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51 minutes ago, Dcat said:

I have no idea why everyone persists with the false belief that they all "knew" the Giants were taking Barkley.  Nobody knew, least of all our doofus who doesn't even know the Dunkin' Donuts is trash.  What Mac did, and it was somewhat wise, was ensure us of one of 4 highly rated QBs, but neither Mayfield nor Darnold.  The horshoe, I believe, was getting either Mayfield or Darnold and that was contingent on the Giants.  There's your hoseshoe right there.  It had nothing to do with Cleveland. In fact for the 48 hours prior to the draft it was fairly well publicized that Cleveland was leaning Mayfield.  SO there was no huge surprise there.

When it can be proven that Mac "knew" what Gettleman was going to do, then get back to me.  If you and the others want to live that dream, that Mac strategically got us Darnold (LOL, LOL, LOL) then enjoy the fantasy.  I know it makes people feel better about being saddled with this dunce as GM to pretend he has a clue.   Well he doesn't.

I'll be the last person to put Macc on a pedestal.  The Jets have been bad enough for years to perennially put themselves in range of the top prospects in the Draft.  To me, Macc gets credit for two things, sticking to a BPA approach that had him get a #2 prospect (Leo Williams) at #6, a #4 prospect (Adams) at #6, a #2 prospect (Darnold) at #3, and a #1 prospect (Quinnen) at #3; and the trade up that put him in range for Darnold/Mayfield.

Now, do those things absolve him of all his other failings?  Nope.  Not really close in fact (although Darnold is his golden egg and likely the only reason he's still employed here). I won't regurgitate the list but we all know of his countless swings and misses in most of the rounds after the 1st.  He's also misfired on some free agents (either wrong guy or wrong contract value) like Crowell, Trumaine Johnson (so far), etc.  But if I'm going to put him on blast for his repeated fumbles them I will give credit where it's due (including some decent value trades like Henry Anderson, Brandon Marshall, etc.).  They need to keep Mr. Horseshoe around for Round 1 each year and then kick him out of the room after the pick is made.

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1 hour ago, CTM said:

Almost 0% chance  gentlemen knew for sure he was taking Barkley prior to his pro day or visit with Giants.

 

When did he visit the Giants?

Besides if he fell in "full bloom love" with Daniel Jones at the Senior Bowl without a visit, then it could have happened with Barkley too.

As for the horseshoe up the ass comment, I think that refers to the fact that they preferred Darnold over Mayfield and were shocked Cleveland passed on Darnold

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1 minute ago, UnitedWhofans said:

When did he visit the Giants?

10 days after the trade was final and a month after it was being negotiated .

Timeline is above 

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17 hours ago, CTM said:

Of course it's not mutually exclusive but its related, and the interpretation is conveniently pro Mac by a noted pro Mac guy. Whofans decided it "confirmed" Mac knew the giants werent taking a QB (weeks prior to draft) despite Mac never saying that explicitely. But what he did explicitely say was that he was surprised the Browns took Mayfield that night.

 The idea that anyone thinks he exactly knew what Gettleman was doing weeks out but had no clue what Dorsey was doing night of is far fetched.

Fun fact: Even if the plan was to take Barkley all along, perhaps a team that loved Darnold, once he was on the board at 2, calls the Giants and blows them away with an RGIII like offer.

Macc guaranteed Allen or Rosen.  We all were fortunate he got Darnold.

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Just now, TeddEY said:

Fun fact: Even if the plan was to take Barkley all along, perhaps a team that loved Darnold, once he was on the board at 2, calls the Giants and blows them away with an RGIII like offer.

Macc guaranteed Allen or Rosen.  We all were fortunate he got Darnold.

Now THAT is the best point for it being lucky that ANYBODY has made in this whole thing. Although if I recall the Giants refused to take calls

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10 minutes ago, TeddEY said:

Fun fact: Even if the plan was to take Barkley all along, perhaps a team that loved Darnold, once he was on the board at 2, calls the Giants and blows them away with an RGIII like offer.

Macc guaranteed Allen or Rosen.  We all were fortunate he got Darnold.

