Christopher Johnson vs Woody Johnson

[Jetsfan80]

Just now, Peace Frog said:

Pretty sure he knew that when he made the trade. 

Which makes him extremely lucky, not a guy who is good at his job. 

[Mogglez]

13 hours ago, Jet Nut said:

Even more importantly after initially saying the reporting to the owner would stay under his lead he has lulled back and said they would go to the traditional system that for some reason people here think is a huge deal. 

Yeah the system has been changed for a while now, but that doesn't get headlines or allow people to be selectively outraged.

[Peace Frog]

1 minute ago, Jetsfan80 said:

Which makes him extremely lucky, not a guy who is good at his job. 

He was going to get his choice of the 2 QBs he liked. 

Luck is the residue of design. 

[Jetsfan80]

2 minutes ago, Peace Frog said:

He was going to get his choice of the 2 QBs he liked. 

Luck is the residue of design. 

He liked Baker and Darnold.  We were picking 3rd.  That logic makes zero sense.  There was no guarantee whatsoever he'd get one of the two QB's.  He said after the draft he was surprised the Browns took Baker, and figured the Giants would then take Darnold (since he never expected Darnold to make it to us).  OR that someone would move up to 2 to take him. 

You want to talk about "hindsight being 20-20", that's exactly what you're trying to do here.

[Peace Frog]

1 minute ago, Jetsfan80 said:

He liked Baker and Darnold.  We were picking 3rd.  That logic makes zero sense.  There was no guarantee whatsoever he'd get one of the two QB's.  He said after the draft he was surprised the Browns took Baker, and figured the Giants would then take Darnold (since he never expected Darnold to make it to us). 

You want to talk about "hindsight being 20-20", that's exactly what you're trying to do here.

I’ve heard reports that he knew the Giants were taking Barkley no if’s ands or buts and would not entertain phone calls. 

We’re all guessing but since you hate Mac you’re going to look at everything through that prism, which is fine. 

This was a discussion about owners. 

[Jetsfan80]

Just now, Peace Frog said:

I’ve heard reports that he knew the Giants were taking Barkley no if’s ands or buts and would not entertain phone calls. 

We’re all guessing but since you hate Mac you’re going to look at everything through that prism, which is fine. 

This was a discussion about owners.  

Link?

Owners, with few exceptions, hire GM's to run football teams, so its very relevant to evaluate the most important hire the owner makes, no?

[section314]

56 minutes ago, Peace Frog said:

You understand we were never in a position to draft a QB like Sam in ages, right?

We finally sucked enough in the right year and made a ballsy move to get the right QB. 

They aren’t football people. They rarely if ever stick their noses into football matters that they don’t understand. Kudos for that. And they SPEND MONEY. Maybe not always wisely but who they are told to spend money on.  

If your qualm is they are incompetent because they have t hired the right football people, lump them in with about 3/4 of the owners in the NFL. How often do GMs and FOs turn over? It’s pretty common.

You know who’s a BAD owner?

The Wilpons.  Incompetent, stick their noses in where they shouldn’t AND don’t spend money.

Let’s see how good of and owner Woody/Chris become with Sam. If we’re still floundering in 2-3 years then I may agree with you.

 

Woody has owned the Jets for 19 years....how much longer until he becomes a "football person?" And if you are incapable of learning on the job, go hire a proven commodity to run the organization like the way it should be, a $3 billion company. Since the Wilpons have owned the Mets, they've won one World Series, and have been to three in total. Woody isn't even in the same sentence as the Wilpons.

[Peace Frog]

2 minutes ago, Jetsfan80 said:

Link?

Owners, with few exceptions, hire GM's to run football teams, so its very relevant to evaluate the most important hire the owner makes, no?

Let's see what kind of owners they are now that they have a franchise QB.

 

[Peace Frog]

2 minutes ago, section314 said:

Woody has owned the Jets for 19 years....how much longer until he becomes a "football person?" And if you are incapable of learning on the job, go hire a proven commodity to run the organization like the way it should be, a $3 billion company. Since the Wilpons have owned the Mets, they've won one World Series, and have been to three in total. Woody isn't even in the same sentence as the Wilpons.

I've been a fan of both since 1969 so you don't need to tell me the history.

The Wilpons have sucked since Madoff in a league where there was no cap for a while and virtually no cap now.  They treat the Mets like the Milwaukee Brewers.  What they are doing now is grossly negligent for the largest sports entertainment market in the country. 

Woody has spent all the money asked of him but he never was going to become a football guy.  Blame him for his hires but he's not making the hires because he doesn't want to win. 

