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MIN already feeling the Cousins Cap Crush


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10 minutes ago, JetsFanatic said:

Tannenbaum was a spender. Idzik and Maccagnan were much more conservative with money.

When it comes to football I subscribe to Parcells' "You are what your record says you are"

the Tannenbaum era was the last time this team saw any kind of success

Now, some define success as firing everyone at the end of the year and being a lean 4-12, ready to pounce when that perfect FA gets to the market 

or having the highest draft pick 

here's a crazy thought: Success is success 

yes I'd rather be 8-7-1 than 4-12  

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Teams without Brady (or a Drew Brees/Aaron Rodgers-esque reasonable facsimile) or a young phenom usually hope for the best by trying to build superteams around affordable journeymen or paying a premium for a veteran and hoping for some MVP seasons as a result. The Vikings flew straight into the pitcher plant with Cousins by paying a premium for a journeyman whose only hope for an MVP season comes from being surrounded by a superteam.

I think this is a crock of sh*t.  Cousins doesn't need a super team.  Just a good one. In the last decade the super bowl has been won by a QB on his rookie deal 3 times, but Wilson was the only legit one.  Wentz missed the playoffs and Foles wasn't on his rookie deal and Flacco was in his 5th year (contract was before the new CBA) and would have been playing on a very expensive 5th year option.  The only QBs on their rookie deal to lose the QB were Goff,  Wilson and Kaepernick.  Newton was in the first year of an extension signed rather than have him play on the 5th year option at around 10% of the team's cap.  Over the last decade, Russell Wilson is the only QB to win a super bowl in his first 4 years in the league.

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22 minutes ago, bitonti said:

individual negotiations aside, the Jets never spend up to the cap 

even right now after all their splurges they are like 30 mil under 

the team is usually more concerned about staying above the floor 

 

Nonsense on the cap room.  We'd be close if Barr didn't back out. Somehow leaving 8 mil in case it's needed for injury whatever is frugal today.  What the hell, spend just to spend.  Want to know how you determine frugal or spending?  The guaranteed. Only, the signing bonuses.  The money that has to be paid out.  Not how close they are to the cap in contracts that are worthless.  Never mind the Jets geared toward this offseason and then out spent everyone.  

Frugal.

Funny thing is this is coming in a thread about money earmarked  for Cousins.  The guy we offered, right or wrong, an all time biggest guaranteed 3 year contract in the history of the sport. And another huge deal for Barr.

Thats turned into being frugal somehow

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18 minutes ago, Jet Nut said:

Nonsense on the cap room.  We'd be close if Barr didn't back out. Somehow leaving 8 mil in case it's needed for injury whatever is frugal today.  What the hell, spend just to spend.  Want to know how you determine frugal or spending?  The guaranteed. Only, the signing bonuses.  The money that has to be paid out.  Not how close they are to the cap in contracts that are worthless.  Never mind the Jets geared toward this offseason and then out spent everyone.  

Frugal.

Funny thing is this is coming in a thread about money earmarked  for Cousins.  The guy we offered, right or wrong, an all time biggest guaranteed 3 year contract in the history of the sport. And another huge deal for Barr.

Thats turned into being frugal somehow

the Jets ran out of players to spend it on... All these pass rushers never even made it to market. The difference between the Jets and the Vikings isn't just their FA spending. 

the other side of the coin they overpaid for Sam Darnold by any reasonable interpretation of any trade chart 

3 second round picks and instant HOF guard Quenton Nelson is a bounty 

we can't honestly say Cousins/Nelson/3 second rounders is better than Darnold plus cap space that turned into Bell, Crowder/Mosley and more cap space. We hope it's true and it looks like a good long term bet but if you had to win a game tomorrow which is better? 

 

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18 minutes ago, #27TheDominator said:

I think this is a crock of sh*t.  Cousins doesn't need a super team.  Just a good one. In the last decade the super bowl has been won by a QB on his rookie deal 3 times, but Wilson was the only legit one.  Wentz missed the playoffs and Foles wasn't on his rookie deal and Flacco was in his 5th year (contract was before the new CBA) and would have been playing on a very expensive 5th year option.  The only QBs on their rookie deal to lose the QB were Goff,  Wilson and Kaepernick.  Newton was in the first year of an extension signed rather than have him play on the 5th year option at around 10% of the team's cap.  Over the last decade, Russell Wilson is the only QB to win a super bowl in his first 4 years in the league.

it doesn't really make sense to expect a player at the hardest position in all of team sports to be good enough to win a SB within their 1st 4 years in the league. 

it's hopeful and works on paper but the hard part is the 21 year old QB isn't ready to do all that 

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16 minutes ago, bitonti said:

the Jets ran out of players to spend it on... All these pass rushers never even made it to market. The difference between the Jets and the Vikings isn't just their FA spending. 

the other side of the coin they overpaid for Sam Darnold by any reasonable interpretation of any trade chart 

3 second round picks and instant HOF guard Quenton Nelson is a bounty 

we can't honestly say Cousins/Nelson/3 second rounders is better than Darnold plus cap space that turned into Bell, Crowder/Mosley and more cap space. We hope it's true and it looks like a good long term bet but if you had to win a game tomorrow which is better? 

