Jump to content
AbstraKt

Chiefs - Jets Agree to Darron Lee trade

Recommended Posts

11 hours ago, choon328 said:

The Jets traded for a former pro bowl player in Osemele by using a 5th and getting a 6th back yet people expected more for Lee in the last year of his deal?

Osemele is a 30 year-old (or he will be next month) who makes $10M this year and $12M the year after, coming off a bad season for him.

Lee is a physically healthy, speedy 24 year-old who makes $2M. While still unworthy of his draft slot, he was coming off his best season, with visible improvement from year 1 to year 2 to year 3. If he has even a half-decent season this year as starter he'll get a veteran contract and the acquiring team (KC) can recoup more in a comp pick than they surrendered to get him in the first place.

It's not apples to apples.

Disappointment as he was for a 20th overall pick, he was a cheap backup player with years of starting experience, who can obviously start in a pinch should one of our 2 expensive starters go down, or show value in other defensive looks.

Maccagnan was a bad GM, but the only way this is a good trade is if it's being done to show who's the boss and have name players on their toes respecting his authority, and if it has that desired effect on the team. Or maybe if there's something even more that's wrong with Lee from the neck up that we don't know about yet. On paper Lee had more value to keep him than a late 6th rounder next season (trade value of a late 7th rounder this year, since we don't get to use that pick this season). 

  • Upvote 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
10 hours ago, F00tballGuy69 said:

I've been hard on Lee, but this is awful value.  I'd have been content with a pick somewhere in the middle of the 5th, but this will be a very late 6th, pretty much a 7th rounder.  Would have rather seen him stay as a backup with the off chance he played well enough to sign a decent contract somewhere else next year to fetch us a comp pick.  I'm sure Gregg Williams wanted nothing to do with the guy. 

It's pretty much a late 7th rounder. 

It's a late 6th rounder we don't get to use for another 11 months, while KC gets the player this year, not 11 months from now.

Trade value on paper = Chiefs' presumed 7th round slot in 2020. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
9 hours ago, bla bla bla said:

Honestly hate this trade, I'd rather have rolled the dice on a change of position than save $1.8M and a late 6th.

Have to agree so far, though I'm still catching up as I fell asleep early lol.

We save less than $1.8M; someone else will take his roster spot with a minimum cap hit of ~$500K or so. Cap savings is barely over $1M, which is a rounding error on a cap that's fast approaching $200M per year.

It's a statement trade not a value trade. We could have traded our 7th round pick this year for a 6th rounder next year, and it'd have been for a higher 6th rounder than we'll get for Lee.

If it's successful as a "new sheriff in town" move that keeps guys in check, then that has value. Right now it's premature to see that, as I think his reputation (as well as that of Williams) already preceded him as being not Bowles (or K.Rodgers) Part II.

It's not 1 round less than Macc wanted a month or more earlier, as Macc maybe wanted a 5th rounder this year (before the draft). A 5th rounder in 2019 is worth 2 rounds more than a 6th rounder in 2020. Neither value is earth shattering, and each is well below the initial investment in Lee, but the difference is not totally negligible.

  • Upvote 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
5 minutes ago, Augustiniak said:

i imagine that mccagnan waffled about trading lee during the draft, but ultimately decided not to admit failure with one of his former 1st round picks.  ironically he drafted lee's replacement anyway in cashman.  it's possible that mccagnan knew that lee was going to be traded by training camp anyway, and planned for this by drafting cashman but still couldn't admit that lee was a fail both on and off the field.  

this traded was clearly a statement trade that gase 1) has no desire to coach certain players and 2) will not waffle on personnel decisions.

I did say if it was a trade purely for statement, that has value. In terms of value, they didn't get much of any. They lose a cheap, young, healthy 3-year starter this year for a late 6th rounder next year.

I have no particular love for Lee as a player (nor as a person). He sold low here, so the trade's only value is the "whoa" value to the rest of the roster. Hopefully it has that effect and guys fall in line in part because of it. I can get behind that.

