Interesting insight from Chris Simms

[Scott Dierking]

9 hours ago, Matt39 said:

From Breer:

Coaches were lukewarm on Bell, was an ownership decision. Coaches wanted Mosely. Ed Oliver was probably ranked higher by coaches, but Mac went safe. Overall, Maccagnan was soft and incapable of making a firm decision.

https://www.si.com/nfl/2019/05/16/new-york-jets-mike-maccagnan-adam-gase-joe-douglas?utm_source=twitter.com&utm_campaign=themmqb&utm_medium=social&__twitter_impression=true

 

This indecision is bugging me.

[jamesr]

1 minute ago, Scott Dierking said:

This indecision is bugging me.

If you don't want Macc set him free ...  

[#27TheDominator]

On 5/16/2019 at 11:39 PM, Philc1 said:

Bell is an extremely overrated signing.  But he’s here now hopefully he smartens up and acts like a professional from now on this isn’t the Herm bbq era or Bowles drooling on himself we have an actual coaching staff

I hear this every time that we get a new staff.  The only time there was ny discernable improvement was Rex which was going from a hard ass to a player's coach.

On 5/16/2019 at 9:58 PM, Matt39 said:

From Breer:

Quote

The coaches ranked Quinnen Williams above Houston DT Ed Oliver, but gushed over Oliver in meetings. This was seen, again, as coaches covering themselves on both ends of a decision, this time openly lusting for one player while toeing the line on the league-wide consensus that the other was better.

 

That bit is a little scary.  We've seen plenty of it around here. People love a player, but won't stand up for him at a spot.  Most of the Mahomes guys were there last year - they loved Mahomes, but I don't remember many being willing to put their names on him at 6. League -wide consensus is bullsh*t.  These are the ******* guys that are supposed to create the consensus. 

On 5/17/2019 at 7:34 AM, rangerous said:

good points, even about idzik.  i suspect rex had a lot to do with getting idzik launched along with himself. 

Idzik got dumped because he tried to sabotage Rex.  It is understandable since he was stuck with the guy, but he failed miserably - intentionally ******* Rex at CB.  his complete inability to articulate  rational thought at the press conference probably didn't help either.

[rangerous]

1 minute ago, #27TheDominator said:

I hear this every time that we get a new staff.  The only time there was ny discernable improvement was Rex which was going from a hard ass to a player's coach.

That bit is a little scary.  We've seen plenty of it around here. People love a player, but won't stand up for him at a spot.  Most of the Mahomes guys were there last year - they loved Mahomes, but I don't remember many being willing to put their names on him at 6. League -wide consensus is bullsh*t.  These are the ******* guys that are supposed to create the consensus. 

Idzik got dumped because he tried to sabotage Rex.  It is understandable since he was stuck with the guy, but he failed misearbly - intentionally ******* Rex at CB.  his complete inability to articulate  rational thought at the press conference probably didn't help either.

so you think idzik knowingly flubbed all of those draft picks to get rex?  i don't think so.  he may have tried in other ways but in reality rex deserved it.  he was running a circus.

[#27TheDominator]

4 minutes ago, rangerous said:

so you think idzik knowingly flubbed all of those draft picks to get rex?  i don't think so.  he may have tried in other ways but in reality rex deserved it.  he was running a circus.

He didn't flub draft picks to "get" Rex.  He didn't sign any FA corners except for Dimitri Patterson who may be insane.  If Milliner wasn't made of glass things may have turned out very differently. 

[Philc1]

7 hours ago, rangerous said:

so you think idzik knowingly flubbed all of those draft picks to get rex?  i don't think so.  he may have tried in other ways but in reality rex deserved it.  he was running a circus.

Idzik not signing a NFL caliber starting CB with $30 million in cap room is sabotage

[win4ever]

On 5/17/2019 at 6:34 AM, rangerous said:

good points, even about idzik.  i suspect rex had a lot to do with getting idzik launched along with himself.  one of idzik's weakness was his lack of scouting and talent evaluation ability.  mac was supposed to be some sort of college scouting guru.  i don't think i ever heard he was going to be launched by the texans before he was hired.  that was a stupid hire on so many levels.

and i don't see why the jets were going to consider a college guy to be their head coach.  they needed someone with instant credibility to turn things around.  at the time i was wanting mccarthy but that, in hindsight, may not have been the best guy.  imo gase is going to be better than people think at the moment.

