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Why do you hate Leonard Williams?


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Just now, jetstream23 said:

We agree there.  The Jets aren't good enough to get rid of any above average players.  The question with Leo will be cost/benefit and what kind of contract he's looking for.

As I’ve said. He’ll get paid the market value of a guy his talent so you’re either paying him, paying someone better more, paying a similar player around the same, paying a worse player less or hoping a rookie can play. 

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27 minutes ago, T0mShane said:

How do you look at that list and the one guy you try to attack is Julio Jones? 

Saying he's very good but not a guaranteed HOFer constitutes an "attack" in your world? 

Typical chickenhawk.  *shakes head*

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3 hours ago, jetstream23 said:

I like him. But if he was the 20th pick instead of 6th he’d be universally loved. We thought we hit a lottery ticket when he dropped but he’s simply been very good without being Aaron Donald or Fletcher Cox.

Honestly, I’m expecting a career year under Gregg Williams. We’re also about to overpay him. Watch. 

I've thought it was a foregone conclusion for a while now.  

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3 hours ago, batman10023 said:

I just was the high bid in a charity auction for an autograph poster of him.  So I hope he stays. 

Set me back five bucks which tells you what folks think of him. 

I'll trade you my signed Clyde Gates photo for it.  Once a hot item in the Jets Rewards program.  

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no hate at all, solid player, safe draft pick, who was terribly mismanaged and coached by the worst DC in franchise history

Mac added Leo to a team with Mo and Sheldon and should have traded one or both after making the pick - Mac proceeded to overpay Mo, the coaching staff enabled a culture of Zero accountability and played Sheldon out of position to ruin what could have been a dominant Dline 

Leo and Sheldon are textbook examples where BPA has to be conditional - lost opportunities when the team had so many other needs...

Beasley, Gurley, Peat all had similar value and filled a bigger need than Leo

 

my guess is we will be having a similar conversation about Quinnen Williams in about four years

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10 hours ago, Pac said:

So let's hope he has a career year so you can trade him.

Makes sense...  

Actually wait...  that's a pretty stupid ******* idea. 

Don't need a career year out of him.  A "career year" for Leonard Williams likely won't lead to elite production out of a DT anyways, because he's only equipped to do so much.  We just need for him to convert a few of those QB pressures he had last year into sacks so we can trick a dumb team into giving us a 1st rounder.

He isn't a special enough player for people to be fawning over him, nor should we be looking to dump him for whatever we can get right away.  There's a middle ground here that homers like you fail to see, apparently.

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9 hours ago, Pac said:

You're more realistic than many but this myth that 6th overall selections are bonafide studs has to stop.

Here's the last 18....  Julio is very good but hardly a sure-fire are the hall of famer.  The rest run the spectrum from bust to good. 

If anything this list makes Macc look pretty damn good. 

  • 2018  Quenten Nelson G Colts
  • 2017  Jamal Adams S Jets 
  • 2016  Ronnie Stanley Ravens
  • 2015  Leonard Williams DT Jets
  • 2014  Jake Matthews T Falcons
  • 2013  Barkevious Mingo DE Browns 
  • 2012  Morris Claiborne CB Dallas
  • 2011  Julio Jones WR Falcons
  • 2010  Russel Okung OT Seattle 
  • 2009  Andre Smith OT Bengals
  • 2008  Vernon Gholston DE Jets
  • 2007  LaRon Landry S LSU (SAFETY THIS HIGH!!)
  • 2006  Vernon Davis TE SF
  • 2005  Pacman Jones Bengals
  • 2004  Kellen Winslow TE Browns 
  • 2003  Johnathan Sullivan DT KC
  • 2002  Ryan Sims  DT KC 
  • 2001  Richard Seymour DE NE 
  • 2000  Corey Simon DT 
          
         
         
         
         
         
         
         
         
         
         
         
         
     

 

Other GM's have failed so Macc is actually good. 

Look, maybe if Macc hadn't been an utter disaster with basically all of his other picks, the Leonard Williams selection would be fine.  But he didn't, so now the Jets have to make a decision on whether they consider him a franchise player or not.  Because of the lack of other homegrown talent on the roster, they probably will end up paying him a lot more than he's worth.

