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mrcoops

Wisniewski signs...with the Eagles

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At this point I would have to believe that Gase and the OL coach have watch tape on Harris and like what they see in him (and Toth.) 

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17 minutes ago, mrcoops said:

Can't see this being popular:

https://profootballtalk.nbcsports.com/2019/05/13/eagles-bring-back-guard-stefen-wisniewski/

Clearly, the Jets have more confidence in Harrison and/or Toth than many people on the board.

certainly sounds like it.  harris started out as a center and is probably more comfortable in that role than as a guard or any other oline position.  i remember when the center position was kind of an afterthought when talking about olines.  the tackles were always the main guys followed by the guards.

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4 minutes ago, Barry McCockinner said:

Yea the hysteria over the center position is largely overblown here. Harrison was fine (OK) when he replaced Long at the end of the season. Darnold played his best ball after Harrison replaced Long.

This could also easily be a Wayne Hunter situation.  Hunter played very well for us for 4 games in 2010, then played lousy for the entire 2011 season before finding himself out of the league entirely after 2012.

Though in this case at least we have a Plan B in Toth. 

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3 minutes ago, Jetsfan80 said:

This could also easily be a Wayne Hunter situation.  Hunter played very well for us for 4 games in 2010, then played lousy for the entire 2011 season before finding himself out of the league entirely after 2012.

Though in this case at least we have a Plan B in Toth. 

Could be any number of situations. I would have liked a center in the draft but it's not like we're going to start the season with a road cone at the center position.

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10 minutes ago, Jetsfan80 said:

Though in this case at least we have a "Plan B" in Toth. 

Fixed

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I get that they are fine with Harrison. I am surprised though they are not signing veteran depth at Center.

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13 minutes ago, Adoni Beast said:

I get that they are fine with Harrison. I am surprised though they are not signing veteran depth at Center.

The season starts in 4 months.  Teams will be cutting/looking to trade high priced vets over the course of the next few months.  I assume the Jets are hoping a better option becomes available in the weeks leading up to the season. 

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1 hour ago, mrcoops said:

True....though I'll always love Wayne Hunter for being the guy who went nuts at Santonio Holmes for quitting on the team during a vital late-season game.

I get why people are concerned about Center, given how poorly Long played last year, but Harrison is a decent player. Not the type of top-flight guy we are used to after years of Mangolds and Mawaes and Sweeneys and Fields, but an experienced NFL Center with a decent number of starts under his belt. He definitely improved the position when he was called upon later in the year in 2018.

people were just pissed at long because his snaps were bad, im not sure anyone really took the time to look at his blocking... Longs snaps were terrible because he legitimately could not hold the ball with his snapping hand because of his finger... The fact that bowles let him continue to play there was an absolutely moronic coaching decision.  Thats why we saw his play improve when he moved to guard.  Long actually isnt a terrible center, he's average to above average at his best.  

That being said the drop off between long and harrison is very small, and with harrison still having room to progress maybe this season there wont be any drop off at all. we'll see at the end of the day. I still think we'll see a veteran center brought into camp to compete for the job. 

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3 minutes ago, Chrebetfan80 said:

people were just pissed at long because his snaps were bad, im not sure anyone really took the time to look at his blocking... Longs snaps were terrible because he legitimately could not hold the ball with his snapping hand because of his finger... The fact that bowles let him continue to play there was an absolutely moronic coaching decision.  Thats why we saw his play improve when he moved to guard.  Long actually isnt a terrible center, he's average to above average at his best.  

That being said the drop off between long and harrison is very small, and with harrison still having room to progress maybe this season there wont be any drop off at all. we'll see at the end of the day. I still think we'll see a veteran center brought into camp to compete for the job. 

This is a popular myth, but it is way overstated.  For how many games?  Is there a C in the NFL without a ****ed up finger?  Tape it to the next one and move on.  The ******* guy admitted it was mental and because he lost his "comfort."  I give him credit for being a stand-up guy, but there was a bunch more to it than just an injured finger.  

