How can we justify drafting a DT at #3?

[Jet Nut]

Just now, choon328 said:

Lol. You know what I edited my post just before you responded. I shouldn't have said that, I'm just being a dick and i apologize. This sh*t isn't that serious. My bad dude.

Ok, ill give you your props for this, I agree, no reason for us to carry on for not agreeing, it happens

[Larz]

It's not up to us to justify anything

Just support the team and hope that whatever they do it works out

[Jet Nut]

2 hours ago, KRL said:

People need to stop the "pack think", they should want the best pass rusher not just an edge rusher.
If Quinnen Williams or Ed Oliver have the same traits as Aaron Donald who cares what position they
play?  Also the most damaging type of pressure to an offense/QB is the one that comes up the middle.
It destroys run & pass blocking schemes, prevents QB's from stepping into their throws and flushes
them out of the pocket  

Especially when Donald is a DT, plays the same position

[Scoop24]

“ I’ll be surprised if he gets past #3” ?

 

[Philc1]

4 hours ago, kdels62 said:

Quinnen cannot be as good as Watt. He’s not nearly explosive enough. His workouts were nice but that next level explosion that Watt possesses is absent from Quinnen’s body.

Watch tape

[kdels62]

5 minutes ago, Philc1 said:

Watch tape

Does watching tape add 4 inches to QWs vertical and 4 inches to his broad jump? 

[Philc1]

1 minute ago, kdels62 said:

Does watching tape add 4 inches to QWs vertical and 4 inches to his broad jump? 

QW had a phenomenal workout you can nitpick all you want and try to sound like you know something and he isnt just a workout guy watch the tape from last season he wrecked offensive lines in the SEC

 

I like Bosa and Allen too but no way the 49ers don’t draft Bosa and Allen could be good, could suck 

[Peace Frog]

4 hours ago, choon328 said:

There are many many examples of QB's whose growth was stunted bc of offensive line problems. But you know that already.

I know people have talked themselves into the theory that Harrison is good enough at Center but he's not. So there is a huge hole at Center still. Add in that both tackles are free agents after next season as well. If those 2 things don't concern you then I don't know what to tell you.

Having a poor offensive line for your 22 year old Franchise QB is like buying a Maybach and parking it in your driveway bc you don't have a garage. 

Drafting a defensive player at #3 while you have a hole at Center and will have a hole at LT and RT in 2020 is like putting an extension on your mansion while your Maybach sits out in the rain and snow bc you chose to not build the garage. You're sh*tting on your investment.

What if you built a gazebo?

[Embrace the Suck]

It can't be justified. It can only be rationalized by people trying to sound smart which doesn't make it right. 

[NYJ1]

BPA

[kdels62]

36 minutes ago, Philc1 said:

QW had a phenomenal workout you can nitpick all you want and try to sound like you know something and he isnt just a workout guy watch the tape from last season he wrecked offensive lines in the SEC

 

I like Bosa and Allen too but no way the 49ers don’t draft Bosa and Allen could be good, could suck 

I do love all the  NFL prospects all along the LSU o-line and the the Tennesee o-line. How'd Q do against the legitimate NFL prospects on the Sooner o-line? Or against the Clemson o-line? Or the Texas A&M o-line? 

I like Quinnen Williams, I think he's worth top 5 chatter and he'll be at least Gerald McCoy but he won't be and doesn't have the tools to be JJ Watt.

[Augustiniak]

1 minute ago, kdels62 said:

I like Quinnen Williams, I think he's worth top 5 chatter and he'll be at least Gerald McCoy but he won't be and doesn't have the tools to be JJ Watt.

this is really the question, will any of these highly touted defensive players be a stud, or merely a good or very good player?  because if the best quinnen williams can do is be a pretty good player i'd rather have picks and more players.  

sacks are great, but really, if a guy gets 10 sacks that means there are least 6 games where there's no sacks.  and in those games where a guy gets 1 sack, the other team can still get a first down on this drive.  it's not as devastating as it sounds for the other team.  

[#27TheDominator]

6 hours ago, Philc1 said:

I love how people think QW didn’t also have one of the all time great combine workouts he almost had as good a 40 time as Bosa while being 50 lbs heavier

Posters point out that QW's jumps were pedestrian and he refused to run agility times, then stood on the combine figures at his pro-day...

41 minutes ago, Philc1 said:

QW had a phenomenal workout you can nitpick all you want and try to sound like you know something and he isnt just a workout guy watch the tape from last season he wrecked offensive lines in the SEC

Watch tape?  What was so phenomenal about his workout?  I heard he was good in interviews and drills, but that is pretty subjective.  His jumps were very meh and better figures are necessary for "phenomenal," let alone "all time great." 

