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Gase did NOT want LeVeon Bell-Cimini

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I understand the point that you are making but who’s knows what was offered. Turn your scenario around.... we take a 2nd to move to #10.  Quinnen has a very good career, Oliver is Sheldon and the 2nd is a flop..... is that just as plausible? 

I feel your frustration with the redundancy of our #1 picks but it’s all a crapshoot so you try and get a stud. Not defending Mac but if I were in his shoes it would be a tough call.... especially if your DC has this kid as a “can’t miss” player

17 minutes ago, FidelioJet said:


This is the argument people continue to make but I simply don’t buy it.

These guys are wrong all the time.

Question. If QW turns out to be Leo/Sheldon/Mo and the tackle taken at 11 has a 10 career at LT - not a HOF career but a 10 year starter. What was the better pick?

What’s more likely here? I know my answer.

What about the TE at 8. Because scouts say QW is the best Value you have to take. Even though there’s a very good possibility the TE taken at 8 has a better career.

Lastly, he absolutely could have and should have traded down. Even if we only picked up a 2nd.



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24:25:31

 

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On 5/2/2019 at 3:43 AM, kelticwizard said:

While everyone debates the supposed importance of voluntary workouts, I'd just like to point out that in Bell's last year, 2017, he led the league both in rushing first downs and first downs overall.

 

Keeps the chains moving.  How's that for helping a young QB?

Some folks make up reasons to dislike people.  They can’t help it.  

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14 minutes ago, FidelioJet said:


This is the argument people continue to make but I simply don’t buy it.

These guys are wrong all the time.

Question. If QW turns out to be Leo/Sheldon/Mo and the tackle taken at 11 has a 10 career at LT - not a HOF career but a 10 year starter. What was the better pick?

What’s more likely here? I know my answer.

What about the TE at 8. Because scouts say QW is the best Value you have to take. Even though there’s a very good possibility the TE taken at 8 has a better career.

Lastly, he absolutely could have and should have traded down. Even if we only picked up a 2nd.



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24:25:31

Agree with everything you said till the part about trading back. I would personally have no issue if the Jets got 2 players worthy of a second contract meaning 2 players able too contribute for 8 years minimum. You and I both know though I believe Mac would be ripped even more by fans and media for such a move. Even if in the big picture it it possibly worked out.

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9 minutes ago, Bocajetfan said:

Agree with everything you said till the part about trading back. I would personally have no issue if the Jets got 2 players worthy of a second contract meaning 2 players able too contribute for 8 years minimum. You and I both know though I believe Mac would be ripped even more by fans and media for such a move. Even if in the big picture it it possibly worked out.

I agree Mac would have been killed, but you can't make choices based on how you're perceived by the media and fan base. 

Look at Gettleman - he's gotten killed two years in a row - but he did what he thought was best for the Giants - whether he made smart decisions or not isn't the point I'm making but rather he has the balls to do what he thinks is right.

If Mac's decision making is going to be based on media perception then we're a lot worse of than I even thought.

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17 minutes ago, FidelioJet said:

I agree Mac would have been killed, but you can't make choices based on how you're perceived by the media and fan base. 

Look at Gettleman - he's gotten killed two years in a row - but he did what he thought was best for the Giants - whether he made smart decisions or not isn't the point I'm making but rather he has the balls to do what he thinks is right.

If Mac's decision making is going to be based on media perception then we're a lot worse of than I even thought.

Absolutely correct thing is though how does ownership react to fans and media. Think we both know how the Johnsons react as well as at least 20 plus ownership groups. A move like that would make Mac a dead man walking he still may be one.

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On 4/30/2019 at 9:22 PM, Patriot Killa said:

I don’t care and I don’t think many of the guys here care either lol.

It is what it is. He’s a top 5 RB in the league and Maccagnan did what he was suppose to do. You Secure elite talent if it’s there..because it’d be near criminal not to considering the cap space. You suck. You have money. There’s good players to pay so you can get better. You do so. REAL simple stuff.

I do not shy away from grilling Maccagnan. I think he deserves every bit of skepticism that he gets..w/ that said..nothing to see here.