[Jetsfan80]

3 minutes ago, Peace Frog said:

Let's see what kind of owners they are now that they have a franchise QB.

They're already objectively terrible for bringing back Mike Maccagnan as the guy to build around said QB. 

[WayneChrebet80]

4 minutes ago, section314 said:

Woody has owned the Jets for 19 years....how much longer until he becomes a "football person?" And if you are incapable of learning on the job, go hire a proven commodity to run the organization like the way it should be, a $3 billion company. Since the Wilpons have owned the Mets, they've won one World Series, and have been to three in total. Woody isn't even in the same sentence as the Wilpons.

One World Series since 1986 is nothing to write home about

Woody has until 2031 to be included in the same sentence as Fred Wilpon by your logic. 

[Jetsfan80]

1 minute ago, WayneChrebet80 said:

One World Series since 1986 is nothing to write home about

Woody has until 2031 to be included in the same sentence as Fred Wilpon by your logic.  

Not to mention 2 additional WS appearances in that span. 

[Peace Frog]

6 minutes ago, section314 said:

Woody has owned the Jets for 19 years....how much longer until he becomes a "football person?" And if you are incapable of learning on the job, go hire a proven commodity to run the organization like the way it should be, a $3 billion company. Since the Wilpons have owned the Mets, they've won one World Series, and have been to three in total. Woody isn't even in the same sentence as the Wilpons.

You know who's a "football person"?

Jerry Jones.  He hasn't won a SB since 1996 and has won 3 playoff games in 21 years.

The Irsay's on the other hand are not football people and they drafted back to back Manning and Luck and well, that front office is great.

 Because they've been winning.  

[Peace Frog]

4 minutes ago, Jetsfan80 said:

They're already objectively terrible for bringing back Mike Maccagnan as the guy to build around said QB. 

Ok, got it.  

[Peace Frog]

3 minutes ago, WayneChrebet80 said:

One World Series since 1986 is nothing to write home about

Woody has until 2031 to be included in the same sentence as Fred Wilpon by your logic. 

And I'm talking about TODAY.

Post-Madoff when they are treating the Mets like the Kansas City Royals or the Tampa Bay Rays.  Look at that payroll, it's embarrassing.  

Fred cares more about the Dodgers of lore.

[Peace Frog]

6 minutes ago, Jetsfan80 said:

They're already objectively terrible for bringing back Mike Maccagnan as the guy to build around said QB. 

So I'm guessing you're rooting for them to lose so Mac gets fired and we can hire a "real" GM?

I'm hoping we go 10-6, make the playoffs.

That's just me.  

[WayneChrebet80]

2 minutes ago, Jetsfan80 said:

Not to mention 2 additional WS appearances in that span. 

Who cares? They lost, and in one was embarrassed by their cross town rival. 

The Wilpons run the Mets like a mid market team. They are by far the worst owners in town without a doubt. 

[Jetsfan80]

Just now, Peace Frog said:

So I'm guessing you're rooting for them to lose so Mac gets fired and we can hire a "real" GM?

I'm hoping we go 10-6, make the playoffs.

That's just me.  

Ah yes, the old "You want him to fail!" argument. 

No.  I want Macc to draft great players and for this team to be a perennial contender.  But he doesn't, so we aren't. 

[Jetsfan80]

1 minute ago, WayneChrebet80 said:

Who cares? They lost, and in one was embarrassed by their cross town rival. 

The Wilpons run the Mets like a mid market team. They are by far the worst owners in town without a doubt. 

Who cares about Pennants?  A lot of people. 

Much like we'd like for the Jets to get to a Super Bowl, even if we lost to the Giants in it. 

[Jet Nut]

3 hours ago, Jetsfan80 said:

He liked Baker and Darnold.  We were picking 3rd.  That logic makes zero sense.  There was no guarantee whatsoever he'd get one of the two QB's.  He said after the draft he was surprised the Browns took Baker, and figured the Giants would then take Darnold (since he never expected Darnold to make it to us).  OR that someone would move up to 2 to take him. 

You want to talk about "hindsight being 20-20", that's exactly what you're trying to do here.

 

You have no idea who he liked, let's start by getting that off the table.  No one does for sure.  He traded up thinking he had a great shot at one of the top 2 QBs given the Giants infatuating with gold jackets but definitely had one of the top 3 in his pocket. 

Funny, you've convinced yourself for the sake of the argument that you know who Macc wanted when no one else did.  First it was we wanted Allen.  Then it was Rosen.  Now it's Baker.  While the only one everyone got right was pretty much every expert, anyone with an opinion believing what was coming out of the Giants who pointed at Barkley being their top choice all during the process.  But the most agreed upon pick, after it went as predicted by all was the one we weren't supposed to believe and shouldn't have?  We get it, those who hate Macc just refuse to give Macc credit for treating up. 