Unless of course we do the right thing and have another GM make that decision in 2020.

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Don't forget that we had big Kris Jenkins, and then for a few seasons had The Sons of Anarchy? Hell even Mike DeVito seemed to always be around the football. Leonard Williams is not a bad player he's just not dominant. He doesn't stand out. It's hard to follow Jenkins, Wilkerson, Richardson, Snacks Harrison, and then come in as the Lite yogurt Disney version of a defensive lineman. He's just been underwhelming.

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It's not hate. Its disappointment. He is a good, not great player. He is a solid contributor to the defense, he isnt a game changer. Good players get QB pressures. Game changers get the sack. I think most peoples issue has to do with him not reaching what he was projected to be when he was drafted, which isnt his fault. If he was selected where we took Lee, it would likely be a different story. We justified taking Leo when we were stacked at the position because he was supposedly a level of talent you just couldnt pass up. He isn't.

I like Leo. He has been a solid Jet. The biggest issue is that good players aren't worth the contract he will likely demand. Henry Anderson has been more of a game changer than Leo in one season and he cost a 7th and half the money. 

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The actual answer to this question is pretty simple.  And obviously, it’s more about disappointment than hate, despite the fact that the halfwits can’t tell the difference.

There’s sort of a cycle of hope that keeps fans engaged and excited.  Your team is garbage, so you’re rewarded with the hope of a great new player via a high draft pick.

Well, the Jets have been garbage for a while now, and Williams hasn’t turned into a guy that balanced the scales.  Adams, for the more optimistic, to a degree has, but in reality hasn’t as his addition has changed nothing.  Darnold, ultimately, is what we’ve got, out of all these years of being terrible.

Ultimately, all we want is a couple of guys who are genuinely good.  Not a collection of players we need to make a bunch of excuses for to justify why they really, secretly, are great it’s just that you can’t see it on the field.  Leonard Williams is the epitome of that. 

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20 minutes ago, Greenbloodblitz said:

Don't forget that we had big Kris Jenkins, and then for a few seasons had The Sons of Anarchy? Hell even Mike DeVito seemed to always be around the football. Leonard Williams is not a bad player he's just not dominant. He doesn't stand out. It's hard to follow Jenkins, Wilkerson, Richardson, Snacks Harrison, and then come in as the Lite yogurt Disney version of a defensive lineman. He's just been underwhelming.

Exactly, and as the 4th DT drafted in the first in 5 years, he turned out to be the third best of the bunch, beating out only Coples. In fairness, Williams is certainly far more mentally stable than either Wilkerson or Richardson, which was a nice change of pace, but they were both superior athletes.

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9 hours ago, Pac said:

You're more realistic than many but this myth that 6th overall selections are bonafide studs has to stop.

Here's the last 18....  Julio is very good but hardly a sure-fire are the hall of famer.  The rest run the spectrum from bust to good.

     

I think your list did advance the conversation, but your description shows that rather than being reasonable, you just attack from the other side.  Julio Jones is just very good?  The guy has like 5 seasons averaging over 100 ypg.  He will finish as top 20 in every receiving category and is as gold blazer as it gets.  Saying he is only "very good" is pretty close to saying Leonard Williams sucks.  Because Jones is certainly considerably better. 

I don't think any of us actually think that Williams sucks.  I think he is a good to very good player.  I also don't think that he warrants a huge contract.  A very good player that does not really move the needle on the W/L record.  It is the same problem many of us have with Adams.  Is Leonard Williams a very good player?  Sure.  If we had 22 guys as good at their position as he is, we would be a very good team. 

OTOH, how many wins does that get us over replacement value?  If his replacement is someone like Henry Anderson, I'd argue absolutely none.  If that is the case, I would rather have the $15M/year and the 2nd round pick or whatever we'd get.  I certainly don't hate him and I'd be happy to have him on the team, I just believe the assets could be better allocated elsewhere.

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To further my previous point - I don't hate Williams, but I think that trading him to fill a need would be the smart move, assuming we can get a decent pick.  3/4 of this board is advocating either taking offensive linemen at 3 or moving down to take lesser prospects at 15 or so at less than book value.  Stated purpose?  To finally emphasize offense.  It is a stupid waste of resources, but whatever.  

