes ago, Pac said:

Williams would put you to sleep with a jab then use your unconscious body to floss his teeth.

I'm sure, however he's a decidedly average athlete by NFL standards.

[Jetsfan80]

4 minutes ago, CTM said:

I'm sure, however he's a decidedly average athlete by NFL standards.

Meanwhile Quinnen Williams is # 3 on the SPARQ rankings list at DT, at the 83rd percentile. 

Leonard Williams was # 42 at DT coming out of school, in the 39th percentile.

[Larz]

I don't think teams rank players outside of the top 15 or so anyway 

After that you are getting graded by round and it's a need pick 

BPA is a polite way of saying "an NFL general manager would sacrifice a family member to find out anything about another teams process, thoughts or player evaluations do you really think I'm going to tell you why we took this player?" 

 

[nyjets1969]

55 minutes ago, derp said:

 

Discusses the offensive line not being drafted but glosses over it being Maccagnan's philosophy that you draft OL late and not related to the BPA approach he's against. Despite knocking the idea that one prospect has to be the best at their position - just focuses on one offensive tackle.

How is that worked out? I remember when the Jets drafted Mangold and Fergusan in the first round it gave the Jets top 5 rushing offense and 2 championship appearances.  Drafting the OL should be the priority. The Jets should trade back and Get Garret Bradbury first he is another Nick Mangold and is the safest choice in this draft plus he fixes the most dire need a center they should then find either a pass rusher or if some top prospect OT falls in the 2nd scoop that up. They spent 50 million on Bell and they want him to run behind a makeshift  line with a career backup at center.

 

 

 

[CTM]

4 minutes ago, Jetsfan80 said:

Meanwhile Quinnen Williams is # 3 on the SPARQ rankings list at DT, at the 83rd percentile. 

Leonard Williams was # 42 at DT coming out of school, in the 39th percentile.

Hes not a workout warrior, just an old school good football player 

[Vader]

2 hours ago, stugotz81 said:

Quinnen works in the 3-4 opposite Leo, but where does that leave Henry Anderson?

in a rotation?? as there should be?

[Larz]

Oh and 

 

[freestater]

[rangerous]

first goal should be to get football players.  the coaches can find the ways to use them.  it's not like the jets can't use upgrading at nearly every position so bpa actually does make sense.  where it doesn't is in the case of like leo where they already had two other really good players at the position.  and, of course they shouldn't be using the 3 pick on non-skill position players.

[Raideraholic]

1 hour ago, derp said:

Not a fan of the article. In general, it entirely glosses over the fact that this is not a prioritization or strategy issue but an evaluation issue. The Leonard Williams pick is an excellent example. Mike Maccagnan took Leonard Williams because he thought he was going to be an elite defensive tackle. Leonard Williams is not an elite defensive tackle. Why would we prefer Maccagnan is taking the guy who he thinks is going to be the best edge rusher in that scenario? Are we getting an increased likelihood of success? If the issue is that Williams isn't good why would the best guy at a need position be good?

Cherry picking Derwin James isn't particularly compelling. If teams felt he'd be an All Pro he would have gone higher. Him going 17 isn't indicative of bad draft strategy, just bad evaluation. You can cherry pick examples of teams being unsuccessful when drafting for need, too.

He addresses Quinnen Williams being a mistake at #3 but not Allen and Bosa - who happen to be likely potential BPA's at positions of need. Mentions Williams isn't a fit with Jets personnel in a 4-3 because you'd need a NT next to Leonard Williams - Quinnen Williams played some NT at Alabama. I agree I'd rather they don't take Williams but that whole portion is sloppy.

Discusses the offensive line not being drafted but glosses over it being Maccagnan's philosophy that you draft OL late and not related to the BPA approach he's against. Despite knocking the idea that one prospect has to be the best at their position - just focuses on one offensive tackle.

Last year every Raider fan was screaming for Derwin James , the Raiders reached for the best offensive tackle( major need) on their board.  ( they traded back) . LT Kolton Miller while didn't have a great year in 2018, ( being rookie going against premier pass rushers) still showed enough with more time you feel very comfortable that  he can be a very good starting LT in the NFL.( for next 10"years). 