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This is a popular myth, but it is way overstated.  For how many games?  Is there a C in the NFL without a ****ed up finger?  Tape it to the next one and move on.  The ******* guy admitted it was mental and because he lost his "comfort."  I give him credit for being a stand-up guy, but there was a bunch more to it than just an injured finger.  

Either way he needed to be benched after two games of that crap. Take A min and settle down on the sideline. Bowles is a spineless moron and bates was living in the woods when Bowles hired him.


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10 minutes ago, #27TheDominator said:

This is a popular myth, but it is way overstated.  For how many games?  Is there a C in the NFL without a ****ed up finger?  Tape it to the next one and move on.  The ******* guy admitted it was mental and because he lost his "comfort."  I give him credit for being a stand-up guy, but there was a bunch more to it than just an injured finger.  

You have information on the extent of his finger injury? Calling it a myth seems a bit out there without some information to back it up. Other centers being injured doesn't speak to the extent of Long's injury.

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4 minutes ago, Barry McCockinner said:

You have information on the extent of his finger injury? Calling it a myth seems a bit out there without some information to back it up. Other centers being injured doesn't speak to the extent of Long's injury.

The finger injury was real.  The idea that his finger was so bad that he couldn't snap is overstated.  You can give him the game that he injured it, and maybe the Dolphins game because he dinged it again.  

Quote
 

“They brought me here for a reason and I’m just trying to do the best I can to help the team,’’ Long said after the game. “Bottom line is I don’t want to let my team down and I felt like I did today.”

Asked if it’s more a mental or physical issue, Long said, “It’s definitely both.”

“When you have an injury where you lose all your comfort, it gets into your head and you can’t snap the ball and it can snowball sometimes,’’ he said. “Unfortunately that happened today.”

https://nypost.com/2018/11/04/centers-spiraling-problem-just-blew-up-in-jets-face/

 

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You can NEVER have enough depth on the OL. Tough position and guys get hurt all the time. The Jets as currently constructed at the position have no margin for error.  I guess that's what all the guys spouting off about how the Center position is fine don't understand.

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9 minutes ago, JetFaninMI said:

You can NEVER have enough depth on the OL. Tough position and guys get hurt all the time. The Jets as currently constructed at the position have no margin for error.  I guess that's what all the guys spouting off about how the Center position is fine don't understand.

I agree with you here. I think it's one reason they have kept Ben Braden around....played all three OL spots at Michigan. Would not be surprised if Edoga gets a fair amount of time at G during camp and the pre season.

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1 minute ago, section314 said:

I agree with you here. I think it's one reason they have kept Ben Braden around....played all three OL spots at Michigan. Would not be surprised if Edoga gets a fair amount of time at G during camp and the pre season.

Isn't Edoga expected to start/compete at RT with Shell coming back from the injury? 

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1 minute ago, #27TheDominator said:

Isn't Edoga expected to start/compete at RT with Shell coming back from the injury? 

Yes, but I believe some teams also like him as a guard. Just a hunch.

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I'm more comfortable starting Harrison than most on this board seem to be, but the fact the Jets didn't even like Wisniewski to be able to offer than a back up plan in case of injury is strange. Still have plenty of cap space and are pretty thin at C, maybe Toth will surprise.

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1 hour ago, JoJoTownsell1 said:

The season starts in 4 months.  Teams will be cutting/looking to trade high priced vets over the course of the next few months.  I assume the Jets are hoping a better option becomes available in the weeks leading up to the season. 

Yes this is a very good point. It just seems like they’re almost completely against looking at upgrading center. 

But i suspect cb2 and possibly c will be addressed after cuts or potential trades.

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Seems clear Macc and Gase are fine with Harrison.

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I have no problem giving Harrison a shot at the starting job, and I don't think most do, but it's the lack of a reasonable alternative / backup plan that is the red flag in this all.  When the resume features questionable play up until half a season in a player's 5th year, completely banking on the assumption of progress or even just consistency is far from guaranteed to work out.