[kdels62]

3 minutes ago, Augustiniak said:

this is really the question, will any of these highly touted defensive players be a stud, or merely a good or very good player?  because if the best quinnen williams can do is be a pretty good player i'd rather have picks and more players.  

sacks are great, but really, if a guy gets 10 sacks that means there are least 6 games where there's no sacks.  and in those games where a guy gets 1 sack, the other team can still get a first down on this drive.  it's not as devastating as it sounds for the other team.  

I think this is a case for QW. He'll be able to get pressure at higher rate than Leo and Leo already is a good pressure guy. Q is going to be a good player but so are Allen, Bosa and Oliver. Oliver however has the ability to be more than just a good pressure guy, he could be one of the best in the league. 

[Augustiniak]

Just now, #27TheDominator said:

Posters point out that QW's jumps were pedestrian and he refused to run agility times, then stood on the combine figures at his pro-day...

Watch tape?  What was so phenomenal about his workout?  I heard he was good in interviews and drills, but that is pretty subjective.  His jumps were very meh and better figures are necessary for "phenomenal," let alone "all time great." 

he will be a better version of leonard williams.  i'd rather have josh allen, i think he's the real deal.

[Augustiniak]

Just now, kdels62 said:

I think this is a case for QW. He'll be able to get pressure at higher rate than Leo and Leo already is a good pressure guy. Q is going to be a good player but so are Allen, Bosa and Oliver. Oliver however has the ability to be more than just a good pressure guy, he could be one of the best in the league. 

if i'm taking a defensive player at 3 i want this player to have really good measurables as well as a history of production.  oliver or allen over williams. 

[Vader]

warren sapp

[GREENBEAN]

All this bickering of who we should draft is giving me a headache. It all comes down to drafting a position of need. If we stay at 3, go DE and take Bosa/Allen. On the other hand if we trade down, let's build up the O line and protect our franchise QB. It's all pretty simple. The problem is I fear Macc may not see it this way. 

As complicated as it gets out here with all of us, could you imagine how insane it is inside the .org?? lol.
I’d love to get a real view of the war room for the whole process.

We talk about our headaches. I’m sure it’s 100x worse for the guys actually doing this work.


Sent from my iPhone using JetNation.com mobile app

[Darnold Schwarzenegger]

Jets must live on edge with Nick Bosa or Josh Allen at No. 3 in NFL draft

By Rich cimini

All the New York Jets have to do is show up for the NFL draft, wait their turn and walk away with one of the top three defensive prospects -- Josh Allen, Nick Bosa or Quinnen Williams. It's a mathematical certainty, as they pick No. 3 overall in this potentially historic defensive class. The Jets can't lose, and when was the last time you could say that about them in, well, anything?

Ah, but it's not as simple as it might appear. Even though it's no-lose, it probably won't be a no-brainer. Chances are, they will have to choose between two of the top prospects, creating the potential for a sizzling debate among the "best-player-available" purists and the "draft-for-need" realists

Allen or Williams?

Bosa or Allen?

Williams or Bosa?

This, of course, is based on the presumption that quarterback Kyler Murray will be picked first by the Arizona Cardinals. Most mock drafts have the San Francisco 49ers taking Bosa with the second pick, but that is no gimme. In all likelihood, the Jets will get a crack at the No. 2 defensive player, assuming there are no trades in the top three picks.

The best choices for the Jets are Bosa, Allen and Williams, in that order. That opinion is based on a variety of factors, namely:

Positional need

The Jets finished the 2018 season in 29th place in scoring defense and 25th in total defense, so you could argue they need help just about everywhere on that side of the ball, but their greatest need is edge rusher. A difference-maker on the perimeter would force teams to stretch their pass-protection schemes, creating one-on-one opportunities for interior players Leonard Williams and Henry Anderson. This is a passing league, and you need players who can affect the quarterback.

Bosa and Allen would bring that element to the defense. According to Pro Football Focus, they ranked first and third in the nation in pass-rushing "win" percentage -- 28.2 and 21.6, respectively. (Oshane Ximines, considered a second-round prospect, ranked second at 22.6 percent.)

Quinnen Williams, too, can be an effective rusher in his own way -- from the interior. In 2018, the Alabama defensive tackle led the nation with 52 quarterbacks pressures, according to ESPN Stats & Information. Thing is, the Jets already have two highly paid players at similar positions, Leonard Williams and Anderson.