If you want to properly emphasize offense, wouldn't it make more sense to trade Williams and then use the pick and the $15M to fill holes?  That way, you still maximize the opportunity to get a HOF caliber player on their rookie deal and can use the money and draft pick(s) to fill holes.  Makes sense to me, but I guess I am just a mindless, defense obsessed, Maccagnan hater.  

The only problem I see with this theory is that Williams might not get us such a great pick.  If we can't even get a 2nd, is it worth it?  Maybe, maybe not, but if his value is low, it certainly does not land on the side of "Leonard Williams is a great pick, why do you all hate him?!"

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14 minutes ago, #27TheDominator said:

The only problem I see with this theory is that Williams might not get us such a great pick.  If we can't even get a 2nd, is it worth it?  Maybe, maybe not, but if his value is low, it certainly does not land on the side of "Leonard Williams is a great pick, why do you all hate him?!"

Exactly.  I get that Bowles was the cause of everything that ailed us to many here, but you would think that his super secret gifted powers would have appeared by now.  Or, that smart GM's around the league would recognize Leonard is actually awesome, and be happy to send us a late 1st rounder for him. 

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I don't get the hate either. He is one of the best defensive players on the team. Jets fans should know the type of impact he makes without him having to pile up sacks. And look, I get it, the hype was immense. Best payer in the draft falls to the Jets at 6. We all thought he was going to have one foot in the HOF by year 3. 

And guys talking about overpaying him. That's a relative term. He's not going to get a massive contract like Demarcus Lawrence (21mil). He's going to get a deal close to what the open market commands for a guy who as @nico002  stated is a productive YOUNG pro bowler who has no character concerns and stays on the field. NEWSFASH- THIS IS WHAT THESE PLAYERS COST TO KEEP ON YOUR TEAM! 

And I also don't understand this concept of 'well, we're going to replace him with QW who we pick at #3'. REALLY? Nobody knows what type of player QW will turn out to be. Isn't one of the knocks on QW that he has not played enough football to truly show how he can improve and be a consistent player. He had one full season in college where he was surrounded my immense defensive talent. That's it. Did he play great? Yes. Do I love his tape? Yes. I have nothing against him. But this notion that he is simply going to replace Leonard Williams is silly. Nobody knows. you CAN'T know. We haven't seen it. 

So NO you don't trade him for a late first round or second round pick. You let him play out this season so he can show what he can do to earn a new contract and then you make a decision. 

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12 hours ago, kevinc855 said:

I don’t. He’s a great player 

I like him ok...I'm disappointed in his overall performance as it doesn't match his draft hype/position. He's solid but unspectacular. I'm curious what makes you think he's a "great" player. I just don't see it.

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15 minutes ago, PepPep said:

And guys talking about overpaying him. That's a relative term. He's not going to get a massive contract like Demarcus Lawrence (21mil). He's going to get a deal close to what the open market commands for a guy who as @nico002  stated is a productive YOUNG pro bowler who has no character concerns and stays on the field. NEWSFASH- THIS IS WHAT THESE PLAYERS COST TO KEEP ON YOUR TEAM!

Which is why you hope to draft well, have a pipeline of guys, and not have to pay what the open market rate (always too much) for a one time pro-bowl alternate who doesn't move the needle towards winning.

Similarly, you hope not to be in a position have to pay CJ Mosely 85M, but here we are.

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1 hour ago, #27TheDominator said:

I think your list did advance the conversation, but your description shows that rather than being reasonable, you just attack from the other side.  Julio Jones is just very good?  The guy has like 5 seasons averaging over 100 ypg.  He will finish as top 20 in every receiving category and is as gold blazer as it gets.  Saying he is only "very good" is pretty close to saying Leonard Williams sucks.  Because Jones is certainly considerably better. 

I don't think any of us actually think that Williams sucks.  I think he is a good to very good player.  I also don't think that he warrants a huge contract.  A very good player that does not really move the needle on the W/L record.  It is the same problem many of us have with Adams.  Is Leonard Williams a very good player?  Sure.  If we had 22 guys as good at their position as he is, we would be a very good team. 