I think with Idzik, he didn't know how to handle scouts or Rex.  Calvin Pryor was a complete Rex pick, because it made no sense in team construction.  They already had a SS in Allen, only to pick a hard hitting smash mouth type player that didn't fit the team at at all.  

2013: 

Dee Milliner was the No. 1 CB prospect, and the team valued CBs under Rex.  That's definitely a value pick, especially since they sent Revis away.  This is similar to everyone pining for an edge rusher this year.  It was a needs/bpa match.  

Sheldon Richardson started out as a stud, and then got lost in the locker room drama.   I can't argue with the pick, because Sheldon looked like a star in the making, and then fell off.  

Geno Smith:  I see a lot of folks giving the Broncos props for picking Lock this year, when Geno was supposed to be in the mix for the No. 1 pick.  Heck, there were reports the Jets would trade up in the first for him.  In the second, that's a great value pick based on scouted potential.  

2014:  

Calvin Pryor was a complete Rex Ryan pick, because it made no sense in team construction.  They had a SS in Allen, and didn't need a hard hitting SS, with a penchant for blown assignments.  It was clear Rex fell in love with the player and wanted him.  

That draft was deep in WRs, and he picked 3 essentially.  By sheer numbers, picking three in a deep pool is bound to pay off with one hit, with probability.  Unfortunately, none of the 3 hit while he was still employed, which led to his firing because Enunwa was basically hanging on at the practice squad.  

I think his biggest error was not moving from those picks to get some the next year.  He couldn't add 12 guys to the roster, but made all those picks, which was too much.  

As a GM, he had the right idea in finding value, and not overpaying.  He didn't overpay for Decker, and refused to overpay for Rogers-Cromartie.  However, his bargain basement finds turned out to be disasters.  

In steps Mccagnan, who is pretty much the opposite.  I don't think he has any concept of value relative to the team.

Look at his negotiations.  Paid what Mo Wilkerson was asking because he didn't have the foresight to sign him earlier, which then turned into a disaster.  He negotiated against himself for Ryan Fitzpatrick.  He paid McCown $10 million to be a coach.  He paid Revis what he wanted.  His lacked the ability to not dip his toes into the big fish at free agency because he doesn't understand team construction.  He was willing to pay through the nose for Cousins.  And Barr.  To me, all he sees is a player.  Either he thinks it's a good player or bad player, but pretty much doesn't know how to negotiate or read the market in free agency.

 

  Just his drafts, he has the first round basically fall into his lap, and then I think he tried to play the smart GM, who found the gem.  When Chris Ballard finds Darius Leonard, who people thought was over-drafted, it looks like a genius move.  When you spend a 2nd on Hackenberg, or a 3rd on Shepard, it looks like an idiotic move.  Almost every draft, I saw him go for scouting reaches, which made no sense.  

2015:  Lorenzo Mauldin

2016: Hackenberg

2017: ArDarius Stewart - 

2018:  Shepard

I don't mind taking risks with the picks, but you need to find value elsewhere which allows you the luxury of taking risks.  The Chiefs can take the risk on a Mecole Harman because they have an incredibly cheap superstar QB. Mccagnan had no other avenues where he found constant value, so when these risks don't work out, you lose. 

Look at Chris Ballard.  He's the poster child for stud GM now, and what does he do with the biggest cap space?

Extends his breakout CB in Pierre-Desir

Signs a short term deal with Justin Houston

They played it safe.  They could have gone nuts adding players like Mosley or Bell, but they didn't, because the value wasn't there.  He took risks in the draft (honestly, didn't love their choices, but with his results last year, I'm not in a position to question it).  He's essentially Idzik in understanding value, and Mccagnan in taking risks, but the better version of the two.  Unfortunately, the Jets got guys that only had one side of the equation.  

I have no problem with college hires, but they need to have something unique.  The rah rah guys that get their college teams to rally around the team spirit don't work out as often, because millionaire players aren't going to buy in like that.  I didn't have an issue with Kingsbury, because his offensive system is actually very much in vogue with the NFL now.  Same with someone like Lincoln Riley.  The issue with Rhule was that, he didn't really have anything that stood out with him.  Honestly, he just felt like another Bowles, someone who won't make much a fuss once he's hired.  A safe hire in terms of being undermined.  