If he is productive for KC this year - if he's anywhere near as productive as he was last year, with his glorious top 10 PFF ranking for most of the season -  it's going to look foolish absent the Jets fielding a top 5-ish defensive unit in 2019 (something Williams has achieved once - barely - since the 2004 ended). 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Just now, Augustiniak said:

one thing that i think is going under radar with the darron lee trade, is that gase watched a lot of film on the jets D and specifically embarrassed him last year i think.  wasn't it the dolphins who tricked the jet lbs on a few tds last year where they cleared out the middle?  i think gase came in with his personnel assessments and wanted no part of lee on his defense and that's even before you consider the drug suspension.  and this was probably a point of contention with mccags b/c gms on the hot seat are generally unwilling to admit failure with a top pick. 

And this is an innate trait in the player? Then why bother with Gase in the first place if coaching and gameplanning has so little impact on player positioning and performance? 

I'm in favor of it working out by the end of the season. We'll see.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
25 minutes ago, Jets Voice of Reason said:

I agree, but I think once the Jets decided to bend over for Mosley I'd rather have the draft asset personally. Even with an improvement last year, he still wasn't going to see a lot of snaps unless someone got injured. Can't see that going over too well in a contract year.

They have backup players who were former starters like any other team. His value wouldn't have only increased in case of a Jets ILB injury, but also another team's ILB/OLB injury. The trade deadline is at the end of October. Once they didn't get a deal done for Lee before the draft, the rush to get rid of him should have gone along with it.

I don't care what would have gone over too well in a contract year. He made his own bed; it'd have been a good way for him to grow up, with the Jets holding a trade chess piece for the next 5 months. How many backup LBs does the team have that are right now better than Lee? Roster trimming won't occur for some time, so it's unlikely his replacement on a 90-man roster will prove more valuable.

Draft asset is not a part of this trade when you're talking about a late 6th round pick you can't use for over 11 months; they could have recouped such a pick by trading down 1 slot in any mid-round pick this year (or a couple slots next year), so this was purely about getting him out of the building asap not accumulating trade value. They may be right to have done it. We'll see.

  • Upvote 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
9 minutes ago, Augustiniak said:

don't understand this response.  my point was that gase knew lee sucked and wanted mccagnan to trade him, that's why he traded him when he could.

You don't understand? So no young players who previously looked sucky under substandard coaching will improve by virtue of Gase's (and/or Williams's) coaching. That is your inference, to which I was alluding. 

I think it's presumptuous to guess reasons why Crazy Eyes wants or doesn't want anything just yet.

I wanted Maccagnan gone. I'm happy he is gone, even if it's years late. That doesn't therefore make Gase a good GM, nor even a better one than the dufus he's interim-replacing. If Macc rather than Gase had traded Lee for a late 6th round pick a full season later I'd be no less critical, and I sense many are giving Gase an unearned benefit of the doubt here. 

Sometimes a player has more value to a team than he has on a trade market. Especially when teams are flooded with 90-player rosters after the FA wave and draft is over. I'd have waited for an injury to any of 31 other teams (including KC), as I don't see the rush to move him in mid-May. But I'm not coaching the team so admittedly I have that luxury.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
10 minutes ago, Augustiniak said:

by picking cashman, you can infer that's an admission they were going to get rid of lee at some point anyway.  with the roster the jets have, how much would lee have played this year, and what could he have fetched in return in a trade - maybe a 5th or a 4th, maybe, if he doesn't get suspended again or injured.  

lee doesn't seem like the type of player who will improve that much with different coaching.  his lack of size and inability to play physically limits him to what he did best at OSU - running free behind giant DLs.  in the nfl his ability to do this unimpeded is reduced as is his value.  

You'll never know. Everything changes everything. Starters are in on different plays and maybe Mosely or Anderson gets injured with or without Lee. Maybe his trade value rises in August as 2-3 other teams lose similar players. This was the ultimate sell low. 

As to your specifics, I disagree that what a player is by age 24 (all under the same coaching he's had since getting drafted) is all he's ever going to be. 

His value was lowered due to the suspension and what seems to be a poorly-kept secret that the CS didn't want him. On the field there were worse starters in the league and will be this year as well. Plus he's young and cheap and healthy. 

Look at the Sheldon Richardson trade. If the Jets could have gotten a 2nd rounder for him in the preceding May they surely would have. What changed, other than the passage of time to change Seattle's minds?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
5 minutes ago, Snell41 said:

 


More likely a player that starts on a team for years because the FO and former coach are trying to save face for the fact they wasted a first round puck on a guy who’s not good at all. Trust me, Darren Lee will not be in the league in 2020.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

In that case the trade will look better in hindsight.

