DT fatigue and Leonard Williams are not good reasons to avoid taking Quinnen Williams OR Ed Oliver

[HighPitch]

2 hours ago, RoadFan said:

I have Ohio State fatigue. 

Bosa makes me nervous, not so much as player, but illogically because of his school.

Darron Lee.  Devin Smith.  Gholston.  Schlegel.  Nugent.

Even the 1st round tackles the Jets took before my time, Chris Ward and Dave Foley, weren't any good... were they?

Aside from Mangold, the Buckeyes suck as Jets.

I agree ohio sucks. Plus he sat out.... who does that?

[Miss Lonelyhearts]

4 minutes ago, UntouchableCrew said:

Presumably because a lot of NFL evaluators don't use SPARQ? If you read draft profiles of him, they literally reference "freakish athleticism."

It's strange.

STRENGTHS

 Supremely gifted interior lineman with length, athleticism and elite power. Lined up just about everywhere along the line at one point or another. Able to jolt offensive linemen with powerful hands and is extremely hard to redirect for offensive linemen once he gets going downhill. Explosive hip snap to leverage blockers and is rarely moved from his gap. Often a read-and-react two-gapper and plays peek-a-boo with running backs while discarding blockers at will when he's ready to tackle. Too much play strength for zone blockers to cross-face him. Fires out with low pad level when playing the run and is difficult to submarine on short yardage. Has feet and brute force to recover and get back into a play after being beaten early. Dangerous pass rusher from twist game, showing big closing burst. Effort rusher who will eventually get home if single-blocked. Beginning to develop spin move as pass-rush counter. Showed intriguing potential as a pass-rushing end in space. Frame able to hold more weight and muscle.

 

WEAKNESSES

 Is a little late out of his stance off the snap. Must learn to consistently fire hands out as weapons. Slow to transition from run stopper to pass rusher when teams throw on first down. Pad level rises and legs straighten out as pass rusher. Base will narrow, slowing momentum and limiting full potential of his bull rush. Hasn't learned to set up offensive linemen or string together pass-rush moves yet. Doesn't always play to capacity and pursuit is lacking when play heads away from him. Still very raw. Wins with physical tools over skill.

DRAFT PROJECTION

 Round 1 (top three)

SOURCES TELL US

 "You can't over-think this one. It doesn't matter how raw he is because he's got freakish qualities that are rare for men his size. I think he has a chance to be as good as Kevin Williams. That's his comp." -- NFC Director of Scouting

NFL COMPARISON

 Kevin Williams

BOTTOM LINE

 Enormously powerful defensive lineman. Has the look and feel of the biggest, strongest kid on the playground but hasn't figured out how to unlock his natural gifts and consistently dominate the rest of the kids on the playground just yet. Williams can play in an odd or even front, and is able to hold the point as a two-gapper or disrupt upfield. With coaching and more experience, Williams should be able to match the athleticism with the power and become a consistent Pro Bowler with a ceiling that goes even higher than that.

 

The numbers are what they are and freakish athleticism is just words. This is the flagrant innumeracy woodstock was talking about.

[choon328]

1 hour ago, Jetsfan80 said:

Because he isn't the kind of athlete Quinnen is.  If Quinnen lives up to the hype, he will likely be nearly as good as a 3-4 DE as he will be a 4-3 DT. 

They are actually very similar coming out of college:

Quinnen

6'3" 303 lbs

Arms: 33 1/4

Hands: 9 5/8

40: 4.83

Vertical: 30.5

Broad Jump: 112

Leo

6'5" 302 lbs

Arms: 34 5/8

Hands: 10 5/8

40: 4.97

Vertical: 29.5

Broad Jump: 106

 

These two are as similar as can be athletically. Most scouts thought Leo was the best player in the draft that year as well.

[Jetsfan80]

Just now, choon328 said:

They are actually very similar coming out of college:

Quinnen

6'3" 303 lbs

Arms: 33 1/4

Hands: 9 5/8

40: 4.83

Vertical: 30.5

Broad Jump: 112

Leo

6'5" 302 lbs

Arms: 34 5/8

Hands: 10 5/8

40: 4.97

Vertical: 29.5

Broad Jump: 106

 

These two are as similar as can be athletically. Most scouts thought Leo was the best player in the draft that year as well.

You're missing the 3 cone score and several other crucial metrics. 

[RutgersJetFan]

whats his leadership of men score

[JohnnyLV]

No just no. Picking DT does not improve this team. Trade down is the only option. QW has gigantic bust potential.

