My Thoughts on Leonard WIlliams

[BurnleyJet]

16 minutes ago, Peace Frog said:

Why do folks continue to ask this question NOW?

With no context. 

We don’t have to pay him now. 

And we can’t answer that question until next February. 

If he puts up 15 sacks, is one of the leaders and driving forces on a top 5 defense that goes to the playoffs, kills Brady in the meantime, and the cap goes up $30 million? 

Or of he has 1.5 sacks, the defense is abysmal and he plays lackluster. 

THAT’s when you make the decision. 

Not now. 

It’s a simple question, looking at what we paid Mo Wilkerson, and from the last four years of play, do we think he’s worth 18 mill or thereabouts?

If he does thrive in Greg Williams scheme is it Greg’s scheme or is it Leo? - I’ve seen nothing in the last four years to justify paying more than 9 mill per.

Just like I see people knock him, I see some here defending him, and he’s an above average solid pro.

By the way I will take the “Kills Brady” part.

 

 

[Rsherman28]

41 minutes ago, Peace Frog said:

Why do folks continue to ask this question NOW?

With no context. 

We don’t have to pay him now. 

And we can’t answer that question until next February. 

If he puts up 15 sacks, is one of the leaders and driving forces on a top 5 defense that goes to the playoffs, kills Brady in the meantime, and the cap goes up $30 million? 

Or of he has 1.5 sacks, the defense is abysmal and he plays lackluster. 

THAT’s when you make the decision. 

Not now. 

lol amen 

[Peace Frog]

15 minutes ago, BurnleyJet said:

It’s a simple question, looking at what we paid Mo Wilkerson, and from the last four years of play, do we think he’s worth 18 mill or thereabouts?

If he does thrive in Greg Williams scheme is it Greg’s scheme or is it Leo? - I’ve seen nothing in the last four years to justify paying more than 9 mill per.

Just like I see people knock him, I see some here defending him, and he’s an above average solid pro.

By the way I will take the “Kills Brady” part.

 

 

I’m not saying pay him. 

I'm just suggesting we don’t have to decide now. 

It’s like folks complaining about what we MIGHT have to pay Adams in TWO years. 

I don’t get the need to decide now without seeing what unfolds. 

[Rsherman28]

15 minutes ago, BurnleyJet said:

It’s a simple question, looking at what we paid Mo Wilkerson, and from the last four years of play, do we think he’s worth 18 mill or thereabouts?

If he does thrive in Greg Williams scheme is it Greg’s scheme or is it Leo? - I’ve seen nothing in the last four years to justify paying more than 9 mill per.

Just like I see people knock him, I see some here defending him, and he’s an above average solid pro.

By the way I will take the “Kills Brady” part.

 

 

The simplicity of the question isn't simple if you ask it now. It's kind of not a simple question if your valuing him now with one year left to prove his worth.

I think when you mention how good Greg Williams can make him, you have to take in account how bad the previous coaches preformed. 

I am not going to argue in 2017 and 18 his sack totals and solo tackles have taken a dip. But the game plan in 2017 was to tear down this roster for a draft pick at one of the top 3 QB's coming out. The GM literally spent no money, and intentionally fielded a really bad team. I think that can have an effect on a player in that position. 

You look at his 2016 pro bowl season, where there was talent around him, he played well. 

The video stated we have the 11th, 13th, and 15th contract? That is a poor evaluation for not wanting to pay a player you drafted if he preforms well this year. 

If the defensive line is top 10 against the run this year and the pass rush is there, I wouldn't mind having our defensive line contracts at  3 4 or 5, 11th, and 13th considering we should be somewhat relevant again. 

 

[bealeb319]

It’s a simple question, looking at what we paid Mo Wilkerson, and from the last four years of play, do we think he’s worth 18 mill or thereabouts?
If he does thrive in Greg Williams scheme is it Greg’s scheme or is it Leo? - I’ve seen nothing in the last four years to justify paying more than 9 mill per.
Just like I see people knock him, I see some here defending him, and he’s an above average solid pro.
By the way I will take the “Kills Brady” part.
 
