JJ Arcega-Whiteside - Scouting

[win4ever]

This is my article for the Titans.  I think he might be an interesting choice if he makes it to the 3rd.  Obviously ignore the stuff about the Titans, but I thought he was a very interesting prospect that I honestly like better than Harry.   Anyway, would love to hear what people think.  

http://anatomyoftitans.com/2019/04/tennessee-titans-draft-outlook-jj-arcega-whiteside/

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The next in the series of prospect profile for the Tennessee Titans: JJ Arcega-Whiteside

Why do the Titans need a receiver like Arcega-Whiteside?

Red Zone efficiency, because they don’t have the jump ball specialist near the end zone for one on one looks.  Last year, the Titans were 23^rd in red zone efficiency, albeit a healthy Delanie Walker will cure some of those issues.  The Titans present a match up problem for defenses because they have a unique blend of weapons. 

Derrick Henry:  A powerful running back that likes to cut outside and stiff arm defensive backs. 

Marcus Mariota:  An accurate QB, who is a major threat to run the ball. 

Right off the bat, the defense has to worry about two running threats from the backfield, and both tend to run around the edges.  Contrary to what his size would have you believe, Henry is much more comfortable running to the edges and overpowering defensive backs, and Mariota is one of the fastest QBs in the game. 

Delanie Walker:  His injury last year might have been the biggest blow to the offense, because an RPO based offense relies heavily on tight ends.   I covered it in the Delanie Walker extension article (https://anatomyoftitans.com/2018/07/delaniewalkerextension/) as to why they were so eager to sign him.  Essentially it boils down to offensive line blocking.  In college, the offensive line is allowed to blow up to 3 yards down the field on a passing play.  In the NFL, the yardage down the field is limited to only 1 yard down the field.  On passing plays, the offensive line generally sits back and plugs holes, while on running plays they push forward to create holes.  On RPOs, the issue is the 1 yard rule for lineman, because once past that, they are considered ineligible receivers down the field.  So how is the problem solved? Tight ends.  They are eligible receivers but also (theoretically) good blockers, which means they can be aggressive on the edge for a running play (and remember, Henry loves the edge) or run down the field in a quick passing set up.  Walker being removed from that role, completely changed the offensive outlook for the Titans. 

Corey Davis:  At the risk of getting some criticism, I don’t think Davis is a No. 1 receiver in the league.  He’s a good No. 2, but he doesn’t win consistently enough to be a No. 1.  He’s a very good No. 2. 

2018:

Corey Davis:  65 receptions, 891 yards, 4 TDs, 58% catch rate

Player A:  66 receptions, 872 yards, 4 TDs, 61% catch rate

Who is Player A? Sterling Shepard. 

They are both very good No. 2 options, but not a No. 1 option in an offense. 

Adam Humphries: He thrived with the Bucs, but played across Mike Evans, DeSean Jackson, Chris Godwin, and OJ Howard.  In this case, Evans is the No. 1, Jackson/Godwin (interchangeable as No. 2), and Howard/Brate as the TE receiving threat.  First of all, that was a loaded offense and Ryan Fitzpatrick should thank the GM for getting him another contract.  The Titans can replicate the No. 2 option, with Davis to replace Godwin, and Walker can play the Howard/Brate role.  However, the No. 1 option played by Evans can’t be replicated because a receiver that good won’t make it to 19.  However, a receiver that can pose a similar threat in the red zone, while possessing high upside can still be had in the second round.  

JJ Arcega-Whiteside

As usual, we’ll start with some physical comparisons, but he didn’t do many of the drills, so stats are hard to compile.  

Arcega-Whiteside:  6’2”, 225lbs, 33.25 arm length, 9.5” hand size, 4.49 40 yard dash

Player A:  6’3”, 224lbs, 33.25 arm length, 10” hand size, 4.52 40 yard dash

Final season in college:

Arcega-Whitesode: 63 receptions, 1059 yards, 14 TD, 23.2% of team’s receptions, 48.2% of team’s TDs

Player A:  42 receptions, 714 yards, 7 TDs, 13.4% of team’s receptions, 30.4% of team’s TDs

Who is Player A?

Josh Gordon.  However, before everyone starts to get angry, a few caveats.  One, Gordon played with Kendall Wright and Terrance Williams, which meant the ball was spread out away from him.  He did get kicked off the team, but did play in 13 games in his final season, although he was just a sophomore, while Arcega-Whiteside is a senior.  Gordon did run the vertical and broad jumps and placed in the 57^th and 56^th percentile respectively, therefore he didn’t show otherworldly skills in those events.  Arcega-Whiteside didn’t participate in those events, so I’d venture a guess and say he didn’t test well in training for those events, but it’s hard to tell.  Furthermore, there is YouTube evidence of him running other drills at his pro-day, but the timing hasn’t been posted on any of the usual websites.

