Q. Williams vs Allen: quote from SNY article

[HelenOfTroy]

 

[Beerfish]

5 hours ago, jack48 said:

Macc dies not dictate our plan. He does not formulate strategy,  He is not some Xs and Os genius

He's the friggin gm, he better be dictating the plan. That's his job

[Peace Frog]

Mac should have just taken the Raiders pick number 4, another 1st and maybe a 2nd this year and a 1 next year. 

Because that’s how trading works in the NFL. 

You just take what you want. 

While he was at it he should have forced the trade of Darron Lee to Washington for the 15 and taken Bradbury. 

 

[greenwave81]

8 hours ago, jetscrazey said:

He lost me at Nathan Shepard.

So...the least important part of his argument, the last ‘and’ in the thought ...a throw in so to speak...makes his premise wrong?

this draft should have been calculated as such by Macc:

if an edge I really like is at 3 is there, then take him. 

If not, then trade down (even if for less than previously traded value) and draft 2 OL between 15 and 50 say....and take Polite in the third (which he did). 

JMO

[RichardTodd27]

Listening to people compare Josh Allen to Von Miller really made this a no brainer pick for me. But Mac has a history of doing this.

I've defended Mac in the past (mainly for continuity reasons and not wanting to start all over again). But this pick put me over the edge.

 

[Ohio State NY Jets fan]

if Mac had a fire sale and traded #3 to Washington for #15 and #46 plus a 2nd next year = horrible value from a trade perspective - people might have killed him, bla, bla, bla... but he would have ended up with Garrett Bradbury and Greedy Williams who fill immediate needs and made the Jets a better team than it is today

 

 

[Villain The Foe]

11 hours ago, Warfish said:

I think we can all abandon the "shoulda traded down" criticism.  Great idea, but the way it played out it seems rather obvious no one wanted to trade up that badly.

Just look at the Redskins, bordeline desperate to get Haskins, and sat still, and got him.

It was just that kind of draft.

I have to disagree here brother. You know who wanted to trade up badly? The Steelers. The Steelers traded up 10 spots to get into the top 10 which means that they most definitely wanted one of the top LB's in the draft. It wasnt like they moved up 2 or 3 spots to jump ahead of a team based on how the board fell. They traded up from the 20th pick into the top 10 which means that their intention to move up was absolutely premeditated. They gave Denver the 20th pick, their 2nd rounder and 2020's 3rd rounder. 

We could have taken that same deal, and the Steelers would have had a choice at #3 between both Devin White (who was taken 5th) and Devin Bush. If we moved down to 20 we would have been in prime position to pick up the best pass protector in the draft in Andre Dillard who was taken 22nd by the Eagles. We would have then picked up our 2nd round pick, and had another extra 3rd rounder next year. 

The truth is this, many of the pre-draft trade scenarios spoken about by pundits didnt happen, and because folks constantly heard about those hypothetical trades so often, they just concluded that since those particular one's didnt happen that it was obvious that no one wanted to trade up that badly. The Steelers wanted to trade up that badly, which means that Macc had a potential trading partner given that the Jets position had both White and Bush available, and we can also add that Q was also there as a consideration. The Steelers would have had pickings at the top LB's in the draft as well as the best overall prospect. 

Now, some would immediately complain about the "value" in return, but let me show you how this would have worked out for Macc PERFECTLY. 

1st round, Jets get their OT of the future to grow with Darnold

2nd round, The Jets are in prime position again to get Mecole Hardman, a guy that Macc publicly stated he wanted to trade up to get. So instead of losing more draft capital and/or players by moving up, now Macc got his guy in Hardman and he ADDED to his draft position in future drafts. Hardman was taken four picks later by the Chiefs in the 2nd round.

3rd round, Macc gets his guy again in Polite, a talent that he believed was better than Josh Allen. 

And the cherry on top? He gets the Steelers 3rd round pick in 2020. 

So the trade value that Macc would have received in return was clearly there because he would have been in position to get all the guys that he wanted, as well as accumulate an extra premium pick within the top 100 in 2020, which provides value given that you can use that as a bargaining chip for a trade (up or down) next season or draft a player to add to the team. 

Im criticising Macc because it's clear that there were trading partners, and Macc was in prime position to make such a trade and get everyone he wanted and add to his stash of picks for next year. 