I think Gase will be better than people think, but I'm also not sure how much I value what people think.  Look back at the Fitzpatrick free agency, and how many people (and media including Mehta/Cimini) clamored for him to be resigned, and how he was such a leader of men.  The media doesn't care one bit about reporting the news, and I don't blame them.  I still do some of the film reviews, and some on Titans, and I know those articles barely get clicks.  If I cherry picked 5 plays from Miami last year and said, proof Gase is an idiot, I bet it would get considerably higher views.  It's the same thing that the media does, because they get paid for people to react and interact, rather than be educated.  And there is a large number of folks that buy into every word.  

Want a current example? 99% of fans couldn't tell you who Joe Douglas was if he punched them in the face last week.  This week? Absolute disaster if the Jets don't sign him as the GM.  The media hypes him as a stud GM candidate.  If he gets hired?  Well, there you Jets fans, a great hire and read about why as you click here.  If he doesn't get hired?  What a terrible loss for the Jets, once again screw it up with dysfunction.  Either way, the media gets clicks and earn money.  

[roscoeword]

1 hour ago, win4ever said:

I think with Idzik, he didn't know how to handle scouts or Rex.  Calvin Pryor was a complete Rex pick, because it made no sense in team construction.  They already had a SS in Allen, only to pick a hard hitting smash mouth type player that didn't fit the team at at all.  

2013: 

Dee Milliner was the No. 1 CB prospect, and the team valued CBs under Rex.  That's definitely a value pick, especially since they sent Revis away.  This is similar to everyone pining for an edge rusher this year.  It was a needs/bpa match.  

Sheldon Richardson started out as a stud, and then got lost in the locker room drama.   I can't argue with the pick, because Sheldon looked like a star in the making, and then fell off.  

Geno Smith:  I see a lot of folks giving the Broncos props for picking Lock this year, when Geno was supposed to be in the mix for the No. 1 pick.  Heck, there were reports the Jets would trade up in the first for him.  In the second, that's a great value pick based on scouted potential.  

2014:  

Calvin Pryor was a complete Rex Ryan pick, because it made no sense in team construction.  They had a SS in Allen, and didn't need a hard hitting SS, with a penchant for blown assignments.  It was clear Rex fell in love with the player and wanted him.  

That draft was deep in WRs, and he picked 3 essentially.  By sheer numbers, picking three in a deep pool is bound to pay off with one hit, with probability.  Unfortunately, none of the 3 hit while he was still employed, which led to his firing because Enunwa was basically hanging on at the practice squad.  

I think his biggest error was not moving from those picks to get some the next year.  He couldn't add 12 guys to the roster, but made all those picks, which was too much.  

As a GM, he had the right idea in finding value, and not overpaying.  He didn't overpay for Decker, and refused to overpay for Rogers-Cromartie.  However, his bargain basement finds turned out to be disasters.  

In steps Mccagnan, who is pretty much the opposite.  I don't think he has any concept of value relative to the team.

Look at his negotiations.  Paid what Mo Wilkerson was asking because he didn't have the foresight to sign him earlier, which then turned into a disaster.  He negotiated against himself for Ryan Fitzpatrick.  He paid McCown $10 million to be a coach.  He paid Revis what he wanted.  His lacked the ability to not dip his toes into the big fish at free agency because he doesn't understand team construction.  He was willing to pay through the nose for Cousins.  And Barr.  To me, all he sees is a player.  Either he thinks it's a good player or bad player, but pretty much doesn't know how to negotiate or read the market in free agency.

 

  Just his drafts, he has the first round basically fall into his lap, and then I think he tried to play the smart GM, who found the gem.  When Chris Ballard finds Darius Leonard, who people thought was over-drafted, it looks like a genius move.  When you spend a 2nd on Hackenberg, or a 3rd on Shepard, it looks like an idiotic move.  Almost every draft, I saw him go for scouting reaches, which made no sense.  

2015:  Lorenzo Mauldin

2016: Hackenberg

2017: ArDarius Stewart - 

2018:  Shepard

I don't mind taking risks with the picks, but you need to find value elsewhere which allows you the luxury of taking risks.  The Chiefs can take the risk on a Mecole Harman because they have an incredibly cheap superstar QB. Mccagnan had no other avenues where he found constant value, so when these risks don't work out, you lose. 

