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Beerfish

First round picks spent on defense in the last 20 years....

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59 minutes ago, JoJoTownsell1 said:

The pathetic Jets took too many players on defense. The pathetic Lions took too many players on Offense, The pathetic Redskins were too balanced. 

The lesson learned: Nothing. 

Nonsense.  If over a 10 year period you have drafted an over abundance on one side of the ball means you have utterly failed with  many of those picks.  There is no metric in which 10 out of 11 1st rounders on one side of the ball is a good thing.

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6 minutes ago, greenwave81 said:

Wish I shared your optimism....I mean, who's going to replace Leo when he walks lol?

Nathan Shephard or Foley Fat? haha

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3 minutes ago, Beerfish said:

The fact that you have to be so unbalanced in drafting means you have failed badly on picks on that side of the ball.

Deeper issue for me is that they've missed on so many 2-4 rounders. 5-7 is a crapshoot and also a place for ST depth... but you build the team in 2-4 and it's been a black hole for 3 successive GMs.

Herndon (crosses fingers), Maye (please just stay healthy),  Demario Davis, and Jordan Jenkins are the only outliers here over the past 7 years! Macc has 3 of them so good on him I guess.

You have to go back to 2011 for a draft where they hit on two players in rounds 2-4 (Kerley and Powell) and while solid pros were only average players.  

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4 hours ago, JiF said:

Moss was a great player in this league for a long time

He was great?  I recall him being a quality/productive WR but not "great".  He wasn't even good enough to be a #1 WR (save for 1 year in Washington).  

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4 hours ago, Beerfish said:

10 years:

image.thumb.png.b0db9c9a903d3ad5da7aab9abc81b7f0.png

It's excessive. Anyone can see that.  And it has to stop. Mac is a big contributor to that trend.  The Fire Mac thread wiil be alive and well for a long time.

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4 hours ago, JoJoTownsell1 said:

The pathetic Jets took too many players on defense. The pathetic Lions took too many players on Offense, The pathetic Redskins were too balanced. 

The lesson learned: Nothing. 

There is never a lesson learned when you respond with a straw man argument.  Success and failure at any point in that list is not the issue.  The issue is that for the Jets, you know... it's spelled J-E-T-S....   it was gross negligence not addressing the offense in the last 10 years.  Our draft history in the last 10 years is ridiculous and inexcusable. 

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7 hours ago, Beerfish said:

We do come second to the Packers in % of 1st round picks spent on defense so I guess there is that to hang our hats on.

 

image.thumb.png.0d5e2bbeb5ba7a2a78ba8b75af5fa8de.png

Brett Favre//Aaron Rodgers

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5 hours ago, rex-n-effect said:

OTOH with the Lions and Bengals at the bottom of both of those lists you can't say drafting 1st round offense is a path to success either. 

Yup

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I get the whining about the defense drafting but this year the offensive talent just was not there at the top of the draft and you can’t trade down at will

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3 hours ago, Beerfish said:

Nonsense.  If over a 10 year period you have drafted an over abundance on one side of the ball means you have utterly failed with  many of those picks.  There is no metric in which 10 out of 11 1st rounders on one side of the ball is a good thing.

So?  That doesn’t mean drafting defense this year was a mistake

 

Just like Matt Mullen using a 5th first round pick in a row on wrs to get a guy named Calvin Johnson

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2 minutes ago, FidelioJet said:

It's sad -

Yet almost all of you are defending the pick this year.

 

Because it was the right move

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6 hours ago, Dcat said:

You want more revealing numbers? Do the same study, but for the last 10 years instead of 20. The Jets % of defensive 1st rd picks should be the most in the NFL by leaps and bounds. 

Easy....In the last ten years we have had 11 first round picks: they were all used on defense, except Sam Darnold.

AND>..the trend was almost reversed in the second round.  9 picks, 6 offense.

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55 minutes ago, FidelioJet said:

It's sad -

Yet almost all of you are defending the pick this year.

but the Lions ended up with Megatron after drafting 5 first round WR's - oh and they still sucked and never won a thing even with the "generational" WR 

We must be silly for wanting to fill needs - they tell us BAP is how you get Megatron on a team full of former and future shelf stockers - we must be crazy for wanting a balanced team of talent who can win games

:)

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11 hours ago, FidelioJet said:

It's sad -

Yet almost all of you are defending the pick this year.

 

 

11 hours ago, Philc1 said:

Because it was the right move

 

11 hours ago, FidelioJet said:

It wasn't.

Try to expand the discussion beyond the 2019 selection of Williams. That's not really the issue here.  It's the horrible pattern of drafting in round 1 over an entire generation including 3 different GMs in 10 years and more in 20.