[Scoop24]

dudes swear this is madden just because you guys say trade back doesn’t mean there was good options to do it . There was no QB to drive up the price of pick . If Macc would of traded for hell of it and got fleeced you same Clowns would be complaining about that as well. 

[Villain The Foe]

Madden sucks. You can only trade back for QB's in that game. 

[Jetster]

13 hours ago, section314 said:

Forget Josh Allen vs Q. The Jets will rue the day they passed on Ed Oliver.

How is a guy that had 3 sacks last year in college vs Olineman that will be working at UPS after graduating rank so high in Jet fans minds? 

[Jetster]

3 hours ago, Villain The Foe said:

I have to disagree here brother. You know who wanted to trade up badly? The Steelers. The Steelers traded up 10 spots to get into the top 10 which means that they most definitely wanted one of the top LB's in the draft. It wasnt like they moved up 2 or 3 spots to jump ahead of a team based on how the board fell. They traded up from the 20th pick into the top 10 which means that their intention to move up was absolutely premeditated. They gave Denver the 20th pick, their 2nd rounder and 2020's 3rd rounder. 

We could have taken that same deal, and the Steelers would have had a choice at #3 between both Devin White (who was taken 5th) and Devin Bush. If we moved down to 20 we would have been in prime position to pick up the best pass protector in the draft in Andre Dillard who was taken 22nd by the Eagles. We would have then picked up our 2nd round pick, and had another extra 3rd rounder next year. 

The truth is this, many of the pre-draft trade scenarios spoken about by pundits didnt happen, and because folks constantly heard about those hypothetical trades so often, they just concluded that since those particular one's didnt happen that it was obvious that no one wanted to trade up that badly. The Steelers wanted to trade up that badly, which means that Macc had a potential trading partner given that the Jets position had both White and Bush available, and we can also add that Q was also there as a consideration. The Steelers would have had pickings at the top LB's in the draft as well as the best overall prospect. 

Now, some would immediately complain about the "value" in return, but let me show you how this would have worked out for Macc PERFECTLY. 

1st round, Jets get their OT of the future to grow with Darnold

2nd round, The Jets are in prime position again to get Mecole Hardman, a guy that Macc publicly stated he wanted to trade up to get. So instead of losing more draft capital and/or players by moving up, now Macc got his guy in Hardman and he ADDED to his draft position in future drafts. Hardman was taken four picks later by the Chiefs in the 2nd round.

3rd round, Macc gets his guy again in Polite, a talent that he believed was better than Josh Allen. 

And the cherry on top? He gets the Steelers 3rd round pick in 2020. 

So the trade value that Macc would have received in return was clearly there because he would have been in position to get all the guys that he wanted, as well as accumulate an extra premium pick within the top 100 in 2020, which provides value given that you can use that as a bargaining chip for a trade (up or down) next season or draft a player to add to the team. 

Im criticising Macc because it's clear that there were trading partners, and Macc was in prime position to make such a trade and get everyone he wanted and add to his stash of picks for next year. 

CONJECTURE!

[BCJet]

Q does not play the same position as Henry Anderson, that is ridiculous. 

While we do have a glut of interior defensive lineman, Q was clearly the best player in this draft and we got an edge rusher with the same upside as Allen, although obviously with more red flags, 2 rounds later.

What we need Greg Williams to do is find a way to use the 5 man rotation of Q, Anderson, McLendon, Leo and Shepphard to play "big" along the defensive line on early downs while also playing 5 DBs or have Lee out there.  

a "3-4" base of Q as NT, Leo and Anderson as the DEs, with Mosley, Williamson, Lee at LB and then either another OLB with Jenkins or a 5th DB allows to cover and also stop the run, and gives the opportunity to blitz off the edge.  That is what Q's versatility should also bring and if Polite can somehow be the player he was this past season at Florida, he can be the "rush OLB" in that group and then we really have an excellent front 7.

[Philc1]

Guy loses credibility when he says Nathan Shepherd is pretty good

[Philc1]

2 hours ago, Scoop24 said:

dudes swear this is madden just because you guys say trade back doesn’t mean there was good options to do it . There was no QB to drive up the price of pick . If Macc would of traded for hell of it and got fleeced you same Clowns would be complaining about that as well. 