Look at Chris Ballard.  He's the poster child for stud GM now, and what does he do with the biggest cap space?

Extends his breakout CB in Pierre-Desir

Signs a short term deal with Justin Houston

They played it safe.  They could have gone nuts adding players like Mosley or Bell, but they didn't, because the value wasn't there.  He took risks in the draft (honestly, didn't love their choices, but with his results last year, I'm not in a position to question it).  He's essentially Idzik in understanding value, and Mccagnan in taking risks, but the better version of the two.  Unfortunately, the Jets got guys that only had one side of the equation.  

I have no problem with college hires, but they need to have something unique.  The rah rah guys that get their college teams to rally around the team spirit don't work out as often, because millionaire players aren't going to buy in like that.  I didn't have an issue with Kingsbury, because his offensive system is actually very much in vogue with the NFL now.  Same with someone like Lincoln Riley.  The issue with Rhule was that, he didn't really have anything that stood out with him.  Honestly, he just felt like another Bowles, someone who won't make much a fuss once he's hired.  A safe hire in terms of being undermined.  

I think Gase will be better than people think, but I'm also not sure how much I value what people think.  Look back at the Fitzpatrick free agency, and how many people (and media including Mehta/Cimini) clamored for him to be resigned, and how he was such a leader of men.  The media doesn't care one bit about reporting the news, and I don't blame them.  I still do some of the film reviews, and some on Titans, and I know those articles barely get clicks.  If I cherry picked 5 plays from Miami last year and said, proof Gase is an idiot, I bet it would get considerably higher views.  It's the same thing that the media does, because they get paid for people to react and interact, rather than be educated.  And there is a large number of folks that buy into every word.  

Want a current example? 99% of fans couldn't tell you who Joe Douglas was if he punched them in the face last week.  This week? Absolute disaster if the Jets don't sign him as the GM.  The media hypes him as a stud GM candidate.  If he gets hired?  Well, there you Jets fans, a great hire and read about why as you click here.  If he doesn't get hired?  What a terrible loss for the Jets, once again screw it up with dysfunction.  Either way, the media gets clicks and earn money.  

Awesome post. Totally substantive. Thanks 

[jamesr]

7 hours ago, win4ever said:

2014:  

Calvin Pryor was a complete Rex Ryan pick, because it made no sense in team construction.  They had a SS in Allen, and didn't need a hard hitting SS, with a penchant for blown assignments.  It was clear Rex fell in love with the player and wanted him.  

 

It was Idzik who first saw Pryor - he then called him out to Rex saying something like "you're gonna love this guy".

EDIT - here's an article that covers this

https://eu.courier-journal.com/story/adam-himmelsbach/2014/05/09/rex-ryan-on-calvin-pryor/8891909/

Quote

REX RYAN: I think John (Idzik) had told me about Calvin during the year. He said, "Hey, I just saw a guy that you're going to absolutely love." 

 

[jack48]

On 5/16/2019 at 9:28 PM, T0mShane said:

Imagine being gospel-quotin’ Matt Rhule and you’re about to get your first NFL gig and Mike Maccagnan tells you your coordinators are going to be two extremely bitter, notoriously hostile, recently-deposed head coaches, each of whom would kill you in your sleep to take your job 

Glory is fleeting

[jack48]

Sheldon would have been a magnificent LB----given time, of course

[MichaelScott]

On 5/16/2019 at 9:24 PM, Beerfish said:

How do you know we dodged that bullet?  Gase's resume is so so at best and we have just handed him the keys to the sports car.

We handed him the keys to a Daewoo. 

[Jetmech]

Didn't he go 13-11 with Tannehill who was just traded for peanuts to be a backup in Tennessee?  
His record with Cutler (out of the league), Matt Moore (out of the league) and Osweiller (should be out of the league) was bad, but not quite sure you can pin their failures on a head coach. 

It’s funny how the qb’s above had good games against the Jets.....


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Beerfish]

20 minutes ago, MichaelScott said:

We handed him the keys to a Daewoo. 

Well as I said in another post, I consider darnold a sports car the rest of the team, yugo maybe.