He could have followed your logic, sat at six and missed out on every QB.  Would have come out that Macc turned down the trade, you know this place would blow up and scream for his head like after the Wentz pick was traded.  Then we would bitch that he couldn't pull the trigger and missed out on Darnold. 

All I know is that we got Darnold BECAUSE he traded up and was sitting waiting to draft him when our spot came up.  What I also know is this, 1000%, if we stay at 6 we're still crying that we don't have a Darnold as our FQB. 

[jgb]

1 hour ago, Jetsfan80 said:

Complete falsehood.

In 2016, Macc himself stated we were interested in trading up to # 1 for either Goff or Wentz, but didn't make the move:  https://www.nj.com/jets/2016/04/jets_inquired_about_trading_up_to_no_1_pick_says_m.html

In 2017, we could have taken Watson or Mahomes instead of Jamal Adams.  We passed because Macc still thought Hackenberg was "the guy". 

Macc missed the boat on them—granted many did—but to say never in the position to get an elite QB is absurd. Also Darnold not proven elite, yet, FYI.

[14 in Green]

It gets incredibly frustrating to have to see every thread taken over by the same group of Macc haters. It brings to mind the fable about The Boy Who Cried Wolf. After awhile, people stopped listening.

Yet here we are. No matter what we're posting or reading about, we can't escape them. Ever present, always saying the same thing over and over. Its to the point that even I, as someone who thinks Macc hasn't been a good GM is sick of hearing it.

Maybe someone else will see how annoying this is becoming, and start a thread where those people could go and complain to each other about Macc every day, and not drive the rest of us crazy. They could call it "THE FIRE MACC THREAD."

[nyjunc]

4 hours ago, section314 said:

Possibly the GOAT, BB. When it became obvious that either Dolan or Woody was going to be the new owner, he didn't walk, he ran to get the hell out of here. Al Groh, a respected NFL veteran, took the bullet the first year out of loyalty to Parcells. After that, it was a collection of guys that wouldn't be anyone's first call......Herm, Mangini, Rex, Bowles and now Gase. Look at the GM's.....any of those guys in demand?  Connect the dots here, Woody and his management style are kryptonite to good people in NFL circles.

Woody wasn't even our owner when BB skipped town. BB left because he didn't want BP hovering over him.

Al Groh??? Seriously? ?? No other team would have hired him as a HC.  The job was too big for him and he fled for more security.

Herm, mangini and Rex were all hired as HCs after leaving the Jets, a team even gave us a draft pick for Herm.

The answer is not one single established coach turned us down in the Woody era.

[nyjunc]

3 hours ago, MDL_JET said:

lol man you guys really don't wanna give Mac an ounce of credit for that trade huh?? 

It's comical, whenever he does something well it's always because of luck or someone else.  

[Matt39]

2 minutes ago, nyjunc said:

Woody wasn't even our owner when BB skipped town. BB left because he didn't want BP hovering over him.

Al Groh??? Seriously? ?? No other team would have hired him as a HC.  The job was too big for him and he fled for more security.

Herm, mangini and Rex were all hired as HCs after leaving the Jets, a team even gave us a draft pick for Herm.

The answer is not one single established coach turned us down in the Woody era.

The Jets have also never hired an established coach since Woody bought the team. Gase would be the closest, and that's still a reach. The Johnson's have been cheap with front office and coaching hires and have balked at the idea of hiring a President of Football Operations. Every single decision has run through them and they are the single points of fault for why the franchise has struggled. They have been poor owners in relation to the 31 others in the NFL. The results speak for themselves. 

[NoBowles]

11 minutes ago, Matt39 said:

The Jets have also never hired an established coach since Woody bought the team. Gase would be the closest, and that's still a reach. The Johnson's have been cheap with front office and coaching hires and have balked at the idea of hiring a President of Football Operations. Every single decision has run through them and they are the single points of fault for why the franchise has struggled. They have been poor owners in relation to the 31 others in the NFL. The results speak for themselves. 

Im not sure if its cheapness, or the desire to meddle that has caused them to not hire the established coach. A young inexperienced coach, happy to have a job, is less likely to tell the idiot owner to go Fk themselves when they chime in stupidly, than an experienced vet coach with lots of options

[TheSage]

Chris is a fan-he once told me I would be sorry for giving up my Jets season tickets because Parcells was coming in to coach. Leon-I never really knew although I represented the family although I got the impression ( and may be incorrect about it) that it was more of an investment with some necessary entertainment interest.