Forget the Williams debate.  That's a single season.  Instead, look at the 10 and 20 year 1st round trends.   They speak for themselves.  Res ipsa loquitor.   Just look at the overall team drafting philosophy and it sucks to high holy heaven.

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16 hours ago, slats said:

The same or more number of offensive players taken as ten other teams over that same period of time. 

I have nothing to back this up but it seems like there are a lot more defensive players that get first round grades. Teams have stopped drafting running backs early, and the amount of Oline coming out with first round grades seems to get less and less every year. All the athletes are playing defense.

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4 minutes ago, Dcat said:

 

 

Try to expand the discussion beyond the 2019 selection of Williams. That's not really the issue here.  It's the horrible pattern of drafting in round 1 over an entire generation including 3 different GMs in 10 years and more in 20.

Forget the Williams debate.  That's a single season.  Instead, look at the 10 and 20 year 1st round trends.   They speak for themselves.  Res ipsa loquitor.   Just look at the overall team drafting philosophy and it sucks to high holy heaven.

The Williams pick and the people lauding it are the same people complaining in this thread.  You can't simply look beyond that pick.  I imagine these same people made the same argument with MoSheLeo...They were all said to be BPA and we had no choice but to take him - It's nonsense. 

It's clear to me, the team and many of its fans, lack a fundamental understanding of what's important in building an NFL franchise.  They're blinded by catch phrases like Best Available Player.......

 

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12 hours ago, FidelioJet said:

It wasn't.

Drafting D this year absolutely was the right move.  You can make an argument that they should have taken Allen instead of a DT, but look at how RD 1 went.  The only offensive players who went top 10 were QBs and Hockenson.  You wanted a TE at 3?

Next non-QBs were Jonah Williams (low ceiling, high floor), Lindstrom (G, 14), Bradbury (C, 18) and Fant (TE, 20).  Other than Williams, who some fans liked but the league apparently didn't consider a true franchise LT (those guys don't slide out of the top 10), which offensive player do you think the Jets should have taken at 3?

Sucks that they had such a high pick in such a D heavy draft, but you can only pick from the available players and no offensive player was good enough to justify taking at 3.

It is what it is.

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Drafting defense so heavily isn't the crime, it's the fact that so many of those guys are either "role players" now or are totally out of the league a few years after being picked.

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54 minutes ago, Doggin94it said:

Drafting D this year absolutely was the right move.  You can make an argument that they should have taken Allen instead of a DT, but look at how RD 1 went.  The only offensive players who went top 10 were QBs and Hockenson.  You wanted a TE at 3?

Next non-QBs were Jonah Williams (low ceiling, high floor), Lindstrom (G, 14), Bradbury (C, 18) and Fant (TE, 20).  Other than Williams, who some fans liked but the league apparently didn't consider a true franchise LT (those guys don't slide out of the top 10), which offensive player do you think the Jets should have taken at 3?

Sucks that they had such a high pick in such a D heavy draft, but you can only pick from the available players and no offensive player was good enough to justify taking at 3.

It is what it is.

That's about it. 

Most people here, I think, were hoping for a trade down into that OL territory and it didn't materialize. I can't fault Mac for refusing to accept a low-ball offer for the third pick in the draft. The Raiders had a for sale sign on the #4 pick, too, and couldn't get a bite, either. The QB people were hoping Washington would trade for went #15 overall. 

I also think people get hung up on the draft as if it's the only way to improve a team. Jets spent heavily in free agency this year signing a premier RB, a quality slot receiver, another RB/WR and WR, as well as trading for an all pro guard. The thing I'm far more unhappy about is signing Mosley to huge money. I'd've preferred making Paradis the highest paid center in the league, all things considered. But when they were on the clock at pick #3, with no fair offers to move, defense was the only play there. I just hope QW winds up being better then Oliver. 

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19 hours ago, Dcat said:

Of the current NFL GMs, Mac has the highest percentage of draft picks already out of the league within 4 years of being drafted, IIRC. 

Yet people here think he's just fine. 

I don't know who thinks he's just fine. I think his record speaks for itself and he seems in over his head. Unfortunately we are stuck with him, for now. At the same time, I'm not going to whine about it every 5 minutes on here either.

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3 minutes ago, Ken Shroy said:

I don't know who thinks he's just fine. I think his record speaks for itself and he seems in over his head. Unfortunately we are stuck with him, for now. At the same time, I'm not going to whine about it every 5 minutes on here either.

I agree.....set Alexa for 30 minutes.😁

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16 hours ago, Beerfish said:

Nonsense.  If over a 10 year period you have drafted an over abundance on one side of the ball means you have utterly failed with  many of those picks.  There is no metric in which 10 out of 11 1st rounders on one side of the ball is a good thing.