A lot of what you say is true talent wise, but Bell is NOT  a leader and is more of a "me" player than most. If you are newly signed to a new team you go to the workout just to introduce yourself and make yourself comfortable with the team. Bell did not show and I don't think he will last his contract before he wears out his welcome.

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1 hour ago, FidelioJet said:

I agree Mac would have been killed, but you can't make choices based on how you're perceived by the media and fan base. 

Look at Gettleman - he's gotten killed two years in a row - but he did what he thought was best for the Giants - whether he made smart decisions or not isn't the point I'm making but rather he has the balls to do what he thinks is right.

If Mac's decision making is going to be based on media perception then we're a lot worse of than I even thought.

There are 32 GMs in this league. There are certain picks where you can go against the pundits and take a risk! #1 pick is not one of them. These guys get paid $1 million plus.

You don’t want to blow that based on taking a risk by missing out on arguably the best player in the draft. Mac’s next job is Starbucks if he loses this gig. 

Would you take that risk at your job knowing your family is depending on you? I did that once and it set us back a couple of years. Mac is on precarious ground. He knows it & we know it. You try to pick studs and build the roster. He can’t afford Hackenturd, Smith and Shephard picks anymore. DAWGS, DAWGS AND MORE DAWGS!!!

This draft will determine if he sees another draft.

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14 minutes ago, 32EBoozer said:

There are 32 GMs in this league. There are certain picks where you can go against the pundits and take a risk! #1 pick is not one of them. These guys get paid $1 million plus.

You don’t want to blow that based on taking a risk by missing out on arguably the best player in the draft. Mac’s next job is Starbucks if he loses this gig. 

Would you take that risk at your job knowing your family is depending on you? I did that once and it set us back a couple of years. Mac is on precarious ground. He knows it & we know it. You try to pick studs and build the roster. He can’t afford Hackenturd, Smith and Shephard picks anymore. DAWGS, DAWGS AND MORE DAWGS!!!

This draft will determine if he sees another draft.

So your suggestion is someone that's making a $1mm+ a year - isn't supposed to do their job to the best of their ability so they can continuing making $1mm+ a year?

I would think their job is to build a winning team and that means doing what's necessary to build said team.

So he can't draft offense to support his new franchise QB - but he can draft another non-premium interior DT?

If he drafted the TE or even the T - no one would kill him - he's building around Sam and that would have been the better move.

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15 minutes ago, FidelioJet said:

If he drafted the TE or even the T - no one would kill him - he's building around Sam and that would have been the better move.

Has a TE ever been taken at #3 overall? You're complaining about the redundancy of the DT pick, then suggesting instead that they should overdraft a TE after taking what looks like quite the nice TE last year in the fourth round. And in the fourth this year it looks like they may've grabbed an over-sized Mark Bavaro. 

Jets entered the draft with pass rush arguably their biggest need, and they got themselves an effective inside rusher in QW. Oliver would've been my choice, but it's hard to fault them for taking Quinnen there. The idea of taking a TE over him is kinda absurd. 

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2 hours ago, FidelioJet said:


This is the argument people continue to make but I simply don’t buy it.

These guys are wrong all the time.

Question. If QW turns out to be Leo/Sheldon/Mo and the tackle taken at 11 has a 10 career at LT - not a HOF career but a 10 year starter. What was the better pick?

What’s more likely here? I know my answer.

What about the TE at 8. Because scouts say QW is the best Value you have to take. Even though there’s a very good possibility the TE taken at 8 has a better career.

Lastly, he absolutely could have and should have traded down. Even if we only picked up a 2nd.



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24:25:31

This wasnt a strong draft offensively its a fact. Im not saying there wasnt any good offensive players but defense clearly had the bigger impact players

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40 minutes ago, slats said:

Has a TE ever been taken at #3 overall? You're complaining about the redundancy of the DT pick, then suggesting instead that they should overdraft a TE after taking what looks like quite the nice TE last year in the fourth round. And in the fourth this year it looks like they may've grabbed an over-sized Mark Bavaro. 