Yes the jets should have traded down to take a Center 

[Augustiniak]

4 hours ago, Ohio State NY Jets fan said:

if Mac had a fire sale and traded #3 to Washington for #15 and #46 plus a 2nd next year = horrible value from a trade perspective - people might have killed him, bla, bla, bla... but he would have ended up with Garrett Bradbury and Greedy Williams who fill immediate needs and made the Jets a better team than it is today

 

 

If the team were a few players away I’d agree.  But when you’re consistently picking top 6 you have needs everywhere and an overall lack of impact players.  In the absence of good trade offers, i agree with what mccagnan did.  Because next draft will probably have much better offensive options, and then the jets will probably be more easily be able to get wr/OL positions in rounds 1-3, and likely, they won’t be reaching for defensive needs b/c they got two good prospects this year.  

I actually give mccagnan a lot of credit for not reaching this draft.  Since this could be his last draft, he could have compromised the overall talent he drafted and reduced the draft capital by trading out of 3 to fill needs.  But he didn’t - he didn’t hurt the team’s longer term competitiveness.  If you look at next year’s mocks already the offensive guys are projected early and often - qbs, wrs, so the jets could well find themselves getting a #1 wr while not reaching for one in the late 2nd this year. 

[Philc1]

4 hours ago, RichardTodd27 said:

Listening to people compare Josh Allen to Von Miller really made this a no brainer pick for me. But Mac has a history of doing this.

I've defended Mac in the past (mainly for continuity reasons and not wanting to start all over again). But this pick put me over the edge.

 

I like Allen and was lobbying him for months he will be good he won’t be Von Miller

 

I really like the Jachai Polite pick if he pans out it’s a really good draft

[jack48]

13 hours ago, Jetsfan80 said:

Of course not, because that's not what GM's do.  What exactly is your point here?

the point was to reply to the phrase "Macc has no viable plan here."

[jack48]

9 hours ago, Beerfish said:

He's the friggin gm, he better be dictating the plan. That's his job

The GM does not sit down at a meeting and announce he wants to play 3-4 or 4-3.  He just doesn't.  Do you want Macc matching brains with BB?  They get the players the coaches want--IF they can.  They are talent hunters.  Supposedly

[Villain The Foe]

1 hour ago, Jetster said:

CONJECTURE!

Watching the Steelers trade way up into the top 10 is certainly not conjecture. 

What's conjecture is saying that there is never any trade partners when it comes to Maccagnan failing to trade down.

[jamesr]

4 hours ago, Villain The Foe said:

I have to disagree here brother. You know who wanted to trade up badly? The Steelers. The Steelers traded up 10 spots to get into the top 10 which means that they most definitely wanted one of the top LB's in the draft. It wasnt like they moved up 2 or 3 spots to jump ahead of a team based on how the board fell. They traded up from the 20th pick into the top 10 which means that their intention to move up was absolutely premeditated. They gave Denver the 20th pick, their 2nd rounder and 2020's 3rd rounder. 

We could have taken that same deal, and the Steelers would have had a choice at #3 between both Devin White (who was taken 5th) and Devin Bush. If we moved down to 20 we would have been in prime position to pick up the best pass protector in the draft in Andre Dillard who was taken 22nd by the Eagles. We would have then picked up our 2nd round pick, and had another extra 3rd rounder next year. 

The truth is this, many of the pre-draft trade scenarios spoken about by pundits didnt happen, and because folks constantly heard about those hypothetical trades so often, they just concluded that since those particular one's didnt happen that it was obvious that no one wanted to trade up that badly. The Steelers wanted to trade up that badly, which means that Macc had a potential trading partner given that the Jets position had both White and Bush available, and we can also add that Q was also there as a consideration. The Steelers would have had pickings at the top LB's in the draft as well as the best overall prospect. 

Now, some would immediately complain about the "value" in return, but let me show you how this would have worked out for Macc PERFECTLY. 

1st round, Jets get their OT of the future to grow with Darnold

2nd round, The Jets are in prime position again to get Mecole Hardman, a guy that Macc publicly stated he wanted to trade up to get. So instead of losing more draft capital and/or players by moving up, now Macc got his guy in Hardman and he ADDED to his draft position in future drafts. Hardman was taken four picks later by the Chiefs in the 2nd round.

3rd round, Macc gets his guy again in Polite, a talent that he believed was better than Josh Allen. 

And the cherry on top? He gets the Steelers 3rd round pick in 2020. 

So the trade value that Macc would have received in return was clearly there because he would have been in position to get all the guys that he wanted, as well as accumulate an extra premium pick within the top 100 in 2020, which provides value given that you can use that as a bargaining chip for a trade (up or down) next season or draft a player to add to the team. 