OTOH, how many wins does that get us over replacement value?  If his replacement is someone like Henry Anderson, I'd argue absolutely none.  If that is the case, I would rather have the $15M/year and the 2nd round pick or whatever we'd get.  I certainly don't hate him and I'd be happy to have him on the team, I just believe the assets could be better allocated elsewhere.

You're doubling down on Shane's idiotic point?  I said hes very good but not a sure fire hall of famer..  is that supposed to be a knock? 

Hes not a sure fire hall of famer at this point.  Do I think hes better at his position than William's?  Duh...

You're doing whatever it is you just accused me of lol.

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6 minutes ago, Pac said:

You're doubling down on Shane's idiotic point?  I said hes very good but not a sure fire hall of famer..  is that supposed to be a knock? 

Hes not a sure fire hall of famer at this point.  Do I think hes better at his position than William's?  Duh...

You're doing whatever it is you just accused me of lol.

This is literally all wrong.

Knock or not, it is incorrect.  Jones is 8 years and 100+ games into his career and is #1 all time in yards per game.  97 ypg.  He is going to the Hall of Fame.  By describing this all-time great as "very good" you make it very difficult to describe an above average player like Williams as very good.  That is what I accused you of, please tell me how I am doing it?  

If your only argument is that Williams was a good draft pick, I see your point.  Beyond that?  Why can't anyone complain about him now, or suggest moving him while he still has some value?  He is better than Vernon Gholston.  How much good will is that supposed to warrant?

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13 hours ago, T0mShane said:

I think the more interesting question is why Jets fans feel the constant need to lay out for millionaire athletes on their team who are marginal players relative to the rest of the league. Every team in the league has a player similar to or better than Leonard Williams. He’s a stout defensive lineman that occasionally gets some push on the QB. Go look at what Chris Jones does for the Chiefs, or Fletcher Cox does for the Eagles. Leonard was drafted to be like those guys and he’s not on the same planet as those dudes. 

This.

I neither love nor hate Williams.  Even the use of those terms is just creepy-fan levels of silly.  He's a player on the team I root for, my interest in him extends only so far as what he brings to my team in terms of production on the field.

And the reason he is not generally beloved is he is simply not an impactful or game-changing kind of player in any way.  He's a moderately less impactful Shaun Ellis.  Effective to a degree against the run, but at best gets "pressure" stats, not sacks, and rarely (in my watching of the game) impacts the game in a meaningful way or at meaningful times.  Which is fine, teams need role players, but he was widely hyped here as being much more than that, and he simply isn't.  He will not be worth a large contract to retain barring material improvement.

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22 hours ago, New York Mick said:

You already know how good he is under Williams?

Mick,   I have seen 4 years of Leo,,,,If it takes a coach to motivate you to play better that should say all you need to know. He doesn't have the proverbial "heart". He is not a 14 million dollar a year player and if you can get a 2nd for him you do it, but you will never get a 2nd for him, he is not that good.....

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Just now, Eaton Beaver said:

Mick,   I have seen 4 years of Leo,,,,If it takes a coach to motivate you to play better that should say all you need to know. He doesn't have the proverbial "heart". He is not a 14 million dollar a year player and if you can get a 2nd for him you do it, but you will never get a 2nd for him, he is not that good.....

Then he won’t get 14 million a year 

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My opinion on Leonard Williams has not changed in the slightest, and I don't hate the guy at all, but there is now literally no reason to keep him on the roster.  You're certainly not going to give him a big payday now, and having either Anderson or Quinnen riding the bench for a guy with one foot out the door is a waste of everyone's time.  Might as well get whatever you can for him now.

Oh well.

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I don't think anybody hates him. He's just not worth the $15-$17 million he's going to want in an extension. I'd rather get something for him now that will help this team for at least the next 4 years then lose him for nothing. The Jets aren't getting any comp picks for him bc they'll be spending next free agency as well.


And he won’t get that....from us. You don’t give DT’s that 2nd contract, you draft DT’s and hopefully trade them for value before that rookie contract is up. If we get a 2nd for him, which given how many went in the 1st tonight is a real possibility, then we essentially keep playing high value DT’s at a low cost and parlay them into 2nd round value when we’re done with them. The only mistake would be to pay Leo his 2nd contract after drafting Quinnen.


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