Bottom line, it's a continuation of Maccagnan's tendency to invest minimal resources into the OL, with the only defense in this case being undeserved benefit-of-the-doubt that he'll eventually do something different later.

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Screen_Shot_2016-08-03_at_11.08.01_AM.0.

Wesley Johnson is serviceable, this is fine.

Spencer Long is serviceable, this is fine.

Jonotthan Harrison is serviceable....

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Eagles' investments in the O-Line since 2016:

  • OT Andre Dillard:  2019 1st round pick
  • Starting LG Isaac Seumalo:  3rd round pick in 2016
  • Starting RG Brandon Brooks:  Signed to a 5-year deal in 2016 (previously a Texan)
  • G/C Stefen Wisneiwski:  Signed to 3-year deal in 2016 (previously a Jaguar), benched in 2018, then brought back in 2019 (presumably on a cheap deal)
  • OT Matt Pryor:  2018 6th rounder
  • OT Jordan Mailata:  2018 7th rounder
  • OT Helapoulivaati Vaitai:  2016 5th rounder
  • G Iosua Opeta:  2019 UDFA acquisition --> was projected 6th/7th rounder and compared to Kelvin Beachum

 

They did all this despite having LT Jason Peters, C Jason Kelce, and RT Lane Johnson all entrenched as starters since 2013. 

THIS is how you build an O-Line pipeline:  Draft O-Linemen every season, even if you already have plenty of depth there, and supplement with free agent pickups. 

It's also a great way to win a Super Bowl. 

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2 hours ago, #27TheDominator said:

This is a popular myth, but it is way overstated.  For how many games?  Is there a C in the NFL without a ****ed up finger?  Tape it to the next one and move on.  The ******* guy admitted it was mental and because he lost his "comfort."  I give him credit for being a stand-up guy, but there was a bunch more to it than just an injured finger.  

I don't know, why don't you tell us all those CD who has the same finger injury he had and it wasn't an issue, how many games he was hurt and how many other centers had similar injuries and had no problems snapping in the shotgun. 

He was playing well, was injured to the point he had to play a different position.  But we should call bs because we know better without anything to back it up. 

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4 hours ago, Barry McCockinner said:

Yea the hysteria over the center position is largely overblown here. Harrison was fine (OK) when he replaced Long at the end of the season. Darnold played his best ball after Harrison replaced Long.

 

Yes, but the critical positions of C, LT, on Oline warrant having backup depth with exp. You go into a season with Toth as the backup never have taken an NFL snap and Harrison gets hurt that is playing with fire. Even last year in a clear rebuilding season we had Harrison (who has a fairly good amount of exp. at C) backing up Long, and as we saw Long really should have been replaced well earlier than he was. Hopefully they sign a backup C with exp. in the next 1-2 months before training camp opens.

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27 minutes ago, Jetsfan80 said:

Eagles' investments in the O-Line since 2016:

  • OT Andre Dillard:  2019 1st round pick
  • Starting LG Isaac Seumalo:  3rd round pick in 2016
  • Starting RG Brandon Brooks:  Signed to a 5-year deal in 2016 (previously a Texan)
  • G/C Stefen Wisneiwski:  Signed to 3-year deal in 2016 (previously a Jaguar), benched in 2018, then brought back in 2019 (presumably on a cheap deal)
  • OT Matt Pryor:  2018 6th rounder
  • OT Jordan Mailata:  2018 7th rounder
  • OT Helapoulivaati Vaitai:  2016 5th rounder
  • G Iosua Opeta:  2019 UDFA acquisition --> was projected 6th/7th rounder and compared to Kelvin Beachum

 

They did all this despite having LT Jason Peters, C Jason Kelce, and RT Lane Johnson all entrenched as starters since 2013. 