Jets entered the draft with pass rush arguably their biggest need, and they got themselves an effective inside rusher in QW. Oliver would've been my choice, but it's hard to fault them for taking Quinnen there. The idea of taking a TE over him is kinda absurd. 

Yes, Im suggesting we overdraft offense.  This team has consistently treated offense as an afterthought.  

I had hoped with the addition of Sam - a true potential FQB - the Jets might have finally understood what it takes to consistently make the playoffs in the NFL - scoring a lot of points.

Instead we'll keep up with 20-17 football and get a WC twice a decade.  That seems to be the way most Jet fans want to continue to build this team.  I don't.

The defense we had last year, while not great, was competitive enough to win.  The offense was a disgrace - yet we draft defense again with our first two picks and make a MLB our top priced FA..  

.

 

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5 minutes ago, T0mShane said:

So how are we tying all these things together:

1. This was a weak draft with three good players at the top, BUT

2. Quinnen Williams is an all-world, franchise-changing defensive tackle not seen since Aaron Donald, BUT

3. Absolutely nobody wanted to trade anything of significant value for the third pick, even a bunch of picks in this very weak draft where the talent level fell off a table after pick #3?

No QBs worth trading up for. 

And we didn’t want a bunch of worthless pics in a weak draft. 

Keep up. 

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1 minute ago, FidelioJet said:

Yes, Im suggesting we overdraft offense.  This team has consistently treated offense as an afterthought.  

I had hoped with the addition of Sam - a true potential FQB - the Jets might have finally understood what it takes to consistently make the playoffs in the NFL - scoring a lot of points.

Instead we'll keep up with 20-17 football and get a WC twice a decade.  That seems to be the way most Jet fans want to continue to build this team.  I don't.

The defense we had last year, while not great, was competitive enough to win.  The offense was a disgrace - yet we draft defense again with our first two picks and make a MLB our top priced FA..  

.

 

To be fair we brought in some offensive talent in FA and trades to support Sam. 

Top RB, top slot receiver, top available RG, ok WR/KR. 

And we had a deal for the top C and he pussied out on us. 

Had we signed Paradis this offseason period would have been a home run. Barr would have made it a grand slam. 

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3 minutes ago, FidelioJet said:

The defense we had last year, while not great, was competitive enough to win.  The offense was a disgrace - yet we draft defense again with our first two picks and make a MLB our top priced FA..  

They added a premier RB who doubles as a WR, and a backup RB/WR, and a slot receiver in free agency, and traded for a guard. I’d’ve preferred to spend on Paradis at center instead of Mosely at ILB, so I’m with you to an extent, but there were no offensive players worthy of the #3 pick, and I would’ve been pissed if they took a crap trade to trade down for the sake of trading down. Added an OT and a TE in the third. 

Too much whining about the first round pick without taking the whole offseason into account. They addressed the offense -a little less than I would’ve liked- but I fully support taking the BAP at a team need (read: pass rush) at #3. That’s not a pick for reaching. 

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6 minutes ago, T0mShane said:

So how are we tying all these things together:

1. This was a weak draft with three good players at the top, BUT

2. Quinnen Williams is an all-world, franchise-changing defensive tackle not seen since Aaron Donald, BUT

3. Absolutely nobody wanted to trade anything of significant value for the third pick, even a bunch of picks in this very weak draft where the talent level fell off a table after pick #3?

You're right. This doesn't make any sense at all, and it almost insults our intelligence. As usual in Jet land, 2+2 never equals 4.

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4 hours ago, Philc1 said:

His {Leveon's] replacement Conner was injured and missed a couple games at the end of the season.  Stop.

So Conner was replaced for a couple of games-the fact is that when Leveon Bell left the Steelers lost the guy who got the most first downs rushing and the most first downs total, and Pittsburgh's whole run game declined over 15%.  Pittsburgh's ball control as measured by Time of Possession per game went down by a minute, which is important for a team which traditionally relies on ball control.  And Pittsburgh won four games less the year after Leveon left.

Conner did well, but he's not the playmaker that Leveon is, and right now Darnold needs a proven playmaker coming out of the backfield to keep the chains moving.  Last year just about every pass Sam made had to be perfect or the Jets ended up punting.