Let’s break down some tape: 

1.  

This is a great reception, even though it looks like an easy completion.  Notice how Whiteside is setting up this route by approaching the defender straight on, showing stutter moves.  He doesn’t want the defender to lean one way or another at the start.  The major point for Whiteside here is prevent the defender from turning his hips towards the inside, which would negate this route.  Once he gets adequately down field, Whiteside cuts to the outside and you can see the hips of the defender turn to the outside as well.  While the camera angle doesn’t show it, you can safely assume Whiteside then cut back inside across the defender to be wide open on this curl route.  The throw is a bit off because the QB is being hit as he throws, but Whiteside makes a great adjustment and reels it in. This play is mostly impressive for how he’s setting up the defender for the route, and his adjustment to the pass.  He has the nuances of route set up down fairly well, although his set up lags at times because he slows down too much to sell it.  However, that’s something that can be corrected in the NFL as the important aspect is understanding how to manipulate the hips of defenders. 

2)

This would be considered a negative for him, but I wanted to highlight what I was talking about with his need to slow down to try and manipulate the hips of the defender.  You can see him clearly decelerating here to put moves on the defender, but the cornerback is playing too far back to have an effect.  Essentially, he wants the defender to turn his hips to the inside, so Whiteside can run by on the outside, but it’s not effective with this large of a gap between them.  He draws a pass interference penalty on the play, but that’s mainly because the defensive back seems clueless on how to defend 50/50 passes.  This is where Whiteside needs to adjust his route to attack vertically, and use speed instead of misdirection.  Since Whiteside does get compared to power forward in basketball, I’ll use basketball terminology.  Whiteside, at times, seems to be the player that has a great crossover move.  However, he’s overly reliant on the crossover at times, when a straight cut to the basket is the best option.  He doesn’t realize that a great crossover doesn’t work all the time, because the defense doesn’t have to react to move unless they are standing close to him.  On this play, if Whiteside attacks the middle of the field like he’s running a post, then the defender would flip his hips and he’d get the exact result he was seeking for a cut outside. 

3)

This play is about as well covered as you can get from the defender, yet Whiteside comes down with the touchdown.  I want you to notice his legs and hips on the play, because that’s why he gets this touchdown.  Similar to a rebounder, he’s blocking out the defender with his legs and holding his ground.  He’s using his lower body leverage until the last second, where he lunges at the ball.  You’ll hear the term “he threw the ball where only his receiver could make a play on it” with QBs all the time, and this is a similar situation.  However, in this case, the QB threw it where it’s a 50/50 ball all the way, so he didn’t accomplish anything special.  Since Whiteside is using his leverage and planting his foot in the ground to hold up the defender, and then lunge towards the ball, the defender doesn’t have a direct shot at the ball.  Either Whiteside will catch this ball, or it will fall incomplete because he turned a situation where the defender was in the perfect spot, and turned the odds in his favor because he’s adept at boxing out.  This is exactly what you want in the red zone. 

4)

This is back to where the crossover analogy works in his favor, as you can see him manipulate the defender on this outside release.  The ball isn’t thrown to him, and the view doesn’t follow him down the field.  The defender has inside leverage, with his hips turned to the outside on this play, so he’s perfectly in position to turn and run down the sidelines with Whiteside.  However, the leg jab to the inside completely freezes the defender for a split second, which allows Whiteside enough time to run right by the defensive back.  You can briefly see that Whiteside is going to have at least a 1-2 yard separation down the field here, albeit the QB chooses a different route. 

5)

This play probably encapsulates both the upside and dangers with Arcega-Whiteside.  The good part is obviously him scoring a TD here against good coverage.  Notice how he uses his legs and hips to position himself, rather than pushing off with his hands.  He’s using his legs to block off the defender and prevent him from going after the ball.  On this play, the defender is overwhelmed and falls down, so it’s a fairly easy catch.  The main takeaway is that, he’s very adept at controlling defenders at the point of attack, without using obvious push-offs that will get called for penalties.  The bad part of the play is the route.  This is essentially just backyard football, with a straight go route, looking back early, and then just out muscling your defender to the ball.  In terms of pure route skills, there isn’t much shown here, which is concerning because he will have to run more technical routes in the NFL, unless he’s drafted by a select few teams like Green Bay. 

6)

This is staying on the theme of what he needs to work on, because he rounds off this route.  He doesn’t cut off this out route crisply, and in an effort to maintain speed rounds it off, which means his projected path is now further down the field.  The NFL tests for this at the combine with the 3-cone drill and 20-yard shuttles to see how well you can change directions.  It’s a bit alarming that Arcega-Whiteside did not participate in those drills. 