Macc deserves criticism, but in this case, he deserves all the credit for moving up to 3 before the draft last  year.  He effectively boxed out a lot of teams who were taken by surprise a month out from the draft.  That was a power move, and the best of his tenure here.  Making it seem like luck does a disservice to how great that trade was.

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Hey guys. Just gonna stash some of these here. For no reason. 

 

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18 minutes ago, Phillyjet said:

Macc deserves criticism, but in this case, he deserves all the credit for moving up to 3 before the draft last  year.  He effectively boxed out a lot of teams who were taken by surprise a month out from the draft.  That was a power move, and the best of his tenure here.  Making it seem like luck does a disservice to how great that trade was.

It had an element of luck because Gettleman doing something different wouldve netted us a QB we couldve gotten at 6 for the cost of 3 2's. 

Also, this assumes Darnold has a better career than both Allen and Rosen which while early returns are positive it's hardly a given at this point.

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1 minute ago, CTM said:

It was luck because Gettleman doing something different wouldve netted us a QB we couldve gotten at 6 for the cost of 3 2's. 

Also, this assumes Darnold has a better career than both Allen and Rosen which while early returns are positive it's hardly a given at this point.

You are what your record says you are.

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1 minute ago, Scott Dierking said:

You are what your record says you are.

So 24-40

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39 minutes ago, UnitedWhofans said:

 Now THAT is the best point for it being lucky that ANYBODY has made in this whole thing. Although if I recall the Giants refused to take calls

The best point for it being lucky is that it was in fact lucky.  That's okay.  It's okay to get lucky and there's nothing to apologize for.

Because, there's no way he could have known with certainty, and no one actually believes he did, they're just saying so to suit their argument.  Why?  Because, the same people say everything before the draft is a smokescreen/needs to be taken with a grain of salt.

I really don't know why this is an ongoing debate.  If QW turns into a super star, we're lucky that Arizona hit the reset button and that SF took Nick Bosa.

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1 minute ago, TeddEY said:

The best point for it being lucky is that it was in fact lucky.  That's okay.  It's okay to get lucky and there's nothing to apologize for.

Because, there's no way he could have known with certainty, and no one actually believes he did, they're just saying so to suit their argument.  Why?  Because, the same people say everything before the draft is a smokescreen/needs to be taken with a grain of salt.

I really don't know why this is an ongoing debate.  If QW turns into a super star, we're lucky that Arizona hit the reset button and that SF took Nick Bosa.

If Dons Shula and the Dolphins cover the field, there is every likelihood that the Jets are 2 time SB champions.

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33 minutes ago, Phillyjet said:

Macc deserves criticism, but in this case, he deserves all the credit for moving up to 3 before the draft last  year.  He effectively boxed out a lot of teams who were taken by surprise a month out from the draft That was a power move, and the best of his tenure here.  Making it seem like luck does a disservice to how great that trade was.

The outcome was great.  The trade itself could have easily netted Allen/Rosen.  Pretending this isn't true doesn't make it any less true.

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Just now, Scott Dierking said:

If Dons Shula and the Dolphins cover the field, there is every likelihood that the Jets are 2 time SB champions.

Ok...  What's your point?  That we shouldn't/can't play the what if game?  This is a conversation about whether luck was involved and a pretty pointless one, at that.  But, it doesn't change the fact that if we're talking about credit for moves, you ought to consider all the possibilities.

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4 minutes ago, TeddEY said:

Ok...  What's your point?  That we shouldn't/can't play the what if game?  This is a conversation about whether luck was involved and a pretty pointless one, at that.  But, it doesn't change the fact that if we're talking about credit for moves, you ought to consider all the possibilities.

The point is, there are all kinds of "what ifs" in life and sports. As I said earlier, you are what your record says you are.

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2 minutes ago, Scott Dierking said:

The point is, there are all kinds of "what ifs" in life and sports. As I said earlier, you are what your record says you are.

So, we agree.  A complete failure.

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5 minutes ago, Scott Dierking said:

If you want to put words in my mouth, ok.

Well, if you are what your record says you are, how is Macc not a complete failure?

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1 minute ago, TeddEY said:

Well, if you are what your record says you are, how is Macc not a complete failure?

