Patriot Killa Posted May 29, 2019 Share Posted May 29, 2019 I never thought Watson was that good. Never blinked an eye at Pat and Mitch? Hell no. We know how you feel about Watson @JiF that’s why your going to these lengths lol. its cool but I did advocate for the 2018 class and I said what I said.??♂️ I wasn’t lying. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jetsfan80 Posted May 29, 2019 Share Posted May 29, 2019 4 minutes ago, Patriot Killa said: I never thought Watson was that good. Never blinked an eye at Pat and Mitch? Hell no. We know how you feel about Watson @JiF that’s why your going to these lengths lol. its cool but I did advocate for the 2018 class and I said what I said.??♂️ I wasn’t lying. You weren't lying, except about the Mayfield thing. But your logic then was poor, and its still poor in the aftermath. You like Jamal Adams a lot, I get that. But you still can't make the argument that Adams + 2018 class >>> 2017 class + 2018 1st + three 2nd rounders. Not even close. Yes, it's over, and I'm beating a dead horse. We have Darnold and Adams. But its the slowest point of the offseason and this is the time to have these debates. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rammagen Posted May 29, 2019 Share Posted May 29, 2019 42 minutes ago, Wonderboy said: You're right. He's not a typical box safety. Because even a box safety can cover. Harrison, Shell, Lake, Woodson, Lynch, Butler , etc etc etc all have way better production, in their first 2 years. Adams has 1 INT in 2 years!!!! LOL That's pathetic. At this rate, in 10 years, he'll have 5 INT's LOL. And they're throwing the ball now more than ever so don't give me this complete safety nonsense. Even Leo has 1 INT. one thing I disagree with here about the interception. I would be curious to see how many chances he had versus the other safeties. I think Bowles had allot to do with lack of player development, by implementing improper schemes or schemes that limited the player. I want to see him and Leo play under a DC that will get the best from them in all aspects of play. I also get the argument taking while lacking a qb is stupid but there is no guarantee either Watson or Mahomes would have been great here though and that is the benefit of hindsight Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Patriot Killa Posted May 29, 2019 Share Posted May 29, 2019 Just now, Jetsfan80 said: You weren't lying, except about the Mayfield thing. But your logic then was poor, and its still poor in the aftermath. You like Jamal Adams a lot, I get that. But you still can't make the argument that Adams + 2018 class >>> 2017 class + 2018 1st + three 2nd rounders. Not even close. I wasn’t lying about the Mayfield thing either. I watched USC, UCLA and Oklahoma as much I as I possibly could after 2017’s season. They all solidified themselves as better QB’s in my eyes and that also solidified my initial feeling on the class of 2018 as it compares to 2017. Like I said the 2nd round picks are nice but you do realize we could of had Sam and those 2nd rounders if Josh McCown wouldn’t of looked decent right? It’s Maccs fault more than anything. We wouldn’t even be talking about the 2nd round picks if we would of played Hack or Petty to “find out” what we had in them. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jetsfan80 Posted May 29, 2019 Share Posted May 29, 2019 8 minutes ago, Patriot Killa said: Like I said the 2nd round picks are nice but you do realize we could of had Sam and those 2nd rounders if Josh McCown wouldn’t of looked decent right? It’s Maccs fault more than anything. We wouldn’t even be talking about the 2nd round picks if we would of played Hack or Petty to “find out” what we had in them. On this we agree. We should have 100 % gone "sink or swim" with Petty and Hackenberg that season. D*cking around with a band-aid veteran at QB coming off the Fitzpatrick seasons, and after having spent a 4th and 2nd rounder on QB's, was mindless. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JustInFudge Posted May 29, 2019 Share Posted May 29, 2019 2 minutes ago, Patriot Killa said: Thanks for finding it because I sure couldn’t. This was at the beginning of 2017 draft process. Baker’s play the next year further pushed me towards my initial feelings on the 2018 class. I felt they were overall better QB’s and had a better chance of succeeding on our team. The 17 draft class was selected before Mayfield's senior year. Essentially, what you've tried to sell us today is that you didnt want Mahomes and Watson in Jan 2017 because you knew true freshman Sam Darnold and often injured Josh Rosen were further along and better poised to overcome the pitfalls of our coaching staff. The reality is, you wanted to see what we had in Hack and Petty (who for some reason you thought could overcome the coaching staff) before drafting a QB. Even so much so, that you'd sign a Glennon or lesser type of QB to bridge the gap during the process. No mention of next years class being stronger, just as solid. You made no mention of either being better or able to overcome the coaching staff. You still believed Hack and Petty could. Look, I'm just being a dick and bust your balls here but you didnt position this opinion as next year is better. Here is exactly your position: I think Watson is the best guy in the draft and I still don't like him at 6. Spread guys 98% of the time DONT work. It's convenient timing for once. We have a whole season to test our young guys and if no one shows up, we have a solid QB class to look forward to...I just think Mahomes at #6 is RIDICULOUS. Just my two cent though. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Villain The Foe Posted May 29, 2019 Author Share Posted May 29, 2019 1 hour ago, Jetsfan80 said: Until he starts picking off some passes, he'll just be a very good linebacker who can cover. For as long as he's Intercepting more passess than touchdowns he's allowing, then he'll remain one of the best in the league. 1 hour ago, Wonderboy said: You're right. He's not a typical box safety. Because even a box safety can cover. Harrison, Shell, Lake, Woodson, Lynch, Butler , etc etc etc all have way better production, in their first 2 years. Adams has 1 INT in 2 years!!!! LOL That's pathetic. At this rate, in 10 years, he'll have 5 INT's LOL. And they're throwing the ball now more than ever so don't give me this complete safety nonsense. Even Leo has 1 INT. Can you pull their stats and put that to the test? You and others with this mindset seem to base your entire position on one stat which are INT's. But here's a stat you and the others purposely overlook. It's clear that Adams played his fair share in coverage and recorded just 1 INT and 12 Pass Defended which is 3rd among all Safeties (Free or Strong), but do you know how many Touchdowns Adams allowed last year? Let me help you. He has more interceptions than touchdowns allowed. Funny how none of you are talking about THAT stat. You guys are really exposing yourselves. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JustInFudge Posted May 29, 2019 Share Posted May 29, 2019 15 minutes ago, Patriot Killa said: I never thought Watson was that good. Never blinked an eye at Pat and Mitch? Hell no. We know how you feel about Watson @JiF that’s why your going to these lengths lol. its cool but I did advocate for the 2018 class and I said what I said.??♂️ I wasn’t lying. Meh, I'm not calling you a liar. I just think your positioning yourself and how you came to the 18>17 conclusion differently than it actually happened. Which is the case now that I've found a post of yours stating your true feelings on why you wanted to pass on a QB ie; holding out for hope that Hack or Petty could overcome the Bowles factor. I did search a lot of those threads and you were noticeably absent in most of the debates around this time. Whereas you had me banging the table for Watson and Lupz banging the table for Mahomes. I searched these threads because I thought remembered being on the fence with Mahomes because I had a hard time getting over the Big 12 factor (similar with Mayfield) even though his talent was undeniable. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Patriot Killa Posted May 29, 2019 Share Posted May 29, 2019 2 minutes ago, JiF said: The 17 draft class was selected before Mayfield's senior year. Essentially, what you've tried to sell us today is that you didnt want Mahomes and Watson in Jan 2017 because you knew true freshman Sam Darnold and often injured Josh Rosen were further along and better poised to overcome the pitfalls of our coaching staff. The reality is, you wanted to see what we had in Hack and Petty (who for some reason you thought could overcome the coaching staff) before drafting a QB. Even so much so, that you'd sign a Glennon or lesser type of QB to bridge the gap during the process. No mention of next years class being stronger, just as solid. You made no mention of either being better or able to overcome the coaching staff. You still believed Hack and Petty could. Look, I'm just being a dick and bust your balls here but you didnt position this opinion as next year is better. Here is exactly your position: I think Watson is the best guy in the draft and I still don't like him at 6. Spread guys 98% of the time DONT work. It's convenient timing for once. We have a whole season to test our young guys and if no one shows up, we have a solid QB class to look forward to...I just think Mahomes at #6 is RIDICULOUS. Just my two cent though. What I am trying to sell you today is that Josh Rosen and Darnold seemed like more promising prospects to me. You seen what I said in the comment below.. I was skeptical on Watson for the spread system and definitely wanted no part of Mahomes. Should I have said “polished”? no. You got me on that. But let’s not act like what I’m saying makes no sense, it does. People were drooling over the next class and for a good enough reason. Sam and Josh both played in pro systems in their first years. I didn’t care about experience or anything like that — that didn’t drive my opinion in the direction it went in. It was the fact that I thought they were simply better prospects who could grow into better QB’s despite a bad coaching staff or inept offensive personnel. Shouldn’t have said polished but other than that, it just feels like you guys are taking what I’m saying and trying to spin every word into this literal sense to drive home a point. Stop, c’mon now. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scoop24 Posted May 29, 2019 Share Posted May 29, 2019 Funny thing is I remember a lot of people on here wanting Mike Williams including some of real knowledgeable draft posters . Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Patriot Killa Posted May 29, 2019 Share Posted May 29, 2019 5 minutes ago, JiF said: holding out for hope that Hack or Petty could overcome the Bowles factor. At the time I thought they deserved a shot to at least getting on the field with Fitzpatrick throwing picks the year before and having no other Vet to take over. I figured they’d at least position us for a good pick in a QB class that I liked/ or they would show progression themselves. My whole reason for wanting to wait wasnt solely rooted in holding out for anyone. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
varjet Posted May 29, 2019 Share Posted May 29, 2019 To me, a successful first round pick is a player who plays well, makes All Pro/Pro Bowl, etc. There have been plenty of top 10 picks who are not that good. Adams is good. A great first round pick is someone who is deemed worthy of an extended contract. To get there, a team has to be at least willing to use the Franchise Tag. Let's see where the Jets get to with Adams. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lith Posted May 29, 2019 Share Posted May 29, 2019 6 minutes ago, Scoop24 said: Funny thing is I remember a lot of people on here wanting Mike Williams including some of real knowledgeable draft posters . I was one of them. Well, maybe not the knowledgeable part; but I really wanted Mike Williams. Was desperate to add some offensive weapons. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Patriot Killa Posted May 29, 2019 Share Posted May 29, 2019 I was fine with BPA and Jamal Adams really could of went anywhere inside that top 3. I was excited that we got him. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
section314 Posted May 29, 2019 Share Posted May 29, 2019 11 minutes ago, Scoop24 said: Funny thing is I remember a lot of people on here wanting Mike Williams including some of real knowledgeable draft posters . Guilty as charged. Was my guy all the way. I would not consider myself one of the knowledgeable draft guys, though.? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JustInFudge Posted May 29, 2019 Share Posted May 29, 2019 19 minutes ago, Patriot Killa said: What I am trying to sell you today is that Josh Rosen and Darnold seemed like more promising prospects to me. You seen what I said in the comment below.. I was skeptical on Watson for the spread system and definitely wanted no part of Mahomes. Should I have said “polished”? no. You got me on that. But let’s not act like what I’m saying makes no sense, it does. People were drooling over the next class and for a good enough reason. Sam and Josh both played in pro systems in their first years. I didn’t care about experience or anything like that — that didn’t drive my opinion in the direction it went in. It was the fact that I thought they were simply better prospects who could grow into better QB’s despite a bad coaching staff or inept offensive personnel. Shouldn’t have said polished but other than that, it just feels like you guys are taking what I’m saying and trying to spin every word into this literal sense to drive home a point. Stop, c’mon now. I'm actually more hung up on the overcome the coaching staff piece. On one hand, Hack and Petty could, on the other, Watson and Mahomes couldnt but at the same time, you had a small window into true freshman Sam Darnold with turnover issues and wind-up and often injured ass hat Josh Rosen could. It's confusing. You werent alone in the opinion of 18>17. I remember arguing that till I was blue in the face. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Losmeister Posted May 29, 2019 Share Posted May 29, 2019 On 5/27/2019 at 8:16 AM, GREENBEAN said: Hey, I'm older too(not as quite your age I think). I get it. We have an old school mentality of handing the ball back to the ref after a TD and getting up after a tackle and walking back to the LOS without the dance. Jamal talks. So what man? He comes out every week and plays as hard or harder than every single player on the team. I might prefer the quiet type, but why does it bother so many that he talks? If he didn't come out and play hard, and successfully that would be saying something. We should want 11 Jamal Adams' on D. 11 loudmouths who dont create trurnovers? no thanks 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Patriot Killa Posted May 29, 2019 Share Posted May 29, 2019 1 minute ago, JiF said: I'm actually more hung up on the overcome the coaching staff piece. On one hand, Hack and Petty could, on the other, Watson and Mahomes couldnt but at the