 

What have you seen that says he will be looking for 18m? People jump to too many conclusions with no evidence. Yes Leonard will try to get as much money as he can and as he should but no one knows what the price tag he will put on himself will be. If no one will pay him what he wants he will have to settle and if he has to settle and the price is reasonable than why move on from him? There are way too many what ifs in the equation right now anyway. What if he gets hurt, what if he has a down year, what if he becomes the defensive mvp this season all types of things that could effect his price tag which he may or may not be worth

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[BurnleyJet]

1 hour ago, bealeb319 said:

What have you seen that says he will be looking for 18m? People jump to too many conclusions with no evidence. Yes Leonard will try to get as much money as he can and as he should but no one knows what the price tag he will put on himself will be. If no one will pay him what he wants he will have to settle and if he has to settle and the price is reasonable than why move on from him? There are way too many what ifs in the equation right now anyway. What if he gets hurt, what if he has a down year, what if he becomes the defensive mvp this season all types of things that could effect his price tag which he may or may not be worth

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Guys on 14 mill for his 5th year option.

You think he will wants less than that? - My figures is based on what we paid our previous “Star” 3-4 DE Mo Wilkerson.

It’s not like he’s Joe Klecko.

[varjet]

2 hours ago, BurnleyJet said:

Guys on 14 mill for his 5th year option.

You think he will wants less than that? - My figures is based on what we paid our previous “Star” 3-4 DE Mo Wilkerson.

It’s not like he’s Joe Klecko.

If I am a GM trying to build a team, drafting in the first round (even high in the first round) a "Planet Guy" (one of only a few big, fast guys on the planet) to play DL, and have them locked up on a rookie contract for at least 4 years, is not a bad thing if he is a good player who can make a different, particularly if those players cost at least 2x that in the open market.  The hope would be that a player like that can be a piece of a playoff team.

Wilkerson, Richardson and Williams have all provided very good to great play for the Jets, although it not appear to be that impactful.   But if you need one of those players and you can draft a good one, its not a bad move.   They are young and motivated.  But it would better to use the pick for an offensive player that you would consider using a Tag on if you had to, to lock them up.  You could at least threaten it.  

Signing one to a long-term contract seldom works out.  

To me, the Browns have played it right.  They have drafted well, have traded for impact players, and now feel like they can make a run.  They have signed Richardson to a 2 year contract, 1.5 years guaranteed.   Last year in a similar spot the Vikings gave him a year.  

Leo's money should be spent on the OL.  It could be carried forward next year.   When the Jets have a team that works, they can rent a DL for a year or two to fill out the team.  

 

[JustInFudge]

Leo, like Adams, is a very good to great player who was unfortunately drafted highly into a non-premium position.  He's the type of player every team loves to have he just never lived up #6 overall.  He's not worth a hefty new contract but he is definitely worth it at a reasonable cost. 

[Jetsfan80]

On 5/26/2019 at 7:17 PM, bealeb319 said:

Idk if you people are trolling, crazy, stupid or bias. Williams is a decent player. He has been above average on the field has been a good leader and locker room guy and has stayed out of trouble off the field. The guy is not elite and was not a great pick at 6 in hindsight but he is a good player. We should at least see what we can get out of him this year and see what he will demand in a contract because if he doesnt want top dollar and would settle for pay that matches his production then he is worth signing. You people who want to trade him away for a third rounder realize that we would just be spending another first round pick to replace him right?

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Oh come on.  Are you really saying we'd need to invest yet another 1st rounder on the D-Line?

Quinnen Williams, Henry Anderson, Nathan Shepherd (lol) and a couple rotational pieces will be more than enough going forward on the DL, and will allow Quinnen to shift to the 3-4 DE spot full-time, where he belongs.  As it stands, we're currently looking at playing QW further on the interior than he should be because we have too many DT's. 

If someone offers a 3rd rounder for Leo now, you take it.  You're not re-signing him, and we're likely not going to be in position to get a compensatory pick back for him (we'll likely be spenders again in free agency). 

I just don't think anyone is offering that.  At this stage in the offseason he'd probably net a 4th or 5th.  So we have no choice but to play him, hope he has a breakout season, and perhaps we can move him at the trade deadline.  Otherwise he walks and we get nothing. 