Everyone thinks Trent Brown was signed to play LT , and Kolton Miller moving over to Rt. ( could happen) . Well last year everyone expected Donald Penn to be the left tackle , and K Miller the Rt for the Raiders . ( before moving to LT  in 2019)      It didn't happen , and Raiders went with Kolton Miller as their starting LT.

I see Kolton Miller staying at LT, and Trent Brown playing Rt.( B Parker another rookie Offense lineman was never suppose to play but started almost every game at Rt- he needs way more developmental than Miller.

Here is the point I would pass on Probowl safety every time, if I could get a starting caliber LT .    LT is just a more premier position than safety.   So if Kolton Miller develops into that LT, than it was great draft choice, if not than you're kicking yourself for passing on all pro safety.( looks much worse the pick.

[HighPitch]

2 hours ago, Jetsfan80 said:

 

 

Interesting.  Just thought that Jonah Williams was the consensus top OL, because there weren't any franchise LT's in this draft.  If Jawaan Taylor has a chance to be a LT, I like him more than Jonah. 

it is true that jonah was the first OL guy listed in the early mocks. Now, the fl kid is

[Beerfish]

33 minutes ago, Raideraholic said:

Last year every Raider fan was screaming for Derwin James , the Raiders reached for the best offensive tackle( major need) on their board.  ( they traded back) . LT Kolton Miller while didn't have a great year in 2018, ( being rookie going against premier pass rushers) still showed enough with more time you feel very comfortable that  he can be a very good starting LT in the NFL.( for next 10"years). 

Everyone thinks Trent Brown was signed to play LT , and Kolton Miller moving over to Rt. ( could happen) . Well last year everyone expected Donald Penn to be the left tackle , and K Miller the Rt for the Raiders . ( before moving to LT  in 2019)      It didn't happen , and Raiders went with Kolton Miller as their starting LT.

I see Kolton Miller staying at LT, and Trent Brown playing Rt.( B Parker another rookie Offense lineman was never suppose to play but started almost every game at Rt- he needs way more developmental than Miller.

Here is the point I would pass on Probowl safety every time, if I could get a starting caliber LT .    LT is just a more premier position than safety.   So if Kolton Miller develops into that LT, than it was great draft choice, if not than you're kicking yourself for passing on all pro safety.( looks much worse the pick.

They are paying trent brown that kind of money to play RT?  Hootchie mama

[derp]

1 hour ago, nyjets1969 said:

How is that worked out? I remember when the Jets drafted Mangold and Fergusan in the first round it gave the Jets top 5 rushing offense and 2 championship appearances.  Drafting the OL should be the priority. The Jets should trade back and Get Garret Bradbury first he is another Nick Mangold and is the safest choice in this draft plus he fixes the most dire need a center they should then find either a pass rusher or if some top prospect OT falls in the 2nd scoop that up. They spent 50 million on Bell and they want him to run behind a makeshift  line with a career backup at center.

 

 

 

I'm not saying it's worked out - I'm saying the article got the premise wrong. Which it did.

[nyjbuddy]

22 minutes ago, Beerfish said:

They are paying trent brown that kind of money to play RT?  Hootchie mama

 

Miller will probably need more time to develop.  This off-season should allow him to get healthy and learn behind Trent Brown.

[Smashmouth]

3 hours ago, Nixhead said:

Just trade down so we can get a pass rusher and an O Lineman. It’s that simple.  Mac though hasn’t shown the ability to trade down successfully yet. There’s always a first time. 

Its not that simple really

[nyjbuddy]

1 hour ago, Raideraholic said:

Last year every Raider fan was screaming for Derwin James , the Raiders reached for the best offensive tackle( major need) on their board.  ( they traded back) . LT Kolton Miller while didn't have a great year in 2018, ( being rookie going against premier pass rushers) still showed enough with more time you feel very comfortable that  he can be a very good starting LT in the NFL.( for next 10"years). 

