Daniel Jones vs Sam Darnold

[CheezeMCRow]

Here's all anyone really needs to know with how accurate these so-called team winners and losers are post-draft (from 2015 Leonard Williams draft:

http://www.nfl.com/news/story/0ap3000000490553/article/winners-from-the-2015-nfl-draft

[sackdance]

On 5/4/2019 at 1:58 PM, sec101row23 said:

Are we actually debating who is a better QB prospect, Daniel Jones or Sam Darnold?   

There's plenty of Jones/Haskins love in this nest of self-hate. 

That said, May is the deadest of off-season for pro football, so expect nonsense.  

[Jetsfan80]

23 hours ago, 14 in Green said:

Where did the Jets pick the year after they took Darnold at #3?

So that's an argument to take the RB over the QB?  The Jets' poor management?

Even if Darnold is a league-average QB, he'll be "the guy" here for like 15 years.  RB's don't stay healthy, and/or demand too much in their contract years.

[CheezeMCRow]

40 minutes ago, Jetsfan80 said:

So that's an argument to take the RB over the QB?  The Jets' poor management?

Even if Darnold is a league-average QB, he'll be "the guy" here for like 15 years.  RB's don't stay healthy, and/or demand too much in their contract years.

It's really going to come down to Daniel Jones, and what he becomes. If he's a dud, then gettleman looks like an ass clown. And if jones is indeed a franchise qb, then he's a hero for pairing him and saquon together for years, and no one will care less they passed over any qbs in 2018.

Although if darnold really is league average, as you say, then it looks like a no-brainer in history to take saquon. 

[14 in Green]

12 hours ago, Grandy said:

http://www.espn.com/nfl/draft2019/story/_/id/26356006/mcshay-qb-grades-2019-nfl-draft-class-vs-first-rounders-2016

https://amp.nfl.com/news/story/0ap3000000922045/article/top-10-qb-prospects-of-past-3-nfl-draft-classes-darnold-no-1?networkId=4595

I get being a skeptic, but cmon.

Not looking to argue here Grandy, but why would you call him a skeptic?

What is he being skeptical of exactly? Someone else's opinion?

He never said anything critical of Sam. I thought he was simply being measured in his opinion. Probably more realistic in his expectations for Darnold then a lot of people here are off of what he's done so far, if you ask me.

When someone doesn't buy 100% into the projective opinion another person has about a player, it doesn't mean that person is knocking the player, or doesn't like him.  

[14 in Green]

3 hours ago, Jetsfan80 said:

So that's an argument to take the RB over the QB?  The Jets' poor management?

Even if Darnold is a league-average QB, he'll be "the guy" here for like 15 years.  RB's don't stay healthy, and/or demand too much in their contract years.

No, Jets management has nothing to do with this, so don't go there. According to most here Giant management is worse then ours, remember?

The "argument I took" was was in reference to you saying "as special as Barkley is, the Giants were still picking 6th..."  I replied, asking you "then how special was Darnold if the Jets picked 3rd?" I thought that was a reasonable, and still unanswered question.

As for the second part of your above quoted post, we KNOW Barkley is a special player already. We're HOPING Darnold becomes one, despite the fact some people here are already "convinced" he is. There are RBs who have nice careers, and believe it or not, some even get 2nd contracts. I'd love to see the ratio of 1st round RBs getting second contracts as opposed to the ratio of 1st round QBs who bust.

Finally, if Darnold becomes a "League average QB", he won't be here 15 years. At least lets hope he isn't. That's not what average QBs do, unless they spend most of their career as a backup. Not to mention watching 15 years of average QB play isn't how I want to spend what could be my last years on earth as a Jets fan.

[Welp]

If your argument that Barkley is already a generational talent and franchise RB and your team hasn't done much better the next year and Darnold who is a QB that hasn't proved or shown much and the Jets are drafting in a similar position that just shows how stupid it is picking a RB is that high. Imagine if Darnold showed half as much talent as this generational RB that would mean the Jets would be in a much better position than the team with this franchise RB.