[MichaelScott]

2 hours ago, Beerfish said:

Well as I said in another post, I consider darnold a sports car the rest of the team, yugo maybe.

Absolutely. Sam might be the only thing to feel good about at this point. Although, I'm seriously starting to have concerns that this franchise is going to doom the kid. 

[bitonti]

On 5/16/2019 at 9:36 PM, Philc1 said:

And what amazing things are on the Rhule resume?

he turned around Temple which is ridiculous and then Baylor after being wiped out by a sex scandal 

these are exactly the type of experience required to turn the losing 4-12 Jets around 

here's a question what amazing things are on Gase's resume 

 

this is much ado about nothing

the Jets would have needed like 10 mil to buy him out of his remaining Baylor deal, he was never a serious candidate 

 

[Apache 51]

On 5/16/2019 at 9:37 PM, Saul Goodman said:

I’ve been one of Maccagnan’s biggest critics for several years now. However, he wasn’t a bad hire just because he didn’t work out. We all wanted someone with a scouting background. He was qualified for the GM job, regardless of whether Houston intended to fire him. 

Qualified and execution are two different things. He was a bad hire.

[Jet Nut]

On 5/16/2019 at 9:24 PM, Beerfish said:

How do you know we dodged that bullet?  Gase's resume is so so at best and we have just handed him the keys to the sports car.

So you would handed the keys over to Ruhle his record of 4 games under .500?  And let him bring in two coordinators without any NFL exp?  

That would make so much sense, a Baylor OC would definately be the right guy to mentor Darnold. 

[Jet Nut]

3 hours ago, bitonti said:

and then Baylor after being wiped out by a sex scandal 

Two seasons at Baylor and a record of 8-17 is hardly impressive or a a turn around

[Beerfish]

46 minutes ago, Jet Nut said:

So you would handed the keys over to Ruhle his record of 4 games under .500?  And let him bring in two coordinators without any NFL exp?  

That would make so much sense, a Baylor OC would definately be the right guy to mentor Darnold. 

The scenario was rhule with gase and williams as coordinators.  I would have rather had mccarthy of the names kicked around.

[section314]

4 hours ago, bitonti said:

he turned around Temple which is ridiculous and then Baylor after being wiped out by a sex scandal 

these are exactly the type of experience required to turn the losing 4-12 Jets around 

here's a question what amazing things are on Gase's resume 

 

this is much ado about nothing

the Jets would have needed like 10 mil to buy him out of his remaining Baylor deal, he was never a serious candidate 

 

Gase got rid of Macc. And as a coach he beat us like a pulp for 3 years. 

[IndianaJet]

19 hours ago, win4ever said:

Want a current example? 99% of fans couldn't tell you who Joe Douglas was if he punched them in the face last week.  This week? Absolute disaster if the Jets don't sign him as the GM.  The media hypes him as a stud GM candidate.  If he gets hired?  Well, there you Jets fans, a great hire and read about why as you click here.  If he doesn't get hired?  What a terrible loss for the Jets, once again screw it up with dysfunction.  Either way, the media gets clicks and earn money.  

And if you looked at the Eagles last couple of drafts (although Douglas wasn't the final say) - you'd might just want Macc back.

[Jet Nut]

3 hours ago, Beerfish said:

The scenario was rhule with gase and williams as coordinators.  I would have rather had mccarthy of the names kicked around.

No one knows this was the case.  No one knows that they offered Ruhle anything, with or without assts.  

McCarthy and Gase were my choices.  Wanted a HC with experience.  Both had some questions, McCarthy had a HOF QB questioning his playcalling and offense.  He was said to be too old school.  I figured Gase was the better choice, especially given the presence of Darnold 

[win4ever]

17 hours ago, jamesr said:

It was Idzik who first saw Pryor - he then called him out to Rex saying something like "you're gonna love this guy".

EDIT - here's an article that covers this

https://eu.courier-journal.com/story/adam-himmelsbach/2014/05/09/rex-ryan-on-calvin-pryor/8891909/

 

I think he scouted him as a good player and told Rex that, but that pick fits much more about Rex's philosophy.  That whole pick didn't make sense.  

[win4ever]

5 hours ago, IndianaJet said:

And if you looked at the Eagles last couple of drafts (although Douglas wasn't the final say) - you'd might just want Macc back.

