DT fatigue and Leonard Williams are not good reasons to avoid taking Quinnen Williams OR Ed Oliver

[RutgersJetFan]

I really can't believe we're sitting here and talking about this yet again. Another year of this? Seriously? Another year of sitting through a sh*tty season and all we get out of it is interior DL? You people are Stockholm Syndromed the **** out. Groundhog's Day on steroids. Except in this instance there's no sex with Andie MacDowell at the end of it.

[RutgersJetFan]

5 minutes ago, Jetsfan80 said:

I just want a quality player at a premium position.  A pass-rushing DT is a premium position.  Quinnen Williams and Ed Oliver belong in the conversation.  We're not talking about run-stopping 3-4 DE's here.  We're talking about extremely athletic pass rushers, one of which (Oliver) whose projected SPARQ score closely mirrors Aaron Donald.

I'm still probably favoring Josh Allen or trading down as the top 2 options, however.

Sparq schmarq. Predictive power and empirical evidence are two very different things. There's like 2 legit pass rushing DT's in existence. They are unicorns. The actual likelihood of any of these guys turning into Aaron Donald is dogsh*t. The only reason we're even talking about taking any of these guys at 3 is because this draft blows balls.

[CTM]

1 hour ago, TeddEY said:

But, this should be a reminder to everyone who's just waiting for Leonard Williams potential to be unlocked with better coaching.  He's a below-average NFL athlete, as you state.  The ceiling simply isn't that high.

Nobody really willing to engage with that point .

[CTM]

7 minutes ago, Jetsfan80 said:

I just want a quality player at a premium position.  A pass-rushing DT is a premium position.  Quinnen Williams and Ed Oliver belong in the conversation.  We're not talking about run-stopping 3-4 DE's here.  We're talking about extremely athletic pass rushers, one of which (Oliver) whose projected SPARQ score closely mirrors Aaron Donald.

I'm still probably favoring Josh Allen or trading down as the top 2 options, however.

I still want to move down and grab offense. But ftr, I'd pick Oliver over bosa, allen or williams

[jetsons]

1 hour ago, Scoop24 said:

Might as well add some film work to already terrific thread kids a Monster

 

I Still Prefer This Guy...  

 

 

[GaryM]

I just have one question here,,,If Leonard Williams was # 42 among DT's, checking in at the 39th percentile among NFL counterparts, how in the hell was he the BPA with the #6 pick?

[Losmeister]

very big young man...  very soft looking arms there. no way.

[BornJetsFan1983]

2 hours ago, Jetsfan80 said:

If we choose to "stick and pick" at 3, Quinnen Williams is a solid option, even if we stick with primarily a 3-4 look. 

And Leonard Williams is not a good comparison at all.  Why?  Simple.  Athleticism.

In the 2015 SPARQ rankings, Leonard Williams was # 42 among DT's, checking in at the 39th percentile among NFL counterparts.  Basically, he was a below average athlete coming out of school based on metrics that are important (like the 3-cone drill).

Quinnen Williams, meanwhile, is # 3 among DT's in the SPARQ rankings, checking in at the 83rd percentile among NFL counterparts.  He's close to being an elite athlete already.  And he hasn't even turned 22 yet. 

Don't let DT fatigue or Leonard Williams cloud your view of Quinnen Williams.  There's only been a handful of dominant pass-rushing DT's in NFL history.  Warren Sapp, John Randle, Alan Page, Aaron Donald and Randy White come to mind.  If there's a good chance Quinnen can enter a conversation like that, you have to consider taking him at # 3 overall.  Nothing generates more problems for an opposing QB  than pressure up the middle.  Collapsing the pocket and preventing a QB from being able to step up - especially the non-mobile QB's - can completely disrupt gameplans. 

I'm on board with Josh Allen, because he's the only elite pass-rushing 3-4 OLB prospect coming out.  But I might be coming around more to the Quinnen Williams argument at this point. 

EDIT:  Ed Oliver projects to be even higher than Quinnen Williams in the SPARQ scores.  Add him to the conversation at # 3 as well. 

I love the move back and take say Oliver and lineman...im not sold on Allen or Bosa as being all the much better than the other guys, good if we take them but smarter would be turning it into more people to play position we need.

[Jetsfan80]

4 minutes ago, GaryM said:

I just have one question here,,,If Leonard Williams was # 42 among DT's, checking in at the 39th percentile among NFL counterparts, how in the hell was he the BPA with the #6 pick?

Exactly.  It was a poor line of thinking that led to him achieving that high of a spot on Macc's board (or anyone else's).

[Jetsfan80]

10 minutes ago, RutgersJetFan said:

Sparq schmarq. Predictive power and empirical evidence are two very different things. There's like 2 legit pass rushing DT's in existence. They are unicorns. The actual likelihood of any of these guys turning into Aaron Donald is dogsh*t. The only reason we're even talking about taking any of these guys at 3 is because this draft blows balls. 