While I think that is largely true, you also can't ignore two important points.

1) we switch coaches a lot, which means each coach has their own systems and types of guys they want. The only two that were remotely close were Mangini and Rex, and Rex wanted his own guys.

2) When you keep hiring DC's, particularly unproven ones, their instinct is to look great at their side of the ball first and foremost. It ensures when they inevitably get fired, they can get a job as a DC again. 

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Not sure I would look at %. We’ve drafted the same number of offensive players as the patriots.

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35 minutes ago, Ken Shroy said:

I don't know who thinks he's just fine. I think his record speaks for itself and he seems in over his head. Unfortunately we are stuck with him, for now. At the same time, I'm not going to whine about it every 5 minutes on here either.

Good for you.  I get that.  But I'll complain about it whenever I feel bothered by it.  For all the time and money I've spent on the Jets in the last 35 years, it's high time we get a GM that is competent.  Fans, Season ticket holders and PSL owners deserve better.

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1 hour ago, FidelioJet said:

The Williams pick and the people lauding it are the same people complaining in this thread.  You can't simply look beyond that pick.  I imagine these same people made the same argument with MoSheLeo...They were all said to be BPA and we had no choice but to take him - It's nonsense. 

It's clear to me, the team and many of its fans, lack a fundamental understanding of what's important in building an NFL franchise.  They're blinded by catch phrases like Best Available Player.......

 

And just to be clear; you could actually be wrong, and not all the people who somehow lack the fundamental understanding of what is important in building an NFL franchise.

If you can't move down and collect draft picks, you can't do it.  Taking offense for the sake of offense is actually not how it should be done. 

But then again, I could very well be one of those people lacking in that fundamentalism not so readily knowable to the common folk.

Crazy idea: How about we let Williams and Polite play one or two games before deeming this entire draft a complete failure?

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22 hours ago, Beerfish said:

We do come second to the Packers in % of 1st round picks spent on defense so I guess there is that to hang our hats on.

 

image.thumb.png.0d5e2bbeb5ba7a2a78ba8b75af5fa8de.png

The irony of the Ravens only using 7 picks, and having a great D.

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1 hour ago, CanadaSteve said:

And just to be clear; you could actually be wrong, and not all the people who somehow lack the fundamental understanding of what is important in building an NFL franchise.

If you can't move down and collect draft picks, you can't do it.  Taking offense for the sake of offense is actually not how it should be done. 

But then again, I could very well be one of those people lacking in that fundamentalism not so readily knowable to the common folk.

Crazy idea: How about we let Williams and Polite play one or two games before deeming this entire draft a complete failure?

It's fine that you feel that way - but then I would suggest not to come into a thread like this and complain about the Jets taking a 4 DT's and spending the most 1st round picks in the NFL on defense.

I'm just pointing out the hypocrisy.

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18 hours ago, Beerfish said:

The fact that you have to be so unbalanced in drafting means you have failed badly on picks on that side of the ball.

They've failed PERIOD, Beerfish. They've failed on offense, defense, special teams, HC, GM, etc. So on and so forth. The most glaring indictments of all those stiffs the Jets have hired through the years..... Tanny, Idzik, Mac, Mangini, Rex, Toilet, etc. is their DRAFTING. All of them have sucked at drafting. The player selection has just been so poor that you cannot possibly stay competitive. Even when you have a supposed "war chest" on your hands like Mac has had a few times, it doesn't make any difference if your existing has no talent. It's putting a silk hat on a pig. After you get past the silk hat it's still just a pig. In the Jets case, once you get past some decent starters the entire roster is not garbage.

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6 hours ago, FidelioJet said:

It's fine that you feel that way - but then I would suggest not to come into a thread like this and complain about the Jets taking a 4 DT's and spending the most 1st round picks in the NFL on defense.

I'm just pointing out the hypocrisy.

I actually DIDN'T complain about it.

And I think this was pointed out that the problem isn't picking that many on defense:  the problem is, missing on the picks.  If you were a Detroit fans, would you be happy with Megatron, or would you complain about the Lions picking so many WR with 1st round picks?  In actuality, the issue is picking said so many WR's because you failed with so many picks at the position.

I have NO issue with spending draft capital on Defense; I think we have been a little top-heavy on defense continually, but the complaint I have is missing too many picks, meaning you have to constantly be drafting the same position because you miss on the picks. 

We could have more versatility in drafting a wide swath of positions if we would actually draft solid players at a position.  But, when you don't, it leads to 5 D-lineman and 5 safeties in 5 consecutive years.

 

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