Jets are idiots if they choose this guy

 

[choon328]

2 minutes ago, Jetsfan80 said:

You're missing the 3 cone score and several other crucial metrics. 

I would love to have put those in but Quinnen didn't perform the 3 cone drill or 20 yard shuttle at the combine.

Quinnen 10 Yard Split: 1.67

Leo: 1.72

[CTM]

3 hours ago, TeddEY said:

What's your top 3?

Honestly all I've looked into was Bosa, Allen initially as likely picks and most recently Williams and Oliver.  The only guy I like is  Oliver. My preferred route is to trade down and grab OT and offense. If we could come away with Taylor/Williams and maybe AJ Brown with a presumed 2nd rd pick and next year's 1 that would be a great haul

[Jet Nut]

36 minutes ago, kdels62 said:

I’m pretty sure that’s a joke. Like it’s pretty hilarious.

As for Leo...

compared to me he’s really athletic, compared to average DTs in the nfl he’s not.

Which part did you find comical?

And, this should be great, how do you know and how did you compare his athleticism to other DTs the league?
LOL?  Its bad enough when people think they know how to draft but now the strength coaches etc.

Reminds me when before we cried over Mangold being released for years we heard he was fat and out of shape.  

Please stop making stuff up to back up that you dont like him.  He was drafted as a big man who was extremely athletic.  Now>  Only 17 sacks?  Hes not athletic, LOL

[Jet Nut]

25 minutes ago, UntouchableCrew said:

STRENGTHS

 Supremely gifted interior lineman with length, athleticism and elite power. Lined up just about everywhere along the line at one point or another. Able to jolt offensive linemen with powerful hands and is extremely hard to redirect for offensive linemen once he gets going downhill. Explosive hip snap to leverage blockers and is rarely moved from his gap. Often a read-and-react two-gapper and plays peek-a-boo with running backs while discarding blockers at will when he's ready to tackle. Too much play strength for zone blockers to cross-face him. Fires out with low pad level when playing the run and is difficult to submarine on short yardage. Has feet and brute force to recover and get back into a play after being beaten early. Dangerous pass rusher from twist game, showing big closing burst. Effort rusher who will eventually get home if single-blocked. Beginning to develop spin move as pass-rush counter. Showed intriguing potential as a pass-rushing end in space. Frame able to hold more weight and muscle.

DRAFT PROJECTION

 Round 1 (top three)

This screams that hes not athletic.

Someone a year ago called him fat, slow and soft.

You really dont need to see a player, you just pull every cliche for a bust and just jot it down.

He is what he is but hes not what a handful are claiming they know he is.

[Jet Nut]

15 minutes ago, johnnysd said:

No just no. Picking DT does not improve this team. Trade down is the only option. QW has gigantic bust potential.

Jets are idiots if they choose this guy

 

Youre sure fire, cant bust pick?

[ZachEY]

7 minutes ago, Jet Nut said:

And, this should be great, how do you know and how did you compare his athleticism to other DTs the league?

With SPARQ, as one option.  They literally do exactly that.

It doesn't mean that most athletic = best football player.  But, it's about as good a measure of comparative athleticism as there is.

[Jet Nut]

5 minutes ago, TeddEY said:

With SPARQ.  They literally do exactly that.

It doesn't mean that most athletic = best football player.  But, it's about as good a measure of comparative athleticism as there is.

And what we have here are two DLs, each having been called athletic by scouts whos numbers are pretty much identical.  Which is why I asked how he came to his conclusions.  

QW was said to have blown up the combine, blew away the other DL and really helped his case and then we see LW put up the same numbers, some better, when he was headed to the draft.

 

[ZachEY]

1 minute ago, Jet Nut said:

And what we have here are two DLs, each having been called athletic by scouts whos numbers are pretty much identical.  Which is why I asked how he came to his conclusions.  

 QW was said to have blown up the combine, blew away the other DL and then we see LW put up the same numbers when he was headed to the draft.

The numbers listed above aren't that close.  1 inch of vertical leap is meaningfully different, I'd think.  And there are others.  It's the NFL, these fractions matter.  The numbers above are also far from all the numbers taken into consideration.  Ultimately, they were both put in the same formula, and QW got in the low 80s while LW got in the high 30s.  Donald was in the high 90s.  The expectation is that when all the data is in on Oliver, he'll be at the top of that list too.