[14 in Green]

51 minutes ago, Welp said:

If your argument that Barkley is already a generational talent and franchise RB and your team hasn't done much better the next year and Darnold who is a QB that hasn't proved or shown much and the Jets are drafting in a similar position that just shows how stupid it is picking a RB is that high. Imagine if Darnold showed half as much talent as this generational RB that would mean the Jets would be in a much better position than the team with this franchise RB.

Or maybe it was that both teams were really bad. So bad in fact that one player wasn't going to change that fact in a single season. What we do know though is the Giants drafted a guy who became the Offensive ROY, and a All Pro. Its hard to do better then that, both with a pick, and as a player, isn't it?

There was nothing stupid about taking Barkley that high, unless you buy into the urban legend Jet fans promote. Here's a news flash. QBs enter the draft every single year. Just because the Giants didn't want to draft the one we took last year, it didn't mean they'd never get another chance to pick another one.

As for the Jets and Darnold? We shall wait and see how this all turns out. Most of us think we know, but no matter how convinced we say we are, we really don't yet know. Do we?

[playtowinthegame]

1 hour ago, 14 in Green said:

Or maybe it was that both teams were really bad. So bad in fact that one player wasn't going to change that fact in a single season. What we do know though is the Giants drafted a guy who became the Offensive ROY, and a All Pro. Its hard to do better then that, both with a pick, and as a player, isn't it?

There was nothing stupid about taking Barkley that high, unless you buy into the urban legend Jet fans promote. Here's a news flash. QBs enter the draft every single year. Just because the Giants didn't want to draft the one we took last year, it didn't mean they'd never get another chance to pick another one.

As for the Jets and Darnold? We shall wait and see how this all turns out. Most of us think we know, but no matter how convinced we say we are, we really don't yet know. Do we?

You're being fair in what you say, and logical. Personally I'd rather have Sam Darnold and Le'Veon Bell than Saquon Barkley and Daniel Jones. I'll say this @14 in Green, I'm glad Dave Gettleman selected Saquon Barkley at 1.2, so the Jets didn't have to pass on him, then select Josh Allen at 1.3. God willing Darnold takes a Goff like leap in year 2 under the guidance of Mad Martz's protege, Angry Adam Gase. If Darnold does and Bell is the offensive catalyst, then we are in for a great show in 2019.

[14 in Green]

23 minutes ago, playtowinthegame said:

You're being fair in what you say, and logical. Personally I'd rather have Sam Darnold and Le'Veon Bell than Saquon Barkley and Daniel Jones. I'll say this @14 in Green, I'm glad Dave Gettleman selected Saquon Barkley at 1.2, so the Jets didn't have to pass on him, then select Josh Allen at 1.3. God willing Darnold takes a Goff like leap in year 2 under the guidance of Mad Martz's protege, Angry Adam Gase. If Darnold does and Bell is the offensive catalyst, then we are in for a great show in 2019.

Thanks, buddy! Good post, I agree, I'm looking forward to next season also. Although I will be keeping an eye on Eric Dungey over on the G-Men, LOL.

GO ORANGE!!!!

[HelenOfTroy]

Saquon Barkley is a super star, no doubt, not debatable.  My God, he’s something, and he also appears to be a first class kid.  

The Giants got it right.

Only time I saw him live, was in the Rose Bowl, but in the end, he wasn’t enough.  The young QB went off to lead the comeback - he was enough, and a linebacker who knew he would go undrafted and never play in the NFL, tackled him (Saquon) for a loss to stop his team from Scoring and winning the game.  

Hope his career doesn’t end up like Calvin Johnson. Megaton wasn’t enough for the Lions either.

[nyjunc]

4 hours ago, HelenOfTroy said:

Saquon Barkley is a super star, no doubt, not debatable.  My God, he’s something, and he also appears to be a first class kid.  

The Giants got it right.

Only time I saw him live, was in the Rose Bowl, but in the end, he wasn’t enough.  The young QB went off to lead the comeback - he was enough, and a linebacker who knew he would go undrafted and never play in the NFL, tackled him (Saquon) for a loss to stop his team from Scoring and winning the game.  

Hope his career doesn’t end up like Calvin Johnson. Megaton wasn’t enough for the Lions either.

So was Barry Sanders, there's a reason RBs are less valuable than QBs.  NYG didn't win with tiki and the end of his career tiki was better than Barkley is.  We got a great RB in FA for a fair price, a great QB in his prime never gets to FA.