Right now he's a physically healthy, 24 year-old, 3 year starter coming off a glorious top-25 PFF ranking lol.

Not everyone sees him as talentless. This time in 2017 no one was offering a 2nd rounder for Richardson. At the end of the summer Seattle made the calculation that they'd probably/hopefully recoup a 3rd round comp pick a year later so they weren't giving up much even if they didn't extend him. Sometimes situations and perceptions change that cause a player's value to rise higher than it was 3 weeks after the draft.

Or he could be in rehab in KC in a month and never plays again. Too early to say.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
14 minutes ago, LionelRichie said:

"on paper" is a myth.   The value in a market is determined by what buyer is willing to pay and what the seller is willing to accept.   I am sure the Jets contacted 28 teams to unload Lee and this is the best that they could do. 

I actually wouldn't be surprised if Macc had a slightly better draft day offer that he rejected to save face for yet another bad draft pick but Lee's value dropped significantly once the Jets signed Mosely so he's worth what they received in return.   

On paper how many teams do you imagine offered up a future 2nd round pick for Sheldon Richardson in May of 2017? I'm sure they contacted just as many teams for him as they did for Lee, and have a hard time believing they passed on that only to grudgingly accept it 3+ months later. 

On paper is the value of the pick. A pick that can be used this year has the "on paper" value of a pick a round higher next year; inversely, a pick next year has the value of a round lower this year. That is how NFL teams make those trades. Like when Macc traded a 5th rounder in 2017 for a 4th rounder in 2016 so he could draft Shell. It's a commonly used value.

A late 6th round pick a season later = a late 7th rounder this year. KC gets a player this year; we don't get our pick until a year later.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
4 minutes ago, Snell41 said:

 

Actually pretty much the entire league sees him as talentless. For a 24yo “pff top 25” player you’d think there’d be some offers. Nobody wants this guy playing LB for them. Victor Hobson was a 2nd round pick starter for us for years, had some decent stats and was 27 when we cut him. Pats took a look, cut him in camp and he was out of the league. Quentin Coples has some reasonable stats too, out of the league shortly after we cut him.

 

The indictment is the fact we took him and started him in the first place, not that we got nothing in return.

 

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Coples also got a contract from another team before that team cut him. FFS the year he got here Maccagnan exercised his 5th year option after seeing him from afar in Houston. No different.

I don't have a high opinion of Lee and never have. That said, there are surely worse starters out there. 

Is Osemele trash? All Oakland got was a 5th rounder and gave up their own 6th rounder to even get that.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
12 minutes ago, Bleedin Green said:

While I agree there was potential to get more for him at some point, it was far from a guarantee, and at this point it almost seems to have been a foregone conclusion that Lee was not going to be on the team this year (how good/bad of a mindset that is, is another argument).  If that's truly the case, I don't think this is a great coup, but not a big negative either.  That is of course assuming this is an outlier, and not any type of regular occurrence to come, which would of course mean very different things.

From my perspective, as low-value as 6th round pick may be, I would give no support to the Jets trading theirs for a player on a one-year deal, that they would have no interest in extending, who would be definitively locked into a backup role at a position the team has already invested excessive /  record-breaking amounts of money in multiple starters, plus added backup FA signings/draft picks as well.  That's what the Jets would ultimately be doing by turning down the deal, so I don't really blame them too much.

It's already a bigger deal than I'd have made of it, but it seems like more as I was responding to multiple people. Plus I'm an argumentative prick.

I certainly don't think his value would have ballooned up to a 2nd rounder if only we'd waited a few months.

If they wanted to make a statement, this lowered return is part of the cost. It may prove worth the cost, and I hope it does.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
9 minutes ago, choon328 said:

The Jets will be active in FA again next year, especially with a new GM, so they won't receive any comp picks again in 2021 for Lee or anybody. If a player is on the last year of his deal and you have no plans to keep him then it makes more sense to move him now for an asset then lose him for nothing in FA. It's a pretty simple concept that pretty much every successful team utilizes. 

I was referring to KC recouping a comp pick later, not the Jets.

Also see my post just above this. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites



Content Partnership

Yes Network

Site Sponsor

MILE-Social - NJ Social Media & SEO company
×
×
  • Create New...