THIS is how you build an O-Line pipeline:  Draft O-Linemen every season, even if you already have plenty of depth there, and supplement with free agent pickups. 

It's also a great way to win a Super Bowl. 

Good points.  IMO the bigger need than center is who are the back up tackles on this team?   Edoga is clearly in the mix, but if Beachum or Shell go down it’s not going to be pretty.   There is depth in the interior, but tackle is scary thin.  

 

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28 minutes ago, Peace Frog said:

Fire Mac. 

Immediately. 

 

1 hour ago, Jetsfan80 said:

Eagles' investments in the O-Line since 2016:

  • OT Andre Dillard:  2019 1st round pick
  • Starting LG Isaac Seumalo:  3rd round pick in 2016
  • Starting RG Brandon Brooks:  Signed to a 5-year deal in 2016 (previously a Texan)
  • G/C Stefen Wisneiwski:  Signed to 3-year deal in 2016 (previously a Jaguar), benched in 2018, then brought back in 2019 (presumably on a cheap deal)
  • OT Matt Pryor:  2018 6th rounder
  • OT Jordan Mailata:  2018 7th rounder
  • OT Helapoulivaati Vaitai:  2016 5th rounder
  • G Iosua Opeta:  2019 UDFA acquisition --> was projected 6th/7th rounder and compared to Kelvin Beachum

 

They did all this despite having LT Jason Peters, C Jason Kelce, and RT Lane Johnson all entrenched as starters since 2013. 

THIS is how you build an O-Line pipeline:  Draft O-Linemen every season, even if you already have plenty of depth there, and supplement with free agent pickups. 

It's also a great way to win a Super Bowl. 

 

Agreed.  Especially when you juxtapose the above with Macc's OL investments in his tenure here:

 

  • G James Carpenter:  Signed to 4-year deal in 2015
  • G Willie Colon:  Signed to a 1-year deal in 2015 (started 6 games, then never played again)
  • G Jarvis Harrison:  Drafted in 5th round in 2015 (spent 2015 on PS, then was cut in 2016)
  • OT Ryan Clady:  Received in trade for 5th rounder in 2016, got back a 7th (started 8 games then got hurt and retired)
  • OT Brandon Shell:  Drafted in 5th round in 2016 (29 starts, received a 62.7 grade from PFF last season, # 56-ranked OT)
  • LT Kelvin Beachum:  Signed to 3-year deal in 2017 (86 starts, received a 65.9 grade from PFF last season, # 48-ranked OT)
  • G/C Spencer Long:  Signed to a 4-year deal in 2018 (couldn't snap, released in February 2019)
  • G Kelechi Osemele:  Received in trade for 5th rounder in 2019, got back a 6th
  • OT Chuma Edoga:  Drafted in 3rd round in 2019

 

The Eagles had 3 entrenched starters on their O-Line prior to 2016, yet have used a 1st, 3rd, 5th, 6th, and 7th rounder on O-Linemen, and signed 2 others to significant contracts in that span.

The Jets have had O-Line problems ever since Ferguson's decline and retirement in 2015 and Mangold's decline and retirement in 2016.  But in Macc's tenure, he's only used 3 draft picks (one 3rd, two 5th's) on O-Linemen, and as a result was forced to send draft assets for older veteran band-aids like Clady (who had an awful injury history) and Osemele (probably his best move on the O-line to date) and overpay a guy like Kelvin Beachum to hold the fort at LT (and he'll need to be replaced next season).  And of course his Spencer Long signing was a complete disaster.

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The offensive line is scary thin. You have an unproven Center with mostly average starters beside him and very little proven depth behind them. One injury and they are in a sh*t load of trouble.

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2 hours ago, Bleedin Green said:

I have no problem giving Harrison a shot at the starting job, and I don't think most do, but it's the lack of a reasonable alternative / backup plan that is the red flag in this all.  When the resume features questionable play up until half a season in a player's 5th year, completely banking on the assumption of progress or even just consistency is far from guaranteed to work out.