Many talent evaluators say all three prospects are closely rated, with Bosa and Williams slightly ahead of Allen. Drafting for need can be a dangerous way to do business, as it ultimately will result in a roster of mediocre players, but only if you're reaching for inferior players. Not one of the three would be considered a reach at No. 3. General manager Mike Maccagnan says he believes in the "best-player" philosophy, yet he traded up last year to address a glaring need at quarterback. There's a difference between "best player" and "best player for the Jets."

Advantage: Bosa and Allen

p

Scheme fit

Allen would be a plug-and-play outside linebacker in Gregg Williams' 3-4 base front. He played the same position at Kentucky, where he recorded 17 sacks last season in the killer SEC. From a scheme standpoint, it would be an easy transition. Allen is 6-foot-5, 260 pounds, but he's adept in pass coverage. Under Williams, he could be a Swiss Army knife, lining up in different places.

Memo to the Jets: Don't look a gift rusher in the mouth.

Clearly, they covet an edge linebacker with a versatile skill set. The Jets tipped their hand in free agency with the pursuit of Anthony Barr, whom they were willing to pay $15 million a year. When he reneged on his agreement with the Jets, they re-signed starter Brandon Copeland to a modest, one-year contract. He's considered only a stopgap player.

"Josh is an excellent pass-rusher," one NFC coach said. "He's still a little bit raw, but he hasn't reached his potential yet. He can bend, he can play the run. He has some pass-rush moves; it's not just straight-ahead speed. His upside is tremendous."

Quinnen Williams can play in any front -- 3-4 or 4-3 -- but the question is where he would fit with the Jets. They're paying $14 million to Leonard Williams this season and $17 million to Anderson over the next two, so it would be foolish to put them on the bench. Gregg Williams is a creative defensive coordinator who probably could create a way to get all three players on the field at the same time -- Quinnen at nose tackle? -- but you wonder if they would be able to live with that look over the long haul.

ESPN draft analyst Todd McShay, for one, believes Williams would be the right pick at No. 3. He said Allen would be "the easier choice" because he would fill a need, but he added, "I just think Quinnen is special, I really do. You can move guys around. ... I just think if you get an opportunity to draft a difference-maker, the way I think Quinnen can be in the league, you have to take advantage."

Bosa is an interesting case. He was a 4-3 defensive end at Ohio State, so he would be required to make a position switch to either a 3-4 end or 3-4 outside linebacker. That can be a dicey proposition. This much we know: He would contribute immediately as an edge rusher in the nickel package, which usually is at least 50 percent of the snaps.

Advantage: Allen

pl

Risk/reward factor

There's no such thing as a sure thing, but these three players carry minimal risk. They're among the cleanest prospects in the draft, with no off-the-field red flags.

For the nit-picking crowd, we could point out Williams was a one-year wonder at Alabama. Prior to last season, he had only 20 tackles and two sacks in 151 snaps. Bosa, too, didn't play a lot in college, but for a different reason. He left school last October after season-ending surgery for a core-muscle injury, finishing his career with only 30 games (10 starts). From all indications, he's healthy now.

Allen was a four-year player and had no major injuries. The only knock, if you can call it that, is that he comes from a school that doesn't produce much NFL talent. Since 2003, Kentucky has had only two first-round picks -- linebacker Bud Dupree (Pittsburgh Steelers) and defensive tackle Dewayne Robertson (Jets), who was a bust.

In terms of ceiling, scouts are fascinated by Williams, who has rare athletic traits for his position. Alabama teammate Jonah Williams called Quinnen a "300-pound bar of soap." He blew up the scouting combine, running the 40-yard dash in 4.83 seconds -- at 303 pounds, mind you. Humans aren't supposed to move that fast. Some teams reportedly consider him the best prospect in the draft.

"When I got done evaluating the tape, I thought he was the best defensive player in all of college football this year," McShay said.

Allen posted a 4.63 and a 1.61 in the 10-yard split, almost identical to those of Chicago Bears star Khalil Mack (4.65 and 1.61). When evaluating pass-rushers, scouts pay close attention to the 10-yard split. While Bosa didn't run a scintillating 40 (4.79 at 266 pounds), his 10-yard split (1.60) opened eyes. Bosa's explosive burst, combined with his flawless technique, leverage and flexibility, make him an outstanding overall prospect. He was on his way to a monster 2018 season (four sacks in three games) before his injury.

The bottom line is that all three prospects have great potential, but Quinnen Williams is unique because of the "freak" factor.

Advantage: Williams.

The right man

There's no wrong choice here because all three players have star potential, but the best choice for the Jets is Bosa or Allen, based on the positions they play. They could trade the pick, which makes the conversation moot. But if they stay put at No. 3, they will have a once-in-a-decade opportunity to add a player who could actually lead the league in sacks one day.