Im criticising Macc because it's clear that there were trading partners, and Macc was in prime position to make such a trade and get everyone he wanted and add to his stash of picks for next year. 

And what's to say in the above scenario that someone else doesn't jump above us to snatch Dillard at 19? Then what?

[Ohio State NY Jets fan]

1 hour ago, Villain The Foe said:

Watching the Steelers trade way up into the top 10 is certainly not conjecture. 

What's conjecture is saying that there is never any trade partners when it comes to Maccagnan failing to trade down.

Exactly, I doubt the Jets intended to trade up for Sanchez but the Browns (via Mangini) made them a deal they could not refuse - I get the impression Mac sat back and waited and got what he got

[Ohio State NY Jets fan]

1 hour ago, Augustiniak said:

If the team were a few players away I’d agree.  But when you’re consistently picking top 6 you have needs everywhere and an overall lack of impact players.  In the absence of good trade offers, i agree with what mccagnan did.  Because next draft will probably have much better offensive options, and then the jets will probably be more easily be able to get wr/OL positions in rounds 1-3, and likely, they won’t be reaching for defensive needs b/c they got two good prospects this year.  

I actually give Mac a lot of credit for not reaching this draft.  Since this could be his last draft, he could have compromised the overall talent he drafted and reduced the draft capital by trading out of 3 to fill needs.  But he didn’t - he didn’t hurt the team’s longer term competitiveness.  If you look at next year’s mocks already the offensive guys are projected early and often - qbs, wrs, so the jets could well find themselves getting a #1 wr while not reaching for one in the late 2nd this year. 

A well reasoned and thought out response - Thank you

I don't agree with Mac's draft or strategy but will support the players drafted and post like yours do help... we all want the same thing after all - at least one Jets Super Bowl before we die LOL

I think QW will be a great player, just think it probably spells the end for Leo, felt like history repeating itself with Sheldon and Mo(not good history) - also glad the Jets will have all of their picks next year, let hope offense is a focus in the draft next year. IMHO helping Sam take the next step is paramount if we do not want to  face another decade of rebuilds

 

[section314]

The thing that boggles the mind about Macc is his fascination to trade at will on day 3 of the draft, yet look like a deer in headlights the first two days. I guess he honestly feels that adding more picks in rds4-7 allows you the ability to get better players than you can in rds1-3. Strange way to build a good roster.

[thebuzzardman]

14 hours ago, T0mShane said:

It’s very simple FREINDS WHAT you do is you play Quinnen at the five and then you put Leonard at the same spot and you Put Anderson at the three and you put Nathan Shepherd on hold and bam—-here’s the trick—-you let Leonard Williams walk as a free agent and that’s how you make all these players fit. It’s genious when u think about it keep them #fresh

I'm surprised you passed on quoting the pundit as saying Nathan Shepherd is > Jamal Adams

[T0mShane]

2 minutes ago, thebuzzardman said:

I'm surprised you passed on quoting the pundit as saying Nathan Shepherd is > Jamal Adams

I don’t use hyperbole in my analysis. That would damage my credibility.

[Augustiniak]

11 minutes ago, section314 said:

The thing that boggles the mind about Macc is his fascination to trade at will on day 3 of the draft, yet look like a deer in headlights the first two days. I guess he honestly feels that adding more picks in rds4-7 allows you the ability to get better players than you can in rds1-3. Strange way to build a good roster.

He’s had premium prospects fall to him in most of the drafts in round 1 so i get this.  He’s also not confident enough to trade back and not take someone who becomes a stud, he’s not successful enough to withstand that criticism.  

[GREENBEAN]

18 hours ago, #27TheDominator said:

It is poorly worded, but I thought he was counting Quinnen Williams in the 3 of our best players conversation, and that Shepherd was just a throw in as a guy that isn't a complete zero.  I thought he was saying Williams, Williams, Anderson Adams.  I am probably giving the writer too much credit. 

Maybe, but I think it was more about the use of a 3rd rd pick on Shepherd that brought him to the conversation. He's certainly not one of our better players at the moment, but I can see why the writer added him into the mix for this particular point. That's how I was reading it anyway. 

As an aside, I am in the minority where Shepherd is concerned as I watched him specifically a few games last season. I think he is going to be much more of a contributor in year two based on what I was watching last year. He has to do a better job of shedding the blocks, but as a space eater he did quite well in the joke of a defense we played last year. 