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6 minutes ago, slats said:

They added a premier RB who doubles as a WR, and a backup RB/WR, and a slot receiver in free agency, and traded for a guard. I’d’ve preferred to spend on Paradis at center instead of Mosely at ILB, so I’m with you to an extent, but there were no offensive players worthy of the #3 pick, and I would’ve been pissed if they took a crap trade to trade down for the sake of trading down. Added an OT and a TE in the third. 

Too much whining about the first round pick without taking the whole offseason into account. They addressed the offense -a little less than I would’ve liked- but I fully support taking the BAP at a team need (read: pass rush) at #3. That’s not a pick for reaching. 

We offered Paradis the most money but he simply did not want to come to the NYC Metro area. 

He took less money for lifestyle. 

As much as I wanted Bradbury or Jonah or one of the other tackles you can’t take them at 3 and taking less than fair value to fill holes and passing up on a much better player is not smart. 

 

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2 hours ago, Ex-Rex said:

A lot of what you say is true talent wise, but Bell is NOT  a leader and is more of a "me" player than most. If you are newly signed to a new team you go to the workout just to introduce yourself and make yourself comfortable with the team. Bell did not show and I don't think he will last his contract before he wears out his welcome.

He’s here to contribute elite production to our team. I agree that it’s a better look to show up and meet the new players but if he didn’t, I don’t see how that’s not okay. Let him work out on his own. It’s voluntary, man. It doesn’t have to be that deep for us fans. 

I do agree that it’s a better look and it’s better to make yourself comfortable ASAP. 

 

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5 minutes ago, slats said:

They added a premier RB who doubles as a WR, and a backup RB/WR, and a slot receiver in free agency, and traded for a guard. I’d’ve preferred to spend on Paradis at center instead of Mosely at ILB, so I’m with you to an extent, but there were no offensive players worthy of the #3 pick, and I would’ve been pissed if they took a crap trade to trade down for the sake of trading down. Added an OT and a TE in the third. 

Too much whining about the first round pick without taking the whole offseason into account. They addressed the offense -a little less than I would’ve liked- but I fully support taking the BAP at a team need (read: pass rush) at #3. That’s not a pick for reaching. 

Completely agree that the offense is head-and-shoulders better than it was last year - but too many resources still went to defense, again.

You say a little less - for you and me it's just variables on the same theme.  I think a lot more should have gone to offense.  

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1 hour ago, T0mShane said:

So how are we tying all these things together:

1. This was a weak draft with three good players at the top, BUT

2. Quinnen Williams is an all-world, franchise-changing defensive tackle not seen since Aaron Donald, BUT

3. Absolutely nobody wanted to trade anything of significant value for the third pick, even a bunch of picks in this very weak draft where the talent level fell off a table after pick #3?

Replace “But” with “And”

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1 hour ago, T0mShane said:

So how are we tying all these things together:

1. This was a weak draft with three good players at the top, BUT

2. Quinnen Williams is an all-world, franchise-changing defensive tackle not seen since Aaron Donald, BUT

3. Absolutely nobody wanted to trade anything of significant value for the third pick, even a bunch of picks in this very weak draft where the talent level fell off a table after pick #3?

Six of the top 13 picks in this year's draft were defensive linemen. It's where the value was in this draft. It's not surprising that teams were content to stay where they were to take another player at the same position rather than give up a bounty of picks for maybe the best of that bunch. If Quinnen was the only DL worthy of such a high pick, maybe then they would've gotten a little action. The big rumor was Washington trading up for Haskins, they got him staying at 15. The Raiders discussed very publicly their desire to trade down and took a player that probably would've been there four or five spots down, but apparently they got zero calls for their pick. I'm happy enough with QW, but I would've been bent if the Jets traded draft chart value to move up four or five spots to take him. Similarly, I would've been pissed if they took less than value to move down. It's just the way this draft fell, and sometimes you just have to take what's there. 

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So how are we tying all these things together:
1. This was a weak draft with three good players at the top, BUT
2. Quinnen Williams is an all-world, franchise-changing defensive tackle not seen since Aaron Donald, BUT
3. Absolutely nobody wanted to trade anything of significant value for the third pick, even a bunch of picks in this very weak draft where the talent level fell off a table after pick #3?
Just out of curiosity are you ever optimistic about anything?