 

Even Cimini gets it. At three it should be Bosa or Allen because DE is more important than DT.

[Scoop24]

Lol as if people actually listen to cimini

[jetsons]

At #3 you draft the BPA... period... if the top 3 prospects are equally rated on your board then you take the one who best fits your scheme.

[Ex-Rex]

On 4/17/2019 at 12:30 AM, Darnold Schwarzenegger said:

There is a strong possibility that Maccagnan is not going to be able to swing a trade, and he is forced to make a pick at 3. There is also a high probability that he takes Quinnen Williams with that pick. How are we going to convince ourselves that it's a good pick?

Personally I don't want to draft defense at all. The offense has been neglected for years. We finally got our franchise qb, and all of our assets should be going toward building around him IMO.

Now I understand that the strength of this draft is on the defensive side of the ball. Especially the blue chip players. So I get not reaching for an offensive player there. But if your are going to draft defense again, to me the pick has to be either Allen or Bosa. Don't even consider Williams because DE/ OLB is a far more important position than a DT. 

Half this board hates on Adams and leo because they were high draft picks that don't make game changing plays. I got news for you, neither will Quinnen Williams. He will be good against the run. He will get 4-5 sacks a season. But he is not going to be a game changing player. He is not Aaron Donald. Nobody is Aaron Donald. He is a freak of nature. If you want game changing plays then we should be going after Allen or Bosa.  Allen and Bosa both have the potential to consistently have 10+ sacks seasons. 

 

It won't be. The Jets already have a bunch of interior D-Lineman types and adding another simply means the number three pick in the draft will have to share time with an established player. Unless the Jets trade or release Leonard Williams before the draft, I can't see picking this guy when a Nick Bosa or Josh Allen will likely be on the board at three.

[varjet]

6 hours ago, jetsons said:

At #3 you draft the BPA... period... if the top 3 prospects are equally rated on your board then you take the one who best fits your scheme.

You absolutely take BPA at the top of the draft.

The issue is that the Player Ranking System is out of whack and does not grade college players based on NFL value.

These DTs always grade really high because these big, strong DTs can push around college OL too easily.  When they reach the NFL, they are often not as effective.

There is a pretty simple way to look at it-what is the difference between what the player you are drafting would cost on the open market vs. what you would to pay if you drafted him?  

Look at what Sheldon cost the Browns, and what we are paying Leo?  I would rather pay Sheldon what he is getting to have him here for 2 years.  

People thought Leo was the best player in his draft?  Who would we rather have?  Leo or Gurley?  

Leo was a good player for what he was paid years 1-4, but not for what he is paid now.   He will have a big year this year.  Let's see what he gets paid.  Paying Mo obviously did not end well.  

If Allen can be close to what Demarcus Lawrence is, wouldn't it make sense to draft him rather than pay Von Miller next year what he could want?

[bitonti]

17 hours ago, Augustiniak said:

if i'm taking a defensive player at 3 i want this player to have really good measurables as well as a history of production.  oliver or allen over williams. 

OIiver has 99 sparq, Allen and Williams are both in the mid-80's 

i.e. Allen isn't a rarer athlete than Williams, and neither of them are bad athletes per se. 80th percentile is pretty good

so basically however rare and athletic you think Josh Allen is running a 4.6 at 255, Williams running a 4.8 at 300 is equally rare or rarer 

[Larz]

10 hours ago, Scoop24 said:

Lol as if people actually listen to cimini

Cimini wrote that whole piece expecting that the Jets will take Quinnen lol

[Skeptable]

On 4/17/2019 at 8:45 AM, Smashmouth said:

Draft Devin White at number 3 if you can't trade out.. why ? Because we know his skills will translate to the NFL and the 3-4 needs great LB's to succeed not number 3 overall occupiers. 4.4 speed at LB is very rare 

With all the talk of what Allen COULD BE.... Why not get a complete LB that can edge rush, versus an edge rusher that might be able to turn into a complete LB. I am all for if they end up drafting White... or we can hope that Allen turns into some sort of Khalil Mack Monster on the outside. 

[Skeptable]

3 minutes ago, Skeptable said:

With all the talk of what Allen COULD BE.... Why not get a complete LB that can edge rush, versus an edge rusher that might be able to turn into a complete LB. I am all for if they end up drafting White... or we can hope that Allen turns into some sort of Khalil Mack Monster on the outside. 

Think about having Mosley, Williamson and White. The versatility of moving those LBs around would allow for a lot of masked blitzes. 