Barkley is great, the Giants still made a massive mistake unless Jones turns into a decent QB like Eli used to be and they surround the QB with immense talent like the Eli years.  I don't see it happening.

[Jetsfan80]

9 hours ago, CheezeMCRow said:

It's really going to come down to Daniel Jones, and what he becomes. If he's a dud, then gettleman looks like an ass clown. And if jones is indeed a franchise qb, then he's a hero for pairing him and saquon together for years, and no one will care less they passed over any qbs in 2018.

Although if darnold really is league average, as you say, then it looks like a no-brainer in history to take saquon.  

A league average QB for 15 years >>> transcendent RB for 4 years.

[Jetsfan80]

8 hours ago, 14 in Green said:

No, Jets management has nothing to do with this, so don't go there. According to most here Giant management is worse then ours, remember?

The "argument I took" was was in reference to you saying "as special as Barkley is, the Giants were still picking 6th..."  I replied, asking you "then how special was Darnold if the Jets picked 3rd?" I thought that was a reasonable, and still unanswered question.

As for the second part of your above quoted post, we KNOW Barkley is a special player already. We're HOPING Darnold becomes one, despite the fact some people here are already "convinced" he is. There are RBs who have nice careers, and believe it or not, some even get 2nd contracts. I'd love to see the ratio of 1st round RBs getting second contracts as opposed to the ratio of 1st round QBs who bust.

Finally, if Darnold becomes a "League average QB", he won't be here 15 years. At least lets hope he isn't. That's not what average QBs do, unless they spend most of their career as a backup. Not to mention watching 15 years of average QB play isn't how I want to spend what could be my last years on earth as a Jets fan. 

 

I never argued Sam Darnold is a "special talent" like you did with Saquon.  My point is a special talent at RB is still just a RB.  Even after an historic rookie RB season out of Saquon, the Giants were picking 6th.  Darnold only played well the final 4 games. 

But Darnold is 21 with a long future ahead of him.  Saquon's clock is already running out very quickly.  That's why he was a dumb pick. 

[nyjunc]

6 minutes ago, Jetsfan80 said:

A league average QB for 15 years >>> transcendent RB for 4 years.

The Giants won 2 SBs with a league average QB, they didn't win anything when tiki was an elite RB his final few years.  Unless Jones becomes an average QB the Giants really screwed this up because next year is a stronger QB draft and they reached for one this year again bowing down to fan pressure.

[Welp]

9 hours ago, 14 in Green said:

Or maybe it was that both teams were really bad. So bad in fact that one player wasn't going to change that fact in a single season. What we do know though is the Giants drafted a guy who became the Offensive ROY, and a All Pro. Its hard to do better then that, both with a pick, and as a player, isn't it?

There was nothing stupid about taking Barkley that high, unless you buy into the urban legend Jet fans promote. Here's a news flash. QBs enter the draft every single year. Just because the Giants didn't want to draft the one we took last year, it didn't mean they'd never get another chance to pick another one.

As for the Jets and Darnold? We shall wait and see how this all turns out. Most of us think we know, but no matter how convinced we say we are, we really don't yet know. Do we?

A bad team with a generational QB is going to do much better than an bad team with a generational RB. I mean how hard is it to understand? A QB has more effect on the game than a RB and that’s why it’s more important to find one. There is no argument there it’s you either get it or you don’t.

[CheezeMCRow]

Again, it's a moot point until we see what Jones eventually is, and IF darnold becomes anything more than a decent qb. No one knows what they'll be. Right now it's all based on espn talking heads who don't know anything. Darnold was wonderful in that rose bowl, but let's be honest, he took a big time step back in his second year at usc, so much so that the same pundits who declared him a lock as the #1 overall pick a year prior now thought he should've stayed in school another year.

For all we know Jones is going to be an even better pro than Darnold, or better than anyone coming out next year. Tua is wonderful, but he's also short and plays for an all-NFL caliber team at Bama. Projecting a year from now how the qbs wil be is crazy, especially when you look at last year going into this draft. Did anyone expect the first 3 qbs to be Murray, Jones,. And Haskins last May? Of course not.... Things change fast. 