[bealeb319]

Oh come on.  Are you really saying we'd need to invest yet another 1st rounder on the D-Line?
Quinnen Williams, Henry Anderson, Nathan Shepherd (lol) and a couple rotational pieces will be more than enough going forward on the DL, and will allow Quinnen to shift to the 3-4 DE spot full-time, where he belongs.  As it stands, we're currently looking at playing QW further on the interior than he should be because we have too many DT's. 
If someone offers a 3rd rounder for Leo now, you take it.  You're not re-signing him, and we're likely not going to be in position to get a compensatory pick back for him (we'll likely be spenders again in free agency). 

Are you saying with our track record in the passed 10 years that it is unlikely for us to draft another d lineman in the first round?

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[Jetsfan80]

3 minutes ago, bealeb319 said:

Are you saying with our track record in the passed 10 years that it is unlikely for us to draft another d lineman in the first round?

Highly unlikely.  Mike Maccagnan is gone, and whoever we hire at GM is going to be more offense-minded than any of the GM's we had over the last two decades. 

This cycle of drafting a DT to replace our other DT's is over.  It would make absolutely zero sense on a roster that has huge needs at WR, OL, EDGE and CB and has plenty of DT's.

[bealeb319]

Highly unlikely.  Mike Maccagnan is gone, and whoever we hire at GM is going to be more offense-minded than any of the GM's we had over the last two decades. 
This cycle of drafting a DT to replace our other DT's is over.  It would make absolutely zero sense on a roster that has huge needs at WR, OL, EDGE and CB and has plenty of DT's.

It made little sense from any pov other than bpa to take Leo when we had wilk and richardson

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[Jetsfan80]

11 minutes ago, bealeb319 said:

It made little sense from any pov other than bpa to take Leo when we had wilk and richardson

Which is why the next GM we hire is going to be someone who doesn't do that.  He may draft a bust WR or an OT we need to kick inside to Guard, but he isn't going to double down on a non-premium position that isn't a need. 

[MichaelScott]

If there is a lockout next season, does that happen before or after pending FA's become "free"?

[Smashmouth]

A 3-4 DE and a 4-3 DE are light years apart. In the 3-4 you should never ever pay the kind of money Leo might get offered in FA. Also if a 4-3 team picks up Leo he will be playing DT not DE and he might fair much better in the sack department playing in that scheme.

In the 3-4 you pay the NT and LB's not the DE's all the superior 3-4 defenses throughout the history of this league used that formula Giants 86 Bears 85 Ravens 2000 

Now with all that being said Leo might very well be the kind of player that benefits from having a dominant player like Quinnen Williams next to him and also Henry Anderson. He has been Doubled more often than not and still makes some plays and should be considered a good player. 

All of this hinges on what Greg Williams actually runs ... He said he will be running a 3-4 but we have no idea if he just threw that out there due to FA and the draft or if he really wants to run that type of defense. If he runs a predominant 4-3 Williams will be kept if he runs more of a 3-4 He will be gone IMO.

Also when it comes to tagging players putting Leo in a pool with Von Miller and other DE's that are purely pass rushers and command a high salary is ridiculous. 

[Smashmouth]

1 hour ago, Jetsfan80 said:

Oh come on.  Are you really saying we'd need to invest yet another 1st rounder on the D-Line?

Quinnen Williams, Henry Anderson, Nathan Shepherd (lol) and a couple rotational pieces will be more than enough going forward on the DL, and will allow Quinnen to shift to the 3-4 DE spot full-time, where he belongs.  As it stands, we're currently looking at playing QW further on the interior than he should be because we have too many DT's. 

If someone offers a 3rd rounder for Leo now, you take it.  You're not re-signing him, and we're likely not going to be in position to get a compensatory pick back for him (we'll likely be spenders again in free agency). 

I just don't think anyone is offering that.  At this stage in the offseason he'd probably net a 4th or 5th.  So we have no choice but to play him, hope he has a breakout season, and perhaps we can move him at the trade deadline.  Otherwise he walks and we get nothing. 

Q is 21 years old and is 305 pounds if this kid is as dominant as his video shows him to be the Jets should be grooming him as the NT and let him grow into the position because this kid is going to be a monster at that position rather than an irrelevant DE in a 3-4 defense. Even in a 4-3 scheme Q is playing DT since your DE's in the 4-3 need to be quick and in the 260-270 range. Depending on what Defense we actually run Leo will only stay here in a 4-3 scheme as a DT we would be nuts to pay him to stay in a 3-4 as a DE. Use the money to add LB's just like we did this year and if we could have landed Barr along with Mosely we would have an incredible LB Corps probably the best in the NFL and that's what wins in a 3-4 defense

[Eaton Beaver]

On 5/26/2019 at 7:28 PM, Rsherman28 said:

Nothing he can do?