So you don't think SPARQ has predictive power when combined with college production/traditional scouting?

[CTM]

5 minutes ago, GaryM said:

I just have one question here,,,If Leonard Williams was # 42 among DT's, checking in at the 39th percentile among NFL counterparts, how in the hell was he the BPA with the #6 pick?

The same reason Hackenberg was selected in Rd 2. Old school scouts are flagrantly innumerate

[jetsons]

20 minutes ago, CTM said:

Another thing,  I saw his 10 yard split at 1.63 from the Houston Chronicle

So besides hitting Waldo Explosive power #

He's also got better "twitch #" than Allen despite being 25 lbs heavier and 3 inches shorter. Bowling ball w/butcher knives 

Oliver

SS 4.19

3-cone: 7.15

10-yd split 1.63

twitch .98

Allen

SS 4.23

3-cone: 7.15

10-yd split 1.61

twitch: 1.02

DO NOT use that term when describing a future NYJ prospect.... that is all.

[dbatesman]

2 minutes ago, CTM said:

The same reason Hackenberg was selected in Rd 2. Old school scouts are flagrantly innumerate

Just fair warning: I'm definitely stealing this.

[Jet Nut]

Wait so now LW isn't athletic and QW had soft arms?  Muscular looking arms means strength or something now?

 

[Miss Lonelyhearts]

2 minutes ago, dbatesman said:

Just fair warning: I'm definitely stealing this.

Already stolen obv

[#27TheDominator]

20 minutes ago, CTM said:

Another thing,  I saw his 10 yard split at 1.63 from the Houston Chronicle

So besides hitting Waldo Explosive power #

He's also got better "twitch #" than Allen despite being 25 lbs heavier and 3 inches shorter. Bowling ball w/butcher knives

Oliver

SS 4.19

3-cone: 7.15

10-yd split 1.63

twitch .98

Allen

SS 4.23

3-cone: 7.15

10-yd split 1.61

twitch: 1.02

Isn't there usually more of a correlation between 3 cone and shuttle?   He still more than checks all the boxes.

 

[kdels62]

2 minutes ago, Jet Nut said:

Wait so now LW isn't athletic and QW had soft arms?  Muscular looking arms means strength or something now?

 

Both of those things are true. But I also don’t think anyone is actually judging QW’s arms. 

[Jet Nut]

5 minutes ago, kdels62 said:

Both of those things are true. But I also don’t think anyone is actually judging QW’s arms. 

Both of these things are wrong.

Read it, not making it up he said, copy and pasted:

Quote

very soft looking arms there. no way.

 

Strength isnt determined by how defined someones arms are.  

[ZachEY]

24 minutes ago, CTM said:

Nobody really willing to engage with that point .

Because he's the BEST PLAYER IN THE DRAFT AND I CANT BELIEVE HE FELL TO US and no one will hear anything to the contrary.

[CTM]

4 minutes ago, Miss Lonelyhearts said:

Already stolen obv

Lol, out of curiosity I actually just phrase searched it and only got 2 hits for the exact phrase which is a surprise

 

[kdels62]

2 minutes ago, Jet Nut said:

Both of these things are wrong.

Read it, not making it up he said, copy and pasted:

 

Strength isnt determined by how defined someones arms are.  

I’m pretty sure that’s a joke. Like it’s pretty hilarious.

As for Leo...

compared to me he’s really athletic, compared to average DTs in the nfl he’s not.

[RutgersJetFan]

17 minutes ago, Jetsfan80 said:

So you don't think SPARQ has predictive power when combined with college production/traditional scouting?

Not at all. SPARQ is lovely. I wish there was a peanut butter named after the number so I could spread it on sandwiches and myself at the same time. 

[CTM]

4 minutes ago, TeddEY said:

Because he's the BEST PLAYER IN THE DRAFT AND I CANT BELIEVE HE FELL TO US and no one will hear anything to the contrary.

Yes, like Adams and Darnold.. (and this year Bosa who will OMG fall to us imo)

[ZachEY]

8 minutes ago, Jet Nut said:

Both of these things are wrong.

Read it, not making it up he said, copy and pasted:

 

Strength isnt determined by how defined someones arms are.  

By NFL standards, Leonard Williams is an average to below-average athlete.

[ZachEY]

2 minutes ago, CTM said:

Yes, like Adams and Darnold.. (and this year Bosa who will OMG fall to us imo)

The good news is, there's a chance Darnold is actually good.

[JustInFudge]

2 hours ago, RoadFan said:

I edited the post quickly to say the Buckeyes suck as Jets.

Mangold

[CTM]

Just now, TeddEY said:

By NFL standards, Leonard Williams is not a great athlete.