[JustInFudge]

5 minutes ago, TeddEY said:

The numbers listed above aren't that close.  1 inch of vertical leap is meaningfully different, I'd think.  And there are others.  It's the NFL, these fractions matter.  The numbers above are also far from all the numbers taken into consideration.  Ultimately, they were both put in the same formula, and QW got in the low 80s while LW got in the high 30s.  Donald was in the high 90s.  The expectation is that when all the data is in on Oliver, he'll be at the top of that list too.

1 inch?  Lol dude...

[Darnold Schwarzenegger]

DT fatigue and Leonard Williams are not good reasons to avoid taking Quinnen Williams OR Ed Oliver

It's a damn good reason to actually. Why not try to focus on other areas of the team

Maybe next year we should draft another safety with our top 10 pick. 

[kdels62]

29 minutes ago, Jet Nut said:

Which part did you find comical?

And, this should be great, how do you know and how did you compare his athleticism to other DTs the league?
LOL?  Its bad enough when people think they know how to draft but now the strength coaches etc.

Reminds me when before we cried over Mangold being released for years we heard he was fat and out of shape.  

Please stop making stuff up to back up that you dont like him.  He was drafted as a big man who was extremely athletic.  Now>  Only 17 sacks?  Hes not athletic, LOL

I mean if you do a tiny bit of research or even look in this thread you’ll have answers. But I’ll tell you a little secret, the combine exists to measure athleticism amongst prospective NFL players. The combine is a yearly event run by the NFL and is held in Indianapolis. 

Or you can continue to condescend and be a homer. 

[ZachEY]

12 minutes ago, JiF said:

1 inch?  Lol dude...

Is .1 on a 40-yard-dash not also meaningfully different?

Why is it, when plugged into the same formula, that QW is so much higher than LW in SPARQ?  These differences matter.

[Paradis]

2 hours ago, Jetsfan80 said:

A pass-rushing DT is a premium position because of its scarcity. 

It's right up there with traditional EDGE in value.  If not higher. 

Fletcher Cox makes $17.1M per season.  Geno Atkins makes $16.3M.  And Donald should make more than both. 

If Quinnen is even as good as even Gerald McCoy ($13.6M per season), he makes a compelling case for the # 3 pick. 

Appreciate all the hard work you  put into this thread, buddy… But no. Hell no.

It’s not even about whether he’s good anymore. But what moves the needle.

Defensive tackles like Suh (which is already more praise than he deserves) end up in the free agency market all the time. There’s nothing to suggest Williams won’t be just another one of those. He’s not generational talent that transcends the position 

[JustInFudge]

36 minutes ago, choon328 said:

They are actually very similar coming out of college:

Quinnen

6'3" 303 lbs

Arms: 33 1/4

Hands: 9 5/8

40: 4.83

Vertical: 30.5

Broad Jump: 112

Leo

6'5" 302 lbs

Arms: 34 5/8

Hands: 10 5/8

40: 4.97

Vertical: 29.5

Broad Jump: 106

 

These two are as similar as can be athletically. Most scouts thought Leo was the best player in the draft that year as well.

OMG da GAP

[JustInFudge]

2 minutes ago, TeddEY said:

Is .1 on a 40-yard-dash not also meaningfully different?

Why is it, when plugged into the same formula, that QW is so much higher than LW in SPARQ?  These differences matter.

.1 - no it’s not 

 

[RobR]

5 minutes ago, kdels62 said:

I mean if you do a tiny bit of research or even look in this thread you’ll have answers. But I’ll tell you a little secret, the combine exists to measure athleticism amongst prospective NFL players. The combine is a yearly event run by the NFL and is held in Indianapolis. 

Or you can continue to condescend and be a homer. 

[Paradis]

1 hour ago, RutgersJetFan said:

. There's like 2 legit pass rushing DT's in existence. They are unicorns. 

Yes. 

Lord yes. 

End thread . End convo. End life. 

The list of “otherworldly disruptive” DTs that have gone in the 1st and wound playing for 2-3 teams is looooooooooooooong 

 

[ZachEY]

7 minutes ago, JiF said:

.1 - no it’s not 

  

Ok, if these differences are insignificant, again, why is QW so much higher than LW in SPARQ?

Or, is SPARQ just completely flawed?

[Jet Nut]

29 minutes ago, TeddEY said:

The numbers listed above aren't that close.  1 inch of vertical leap is meaningfully different, I'd think.  And there are others.  It's the NFL, these fractions matter.  The numbers above are also far from all the numbers taken into consideration.  Ultimately, they were both put in the same formula, and QW got in the low 80s while LW got in the high 30s.  Donald was in the high 90s.  The expectation is that when all the data is in on Oliver, he'll be at the top of that list too.