[kelticwizard]

Please delete-was just testing

[Philc1]

23 hours ago, nyjunc said:

The Giants won 2 SBs with a league average QB, they didn't win anything when tiki was an elite RB his final few years.  Unless Jones becomes an average QB the Giants really screwed this up because next year is a stronger QB draft and they reached for one this year again bowing down to fan pressure.

Eli is league average?

 

 

It’s still early I guess

[Philc1]

23 hours ago, Jetsfan80 said:

A league average QB for 15 years >>> transcendent RB for 4 years.

All the giants did was draft a great fantasy player they didn’t actually help their team

 

 

They passed on Sam and then the next year could have drafted Ed Oliver or Josh Allen and then traded a 3rd for Rosen and Gettleman is like I’ll take a pass 

[nyjunc]

1 hour ago, Philc1 said:

Eli is league average?

 

 

It’s still early I guess

Most of his career he's been average, now he's below average

[CheezeMCRow]

12 minutes ago, nyjunc said:

Most of his career he's been average, now he's below average

Scary to think how many more Super Bowl MVP's he would've won had he been any better than average.

The easiest way to evaluate Eli is to think how he'd be viewed if he had the same exact career but as the Jets QB for the last 14 years - there'd already be a statue for him.

To put it in perspective, Darnold has ALREADY missed more games to injury in his very first year than Eli has missed in his entire career.

[nyjunc]

11 minutes ago, CheezeMCRow said:

Scary to think how many more Super Bowl MVP's he would've won had he been any better than average.

The easiest way to evaluate Eli is to think how he'd be viewed if he had the same exact career but as the Jets QB for the last 14 years - there'd already be a statue for him.

To put it in perspective, Darnold has ALREADY missed more games to injury in his very first year than Eli has missed in his entire career.

He won SB MVPs when he led his Os to 17 & 19 pts, throwing a total of 3 TDs in the 2 games while his D held NE to 14 & 17 pts when they averaged 38 & 32 in those years.

If Eli had the exact same career here he would have been run out of town a decade ago because the Jets D wasn't good enough to carry him to SBs.  We basically had Eli in Sanchez- a turnover prove QB who could elevate his game in big moments and could win if there was enough talent around him.  In 2 title games Sanchez led Os to 17 PPG and lost both, in 2 title games Eli led his Os to 18.5 PPG in regulation and won both then in SBs led his Os to 18 PPG and won both.

He's been very durable but durability alone does not equal greatness.  There's a reason he's only 2 games over .500 for his career, has never won a playoff game when his D allowed more than 20 points, has only been to the playoffs 6 times and has led his team to missing the playoffs 8 of the last 10 seasons.

[CheezeMCRow]

Eli's 2011 super bowl was also the worst ranked D to ever even get to a super bowl, let alone win one, and also had the worst ranked running game in a super bowl ..... but you're right, Eli did nothing that year, despite putting up MVP numbers all year.

[section314]

Well, you have to give Eli some credit here. It seems he has gotten over the unfortunate situation of a few years back, and actually consented to the Giants that they could, in fact draft a QB. As long as he was the guy who picked him.? But, hey, that's progress.

[nyjunc]

17 minutes ago, CheezeMCRow said:

Eli's 2011 super bowl was also the worst ranked D to ever even get to a super bowl, let alone win one, and also had the worst ranked running game in a super bowl ..... but you're right, Eli did nothing that year, despite putting up MVP numbers all year.

The Giants were 7-7 after a loss to last place Washington where Eli threw 3 ints and led his O to 10 points with 7 coming in the final minute trailing 23-3. From that point on the D absolutely dominated leading that team to the super bowl. In the 4 playoff games the D allowed 14 points per game against offenses led by Matt Ryan, Aaron Rodgers (with 7 points coming in garbage time), Alex Smith and Tom Brady.

In 12 career playoff games he's led his O to more than 24 points just one time, in 6 Sanchez also did it one time.

Eli had his best season in 2011 but the season was going down the toilet until the D stepped up late and if he was putting up MVP numbers why did he not receive a single league MVP vote?(he's never received even one in his entire career), why didn't he make any all pro teams? (Not even a second team whether on official or unofficial AP teams).  By the way, the league MVP that year threw 46 TDs and 6 ints, Eli threw 29 TDs and 16 INTs.  "MVP numbers" ??