 

They didn't even come close to overpaying for that trade up.  Those charts aren't scripture.  This was a draft that we had to get up to 3.

I'm not Mac fan but that was the best move he made as GM - even if we didn't end up the Sam it was still a great trade.

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16 hours ago, Jet_Engine1 said:

Coulda been us. Bad AND  a terrible cap situation. 

 

Good riddance, Mac. 

that's not necessarily true.  not trying to defend mac or anything but they would have had him for maybe 3 seasons.  they just spent a ton and are still well under a cap so if they did sign cousins they would only have to pay out for 2 more seasons and when that season came around there would only be a couple of players worth paying large contracts to.  the point is the contract timing for the jets was much better than for the vikings.  the vikings were a win now team and had the high salaries that go with it.

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3 hours ago, bitonti said:

Kyle Rudolph is a 29 year old tight end who claims he too young to take a pay cut. If he were a NYJ we'd have crucified him by now 

 

they play tomorrow, what's the line? MIN -6 probably maybe MIN -3 at MetLife 

with or without Rudolph

You've gotten bitter bit ...

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1 hour ago, Jetsfan80 said:

I don't intend to re-litigate this dispute.

At that time, I wanted to sign a guy who for the past four years now has been a top 10, 4,000+ Passing Yard, 2/1 TD/INT, 65%+ Completion guy at QB.  A guy whose average season the past four years would be the all-time greatest season for a NY Jets QB.

Was he expensive, absolutely.  Talent usually is.  And cost vs. benefit is always a worthy discussion.

If the usual contingent need to flog this issue by painting a guy like that as some third tier scrub, best of luck to them.  

I prefer to hope Sam Darnold continues his development and becomes a guy who can throw for 4,300 Yards, 30 TD's vs. 10 INT's and a 70% completion ratio.....like Cousins did last year.  I look forward to seeing Sam put up those numbers, and I believe he has that potential.

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5 hours ago, bitonti said:

all these Jets fans feeling superior about the money the team didn't spend seem to forget these guys waxed the Jets 37-17 last year, in MetLife 

the Vikings won 8 games, the Jets won 4. Which would you rather live through?

and let's not breeze by that point 

it was a day, October 21, 2018 that many on this board attended in person, and most of us watched it live

by the end they were shouting SKOL in our empty stadium 

that's time we're never getting back and frankly a sh*t experience we all lived through

what's that worth? 

**

this endless future planning doesn't make sense when the cap goes up like every single year.

and the money Woody and Chris doesn't spend by the way? that gap between the labor spend and the cap? they call it profit. 

a meteor NASA isn't tracking tomorrow could show up and end the whole party 

but yeah let's make fun of the Vikings for trying to win, and in fact being a better team than the Jets 

 What Suckers They Are. 

Does this meteor have new uniforms bub? Huh?

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2 hours ago, Losmeister said:

Cousins...   the hwole thing makes me laugh, anybody anywhere who wanted to pay this guy is a footballing moron who erryone should ignore about all things football.

 

 

I am a footballing moron who erryone (Typo? Or should I read the whole thing in the voice of Nelly?) should ignore about all things football. 

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5 hours ago, bitonti said:

the Jets ran out of players to spend it on... All these pass rushers never even made it to market. The difference between the Jets and the Vikings isn't just their FA spending. 

the other side of the coin they overpaid for Sam Darnold by any reasonable interpretation of any trade chart 

3 second round picks and instant HOF guard Quenton Nelson is a bounty 

we can't honestly say Cousins/Nelson/3 second rounders is better than Darnold plus cap space that turned into Bell, Crowder/Mosley and more cap space. We hope it's true and it looks like a good long term bet but if you had to win a game tomorrow which is better? 

 

Yeah, the overpaid for Darnold.  Is there a more SOJF whine than that?  By any reasonable interpretation put out by those who would complain over anything and everything.   3 second round picks and the laughable idea that if we got a FQB I'm sweating missing out on a Guard.  I'm sure you'll find many who like you would give back those picks to have Nelson over Darnold.  