Youre kidding right?

The numbers are close as can be.  So close that the differences are probably differ more from whos doing the testing.  There just isnt enough of a difference to get crazy over and say, one is athletic, the other isnt.

Especially when not only do the numbers not say it, the scouts didnt say it either.

Thats all. 

[JohnnyLV]

43 minutes ago, Jet Nut said:

Youre sure fire, cant bust pick?

Jawan Taylor...he's rated around 6 to 8 in most rankings and I think he is a 10 year guy. Prefer to trade down and get a center too

[Miss Lonelyhearts]

4 minutes ago, TeddEY said:

Ok, if these differences are insignificant, again, why is QW so much higher than LW in SPARQ?

Or, is SPARQ just completely flawed?

Two inches of height at the same weight is a meaningful difference in mass.

[RutgersJetFan]

4 minutes ago, johnnysd said:

Jawan Taylor...he's rated around 6 to 8 in most rankings and I think he is a 10 year guy. 

Edge rushers or Taylor seem like the way to go. A blindside blocker worth taking at 6 is worth taking at 3. Especially in this draft which seems like a complete crapshoot after Bosa. The other 9 guys rounding out the top 10 have been interchangeable as ****. There are no can't miss guys, and the numbers also say there are no can't miss guys, meaning it's preposterous to draft anything other than a premium offensive position like WR or OT or an edge rusher. Those are the only 3 things the Jets have any business in drafting, and to be honest an edge rusher is even hard to swallow considering how much f'ing defense the Jets have drafted the past 15 years.

[Miss Lonelyhearts]

3 minutes ago, Jet Nut said:

Youre kidding right?

The numbers are close as can be.  So close that the differences are probably differ more from whos doing the testing.  There just isnt enough of a difference to get crazy over and say, one is athletic, the other isnt.

Especially when not only do the numbers not say it, the scouts didnt say it either.

Thats all. 

You don’t understand numbers and you don’t know that you don’t understand numbers.

[Augustiniak]

8 minutes ago, Paradis said:

Yes. 

Lord yes. 

End thread . End convo. End life. 

The list of “otherworldly disruptive” DTs that have gone in the 1st and wound playing for 2-3 teams is looooooooooooooong 

 

Classic scouts like mccagnan are stuck in the mindset of what DTs used to be so when they see guys like Oliver and Q they think they’re going to dominate in the nfl.  Yet every team needs OL to be able to block all these DTs, yet the OL usually aren’t rated as highly.  Then these same teams pay their qbs an absurd amount of money.  I’d rather invest premium picks in the best OL who protect my franchise qb than on DTs who maybe get 8-10 sacks a year.

[Jet Nut]

16 minutes ago, kdels62 said:

I mean if you do a tiny bit of research or even look in this thread you’ll have answers. But I’ll tell you a little secret, the combine exists to measure athleticism amongst prospective NFL players. The combine is a yearly event run by the NFL and is held in Indianapolis. 

Or you can continue to condescend and be a homer. 

Good answer, good answer.  

I didnt condescend anyone. I asked you where and how you came to your conclusions and you found that problematic. 

OK.  That screams condescending and even more so homerism.  

[Jet Nut]

7 minutes ago, Miss Lonelyhearts said:

You don’t understand numbers and you don’t know that you don’t understand numbers.

And thats another good answer.

You live off of those numbers.  Good for you for needing what you think youre reading

Tell us what they mean, you know what you apparently know in all your years scouting and drafting players.  You want to argue that negligible differences in the numbers proves anything, fine.

Another condescending person playing the game

 

[Jet Nut]

10 minutes ago, johnnysd said:

Jawan Taylor...he's rated around 6 to 8 in most rankings and I think he is a 10 year guy. Prefer to trade down and get a center too

OK, got that.  Not sure if thats where I go over edge but wouldnt kill me

[#27TheDominator]

Dear God.  Leonard Williams did not even sniff Henry Anderson and you guys are trying to compare him to Quinnen Williams and Oliver?

[kdels62]

15 minutes ago, TeddEY said:

Ok, if these differences are insignificant, again, why is QW so much higher than LW in SPARQ?

Or, is SPARQ just completely flawed?

It’s definitely flawed. It heavily overvalues weight, height and length.

Leo is good evidence of SPARQ’s failings. Because even tho it calls Leo a bad athlete it doesn’t account for the fact that Leo is freakishly strong regardless of weight. And that freakish strength makes up for some of his deficiencies.

FWIW I think Leo is a really good player but he lacks the quickness to be great or elite.