Everyone thinks Trent Brown was signed to play LT , and Kolton Miller moving over to Rt. ( could happen) . Well last year everyone expected Donald Penn to be the left tackle , and K Miller the Rt for the Raiders . ( before moving to LT  in 2019)      It didn't happen , and Raiders went with Kolton Miller as their starting LT.

I see Kolton Miller staying at LT, and Trent Brown playing Rt.( B Parker another rookie Offense lineman was never suppose to play but started almost every game at Rt- he needs way more developmental than Miller.

Here is the point I would pass on Probowl safety every time, if I could get a starting caliber LT .    LT is just a more premier position than safety.   So if Kolton Miller develops into that LT, than it was great draft choice, if not than you're kicking yourself for passing on all pro safety.( looks much worse the pick.

The Raiders passed on James because they had drafted Joseph in the first round just 2 years earlier.  They skipped picking a pro bowl safety for a starting right tackle.  This is not bad as they (hopefully) end up with a starting caliber player at a position they needed to fill.  This is a similar scenario that the Jets may face.  Selecting a top talent (Quinnen) at a position they had just selected a few years before (Leo).  Or selecting a left tackle that may end up playing a different position on the offensive line (Jonah Williams could slide into a guard position and Jawaan Taylor has played more right tackle than left tackle). Andre Dillard is another top left tackle prospect, but it does not seem like he could play any position other than left tackle.  Again, this is not bad.  Though everyone hopes to draft that all-pro/pro bowl player at 3, having a player whose floor may be a solid starter is much better than being a flat out bust that doesn't even have an impact before their rookie contract is up.

[Gastineau Lives]

4 hours ago, Nixhead said:

Just trade down so we can get a pass rusher and an O Lineman. It’s that simple.  Mac though hasn’t shown the ability to trade down successfully yet. There’s always a first time. 

Yeah, any pass rusher and offensive lineman will do.

[UnitedWhofans]

3 hours ago, Augustiniak said:

For all these top rated defensive players every year, has this propelled teams to the playoffs?  Or has Goff, wentz, mahomes, and offensive weapons been the drivers?  

If the jets took the best OL in the draft in the first round the next few years it would serve the team better than constantly overdrafting defensive players who don’t change games.

While I agree with that, you can’t reach. Otherwise you end up with Chance Warmack and Ereck Flowers

[JustInFudge]

More of these, lets take a player at #3 overall who isnt worthy of a #3 overall selection because of feelings and stuff. 

These takes, are hot.

[JohnnyLV]

6 hours ago, Jetsfan80 said:

If we trade down anywhere in the Top 15 and take a Center there, I will start a riot.

Late 1st/Round 2 is where we should target a C.  No earlier. 

Why? 

[greenwave81]

The author clearly ‘gets it’. Funny though, I’ve been littering threads with these exact thoughts (as have others lol) and we received more criticism than this article received...in fact, seems most here now support the thinking process. 

Move always followed the draft pyramid/hierarchy theories with interest. Tier 1 is FQB. Tier 2 is OL (mostly LT, but with the goal of protecting Tier 1), WR1 and edge rusher, or if you have these a CB1. Tier 3 contains the DTs  

Always made sense to me in our situation this year to trade down and potentially pickup OL and WR/edge guy.  Bosa’s injury history scares me, and want no part of another DT this yr. I’ve seen Taylor consistently taken in the top 6-10, so have no issue with him or Jonah if the Jets like him better. Quality OL are a need as well as edge. 

While id rather trade down, if the offers to trade down are not at least tolerable or bad, then take either the edge or beat OL...I don’t care. But NO DT!

[greenwave81]

2 hours ago, UnitedWhofans said:

While I agree with that, you can’t reach. Otherwise you end up with Chance Warmack and Ereck Flowers

Yeah lol

we didn’t reach for Leo either...as a matter of fact, the supposed best player in the draft fell to us at 6. 

How’d that work out for us?

whole Leo is a quality starter, a quality starter at DT can be had actually, more so than a quality LT, ( and for a whole hell of a lot less) in FA. 