[CheezeMCRow]

5 minutes ago, section314 said:

Well, you have to give Eli some credit here. It seems he has gotten over the unfortunate situation of a few years back, and actually consented to the Giants that they could, in fact draft a QB. As long as he was the guy who picked him.? But, hey, that's progress.

Agreed, you can already tell that Eli is going to be one of those players whose respect and legend will grow and grow the longer he's retired (ala, Phil simms who was pretty much public enemy #1 for a long time as Giants QB, even when winning, but was suddenly an all-time hero once he was gone). 

In 10 years, Giants fans and the NFL will remember Eli as an all-time great. It's just the way it works with time.

[CheezeMCRow]

3 minutes ago, nyjunc said:

The Giants were 7-7 after a loss to last place Washington where Eli threw 3 ints and led his O to 10 points with 7 coming in the final minute trailing 23-3. From that point on the D absolutely dominated leading that team to the super bowl. In the 4 playoff games the D allowed 14 points per game against offenses led by Matt Ryan, Aaron Rodgers (with 7 points coming in garbage time), Alex Smith and Tom Brady.

In 12 career playoff games he's led his O to more than 24 points just one time, in 6 Sanchez also did it one time.

Eli had his best season in 2011 but the season was going down the toilet until the D stepped up late and if he was putting up MVP numbers why did he not receive a single league MVP vote?(he's never received even one in his entire career), why didn't he make any all pro teams? (Not even a second team whether on official or unofficial AP teams).  By the way, the league MVP that year threw 46 TDs and 6 ints, Eli threw 29 TDs and 16 INTs.  "MVP numbers" ??

Lets' face it though, again, any team (not named the Pats) would've signed up for Eli's career for their team in a heartbeat at the 2004 draft ... championships, class, durability, and never ever made a peep of problems for the team in all those years. What more could you want? To put in further perspective, how many qb's have played for the Jets since 2004?

[nyjunc]

19 minutes ago, CheezeMCRow said:

Lets' face it though, again, any team (not named the Pats) would've signed up for Eli's career for their team in a heartbeat at the 2004 draft ... championships, class, durability, and never ever made a peep of problems for the team in all those years. What more could you want? To put in further perspective, how many qb's have played for the Jets since 2004?

Any team would take 2 SBs but they didn't win either because of him.  That doesn't mean he didn't help but he's been mostly mediocre his entire career.  Taking away the team success that was led by the D I will be disappointed if Darnold ends up with the same career as Eli.  If Sam wins one SB (regardless whether it was led by him or others) I'll gladly take Eli's mediocre career.

You don't remember the memorabilia scandal with Eli?  Ripping off fans with fake memorabilia.

They Jets have had a ton of QBs since 2004 and have mostly been bad.  Despite this the Jets have just 2 less playoff apps and just 3 less playoff wins playing in a division where every team not named NE is playing for a WC.

[nyjunc]

39 minutes ago, CheezeMCRow said:

Agreed, you can already tell that Eli is going to be one of those players whose respect and legend will grow and grow the longer he's retired (ala, Phil simms who was pretty much public enemy #1 for a long time as Giants QB, even when winning, but was suddenly an all-time hero once he was gone). 

In 10 years, Giants fans and the NFL will remember Eli as an all-time great. It's just the way it works with time.

Eli was never one of the best of his generation, he will never be remembered as an all time great in the NFL.  An all time great giant? Sure but he was a mostly mediocre QB putting up mostly meaningless numbers in an era where all the rules favored the passing game while being basically a .500 QB.  

Phil Simms was 31 games over .500 as a starting QB, in seasons he started at least 10 games he had one losing season.  Eli is just 2 games over .500(and likely to be under .500 by the end of this season) with 4 losing seasons in his last 5 years (the love non losing season he led his O with Beckham to 17 PPG).

[CheezeMCRow]

20 minutes ago, nyjunc said:

Any team would take 2 SBs but they didn't win either because of him.  That doesn't mean he didn't help but he's been mostly mediocre his entire career.  Taking away the team success that was led by the D I will be disappointed if Darnold ends up with the same career as Eli.  If Sam wins one SB (regardless whether it was led by him or others) I'll gladly take Eli's mediocre career.