same time, you had a small window into true freshman Sam Darnold with turnover issues and wind-up and often injured ass hat Josh Rosen could. It's confusing. You werent alone in the opinion of 18>17. I remember arguing that till I was blue in the face. Meh less petty and hack, more wanting confirmation on if they truly sucked. Josh Rosen was a more pro ready prospect regardless of injuries. We see how that has turned out at the moment but no.. injuries for Rosen nor’ Darnold’s lack of experience bothered me as much as picking another spread QB Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jetsfan80 Posted May 29, 2019 Share Posted May 29, 2019 39 minutes ago, Scoop24 said: Funny thing is I remember a lot of people on here wanting Mike Williams including some of real knowledgeable draft posters . I wanted Watson or Mike Williams. I'd rather take a QB or swing and miss on a WR1 than take a Safety. Macc had no balls and that's a big reason why he sucked. "Safe" gets you nowhere. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jetsfan80 Posted May 29, 2019 Share Posted May 29, 2019 31 minutes ago, Patriot Killa said: I was fine with BPA and Jamal Adams really could of went anywhere inside that top 3. But he didn't, and there's a lot of good reasons why he didn't. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Patriot Killa Posted May 29, 2019 Share Posted May 29, 2019 4 minutes ago, Jetsfan80 said: But he didn't, and there's a lot of good reasons why he didn't. He didn’t mostly because the Bears moved up to #2 for Mitch. The players taken before Jamal are all meh. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ZachEY Posted May 29, 2019 Share Posted May 29, 2019 4 hours ago, greenwichjetfan said: Are you intending the bolded part to be sarcastic? Mahomes would have thrown for 5k yards & 50 tds on the 2018 Jets? Come on man, you’re way too bright for this. Mahomes could still be very good, without putting up all-world numbers. If he did half those numbers, he’s still more valuable than the non-playmaking safety. 4 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wonderboy Posted May 29, 2019 Share Posted May 29, 2019 1 hour ago, Patriot Killa said: What’s pathetic is the lack of necessary context in your post but I guess that would ruin your point. Bowles played Adams near the LOS for the majority of his time in the Bowles system. He’s a strong safety not a free safety. FS’s roam around and look for the pick. Adams was rarely in that situation and when he was he shut down the play. I really don’t see the problem here. I watched drives where Adams single handily forced a 3 and out. He pressured the QB , locked up his man and had a pass deflection and then sacked someone on 3rd. His impact is felt around the entire defense. Have you ever played safety before? It’s more than interceptions. I just listed numerous HOF strong safeties, all of which had outstanding stats in their first 2 years, that Adams cant even sniff at. Since when aren't INT's a measure of a safety be it strong or free? What's pathetic is that you're blinded with your admiration for a guy that's nothing more than an average player that has little impact to the effectiveness of an overall defense. But carry on with your love fest. He's a good tackler. Ok. But he's a huge liability in coverage which is WHY Bowles constantly stuck him near the LOS. It's going to be interesting to see what Williams does with Adams and what Gase and the new GM do when his contract up. The writings on the wall. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ZachEY Posted May 29, 2019 Share Posted May 29, 2019 3 hours ago, Jetsfan80 said: So Baker Mayfield was more polished than DeShaun Watson? Is that what you're saying now? If we’re trying to pretend polished isn’t the new white, maybe we ought not be hitting the nail so squarely on the head with this one. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Patriot Killa Posted May 29, 2019 Share Posted May 29, 2019 1 minute ago, Wonderboy said: I just listed numerous HOF strong safeties, all of which had outstanding stats in their first 2 years, that Adams cant even sniff at. Since when aren't INT's a measure of a safety be it strong or free? What's pathetic is that you're blinded with your admiration for a guy that's nothing more than an average player that has little impact to the effectiveness of an overall defense. But carry on with your love fest. He's a good tackler. Ok. But he's a huge liability in coverage which is WHY Bowles constantly stuck him near the LOS. It's going to be interesting to see what Williams does with Adams and what Gase and the new GM do when his contract up. The writings on the wall. Still wanna run with the bad coverage narrative even with the evidence that you’re wrong right in front of your face? Okay. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Patriot Killa Posted May 29, 2019 Share Posted May 29, 2019 5 minutes ago, TeddEY said: If we’re trying to pretend polished isn’t the new white, maybe we ought not be hitting the nail so squarely on the head with this one. Lord Have mercy. Does everyone have to be accused of color discrimination with you? Stfu Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ZachEY Posted May 29, 2019 Share Posted May 29, 2019 3 hours ago, Jetsfan80 said: It makes some sense. What doesn't make sense is the idea that the '18 class was three 2nd rounders better than the '17 class, plus whoever else we could have drafted in '18 vs Jamal Adams. In both foresight AND hindsight that is simply a silly proposition to chew on. Scouts and GM's barely know how these QB's will turn out. There's no universe where 1 year in advance of the QB's getting heavily scrutinized at by NFL evaluators that someone would be willing to make a bet as bold as that, whether that's you or someone in the game, or anyone else. It makes no sense, unless you outwardly tank, which we did not. What if we won 1-2 more games? What if it wasn’t the Colts, but another QB hungry team? What if Gettleman takes Darnold? There are literally dozens of ways we could have been in a much worse situation and few that would have us in equal or better situations. More simply, a bird in the hand... 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Popular Post dbatesman Posted May 29, 2019 Popular Post Share Posted May 29, 2019 5 hours ago, Patriot Killa said: I just firmly believe that his growth and production, from the start, would be about halved if he was a Jet. Still stunned that this is being presented as an argument against Mahomes, as if a 23-year-old Jets QB throwing for 25 TDs and 6 INTs would have us all demanding to know why we didn't take a strong safety instead 3 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ZachEY Posted May 29, 2019 Share Posted May 29, 2019 Just now, Patriot Killa said: Lord Have mercy. Does everything and everyone have to be accused of color discrimination with you? Stfu Not everything. Not even most things. Just the brutally obvious things. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Patriot Killa Posted May 29, 2019 Share Posted May 29, 2019 . Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Patriot Killa Posted May 29, 2019 Share Posted May 29, 2019 1 minute ago, TeddEY said: Not everything. Not even most things. Just the brutally obvious things. I have nothing against people of color you weirdo. Take that foolery elsewhere Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jvill 51 Posted May 29, 2019 Share Posted May 29, 2019 How long are we going to rehash this same debate? With or without the benefit of hindsight the decision to take a safety over a QB was a bad one, compounded by the fact that we also took a safety with our next pick, and hopefully mitigated by Darnold turning into a stud. At the same time, Jamal Adams is a really god damn good football player, clearly the best on the team last year and likely one of the best moving forward. He clearly elevated his game last year when compared to his rookie season, specifically in coverage. All of the above can be true at the same time. Adams being the wrong pick and Adams still being a great player are not mutually exclusive. You don’t need to unfairly bash Adams as a player to justify your opinion that the pick was wrong. The pick is already made, and the guy who made it has been fired. Why not just hope Adams builds on last year and becomes an even better player? EDIT: I should add that the reverse is also true: you don’t need to bash Mahomes (crazy this even needs to be said) or Watson to justify your belief that Adams is a good player. It’s just a plain fact that a QB is infinitely more valuable than a safety. Even if the odds were lower that Mahomes or Watson panned out as compared to Adams, you take that swing. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ZachEY Posted May 29, 2019 Share Posted May 29, 2019 2 hours ago, Jetsfan80 said: Until he starts picking off some passes, he'll just be a very good linebacker who can cover. People are relying on PFF here way too much. The graph joewilly12 posted had Revis’s all-world season, considered by many non-Jets fans to be the greatest season by a corner, ever, almost insignificantly better than Adams’ 2018 campaign. That should tell you all you need to know. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GREENBEAN Posted May 29, 2019 Share Posted May 29, 2019 11 loudmouths who dont create trurnovers? no thankslol. I know. Having a probowl safety sucks. I hear ya. Again, I Would always prefer the quiet respectful guy if all things were equal. It comes from my old school mentality as a middle aged white beard. But having a guy like Jamal who desperately wants to win and always plays hard is not a negative just because he talks. Sent from my iPhone using JetNation.com mobile app Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ZachEY Posted May 29, 2019 Share Posted May 29, 2019 3 minutes ago, Patriot Killa said: I have nothing against people of color you weirdo. Take that foolery elsewhere It’s a little more complex than that, Mississippi. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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