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1 hour ago, Peace Frog said:

We offered Paradis the most money but he simply did not want to come to the NYC Metro area. 

He took less money for lifestyle. 

As much as I wanted Bradbury or Jonah or one of the other tackles you can’t take them at 3 and taking less than fair value to fill holes and passing up on a much better player is not smart. 

 

I thought we never offered him a deal.

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21 minutes ago, section314 said:

I thought we never offered him a deal.

I read differing reports and some that said we offered him more $$ than he took but whether we officially did or didn’t or whatever happened in the talks he didnt want to come to NYC metro. 

Kudos to him making a lifestyle choice but when you’re talking about $10 mill a year as opposed to $12 mill, it’s not that big of a sacrifice. 

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2 hours ago, section314 said:

I thought we never offered him a deal.

That is what I had thought I read. That the Jets were not comfortable with the type of fracture that he had in his leg, and that it was similar to the fracture Wilkerson had.

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5 hours ago, T0mShane said:

So how are we tying all these things together:

1. This was a weak draft with three good players at the top, BUT

2. Quinnen Williams is an all-world, franchise-changing defensive tackle not seen since Aaron Donald, BUT

3. Absolutely nobody wanted to trade anything of significant value for the third pick, even a bunch of picks in this very weak draft where the talent level fell off a table after pick #3?

More straw men. Point one: this wasn't a weak draft. It was quite strong on the defensive side. Point two: Quinnen Williams is an elite talent. But no one said he was "all-world, franchise-changing DT" except you. He has great potential, is a very safe pick and will provide a pass rush from the interior. Point: three: as has been said numerous times, in a strong defensive draft with no QB's worth trading up for, the #3 pick was not going to generate enormous interest. 

No one traded up for Bosa. No one traded up for Garrett previously. the differential between the top tier and the next level was not that great this year on defense.  It's not rocket science. 

Good try though. 

 

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6 hours ago, slats said:

Six of the top 13 picks in this year's draft were defensive linemen. It's where the value was in this draft. It's not surprising that teams were content to stay where they were to take another player at the same position rather than give up a bounty of picks for maybe the best of that bunch. If Quinnen was the only DL worthy of such a high pick, maybe then they would've gotten a little action. The big rumor was Washington trading up for Haskins, they got him staying at 15. The Raiders discussed very publicly their desire to trade down and took a player that probably would've been there four or five spots down, but apparently they got zero calls for their pick. I'm happy enough with QW, but I would've been bent if the Jets traded draft chart value to move up four or five spots to take him. Similarly, I would've been pissed if they took less than value to move down. It's just the way this draft fell, and sometimes you just have to take what's there. 

 

1 hour ago, Long Island Leprechaun said:

More straw men. Point one: this wasn't a weak draft. It was quite strong on the defensive side. Point two: Quinnen Williams is an elite talent. But no one said he was "all-world, franchise-changing DT" except you. He has great potential, is a very safe pick and will provide a pass rush from the interior. Point: three: as has been said numerous times, in a strong defensive draft with no QB's worth trading up for, the #3 pick was not going to generate enormous interest. 

No one traded up for Bosa. No one traded up for Garrett previously. the differential between the top tier and the next level was not that great this year on defense.  It's not rocket science. 

Good try though. 

 

I think both of these are interesting in that they’re both asking the question, “how much is a hearty, rugged defensive tackle really worth?” without actually saying it. Either Quinnen is an elite interior disruptor—which you’d imagine every team should want—or he’s a few clicks better than guys like Ferrell, Oliver, or Josh Allen, but not that much better that anyone would sacrifice a few extra picks for. If it’s true that Maccagnan never got any offers for the three, then that’s an interesting story, and if he did get offers and refused them, that’s also interesting in a different way. It could be that teams are more conservative with trades now, or they’re not valuing DT like you’d imagine they would. I’m not disparaging Quinnen or even Maccagnan so much. I just find it interesting how this played out. Weird first round overall, as I mentioned that day 

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