Haha, we just had this convo in another thread. As a retort, Pac pointed out how easily LW could beat me up. What a goon, lol

[ZachEY]

3 minutes ago, CTM said:

Yes, like Adams and Darnold.. (and this year Bosa who will OMG fall to us imo)

What's your top 3?

[ZachEY]

Just now, CTM said:

Haha, we just had this convo in another thread. As a retort, Pac pointed out how easily LW could beat me up. What a goon, lol

Is it really that hard to separate the notion of average athlete compared to the general population and average athlete when compared to professional athletes?

[CTM]

1 minute ago, TeddEY said:

The good news is, there's a chance Darnold is actually good.

For sure, I  think it's going to happen again where the post draft perception around here is that other teams screw up is our gain, which was just as true last year with Cleveland/Giants passing on Darnold as it was in 15 and 17

[cant wait]

ed oliver is going to be an edge defender in NFL

[CTM]

3 minutes ago, TeddEY said:

Is it really that hard to separate the notion of average athlete compared to the general population and average athlete when compared to professional athletes?

For Pac, apparently so. Not only that, he seems to correlate the ability to quickly beat up middle aged white collar guys with NFL success. Perhaps they should add a combine drill on time to KO nerds so guys like Pac and Macc can properly evaluate the players.

[JustInFudge]

I personally think if the Jets cant trade back and have to stick and pick, that they should reach for an offensive player at #3 who shouldnt be selected at #3 because fans think that solves all the Jets problems on offense and are fatigued with Defense in the 1st round.

That seems logical and wise.  

It's like, why ever take a USC QB in the top 5 ever again after Sanchez?  It's so tiring. 

[Ohio State NY Jets fan]

42 minutes ago, GaryM said:

I just have one question here,,,If Leonard Williams was # 42 among DT's, checking in at the 39th percentile among NFL counterparts, how in the hell was he the BPA with the #6 pick?

I posted this in the other thread but it answer this question too;

Leo was the first DT in a while to run a sub 5 second 40 - comparisons to Sapp and Seymour, top athlete coming out, regressed with Todd+Kacy 

 

He was a safe pick when the Jets needed a safe pick, just has not lived up to the hype - is that his fault or the hypers fault?

https://bleacherreport.com/articles/2374633-is-leonard-williams-the-perfect-nfl-draft-prospect

[UntouchableCrew]

34 minutes ago, GaryM said:

I just have one question here,,,If Leonard Williams was # 42 among DT's, checking in at the 39th percentile among NFL counterparts, how in the hell was he the BPA with the #6 pick?

Presumably because a lot of NFL evaluators don't use SPARQ? If you read draft profiles of him, they literally reference "freakish athleticism."

It's strange.

STRENGTHS

 Supremely gifted interior lineman with length, athleticism and elite power. Lined up just about everywhere along the line at one point or another. Able to jolt offensive linemen with powerful hands and is extremely hard to redirect for offensive linemen once he gets going downhill. Explosive hip snap to leverage blockers and is rarely moved from his gap. Often a read-and-react two-gapper and plays peek-a-boo with running backs while discarding blockers at will when he's ready to tackle. Too much play strength for zone blockers to cross-face him. Fires out with low pad level when playing the run and is difficult to submarine on short yardage. Has feet and brute force to recover and get back into a play after being beaten early. Dangerous pass rusher from twist game, showing big closing burst. Effort rusher who will eventually get home if single-blocked. Beginning to develop spin move as pass-rush counter. Showed intriguing potential as a pass-rushing end in space. Frame able to hold more weight and muscle.

 

WEAKNESSES

 Is a little late out of his stance off the snap. Must learn to consistently fire hands out as weapons. Slow to transition from run stopper to pass rusher when teams throw on first down. Pad level rises and legs straighten out as pass rusher. Base will narrow, slowing momentum and limiting full potential of his bull rush. Hasn't learned to set up offensive linemen or string together pass-rush moves yet. Doesn't always play to capacity and pursuit is lacking when play heads away from him. Still very raw. Wins with physical tools over skill.

DRAFT PROJECTION

 Round 1 (top three)

SOURCES TELL US

 "You can't over-think this one. It doesn't matter how raw he is because he's got freakish qualities that are rare for men his size. I think he has a chance to be as good as Kevin Williams. That's his comp." -- NFC Director of Scouting

NFL COMPARISON

 Kevin Williams

BOTTOM LINE

 Enormously powerful defensive lineman. Has the look and feel of the biggest, strongest kid on the playground but hasn't figured out how to unlock his natural gifts and consistently dominate the rest of the kids on the playground just yet. Williams can play in an odd or even front, and is able to hold the point as a two-gapper or disrupt upfield. With coaching and more experience, Williams should be able to match the athleticism with the power and become a consistent Pro Bowler with a ceiling that goes even higher than that.