 

[nyjunc]

19 minutes ago, Matt39 said:

The Jets have also never hired an established coach since Woody bought the team. Gase would be the closest, and that's still a reach. The Johnson's have been cheap with front office and coaching hires and have balked at the idea of hiring a President of Football Operations. Every single decision has run through them and they are the single points of fault for why the franchise has struggled. They have been poor owners in relation to the 31 others in the NFL. The results speak for themselves. 

Who are the established coaches we should have hired? Basically the only big name guy was cowher and he had no interest in returning to coaching.  Who were the other big name, established coaches we should have pursued?  Most teams hire coordinators in hopes they become the next big coach.

 

 

[Jetsfan80]

31 minutes ago, 14 in Green said:

It gets incredibly frustrating to have to see every thread taken over by the same group of Macc haters. It brings to mind the fable about The Boy Who Cried Wolf. After awhile, people stopped listening.

Yet here we are. No matter what we're posting or reading about, we can't escape them. Ever present, always saying the same thing over and over. Its to the point that even I, as someone who thinks Macc hasn't been a good GM is sick of hearing it.

Maybe someone else will see how annoying this is becoming, and start a thread where those people could go and complain to each other about Macc every day, and not drive the rest of us crazy. They could call it "THE FIRE MACC THREAD." 

As long as there are Macc supporters saying the same silly things over and over, there will be people like me to counter those silly arguments. 

You can't separate the owners from who they hire to run the team.  The ownership hasn't "figured it out" from their past failures with the likes of Terry Bradway, Mike Tannenbaum, and John Idzik.  Its "Meet the new boss, same as the old boss".  Unfortunately, we can't fire the owners.

[Matt39]

2 minutes ago, nyjunc said:

Who are the established coaches we should have hired?

Every big name is available at the right price.

[Jetsfan80]

39 minutes ago, nyjunc said:

The answer is not one single established coach turned us down in the Woody era. 

Possibly.  But over the years, we also weren't in the running for several established coaches, who quickly took other jobs without interviewing with us. 

Examples?  Dick Vermeil in 2001, John Fox in 2015, and Bruce Arians in 2019. 

The pickings were slim in 2009, sadly.  In 2006 Sean Payton and Mike McCarthy were hired in NO and GB, but neither were "established" names yet.

[nyjunc]

15 minutes ago, NoBowles said:

Im not sure if its cheapness, or the desire to meddle that has caused them to not hire the established coach. A young inexperienced coach, happy to have a job, is less likely to tell the idiot owner to go Fk themselves when they chime in stupidly, than an experienced vet coach with lots of options

Would Jet fans like an established coach like rich kotite?  He made the playoffs in Philly and led them to their first playoff win in 12 years.

I ask again, who were the established coaches we wanted?

SB winners since 2000:

Billick: 1st time HC

Belichick was an established failure until Brady turned his career around.

Gruden: 1st time HC

Cowher: 1st time HC

Dungy: 2nd job after being fired in TB after turning that franchise around.

Coughlin: 2nd job after leading jax to early success.

Tomlin: 1st time HC (by the way, Pitt has been the most consistent franchise in the SB era and they never hired an established coach)

Payton: 1st time HC

McCarthy: 1st time HC

Harbaugh: 1st time HC

Carroll: a rare 3rd chance but had to go win national Championships in college to get another chance.

 

Kubiak: 2nd job but had ties to elway and Denver

Pederson: 1st time HC

 

8 1st time HCs won, 5 retreads and none of those 5 had ever win a championship or even been to a super bowl.

[nyjunc]

3 minutes ago, Jetsfan80 said:

Possibly.  But over the years, we also weren't in the running for several established coaches, who quickly took other jobs without interviewing with us. 

Examples?  Dick Vermeil in 2001, John Fox in 2015, and Bruce Arians in 2019. 

The pickings were slim in 2009, sadly. 

Vermeil and fox failed in KC and Chicago, we'll see what Arians can do and we know he never would have come here after we fired his buddy.

[nyjunc]

7 minutes ago, Matt39 said:

Every big name is available at the right price.

Sure and we could have traded for Tom Brady too.

[Peace Frog]

1 hour ago, Jetsfan80 said:

Ah yes, the old "You want him to fail!" argument. 

No.  I want Macc to draft great players and for this team to be a perennial contender.  But he doesn't, so we aren't. 

I know your kind. That’s ok, I’ve been there.

I wanted the Jets to lose so Idzik would get dumped. 

It’s a whole new world now with Sam.  

Finally an offensive minded coach.

And a dynamic offensive weapon.

We’ll get there.