7)

The play highlights the speed of Arcega-Whiteside as he runs by the cornerback on a go route down the field.  If this ball was thrown better, it’s an easy touchdown as he had a 2 yard cushion on the defensive back.  The defender in this case is Iman Marshall, who ran a 4.53 forty yard dash at the combine.  There isn’t much else to highlight, I just wanted to show film where Arcega-Whiteside displays his speed. 

?

This play has been referenced on pretty much any scouting report you see for Arcega-Whiteside, and it showcases his ability to release at the line of scrimmage.   He does the quick jab step to the outside with his foot, before cutting back and exploding down the field right by the defender.  This release bodes well for his ability to beat man coverage in the NFL, especially if he can create inside leverage akin to this play.  As usual, the thing to notice is how he attacks the defender and makes the move as late as possible to control the hips of the cornerback.  Once he has inside leverage with his size advantage, this is a high percentage throw. 

9)

This is another jump ball route because it’s just designed to be a one on one match up.  Notice how late the ball is for this pass, because it’s thrown with a jump ball as the only intention.  The main takeaway here is how Arcega-Whiteside high points the ball for the touchdown.   However, I want you to notice his feet more than the hands, because he’s getting his leverage against the defender through his legwork.  He’s leaning his hips into the defender, and then moving the legs further into the endzone, thus moving the defender further down the field.  He isn’t primarily using his hands to create separation, but rather his feet, which will rarely get called for pass interference.  Instead of pushing off, he’s using his hands to contain the hands of the defender so he has a clear path to the ball when it’s time to leap.  This is almost textbook blocking out in basketball, and you can clearly see how it translates to football field. 

10)

This one is here to show his yards after the catch ability and how he can show speed running down the field.  He’s not going to juke too many defenders in the open field, but he can flat out over-power them like Derrick Henry against the Jaguars. 

11)

He’s in the slot, to the top of the screen, and I added this here to show his potential route running prowess.  Notice how the stutter to the outside completely leaves the defender in the dust, and allows for an easy completion.   I think he’s raw with some cuts, especially with out routes, but he definitely has potential to be a monster on post routes. 

12)

The last one here is to show his ability to control the body on a sideline pass.  The defender plays this back shoulder pass about as well as you can, yet Arcega-Whiteside still comes down with the catch.  On this play, it’s his arm extension that is impressive because he slightly pushes him away without being blatant.  You see this often with DeAndre Hopkins, and how he creates separation at the last second with slight extensions.  I’m not saying Arcega-Whiteside is on the same level as Hopkins in boxing players out, but he definitely shows the skills to be a winner on most 50/50 passes. 

Scouting Report:

Pro:

• Elite level skills in positioning for the ball, uses hip to box out defenders
• Speed is very good for size
• Impressive TD numbers in a non-prolific passing game
• Good blocker, especially with his size
• Hands catcher, and catches the ball away from his body
• Good release on routes

Con:

• Agility is lacking, albeit expected for his size
• Routes aren’t crisp and rely heavily on box outs
• Initiates contact, which could lead to penalties

Round: 2

Pro-Comparison:  Mike Williams

Overall, I love Arcega-Whiteside’s potential because he has physical upside coupled with instant production.  If he were to be drafted by the Titans, he would instantly become the best red zone threat for the team.  He has the speed and athleticism to develop further as a receiver, especially with his ability to make cuts.  While I used Josh Gordon as an example to showcase his athletic profile, my closest comparison is Mike Williams (Chargers).  They both have exceptional ability to snag the ball at its high point, while not being a extremely agile.  While Williams was beset by injuries in his first year, he did score 7 touchdowns last year, and will be a red zone nightmare for defenses.   The Chargers were 28^th in red zone efficiency the year before, and moved all the way up to 8^th, which shows the type of impact that Williams has on the offense. 

The Titans should look into Arcega-Whiteside with the 51^st overall pick because he fits in perfectly on the team.  He has high potential to be a poor man’s Mike Evans type, while still contributing from day 1.  He has the potential to transform the red zone struggles, and terrorize one on one matchups because he’s so adept at boxing defenders away from the ball.  Corey Davis and Adam Humphries have more space to work in the intermediate area, while also providing a blocking option on runs outside.  The added blocking aspect is extra beneficial to the Titans, because it goes back to Derrick Henry being an outside runner.  It also helps that the team can set up Walker as a blocker on one end, and Arcega-Whiteside on the other, and create issues for the defense.

Thanks for checking in with the Tennessee Titans Draft Outlook: JJ Arcega-Whiteside article, and please check back with us, and follow on Twitter!

[JustInFudge]

I'm having a hard time seeing him as #1.  And I dont get the comparisons at all.  I mean, you say Cory Davis isnt at #1, who went 5th overall.  Yet, you're projecting JJ as a 3rd round pick and he is a #1?  And then you compare him to Mike Williams who went 7th overall.