He's a good candidate, but I'm not sure he's like the last great GM candidate out there, which is what the media seems to be pushing at this point.  

I want a GM that knows how to handle a roster, not just scout or cap.  I think one of the big issues when a team turns towards success (which we hope happens with Darnold) is to know which players to let go and value comp picks, and avoid over-paying, and knowing when to look for bargain bin options.  

I like the guy from Indy as an option as well, but to be honest, I don't expect many in the media to be knowledgeable of any of these guys.  I don't know either.  It's a game of networking, so it's hard to tell which guy is actually good.  

[Philc1]

15 hours ago, bitonti said:

he turned around Temple which is ridiculous and then Baylor after being wiped out by a sex scandal 

these are exactly the type of experience required to turn the losing 4-12 Jets around 

here's a question what amazing things are on Gase's resume 

 

this is much ado about nothing

the Jets would have needed like 10 mil to buy him out of his remaining Baylor deal, he was never a serious candidate 

 

By “turning around Temple” you mean an 18-20 record?

[Philc1]

11 hours ago, IndianaJet said:

And if you looked at the Eagles last couple of drafts (although Douglas wasn't the final say) - you'd might just want Macc back.

Didn’t the eagles just win a super bowl?

[IndianaJet]

27 minutes ago, Philc1 said:

Didn’t the eagles just win a super bowl?

You want to tell me that he was instrumental in picking and brining over the right free agents, including Nick Foles, that got the Eagles over the hump....that's one thing.

But if the big thing about this guy is he's a great talent evaluator particularly when it comes to college scouting (and I honestly don't know what his niche is) then go look at those drafts and you tell me if you think Douglas is the right guy for the job.

I'm not saying he isn't....I'm not saying he is....all I'm saying is don't fall victim (like I initially did) to all this hype about him being the next great GM in the league.....because if you look strictly at how the Eagles have drafted since he's been there, then you might have different thoughts.

[Philc1]

1 hour ago, IndianaJet said:

You want to tell me that he was instrumental in picking and brining over the right free agents, including Nick Foles, that got the Eagles over the hump....that's one thing.

But if the big thing about this guy is he's a great talent evaluator particularly when it comes to college scouting (and I honestly don't know what his niche is) then go look at those drafts and you tell me if you think Douglas is the right guy for the job.

I'm not saying he isn't....I'm not saying he is....all I'm saying is don't fall victim (like I initially did) to all this hype about him being the next great GM in the league.....because if you look strictly at how the Eagles have drafted since he's been there, then you might have different thoughts.

We have no idea what Douglas is.  There is literally no way to know what a GM candidate is until he gets in the job unless it’s a guy with a track record like Bill Polian who we can never get thanks to the Johnsons being such a sh-tshow

[bitonti]

3 hours ago, Philc1 said:

By “turning around Temple” you mean an 18-20 record?

Matt Rhule went 28-23 at Temple including his final two seasons were 10-3 and 10-4

he went 19-13 in conference 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Matt_Rhule

 

I think 18-20 is actually Josh Rosen's starting record at UCLA 

[bitonti]

16 hours ago, Jet Nut said:

Two seasons at Baylor and a record of 8-17 is hardly impressive or a a turn around

In the context of what happened it was impressive

season 1 you lose an entire recruiting class under NCAA sanction and go 1-11 

the next year, season 2, the media predict Baylor to finish 9th, they finish 6th in the conference go 7-6 overall

that's a 1 year rebuild in Texas college football, exceeding expectations. 

side note there are no gimmies on Baylor's schedule 

this year they lost at #6 Oklahoma, at #9 Texas, at #13 West Virginia at #23 Iowa State 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2018_Baylor_Bears_football_team

[Jet Nut]

1 minute ago, bitonti said:

In the context of what happened it was impressive

season 1 you lose an entire recruiting class under NCAA sanction and go 1-11 

the next year, season 2, the media predict Baylor to finish 9th, they finish 6th in the conference go 7-6 overall

that's a 1 year rebuild in Texas college football, exceeding expectations. 

side note there are no gimmies on Baylor's schedule 

this year they lost at #6 Oklahoma, at #9 Texas, at #13 West Virginia at #23 Iowa State 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2018_Baylor_Bears_football_team

None of these reasons change his 8-17 record into turning around the program.