Bottom line, it's a continuation of Maccagnan's tendency to invest minimal resources into the OL, with the only defense in this case being undeserved benefit-of-the-doubt that he'll eventually do something different later.

This team will never make a serious investment into the offensive line until Macc is gone. It obviously goes against his personal philosophy. 

Protecting the biggest investment for the future of this organization should be priority #1 and I don't think it's actually in the top 10 in his mind. It's a disgrace.

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31 minutes ago, Jetsfan80 said:

 

 

Agreed.  Especially when you juxtapose the above with Macc's OL investments in his tenure here:

 

  • G James Carpenter:  Signed to 4-year deal in 2015
  • G Willie Colon:  Signed to a 1-year deal in 2015 (started 6 games, then never played again)
  • G Jarvis Harrison:  Drafted in 5th round in 2015 (spent 2015 on PS, then was cut in 2016)
  • OT Ryan Clady:  Received in trade for 5th rounder in 2016, got back a 7th (started 8 games then got hurt and retired)
  • OT Brandon Shell:  Drafted in 5th round in 2016 (29 starts, received a 62.7 grade from PFF last season, # 56-ranked OT)
  • LT Kelvin Beachum:  Signed to 3-year deal in 2017 (86 starts, received a 65.9 grade from PFF last season, # 48-ranked OT)
  • G/C Spencer Long:  Signed to a 4-year deal in 2018 (couldn't snap, released in February 2019)
  • G Kelechi Osemele:  Received in trade for 5th rounder in 2019, got back a 6th
  • OT Chuma Edoga:  Drafted in 3rd round in 2019

 

The Eagles had 3 entrenched starters on their O-Line prior to 2016, yet have used a 1st, 3rd, 5th, 6th, and 7th rounder on O-Linemen, and signed 2 others to significant contracts in that span.

The Jets have had O-Line problems ever since Ferguson's decline and retirement in 2015 and Mangold's decline and retirement in 2016.  But in Macc's tenure, he's only used 3 draft picks (one 3rd, two 5th's) on O-Linemen, and as a result was forced to send draft assets for older veteran band-aids like Clady (who had an awful injury history) and Osemele (probably his best move on the O-line to date) and overpay a guy like Kelvin Beachum to hold the fort at LT (and he'll need to be replaced next season).  And of course his Spencer Long signing was a complete disaster.

Don’t forget that Mac traded a 2017 4th round pick to draft Shell in the 5th round in 2016.  

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4 hours ago, Chrebetfan80 said:

people were just pissed at long because his snaps were bad, im not sure anyone really took the time to look at his blocking... Longs snaps were terrible because he legitimately could not hold the ball with his snapping hand because of his finger... The fact that bowles let him continue to play there was an absolutely moronic coaching decision.  Thats why we saw his play improve when he moved to guard.  Long actually isnt a terrible center, he's average to above average at his best.  

That being said the drop off between long and harrison is very small, and with harrison still having room to progress maybe this season there wont be any drop off at all. we'll see at the end of the day. I still think we'll see a veteran center brought into camp to compete for the job. 

Pro Football focused ranked Spencer Long 26th out of 27 qualifying centers in PFF's center rankings last year. His grade was a 45.9 which is graded as poor. 

Not only was his blocking horrible for the Jets, he is the guy who is supposed to help the rookie quarterback with blitz pick ups and changing plays 😔

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9 minutes ago, choon328 said:

This team will never make a serious investment into the offensive line until Macc is gone. It obviously goes against his personal philosophy. 

Protecting the biggest investment for the future of this organization should be priority #1 and I don't think it's actually in the top 10 in his mind. It's a disgrace.

I agree with you. However, at times you are forced to go against your philosophy.

If he even had one, Darnold fell to him, if after this year Mac is still here, I can see him making a big move or 2 on the offensive line. With the lack of need, if opportunity comes up, he almost has too. 

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