If he makes a pro bowl and gets to double digits in sacks.

2 pro bowls in 5 years, while being coached under Todd Bowles and Kacey Rodgers....

Also, don't forget that the year before drafting Darnold, we completely tore down the roster and literally attempted to be bad so we can get a good draft pick for one of the top 3 quarterbacks. 

Trough all that sh*t, you would have a player who stayed healthy and good off the field, he also loves NY and the Jets. 

I am not sure what more a player would have to do, if he has a monster year, who ever this next GM is better to do ever it takes to lock this guy up 

Yeah, he loves the Jets and NY so much he stated last year that if Bowles were fired he might as well leave! A lot of people here tend to overrate Jet players, there is no way LW is worth 14.2 million dollars. You just drafted QW with the 3rd pick, try to get a 2nd or 3rd for Williams and just get it over with. He would have to do a lot more than these stats say for all that money.

Leonard Williams   #92 DE

New York Jets | Official Team Site

Height: 6-5   Weight: 302   Age: 24

Born: 6/20/1994 Bakersfield , CA

College: USC

Experience: 5th season

High School: Mainland HS [Daytona Beach, FL]

 

Defensive
			Tackles					Interceptions
Year	Team	G	Comb	Total	Ast	Sck	SFTY	PDef	Int	TDs	Yds	Avg	Lng
2018	New York Jets	16	42	27	15	5.0	--	2	--	--	--	0.0	--
2017	New York Jets	16	47	22	25	2.0	--	1	1	0	6	6.0	6
2016	New York Jets	16	68	36	32	7.0	--	0	--	--	--	0.0	--
2015	New York Jets	16	63	29	34	3.0	--	0	--	--	--	0.0	--
TOTAL		64	220	114	106	17.0	0	3	1	0	6	--	6

[Jetsfan80]

Q is 21 years old and is 305 pounds if this kid is as dominant as his video shows him to be the Jets should be grooming him as the NT and let him grow into the position because this kid is going to be a monster at that position rather than an irrelevant DE in a 3-4 defense. Even in a 4-3 scheme Q is playing DT since your DE's in the 4-3 need to be quick and in the 260-270 range. Depending on what Defense we actually run Leo will only stay here in a 4-3 scheme as a DT we would be nuts to pay him to stay in a 3-4 as a DE. Use the money to add LB's just like we did this year and if we could have landed Barr along with Mosely we would have an incredible LB Corps probably the best in the NFL and that's what wins in a 3-4 defense

So we burned a # 3 overall pick on a NT. Awesome.

[win4ever]

It all depends on this season of course, but I will argue for Leo.  

I don't think he was coached right, nor was he put in a favorable situation with schemes.  

The first one, I just don't think Bowles knew how to get players to develop talent.  While he's widely panned, I'll use the Hackenberg example.  His rookie year, he did absolutely nothing.  Bowles, essentially had him hold a play sheet and headsets.  Not working on mechanics or fixing his flaws.  He admitted they didn't do anything, and I believe Gailey admitted that it was basically a redshirt year for him.  That's the type of coach, I think Bowles is,  A player's coach type, similar to a gym teacher in middle school who let the kids pick their own workouts.  In the moment, that's cool to the kids because they can do whatever they want, but don't develop anything.  I think Bowles let the players have the forum in terms of how to run the team, and it let to a lot of stagnation.   

Examples:

Wilkerson was widely praised for high motor, work ethic under Ryan.  Pretty much fell off the map with Bowles, albeit getting paid helped.  

Where have you heard of a locker room where a low round pick will punch the starting QB over $600? This just showed a lack of respect in the clubhouse within teammates. 

Sheldon Richardson was a rising star, and then Bowles came along and he's a mercenary.  