[Augustiniak]

23 minutes ago, bitonti said:

OIiver has 99 sparq, Allen and Williams are both in the mid-80's 

i.e. Allen isn't a rarer athlete than Williams, and neither of them are bad athletes per se. 80th percentile is pretty good

so basically however rare and athletic you think Josh Allen is running a 4.6 at 255, Williams running a 4.8 at 300 is equally rare or rarer 

allen is lanky, causes fumbles and probably hasn't reached his full potential yet.  he's also more versatile.  

you're probably not going to convince this board that we should take Q over allen.

[JoJoTownsell1]

10 minutes ago, Skeptable said:

 With all the talk of what Allen COULD BE.... Why not get a complete LB that can edge rush, versus an edge rusher that might be able to turn into a complete LB. I am all for if they end up drafting White... or we can hope that Allen turns into some sort of Khalil Mack Monster on the outside. 

What makes White more of a sure thing that Allen. What makes you think Allen isn't a complete LBer?

He had 17 sacks last year and wasn't even used exclusively as a pass rusher. Kentucky often used him to cover RBs/TEs. He is the definition of a complete LBer and he did all of that in the SEC. 

Don't get me wrong, I think White is great also, but if you are looking for a complete LBer that can also be an edge rushing beast the choice is unquestionably Allen. If you are looking for a complete LBer that is a beast against the run, then White is your guy, but we just signed Mosley and still need an edge guy so to me the choice is pretty obvious. The Ravens, who just lost Mosley, are a team that has been talked about wanting White (if he falls or in a trade up). That should tell you something. 

[JoJoTownsell1]

50 minutes ago, Ex-Rex said:

It won't be. The Jets already have a bunch of interior D-Lineman types and adding another simply means the number three pick in the draft will have to share time with an established player. Unless the Jets trade or release Leonard Williams before the draft, I can't see picking this guy when a Nick Bosa or Josh Allen will likely be on the board at three.

I tend to agree. If we stick at 3, it's tough to justify an interior guy when Allen or Bosa will be available. And I love Quinnen Williams, but I also really like Bosa/Allen so when it's close, you draft the need.

If we trade back and Oliver is sitting there in the 8-15 range and there is no edge rusher in the same grade level as Oliver then I can be convinced that taking an interior guy is the right move. Then again, in the 8-15 range, you can probably find an OL that fills a bigger long term need than a DT. 

[Augustiniak]

2 minutes ago, JoJoTownsell1 said:

I tend to agree. If we stick at 3, it's tough to justify an interior guy when Allen or Bosa will be available. And I love Quinnen Williams, but I also really like Bosa/Allen so when it's close, you draft the need.

If we trade back and Oliver is sitting there in the 8-15 range and there is no edge rusher in the same grade level as Oliver then I can be convinced that taking an interior guy is the right move. Then again, in the 8-15 range, you can probably find an OL that fills a bigger long term need than a DT. 

if the jets can't trade back then the worse case is bosa/allen go 1/2.  mccagnan takes Q based on BAP and jets once again would not get edge rusher or offensive line help.  

[JoJoTownsell1]

7 minutes ago, Augustiniak said:

if the jets can't trade back then the worse case is bosa/allen go 1/2.  mccagnan takes Q based on BAP and jets once again would not get edge rusher or offensive line help.  

True, but I would assume that in that scenario some team would trade up to take whatever QB is ranked #1 on their Board. 

[bitonti]

26 minutes ago, Augustiniak said:

allen is lanky, causes fumbles and probably hasn't reached his full potential yet.  he's also more versatile.  

you're probably not going to convince this board that we should take Q over allen.

you made the statement you wanted rare measurables at 3 

just saying Oliver has the rarest measurables, by far.

Allen and Williams are similar (good not great) in terms of physical rareness.  

not trying to convince the board of who to take but keep it accurate. Josh Allen was a 2 star prep the idea he's this super sick athlete is not really backed up by the numbers -

 

he's a very good athlete - but not 99 percentile ... and it's not clear how much more upside he has. (is he getting faster?) 

there's a very real chance Allen's athletic abilities are being overrated by Jets fans because the team beefed on Anthony Barr

[Augustiniak]

Just now, bitonti said:

you made the statement you wanted rare measurables at 3 

just saying Oliver has the rarest measurables, by far.

Allen and Williams are similar (good not great) in terms of physical rareness.  

not trying to convince the board of who to take but keep it accurate. Josh Allen was a 2 star prep the idea he's this super sick athlete is not really backed up by the numbers 

i think oliver will be more of a game changer than Q, i agree.  

[genot]

If we draft Williams over Oliver, my TV will no longer be able to transmit pictures into my living room. Oliver is the better athlete. He's more scheme versatile, and he isn't a player who came out of nowhere, like Williams did last year. He's been a beast since day one.