I can say I'd rather have Darnold because QB trumps a loser at QB and a guard every day of the week.  You have to be in it to win it.  We've had lots of really good guards since Namath but no FQB is what sinks this team.  Especially in todays game.  If I had to win one game who cares, thats not what this is about.  I hate that cheap way out.  Unless that one game is the SB its pointless.

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15 minutes ago, Jet Nut said:

Yeah, the overpaid for Darnold.  Is there a more SOJF whine than that?

Sure there is, the incessant need for insecure Jets Fans to try and paint players we failed to sign as "Bad" despite them being better than any QB the Jets have ever had, ever, in terms of actual on-field production.

That's SOJ if ever there was SOJ.

It's unnecessary to even have this thread.  We have Darnold.  They have Cousins.  Darnold today is a 2,900 Yard 1:1 TD/INT QB.  Cousins is a 4,300 Yard 3:1 TD/INT QB.  They won 8 games (and were hugely dissapointed).  We won 4 and seem to think today we're on the cusp of true Gaseness.

We didn't gain anything by not spending our cap.  Hell, we could have had both if we wanted, we had the cap space to afford it.  

But we didn't. Macc wanted Cousins and failed.  No worries, he was able to sell off most of a draft worth of high picks for Darnold, and luckily the Giants fubared the pick and let Darnold drop to us, and Darnold looks like he has the potential to be a 4,300 yard 3:1 TD/INT QB some day.  We should ALL be happy to have Darnold, he's our future.  We should ALL hope he becomes what Cousins is today, production wise.

None of that makes Cousins a bad QB, and it's sad so many fans are so insecure about it, they simply can't like Darnold and respect Cousins, they have to hate Cousins simply for our GM failing to sign him and thus saving money we didn't spend anywhere else anyway!

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1 hour ago, Warfish said:

Sure there is, the incessant need for insecure Jets Fans to try and paint players we failed to sign as "Bad" despite them being better than any QB the Jets have ever had, ever, in terms of actual on-field production.

That's SOJ if ever there was SOJ.

It's unnecessary to even have this thread.  We have Darnold.  They have Cousins.  Darnold today is a 2,900 Yard 1:1 TD/INT QB.  Cousins is a 4,300 Yard 3:1 TD/INT QB.  They won 8 games (and were hugely dissapointed).  We won 4 and seem to think today we're on the cusp of true Gaseness.

We didn't gain anything by not spending our cap.  Hell, we could have had both if we wanted, we had the cap space to afford it.  

But we didn't. Macc wanted Cousins and failed.  No worries, he was able to sell off most of a draft worth of high picks for Darnold, and luckily the Giants fubared the pick and let Darnold drop to us, and Darnold looks like he has the potential to be a 4,300 yard 3:1 TD/INT QB some day.  We should ALL be happy to have Darnold, he's our future.  We should ALL hope he becomes what Cousins is today, production wise.

None of that makes Cousins a bad QB, and it's sad so many fans are so insecure about it, they simply can't like Darnold and respect Cousins, they have to hate Cousins simply for our GM failing to sign him and thus saving money we didn't spend anywhere else anyway!

Agree with most of this.  My biggest thing with Darnold is that hopefully he is as productive as we like to hope he'll be but for me its that he becomes a winner.  Somehow Cousins just doesnt get it done and there are plenty who have had that same rep.  Stafford is as productive a QB as there ever has been but he doesnt win.  Cousins doesnt win.  Some just cant get over that hump and its hard to put a finger on why they dont. 

But most importantly I'd rather have Darnold and his potential over Cousins and his stats advantage today

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11 hours ago, IndianaJet said:

I'm not sure why this comment is getting Butt Fumbles.  I would venture to say 70% of the regular posters on this board wanted Cousins first and foremost and absolutely slaughtered Macc when he didn't sign here.

This is true. I was vehemently against Cousins and was regularly crucified. I believe many even said they didnt want to draft QBs anymore. But there are some Darnold haters so you never know about what goes on in peoples minds

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Some of you are deliberately ignoring the point.  Cousins had very good stats, but at the cost, he was going to handcuff any team that signed him and he isn't good enough to overcome that cap crunch.  Guys like Rodgers and Brees can do it.  Cousins is a good notch below them in talent and he can't.

You say you would rather we signed Cousins and kept the picks so we could be 8-7-1 last year?  Great...the problem for MIN is that they have one more year before the cap forces them to lose a lot of good players.  If they don't win it all this year, they are probably done until that contract runs down.  And they had a lot more talent going into last year than we could have possibly had.  They had a shot.  They blew it.  We would never had even had a shot before that contract crushed us.