We didn't see anyone in the secondary really improve, even though that was Bowles area of expertise.   Trumaine Johnson flopped.  Skrine flopped.  None of the draft picks ever stepped up.  Rashad Robinson didn't improve.  Even on offense, aside from Anderson, who exactly have we developed.  Hackenberg looked awful to begin with, and not a hint of improvement.  Same with Geno/Petty.  OL? 

It's a mixture of bad talent, but coaching has to step in at some point and say, ok, so and so actually developed under us.  

Second, the lack of pass rush causes a domino effect on the line.  If you don't have a good pass rusher, then you create a pass rush with blitzes.  Blitzes leave parts of the field open for easy passes, therefore the QB can pick you apart before the blitz gets home.  Without those threats, either offenses had time to help against Leo with a chip block or double teams, or the ball got out quick, which renders most pass rushes useless.  

This is the first year, where I think the Jets can put a pass rush on the field that can actually threaten a QB without exotic blitzes.  It'll help Leo, Quinen, Polite, Anderson and others.  I think he will have a substantially better year than last year, based on the off-season improvements.  

[Smashmouth]

6 hours ago, Jetsfan80 said:

 

So we burned a # 3 overall pick on a NT. Awesome.

 

NT is one of the most important positions on the line in a 3-4 defense so if this kid becomes the dominant force everyone seems to think he is I'm not sure that's "burning a pick" . I would be more concerned on the picks burned on Richardson, Williams, Coples than the one on Q .

Also, if we do go to a 4-3 the Williams Brothers will be a dominant force in the middle along with moving Polite from OLB to DE and having a rotation at the DE position with Polite, Copeland, Luvu and Jenkins keeping them fresh and using the best 2 of the 4 on passing downs. If you can get a good rotation going in the 4-3 and keep those guys fresh that's going to be bad for QB's 

[Rsherman28]

14 hours ago, Eaton Beaver said:

Yeah, he loves the Jets and NY so much he stated last year that if Bowles were fired he might as well leave! A lot of people here tend to overrate Jet players, there is no way LW is worth 14.2 million dollars. You just drafted QW with the 3rd pick, try to get a 2nd or 3rd for Williams and just get it over with. He would have to do a lot more than these stats say for all that money.

Leonard Williams   #92 DE

New York Jets | Official Team Site

Height: 6-5   Weight: 302   Age: 24

Born: 6/20/1994 Bakersfield , CA

College: USC

Experience: 5th season

High School: Mainland HS [Daytona Beach, FL]

 

Defensive
			Tackles					Interceptions
Year	Team	G	Comb	Total	Ast	Sck	SFTY	PDef	Int	TDs	Yds	Avg	Lng
2018	New York Jets	16	42	27	15	5.0	--	2	--	--	--	0.0	--
2017	New York Jets	16	47	22	25	2.0	--	1	1	0	6	6.0	6
2016	New York Jets	16	68	36	32	7.0	--	0	--	--	--	0.0	--
2015	New York Jets	16	63	29	34	3.0	--	0	--	--	--	0.0	--
TOTAL		64	220	114	106	17.0	0	3	1	0	6	--	6

I really think the Bowles comment is so taken out of context. 

First, if it was unprompted and he just came out I would completely get it.  You act like right after practice he opened up his media questions with "First of guys, I would quit if Bowles was not here".

That is not how it happened at all. The media probably asked this dude over 100 times what he thinks of Bowles at times when they knew he would react that way (after a loss, right after a game or bad week). 

Secondly, the guy is at every voluntary work out and event the team has. That is not the behavior of someone who is salty about coaching change and looking to leave in FA. He goes to NYJETS.com interviews, jersey reveals, voluntary practice. His loyalty is not in question at all in my opinion. 

You say his worth is not 14 million a year. But you want a team to right before camp trade a 2nd, and 3rd and pay him the 14 million to be done with it. That is a steep asking price for a player not worth 14 million. 

I think  poor usage by coaching and his 17.4% double team is not looked at enough. I have a highlight video of all of Henry Anderson's sacks from 2018 which I had to make due to nothing being on you tube. 4 out of the 7 sacks Anderson gets, the Oline is doubling Williams and freeing up man coverage across the line. Copeland 5 sacks, Jenkins 7 sacks, I bet the attention of Williams has a similar effect on there numbers as well. 

Finally, I am arguing its hard to say his worth of 14 million THIS year before he actually plays this year.