[Villain The Foe]

1 hour ago, jamesr said:

And what's to say in the above scenario that someone else doesn't jump above us to snatch Dillard at 19? Then what?

Say if the Eagles jumped in front of us and moved up to 19 to draft Andre Dillard, Macc's response could be to draft 

Jawann Taylor, Tytus Howard, Greg Little or Kaleb McGrey...4 OT's taken after Dillard in a span of 14 picks. 

If Macc didnt believe that any of the OT's were as good as DIllard (That can happen of course) Then the Jets will have the first pick of the WR class at 20 as well, as no WR was taken by the 20th pick. Marquise Brown was sitting right there for the taking. Or how about TE/WR Noah Fant? 

There were tons of options at the 20th pick that would have satisfied a direct need, an upgrade and a help to Darnold and the offense, instead of sitting there and taking another Defensive Tackle.

There are solutions to even the most pessimistic of scenarios.  

[section314]

14 minutes ago, GREENBEAN said:

Maybe, but I think it was more about the use of a 3rd rd pick on Shepherd that brought him to the conversation. He's certainly not one of our better players at the moment, but I can see why the writer added him into the mix for this particular point. That's how I was reading it anyway. 

As an aside, I am in the minority where Shepherd is concerned as I watched him specifically a few games last season. I think he is going to be much more of a contributor in year two based on what I was watching last year. He has to do a better job of shedding the blocks, but as a space eater he did quite well in the joke of a defense we played last year. 

I agree. Also, it's an old excuse , if you will, but I think is very true that a guy like Shepard takes longer to adjust to the talent level in the NFL coming from the small school he did than the guys who come from major programs.

[GREENBEAN]

2 hours ago, Philc1 said:

I like Allen and was lobbying him for months he will be good he won’t be Von Miller

 

I really like the Jachai Polite pick if he pans out it’s a really good draft

We ended up with something very similar to what you have been talking about the whole time. eh?  

I actually thought about you when we made the pick .lol 

[Apache 51]

19 hours ago, jetstream23 said:

 

The real work left to do on D is at CB.  That's the only concern at this point, and given the top heaviness of this Draft on Defense we couldn't go Offense.  The Jets wanted to trade down but they weren't discounting the #3 pick.  So I'm fine with QW pick.  And, if I'm being honest with myself about my desire for Josh Allen then there's a reason he slid to #7.  The Raiders wanted an Edge rusher and passed on him.  The Buccs went Defense and passed on him.  The Giants passed on him.  Only time will tell but we probably got one of the 2 best players in the Draft at #3.

Yes.

[MichaelScott]

Compounded by all the other draft capital used/wasted on the Wilks and Sheldons, while EDGE OLB has been completely neglected for the entire decade and a half we have been a 3-4 D, outside of Gholston. I don't care how bad Ghost was, that is a position that is too important to neglect. That's like saying if Sanchez was a Ghost level bust and we dont draft another top QB for 15 years. 

Edit: Wait... That's kind of exactly what we did? fml

[MichaelScott]

Also, for those people sticking to the "we'll have inside pass rush with Q, he's our Donald", etc... Q will never have the kind of rush presence that Donald has because Donald does not play in a 3-4. He plays in a 4-3, along side another good-very good DT and competent DE's. If you put Aaron Donald on a 3-4 with no standout rush LBers to account for, he is likely NOT going to be Aaron Donald anymore. In the best case scenario that Q is anything close to the talent of Donald, he STILL wont produce the type of game impacting/dominating play that some people on this board are claiming to expect. 

In conclusion, while I'm sure opposing olineman will be in compete fear of the guy with braces lined up across from them, he was the wrong pick. Mac still sucks and he f'ed us again. 

[Ghost]

15 hours ago, CTJetsFan said:

Will be 26 in October

http://www.espn.com/nfl/player/_/id/4076951/nathan-shepherd

I was being sarcastic. 

[CTJetsFan]

12 hours ago, Peace Frog said:

Mac should have just taken the Raiders pick number 4, another 1st and maybe a 2nd this year and a 1 next year. 

Because that’s how trading works in the NFL. 

You just take what you want. 

While he was at it he should have forced the trade of Darron Lee to Washington for the 15 and taken Bradbury. 

 

Check out my post on Mayock's comments on NFL Radio yesterday. They were never trading up