In the past record, that is true. As I have said in this thread, the QB and if he ascends, gives the Jets a puncher's chance at being "good" this year. That is where we are.

 

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This is silly.  Luck counts in GM drafting.

Is the point to prove that Macc has made 100% bad moves?   Is 99% not enough?

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44 minutes ago, dcJet said:

This is silly.  Luck counts in GM drafting.

Is the point to prove that Macc has made 100% bad moves?   Is 99% not enough?

The point is that Macc deserves very little credit for it and should have been fired.  Meanwhile, there are still fans out there who say the us getting Darnold means Macc DESERVED to keep his job.  When one lucky circumstance is pretty much the only positive thing you can say about the job he's done, he shouldn't get to keep one of the 32 most important positions in football. 

The right move was to thank him for us ending up with Darnold and show him the door.  Not bring him back and let him have a say in who the next HC would be. 

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I think the conversation of our QB as it relates to our GM begins and ends with fact that his plan A was to sign Cousins.  That was his strategy.  That's what he wanted.  The trade up with the Colts saved his job and there's been plenty of reporting that indicates he was minimally involved in negotiating the deal, only signing off on it.  Take it as you will.

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1 hour ago, dcJet said:

That was the greatest trade in Jets history.  

 

 

2 hours ago, Phillyjet said:

Macc deserves criticism, but in this case, he deserves all the credit for moving up to 3 before the draft last  year.  He effectively boxed out a lot of teams who were taken by surprise a month out from the draft.  That was a power move, and the best of his tenure here.  Making it seem like luck does a disservice to how great that trade was. 

 

Yes, Heimerdinger did a great job making that trade. 

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3 hours ago, Dcat said:

Luck.  Had the Giants taken Darnold, the Jets would have Josh (most likely Allen).  Darnold was luck.  trading to the top 3 ensured a QB, not Darnold. And that is a fact, not an opinion.

I get they might have wound up with Darnold, Baker or Allen.  We would have been fine with any of them, got the one I wanted. 

And if they stayed at 6 they might have wound up with nobody.  Wouldnt have cried with any of the other two.  And they only reason we were in position is because of the trade.  You can call it luck, I'm glad we moved up and got him.

 

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The Jets traded up for Baker- not Darnold. They assumed Darnold was going #1 (at the time of the trade EVERYONE did). 

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1 hour ago, Scott Dierking said:

In the past record, that is true. As I have said in this thread, the QB and if he ascends, gives the Jets a puncher's chance at being "good" this year. That is where we are.

 

And if the QB takes a sophomore slump? I don’t think he will but even if Sam takes a small step forward from last year this team is barely .500. What about that would be good? Unless you think his roster could make the playoffs. 

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3 hours ago, Phillyjet said:

Macc deserves criticism, but in this case, he deserves all the credit for moving up to 3 before the draft last  year.  He effectively boxed out a lot of teams who were taken by surprise a month out from the draft.  That was a power move, and the best of his tenure here.  Making it seem like luck does a disservice to how great that trade was.

It Only worked out Great because we got Darnold... If Mayfield & Darnold were Both off the board that trade would have been HORRENDOUS. 

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20 hours ago, CTM said:

Ok, so it was widely reported that the initial outline of the trade was put together during the scouting combine which was the end of Feb. The trade was consummated on 3/17/18, almost 6 weeks prior to the 4/26 draft.

For your version of events to be true, the same guy who was "surprised" by the Mayfield pick on draft night, somehow knew 2 months in advance that Gettleman was taking Barkley and he'd for sure have 1 of Darnold/Mayfield available to him.

  • Despite the fact that Barkley's pro day was 3/19, 2 days after the trade was official
  • Despite the fact that the Giants didn't host Barkley for a private workout until 3/27, 10 days after the trade was official

Sounds extremely likely. Hard to believe that such a prescient Gm has an extensive track record of incompetence.

People forget that at the time of the trade many people thought it was a lock that Cleveland would take Allen because he was "Doreseys kind of QB"

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3 minutes ago, johnnysd said:

People forget that at the time of the trade many people thought it was a lock that Cleveland would take Allen because he was "Doreseys kind of QB"

literally no one thought that, they thought he would take Darnold. That is a fact.

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