I don't know if Sam will become better than Cousins.  He certainly shows the potential, which is something we haven't seen in a long time.  I didn't hate Cousins as a QB, but I hated him as a top-paid QB and I suspect so do a lot of Vikings fans now.  I hope they enjoyed that cold day at MetLife last year, because there may not be much more for them to enjoy over the next few years.  

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10 hours ago, Warfish said:

Sure there is, the incessant need for insecure Jets Fans to try and paint players we failed to sign as "Bad" despite them being better than any QB the Jets have ever had, ever, in terms of actual on-field production.

That's SOJ if ever there was SOJ.

It's unnecessary to even have this thread.  We have Darnold.  They have Cousins.  Darnold today is a 2,900 Yard 1:1 TD/INT QB.  Cousins is a 4,300 Yard 3:1 TD/INT QB.  They won 8 games (and were hugely dissapointed).  We won 4 and seem to think today we're on the cusp of true Gaseness.

We didn't gain anything by not spending our cap.  Hell, we could have had both if we wanted, we had the cap space to afford it.  

But we didn't. Macc wanted Cousins and failed.  No worries, he was able to sell off most of a draft worth of high picks for Darnold, and luckily the Giants fubared the pick and let Darnold drop to us, and Darnold looks like he has the potential to be a 4,300 yard 3:1 TD/INT QB some day.  We should ALL be happy to have Darnold, he's our future.  We should ALL hope he becomes what Cousins is today, production wise.

None of that makes Cousins a bad QB, and it's sad so many fans are so insecure about it, they simply can't like Darnold and respect Cousins, they have to hate Cousins simply for our GM failing to sign him and thus saving money we didn't spend anywhere else anyway!

4,000 yards passing equates to 250 yards a game over 16 games, and that's in this ticky tack era where receivers aren't allowed to have anyone breath on them or you see a flag.  I get it, the NFL is a Billion dollar business and fans like to see bombs and lots of scoring, it's exciting, because at the end of the day the NFL is an entertainment industry and this type of action draws fans and their dollars. 

Major League Baseball is the same way.  They have again juiced the baseballs to such an extreme it's almost like they're hitting a spaldeen.  Little Shortstops are hitting opposite field 400 foot HRs.

So I'm not impressed by "4,000 yards" anymore, because many QB's hit that plateau, tough to do when you have Todd Bowles running on 1st and 2nd down into the middle of an OLine that can't run block in the first place but that's a story for another day.

I virtually guarantee you Darnold throws for 4,000 yards this year in Gase's Offense, or close to it.  In fact if you run Darnold's passing yard stats to a 16 game season (your 2,900 is for the 12 games he played while missing 4), I calculate close to 3,900 yards passing for Darnold's Rookie season, and this was playing for a HC who played EVERY game "not to lose" ie scared.

The first QB to ever throw for over 4,000 yards was Joe Namath and that was over just 14 games and with his receivers getting clocked in the head by forearms their entire time trying to run down the field.  Now that was a very impressive performance by Namath.

Cousins can accumulate all the stats he wants.  He is a decent QB mechanics wise, throws a nice ball, but one thing about him sorely sticks out....WHEN HE "STEPS UP IN CLASS" THE GUY IS LITERALLY GARBAGE....4-26 AGAINST TEAMS WITH WINNING RECORDS AND SADLY THAT TREND HAS CONTINUED...big mistake by Minnesota, they will win nothing with this guy.  But he'll most likely put up those same stats up again....does it matter?  Minnesota won't win with this guy.

I'll take Darnold any day over Cousins, kid is a born Winner, and it'll show.  Thank God Cousins was just playing Maccagnan and didn't sign with the Jets.

 

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On 5/21/2019 at 8:46 PM, BCJet said:

Keep in mind, this was Mac's preferred choice over trading up for Sam

and to the many posters that say ..."Well MAC got us Darnold, had the balls to trade up".  I say BS. Mac did everything he could to screw this up.  He then HAD to trade 3 number 2 picks to fix his dumpster fire.

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2 hours ago, JoeWillieWhiteShoesHOF said:

So I'm not impressed by "4,000 yards" anymore, because many QB's hit that plateau...

Just not us.  Pretty much ever.  Or at least not in my lifetime.

Again, 4,300 Yards, 30 TD's, 10 INT's and a 70% Completion ratio is good enough for me.  We can all only hope Darnold can equally "not impress" you soon.

2 hours ago, JoeWillieWhiteShoesHOF said:

I virtually guarantee you Darnold throws for 4,000 yards this year in Gase's Offense........I'll take Darnold any day over Cousins, kid is a born Winner, and it'll show.