You don't remember the memorabilia scandal with Eli?  Ripping off fans with fake memorabilia.

They Jets have had a ton of QBs since 2004 and have mostly been bad.  Despite this the Jets have just 2 less playoff apps and just 3 less playoff wins playing in a division where every team not named NE is playing for a WC.

Regardless of how anyone personally feels about Eli, he's going to the hall of fame--first ballot or not doesn't matter. When you draft a hall of famer who's won super bowls, then what more could a team ask for, like seriously now? 

Look at how the Jets have canonized Namath, who arguably had a much worse career than Eli. Point is, if Eli played for Jets and not Giants, he'd be viewed far, far differently. Giants fans and media are harder on their own qb's far more than the rest of the nation, always have been. That's why if you can play and flourish in New York, you're special breed of athlete.

Look at guys, even like Sanchez and Pennington, and how they had early success, but then flamed out either because of injuries or the pressure of playing in New York. Not just ANY qb can come here and perform well for any sustained period.... THAT'S what's going to be so fascinating to watch in the coming years with Darnold and Jones, especially if they have a rough start to their careers, ala Eli did, is seeing how they handle adversity and getting knocked on their asses repeatedly, and how they handle the intense pressure and critical onslaught goes with it. Jones is already getting a crash course in what to expect, and certainly hasn't been afforded the same red carpet, kid glove treatment from fans and media that Darnold was welcomed with his rookie year, but that all will change year two if Sam doesn't have a significant step up year (which i think he will). But if he doesn't, then the honeymoon phase will be over for him, and fans and media will start grumbling about the Jets possibly looking for another qb in the 2020 draft. It's just the way new york fans are. Patience is not their virtue.

[nyjunc]

Just now, CheezeMCRow said:

Regardless of how anyone personally feels about Eli, he's going to the hall of fame--first ballot or not doesn't matter. When you draft a hall of famer who's won super bowls, then what more could a team ask for, like seriously now?

He's not going to the hall of fame, he's a modern day Jim Plunkett who also has 2 SBs and is not in the hall.  Plunkett did more for his teams to win those SBs too.

There's not a single QB in the hall without any all pro selections (whether official or unofficial), he's never led a major category other interceptions three times.  He's only earned 2 pro bowls, he's never won a playoff game when his D allowed more than 20 points, he's led his team to missing the playoffs 8 of the last 10 seasons, he will be under .500 as a starting QB, he's only been named conference player of the week 4 times- for comparison sake Ryan Fitzpatrick has been named conference player of the week 7 times in 104 less starts and Chad Pennington has done it 6 times in 149 less starts AND Chad finished second in league MVP voting one time while Eli has never received a single vote for league MVP.

[CheezeMCRow]

11 minutes ago, nyjunc said:

He's not going to the hall of fame, he's a modern day Jim Plunkett who also has 2 SBs and is not in the hall.  Plunkett did more for his teams to win those SBs too.

There's not a single QB in the hall without any all pro selections (whether official or unofficial), he's never led a major category other interceptions three times.  He's only earned 2 pro bowls, he's never won a playoff game when his D allowed more than 20 points, he's led his team to missing the playoffs 8 of the last 10 seasons, he will be under .500 as a starting QB, he's only been named conference player of the week 4 times- for comparison sake Ryan Fitzpatrick has been named conference player of the week 7 times in 104 less starts and Chad Pennington has done it 6 times in 149 less starts AND Chad finished second in league MVP voting one time while Eli has never received a single vote for league MVP.

we can cry, scream, and whine about it all we want and throw any arbitrary stat out there.... but .... it ... doesn't .... matter ..... Eli is going to the hall of fame (regardless of whether you personally think he deserves it or not is irrelevant).

[Philc1]

1 hour ago, CheezeMCRow said:

Eli's 2011 super bowl was also the worst ranked D to ever even get to a super bowl, let alone win one, and also had the worst ranked running game in a super bowl ..... but you're right, Eli did nothing that year, despite putting up MVP numbers all year.

Not to mention their OL STUNK

[Philc1]

2 hours ago, nyjunc said:

Most of his career he's been average, now he's below average