His stutter step is utterly unimpressive.  He didnt really create any space with it other than #11 vs. the worst defense I've ever seen. 

His body control is impressive but it scares me how every catch he makes he's got some draped all over him.  If he's struggling separating in college, I cant see it being easier in the pros. 

[#27TheDominator]

I am not a huge fan, but wait until @Paradis gets here!  He looks good on the box out, but I don't trust that his agility numbers will be above blocking TE.  Doesn't seem like the type of yards after catch guy that Gase wants. 

[win4ever]

12 minutes ago, JiF said:

I'm having a hard time seeing him as #1.  And I dont get the comparisons at all.  I mean, you say Cory Davis isnt at #1, who went 5th overall.  Yet, you're projecting JJ as a 3rd round pick and he is a #1?  And then you compare him to Mike Williams who went 7th overall.

His stutter step is utterly unimpressive.  He didnt really create any space with it other than #11 vs. the worst defense I've ever seen. 

His body control is impressive but it scares me how every catch he makes he's got some draped all over him.  If he's struggling separating in college, I cant see it being easier in the pros. 

He's not going to come in as a No. 1, but he has the potential to be with his size/speed.  Corey Davis isn't a 1 because he struggles to beat one on one coverage on a consistent basis.  He's a very good 2, but he was definitely over-rated.  Mike Williams got drafted high solely for his jump ball ability, because otherwise he's a disappointment at the No. 9 pick.  

I think he has a good stutter step, but lacks an understanding of when to use it, which was what I was alluding to the crossover in basketball.  He needs to learn that it has very little effect on a CB that is giving him space, but that's something that I hope can be coached in.  

He wasn't struggling quite as much, there were good instances where he was getting separation, but the QB didn't have a strong arm.  He separates better than N'Keal Harry, and his box out technique is quite impressive.  He's raw, which is why I doubt he will go in the first round, but he has the tools to be No. 1.  He has size, good hands, speed, technique at the catch point.  He's raw in route stems and agility.  

 

3 minutes ago, #27TheDominator said:

I am not a huge fan, but wait until @Paradis gets here!  He looks good on the box out, but I don't trust that his agility numbers will be above blocking TE.  Doesn't seem like the type of yards after catch guy that Gase wants. 

Yeah, not posting the agility numbers bother me because there is video of him doing the drills at his pro-day, but I think he has tremendous upside and instant red zone threat.  

[JustInFudge]

5 minutes ago, win4ever said:

He's not going to come in as a No. 1, but he has the potential to be with his size/speed.  Corey Davis isn't a 1 because he struggles to beat one on one coverage on a consistent basis.  He's a very good 2, but he was definitely over-rated.  Mike Williams got drafted high solely for his jump ball ability, because otherwise he's a disappointment at the No. 9 pick.  

I think he has a good stutter step, but lacks an understanding of when to use it, which was what I was alluding to the crossover in basketball.  He needs to learn that it has very little effect on a CB that is giving him space, but that's something that I hope can be coached in.  

He wasn't struggling quite as much, there were good instances where he was getting separation, but the QB didn't have a strong arm.  He separates better than N'Keal Harry, and his box out technique is quite impressive.  He's raw, which is why I doubt he will go in the first round, but he has the tools to be No. 1.  He has size, good hands, speed, technique at the catch point.  He's raw in route stems and agility.  

Love your breakdowns my man!  This is all great stuff.  Just not in agreement with you here.  He kind of reminds of a less productive Chad Hansen. 

 

[Paradis]

TLDR (all of it)... i'm at work, i'll try to circle back later. It's an impressive breakdown. I don't agree with 75% of it, but it's an impressive piece on the surface.

My feelings on JJAW haven't changed, not matter what phantom 40 he runs... his game doesn't translate to the NFL. His game speed is slow, and NFL corners are not going to sit on routes 10 yards back, and give JJAW position like this. The only thing he can do IMO, is run 9s all day. Problem is he's too slow. He's demonstrated no agility at the position, and did virtually nothing inside -- so there's no Decker role for him in the future.

Patrick Turner 2.0 is what i see. Wouldn't touch him before rnd 6-7 and only if i was looking for a WR4/5 for redzone packages.

[#27TheDominator]

25 minutes ago, win4ever said:

Yeah, not posting the agility numbers bother me because there is video of him doing the drills at his pro-day, but I think he has tremendous upside and instant red zone threat.  