I'm happy with Darnold too.  I too hope he can produce Cousins-like numbers soon.  If he can, we're going to win alot more games.  If he can produce on par with what Cousins did last year, Darnold will be the greatest single-season QB in Jets history.  I'm sure we both hope he can.

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14 hours ago, Warfish said:

None of that makes Cousins a bad QB, and it's sad so many fans are so insecure about it, they simply can't like Darnold and respect Cousins, they have to hate Cousins simply for our GM failing to sign him and thus saving money we didn't spend anywhere else anyway!

Revisionist history. 

Many fans here, myself included, were adamantly against signing Cousins in real time. Recognizing that while he puts up nice looking numbers, he's simply not a winner. He takes too many sacks and fumbles a lot. He's not the QB that's gonna get you over the hump and Minnesota is learning that the hard way. Somewhere in his head, Cousins probably realizes this, too, taking less money from the Vikings with idea of winning games with a good roster and cashing in again three years later. Something he knew he couldn't accomplish with the Jets. The idea of giving him $90M guaranteed was a very bad one, and Maccagnan's ass horseshoe served him well there. 

I don't know if Darnold is the answer yet, but I like the idea of finding out while he's signed for four years for about the same amount the Jets were willing to give Cousins for one. 

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3 hours ago, slats said:

 

I don't know if Darnold is the answer yet, but I like the idea of finding out while he's signed for four years for about the same amount the Jets were willing to give Cousins for one. 

 

the way fans think about open cap space, you'd think we were getting a cut of the unspent money at the end of the year

open cap space is unused potential. If a Demarcus Lawrence never makes it to FA there's no point in having oodles of cap space

other than to save on labor and pocket the difference

 

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3 hours ago, slats said:

Revisionist history. 

I'm talking about now in that observation re: insecurity, not the past. 

No one here, today, should care one iota about Kirk Cousins or the Vikings, we have Darnold now, we're invested, and he is our guy and we have every reason to have hope.......yet here we are.  Maybe I should go start a Geno Smith thread too?

As for the rest, I said it before, will say it again, I'm not re-litigating this debate, it has no point now.  I'm certainly am not doing it with you slats, IMO you simply do not debate in good faith, especially after our last exchange.   I won't waste my time again.

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5 hours ago, Warfish said:

I'm certainly am not doing it with you slats, IMO you simply do not debate in good faith, especially after our last exchange.   I won't waste my time again.

Lol, oh, you mean that time you were telling me what my opinion was about Peyton Manning? 

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9 hours ago, Warfish said:

Just not us.  Pretty much ever.  Or at least not in my lifetime.

Again, 4,300 Yards, 30 TD's, 10 INT's and a 70% Completion ratio is good enough for me.  We can all only hope Darnold can equally "not impress" you soon.

I'm happy with Darnold too.  I too hope he can produce Cousins-like numbers soon.  If he can, we're going to win alot more games.  If he can produce on par with what Cousins did last year, Darnold will be the greatest single-season QB in Jets history.  I'm sure we both hope he can.

I agree with you on those stats..4,300 yards etc...they look gaudy, and you’re right, I’d love any Jet QB to post them, the thing is is that when it comes to Kirk Cousins they’re Fools Gold.

I’ll tell you, I learned that stat of Cousins, 4-26 against teams with Winning Records, long after he had signed for the King’s Ransom Minnesota forked over (which as you know was even LESS than Maccagnan offered), and to me his now definite profile of NOT being able to WIN against teams when it matters most NEGATES the pretty stat line he normally puts up.  Basically like a racehorse who has no trouble dominating nags but you ask him to step up in class.....forget it.

I laughed when I learned about that “4-26”.

It is more than enough of a sample size to tell the story of Kirk Cousins.  It also tells you the Jets luckily dodged a major bullet NO THANKS TO MACCAGNAN.  These are things GM’s are supposed to know.  It’s called due diligence.  But all Maccagnan wanted to do was hurriedly bring a QB in to save his job.

Any thoughtful GM who knew about “4-26”, and even if they needed a QB, would have smiled and said “Pass” (on signing Cousins, especially with the huge dollar demands).

2019 Prediction...Sam Darnold leads Jets to a Wildcard Playoff berth, the first of many playoff appearances.

Minnesota Vikings miss the playoffs....Again.

Feel free to bash me if I’m wrong.

 

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It's worth noting that Cousins had a very good year stats-wise last season.

4,300 yards, 30 TDs, 10 INTs, 70% completions.  That's really good and more than good enough for playoffs.

They scored more than their opponents, had better 3rd down conversion % and better red zone %.  Their defense wasn't awful.  It's actually hard to fathom how their record was so bleh.  

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