Positional value should have at least a place in your teams draft philosophy 

[UnitedWhofans]

1 minute ago, greenwave81 said:

Yeah lol

we didn’t reach for Leo either...as a matter of fact, the supposed best player in the draft fell to us at 6. 

How’d that work out for us?

whole Leo is a quality starter, a quality starter at DT can be had actually, more so than a quality LT, ( and for a whole hell of a lot less) in FA. 

Positional value should have at least a place in your teams draft philosophy 

That's fine. But nevertheless, you can't reach that high

[Joe W. Namath]

Mac has shown he doesnt have the balls to do this.

If he did, you take tj hockenson who is an elite pass catcher and blocker.

[greenwave81]

1 minute ago, UnitedWhofans said:

That's fine. But nevertheless, you can't reach that high

So....3 is that much different than 6 in draft terms? Don’t understand your point...who determines if the player was a ‘reach’ anyway? Based off combine measurements?  Talking heads?  One persons definition of ‘reach’ will be different than another’s...and if the player you draft works out, what was a ‘reach’ On draft night becomes a shrewd move. I could care less what Kiper has to say draft night. 

Other than last year it seems to me the NYJ have ignored every concept of positional value and gone ‘BPA ‘ getting let’s say quality starters but they are at positions that are nice to have (S,DT) rather than need to have (LT, WR1, edge)....

[greenwave81]

8 minutes ago, Joe W. Namath said:

Mac has shown he doesnt have the balls to do this.

If he did, you take tj hockenson who is an elite pass catcher and blocker.

If Hockenson turns into Gronk part II, that’s great...and I’d rather another weapon for Sam than a dang DT....but otherwise at this stage of our team needs Hockenson would be a ‘nice thing to have’ rather than a need as Herndon showed pretty well last year. I agree it’s debatable  

We need a LT, WR1 and an edge...choose among these please

[UnitedWhofans]

2 minutes ago, greenwave81 said:

So....3 is that much different than 6 in draft terms? Don’t understand your point...who determines if the player was a ‘reach’ anyway? Based off combine measurements?  Talking heads?  One persons definition of ‘reach’ will be different than another’s...and if the player you draft works out, what was a ‘reach’ On draft night becomes a shrewd move. I could care less what Kiper has to say draft night. 

Other than last year it seems to me the NYJ have ignored every concept of positional value and gone ‘BPA ‘ getting let’s say quality starters but they are at positions that are nice to have (S,DT) rather than need to have (LT, WR1, edge)....

I don't think WR1 fits with those but that's another story....

You preferably want need and BPA to merge. The Jets have it here with the pass rusher market. In terms of the Jets OL this particular year, the person you want to draft in the top ten is a person who you start right away. In terms of OL needs, the Jets biggest need is at C. They have starters at every other spot. C seems to be the lowest level OL as C don't really get drafted that high.

I dont want to draft a LT with #3 and then have him sit behind Beachum. That doesn't work.

[UnitedWhofans]

17 minutes ago, Joe W. Namath said:

Mac has shown he doesnt have the balls to do this.

 

Well what takes more balls, trading up or down?

[Joe W. Namath]

9 minutes ago, greenwave81 said:

If Hockenson turns into Gronk part II, that’s great...and I’d rather another weapon for Sam than a dang DT....but otherwise at this stage of our team needs Hockenson would be a ‘nice thing to have’ rather than a need as Herndon showed pretty well last year. I agree it’s debatable  

We need a LT, WR1 and an edge...choose among these please

Herdon is athletic.  You can flex him out.  Hockenson would not effect herdons playing time at all.  You run the offense like the pats did when they had gronk/hernandez.

[UnitedWhofans]

The difference between when Macc drafted Leo and Adams vs now is that those were positions that the Jets actually had open.

The Jets already have Steve Mclendon at that nose tackle position. I dont know if Q. Williams or Ed Oliver are true nose tackles

[Jack Straw]

Robby Sabo's YouTube videos are excellent. This guy is better than any Jets beat writer, by a country mile.

[NYJ1]

There's way too many divas on this site.