If he ran the drills, someone has the times.  FWIW, playerprofiler may be using some.  They have his agility score as 11th percentile and his burst score as 29th.  Worse, they have his "catch radius" as 37th percentile.  For a guy with arms that long it is fairly pitiful.  By contrast, the guy I like, combine darling Miles Boykin,  also looks like a big lumbering WR with speed posted 98th percentile burst, 90th agility and 100th catch radius. Arceiga-Whiteside did have 6 more TDs, but I think there is more to coach with Boykin.  OTOH, maybe he just ends up another Darren Waller.  I think the problems for Fats' grandson mostly stem from substance abuse issues though.

[#27TheDominator]

FWIW, as a 5'9" CB, I look at the guys playing him and wonder why they all try to jump with him.  Isn't the proper thing to do to let him go up and try to saw him in half?  At least bust his arms. 

[Paradis]

1 hour ago, JiF said:

I'm having a hard time seeing him as #1.  And I dont get the comparisons at all.  I mean, you say Cory Davis isnt at #1, who went 5th overall.  Yet, you're projecting JJ as a 3rd round pick and he is a #1?  And then you compare him to Mike Williams who went 7th overall.

His stutter step is utterly unimpressive.  He didnt really create any space with it other than #11 vs. the worst defense I've ever seen. 

His body control is impressive but it scares me how every catch he makes he's got some draped all over him.  If he's struggling separating in college, I cant see it being easier in the pros. 

I've thought the same. His stutter step, or double move? (if you can call it that) in clip 9 and even in 3 is laughable. I just can't imagine NFL DBs having any trouble engulfing him. Also, he's a pussy for not doing anything at the combine. I don't like my WRs scared to face the music. 

If L. Jordan Humphrey can own his 5.0 40 yard run, JJAW could have owned whatever sh*t fest he would have laid down in the cones/agility and such drills.

[#27TheDominator]

3 minutes ago, Paradis said:

I've thought the same. His stutter step, or double move? (if you can call it that) in clip 9 and even in 3 is laughable. I just can't imagine NFL DBs having any trouble engulfing him. Also, he's a pussy for not doing anything at the combine. I don't like my WRs scared to face the music. 

If L. Jordan Humphrey can own his 5.0 40 yard run, JJAW could have owned whatever sh*t fest he would have laid down in the cones/agility and such drills.

Doesn't necessarily mean he is scared.  Maybe it is a financial decision.  We will know better after the draft.  If Humphery dumps way out and JJAW goes high, he may have made the right decision, even if we don't like it. 

[Paradis]

51 minutes ago, #27TheDominator said:

Doesn't necessarily mean he is scared.  Maybe it is a financial decision.  We will know better after the draft.  If Humphery dumps way out and JJAW goes high, he may have made the right decision, even if we don't like it. 

It means he's hiding his numbers to keep his draft stock up... as a personal decision between him and his agent-- of course. I might even do the same. 

As a GM or fan? Fck'im. 

I'll take a gamble on Humphrey over a JJAW.... cause at least i know what I'm getting. 

[win4ever]

Love your breakdowns my man!  This is all great stuff.  Just not in agreement with you here.  He kind of reminds of a less productive Chad Hansen. 
 

Thanks, yeah had to go a little bold because I just didn't have time to do many. Last year, did 3, and hit on Harold Landry (who actually got drafted by Titans and Marquez Valdes-Scantling with my Robby Anderson sleeper. Fell on my face with DJ Chark lol.

Arcega-Whiteside obviously carries risks because I doubt he's going in the first, but I think that offense is ill suited for receivers. Barely any good concepts that I liked.

[win4ever]

TLDR (all of it)... i'm at work, i'll try to circle back later. It's an impressive breakdown. I don't agree with 75% of it, but it's an impressive piece on the surface.
My feelings on JJAW haven't changed, not matter what phantom 40 he runs... his game doesn't translate to the NFL. His game speed is slow, and NFL corners are not going to sit on routes 10 yards back, and give JJAW position like this. The only thing he can do IMO, is run 9s all day. Problem is he's too slow. He's demonstrated no agility at the position, and did virtually nothing inside -- so there's no Decker role for him in the future.
Patrick Turner 2.0 is what i see. Wouldn't touch him before rnd 6-7 and only if i was looking for a WR4/5 for redzone packages.

Thanks.

I thought his game tape showed more speed or at least separation than someone like Harry.

Here is the weird thing I see him run the drills on YouTube at his pro day. He's doing the 3 cone and shuttle, but I can't find any stats of it. On phone at work so can't find it now but I'll post it later.

[JustInFudge]

12 minutes ago, win4ever said:

 

Thanks, yeah had to go a little bold because I just didn't have time to do many. Last year, did 3, and hit on Harold Landry (who actually got drafted by Titans and Marquez Valdes-Scantling with my Robby Anderson sleeper. Fell on my face with DJ Chark lol.

Arcega-Whiteside obviously carries risks because I doubt he's going in the first, but I think that offense is ill suited for receivers. Barely any good concepts that I liked.

 

It's early on Chark.  He was in a terrible offense with the worst QB play in the league. 

[Paradis]

44 minutes ago, win4ever said:

 

Thanks.

I thought his game tape showed more speed or at least separation than someone like Harry.

Here is the weird thing I see him run the drills on YouTube at his pro day. He's doing the 3 cone and shuttle, but I can't find any stats of it. On phone at work so can't find it now but I'll post it later.

 

Yea that is weird.

So who are you getting behind this year? Who's you list of guys you feel strongly about? 

[#27TheDominator]

2 hours ago, win4ever said:

 

Thanks, yeah had to go a little bold because I just didn't have time to do many. Last year, did 3, and hit on Harold Landry (who actually got drafted by Titans and Marquez Valdes-Scantling with my Robby Anderson sleeper. Fell on my face with DJ Chark lol.

Arcega-Whiteside obviously carries risks because I doubt he's going in the first, but I think that offense is ill suited for receivers. Barely any good concepts that I liked.

 

Interesting.  I picked Landry (1st) and MVS (6th) for the Ravens in the JN mock.  Only passed on Chark because he went early.

[Peace Frog]

5 hours ago, JiF said:

He kind of reminds of a less productive Chad Hansen. 

 

That’s impossible. 

[win4ever]

5 hours ago, #27TheDominator said:

If he ran the drills, someone has the times.  FWIW, playerprofiler may be using some.  They have his agility score as 11th percentile and his burst score as 29th.  Worse, they have his "catch radius" as 37th percentile.  For a guy with arms that long it is fairly pitiful.  By contrast, the guy I like, combine darling Miles Boykin,  also looks like a big lumbering WR with speed posted 98th percentile burst, 90th agility and 100th catch radius. Arceiga-Whiteside did have 6 more TDs, but I think there is more to coach with Boykin.  OTOH, maybe he just ends up another Darren Waller.  I think the problems for Fats' grandson mostly stem from substance abuse issues though.

I looked everywhere I could think of, even went and searched Twitter but I couldn't find the times anywhere.  I really wanted his agility scores because he doesn't run many routes on tape that require much agility.  I'm going to put the tape here below.  

Boykin is one guy I definitely don't see the speed on tape.  He has the athletic build, but his tape makes me cautious on him.  I didn't see that redeeming quality of him dominating CBs and for someone with his height/speed/agility/explosiveness score, should definitely had better tape.  It's also really hard to scout with these angles sometimes, but the company that runs the All 22 won't release it. 

5 hours ago, #27TheDominator said:

FWIW, as a 5'9" CB, I look at the guys playing him and wonder why they all try to jump with him.  Isn't the proper thing to do to let him go up and try to saw him in half?  At least bust his arms. 

He uses his foot/hip to block people off, kinda like boxing people out in basketball.  I think that's his elite ability, just absolutely great at box outs.  To me, his biggest concern is route steams, which I'd like to see in more detail but I can't find tape.  Usually, I like to only break down film of good defensive teams with talent because I don't need to see players dominate guys that have no shot at the league.

 

 

5 hours ago, Paradis said:

I've thought the same. His stutter step, or double move? (if you can call it that) in clip 9 and even in 3 is laughable. I just can't imagine NFL DBs having any trouble engulfing him. Also, he's a pussy for not doing anything at the combine. I don't like my WRs scared to face the music. 

If L. Jordan Humphrey can own his 5.0 40 yard run, JJAW could have owned whatever sh*t fest he would have laid down in the cones/agility and such drills.

Yeah, his stutter is the go to move, but he doesn't understand when to use it.  I wanted to show it off in some clips to show that he doesn't understand the effect of it on the defender.  When some guy is 5 yards back, the stutter has absolutely no effect because he has enough space to wait and see where he goes.  I wanted to see more straight in or out cuts, but bad camera angles skewed a few opportunities.  

5 hours ago, #27TheDominator said:

Doesn't necessarily mean he is scared.  Maybe it is a financial decision.  We will know better after the draft.  If Humphery dumps way out and JJAW goes high, he may have made the right decision, even if we don't like it. 

It could be, although usually teams would want guys to test so they know how agile they are, or how they fit in the group.  I put him high because with pass interference rules, plus open system, I think this kid can be a red zone monster.  

4 hours ago, Paradis said:

It means he's hiding his numbers to keep his draft stock up... as a personal decision between him and his agent-- of course. I might even do the same. 

As a GM or fan? Fck'im. 

I'll take a gamble on Humphrey over a JJAW.... cause at least i know what I'm getting. 

I thought Humphrey would run faster, but with that speed, I see him dropping quite a bit.

3 hours ago, JiF said:

It's early on Chark.  He was in a terrible offense with the worst QB play in the league. 

He did have a terrible team, so yeah, still early.  I thought he'd fit better with a team that actually had a QB.  

3 hours ago, Paradis said:

Yea that is weird.

So who are you getting behind this year? Who's you list of guys you feel strongly about? 

Oh let's see:  I don't really scout OL/DT because the interior is hard to tell on tape and really relies on the guy next standing against you.  I just didn't have the time, and find it boring.  

Hakeem Butler:  I think he's a monster player.  Metcalf has higher upside, but if you put a gun to my head and say who's the best receiver from this class, I would go with Butler.  

David Long:  I already did a scouting report on him as well, but I think he's criminally underrated.  I don't think he's a first round guy, but he has tools and production.  He's not flashy, but a very solid No. 2 corner.  

Arcega-Whiteside:  I love the red zone upside.  

Emmanuel Hall:  I had him as a sleeper but he blew up at the combine, which certainly moved him up.  He's not a finished project, but the tools are elite.  I think it's a case where Lock's up and down nature hurt him.  He's somewhat redundant with Robby Anderson, but that's who I think he will be like, and probably not picked by us.  

RB; Honestly, I don't know.  I didn't really deep dive in because Jets were favorites for Bell and Titans had Henry/Lewis.  I read scouting reports on a few, and people seem to love Miles Sanders but figured it wasn't a big deal for the 2 teams I follow, so didn't care much to spend time.  

DE: It's easy to like the top guys because most believe a guy like Bosa is going to be good.  I liked Winovich, but he's blown up to the point that I think he is going in the first so I'll avoid him.  I loved him as a 2nd rd guy because his speed off the line and overpowering tackles were great.  However at first round value, I wish he had another pass rushing move.  

Jachai Polite:  I love his tape, I hate what happened at combine/pro day.  I'm completely torn on this one.  Just based on tape, I think he's going to be a very good pass rusher.  But I don't think you could have had a worse combine short of committing a crime.  This one I've gone back and forth on.

Jalen Hurd:  It wasn't as much for his size/speed scale, but I thought he would provide a great wrinkle in an offense with his rushing ability because him and Bell could really manipulate defenses, since both would be great receivers.  I think they were thinking similarly too because Montgomery signed right near the time Hurd visited the Jets.  

Although I haven't gone quite as deep because I assume the Jets are picking an edge guy at 3 or wherever they trade down.

CB: Jimmy Moreland- Small school guy with red flags, but love the potential.  For CBs, I like taking high upside athletes in the mid rounds and see if you can get a steal.   

Didn't bother with safeties or tight ends.  So yeah:

Butler

Long

Whiteside

Hall

Polite (This one Idk because idk what happened after the season - Just based on tape and how he's projected to fall)

Hurd

Moreland

 

1 hour ago, #27TheDominator said:

Interesting.  I picked Landry (1st) and MVS (6th) for the Ravens in the JN mock.  Only passed on Chark because he went early.

I was shocked Landry fell out of the first but his bend is elite level good.  He would have been perfect had the Jets lost one more game and didn't have to trade up.  

MVS is my sleeper to break out this year, with Cobb gone and McCarthy out as well.  

1 hour ago, Peace Frog said:

That’s impossible. 

Lol

[#27TheDominator]

7 hours ago, win4ever said:

Butler

Long

Whiteside

Hall

Polite (This one Idk because idk what happened after the season - Just based on tape and how he's projected to fall)

Hurd

Moreland 

Nice!  I took Hurd in the JN mock (sorry @Paradis) and really wanted Hall and Long.  I am too much of a combine guy to fall for Polite, but he is primed for the kind of drop that may make for some value.  He timed horrifically, but his first step is no joke.  Hakeem Butler really does seem to have the goods, but Jimmy Moreland is pretty teeny.  Like slot sized only.  His reach is like half a foot off Seahawks requirements.  James Madison isn't too far from DC, so I saw some stuff about him, but I don't dig enough to know him well.  Usually when guys arms are that short, I'd like so see some bench reps. 

I went with Alex Barnes as my RB.  I think he dropped to the 7th, or late 6th.  Seems crazy to me, but the way the JN mock fell, I was pretty sure he would last.  You can kind of cheat, because I think about half the guys lose interest and go off the spreadsheet for the last few rounds, and he was listed very low there.

Quote

I was shocked Landry fell out of the first but his bend is elite level good.  He would have been perfect had the Jets lost one more game and didn't have to trade up.  

MVS is my sleeper to break out this year, with Cobb gone and McCarthy out as well. 

I don't know about MVS.  That piece on McCarthy giving up in Green Bay had a long section where MVS (MV$?) said he was getting blackballed by Rodgers.  He supposedly told teammates that Rodgers hated him.  It supposedly stemmed from his running the routes as called by McCarthy and not changing it to whatever Rodgers wanted with some eye movements or something.  With McCarthy gone, maybe it will be better, but Rodgers seems petty and vindictive enough for it not to matter, and we know he can carry a grudge for ages.

[#27TheDominator]

18 hours ago, win4ever said:

Boykin is one guy I definitely don't see the speed on tape.  He has the athletic build, but his tape makes me cautious on him.  I didn't see that redeeming quality of him dominating CBs and for someone with his height/speed/agility/explosiveness score, should definitely had better tape.  It's also really hard to scout with these angles sometimes, but the company that runs the All 22 won't release it. 

BTW, I totally agree that you can't really see Boykin's speed on tape.  If he were just a size/speed guy, I would probably have ignored him.  My current slant was to get hung up on agility numbers.  A big guy with that kind of suddenness is pretty rare and he supposedly has the right attitude to get coached up.  Of course, I felt the same way about Conley who isn't a bust, but is about as meh as it gets.

Another guy I have been interested in is Jeff Smith, the ex-QB from BC.  He is more a gadget guy, but he has great physical numbers and a crazy TD to touch rate.  19+ypc, 6 TDs on 20 catches, plus a rushing and passing TD.  Supposedly "inconsistent" hands though.  I am all over him if he is an UDFA. FWIW, a bunch of teams had him in for visits, including the Vikings, Saints, Packers and your Titans.

[win4ever]

I don't know about MVS.  That piece on McCarthy giving up in Green Bay had a long section where MVS (MV$?) said he was getting blackballed by Rodgers.  He supposedly told teammates that Rodgers hated him.  It supposedly stemmed from his running the routes as called by McCarthy and not changing it to whatever Rodgers wanted with some eye movements or something.  With McCarthy gone, maybe it will be better, but Rodgers seems petty and vindictive enough for it not to matter, and we know he can carry a grudge for ages.

Idk why the app is only quoting half the response, I demand a refund!

Hall is someone I'm super excited about because he shows the ability to do the underneath routes at times but they rarely went to it.

I was ok on Polite, thought maybe mid first guy kinda like Burns/Sweat at best but he was flat out horrible at the combine. I only like him if he's in the 3rd because then he has the upside to be worth the risk. Kinda reminds me of Brown last year from Oklahoma. Great tape, terrible combine, but Polite seems to have immaturity issues as well.

Butler is my big bet, did one on him as Brandon Marshall and I can't get the comp out of my head.

Moreland is more of a philosophy thing. I hate taking corners that lack physical ability, especially agility like Juston Burris. No point in getting a press corner that can't stay with a receiver. It's a shot in the dark, and certainly has red flags but figured his athletic profile makes him a great slot corner candidate.

To be honest, I have no clue with this RB draft. Aside from reading a few tidbits and listening to some podcasts, I haven't looked into it at all.

The MVS love comes from LeFleur for me since I wrote about the Titans. The Shanahan/McVay offense needs a deep threat to utilize the game plans. A guy that holds the safeties, so everything underneath can open up. In Atlanta, Shanahan brought in Taylor Gabriel, and then in SF brought in Goodwin. McVay brought in Watkins, and then Cooks. They push the ball downfield unless the defense adjusts. Lafleur didn't have that last year with Titans because Taywan Taylor is fast but not good at tracking the ball down the field. In a more structured offense for Rodgers, I think they push it down the field more until teams adjust, and I think MVS is the best deep threat there. I don't think he's going to be like WR1 on any fantasy team but I'm thinking he has a chance at WR2 on a squad, assuming the offense stays true to LeFleur.

[win4ever]

BTW, I totally agree that you can't really see Boykin's speed on tape.  If he were just a size/speed guy, I would probably have ignored him.  My current slant was to get hung up on agility numbers.  A big guy with that kind of suddenness is pretty rare and he supposedly has the right attitude to get coached up.  Of course, I felt the same way about Conley who isn't a bust, but is about as meh as it gets.
Another guy I have been interested in is Jeff Smith, the ex-QB from BC.  He is more a gadget guy, but he has great physical numbers and a crazy TD to touch rate.  19+ypc, 6 TDs on 20 catches, plus a rushing and passing TD.  Supposedly "inconsistent" hands though.  I am all over him if he is an UDFA. FWIW, a bunch of teams had him in for visits, including the Vikings, Saints, Packers and your Titans.

I'm just clueless about Boykin because I just don't see the separation for his speed nor the spectacular catches for his size. A few guys I respect like Matt Harmon love him, but I just don't see it. Maybe I'm wrong, wouldn't be the first lol, but I can't seem to buy into him. I look into his game film and always come away with "eh".

Yeah he's an UDFA target, although love that speed. I'm a sucker for speed lol. A late round UDFA guy I was tracking was Xavier Ubosi but his metrics were pure garbage, which dropped him from my radar.