Cimini radio hit this morning

[Villain The Foe]

2 minutes ago, isired said:

 

???
How much we paid him is irrelevant to whether we improved on the field. Is he a better LB on paper than what we had/would have had?
 

Mosely is the best MLB on the team and is an upgrade from Darren Lee, 

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Undoubtedly the answer is YES. You should change your answer here.

The answer is "No". We upgraded at middle linebacker over Darren Lee, but actually got worse at the cornerback position given that we never replaced Morris Claiborne. 

The two most important positions on the defense have glaring holes. We dont have a pass rusher and we dont have cornerbacks. 

Hopefully guys step up, but when have the Jets ever developed talent? 

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Did we have a pass rush in 2018 that is missing this year? Even an attempt at adding a pass rush makes us better on paper than last year. You should definitely change your answer here.

This is pretty strong homerism. Why would I change my answer here when our 3rd round pass rusher who completely bombed his combine and had a terrible pro day is now a Jet? Dont get me wrong. On draft night I said that if Polite is still on the board when we pick in the 3rd round, though I really REALLY want more offense you have to run to the podium to draft him. Not because I thought that he was the immediate answer, but because like you said, we literally had no answer at the position last year and we didnt address it in free agency and we cant let this opportunity pass. That doesnt mean that he's the answer. I cant change an answer for a rookie who's never played a down in this league and from our last look at him completely bombed at his combine. 

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I can't say we're better at corner, so that's one area. Hoping we can still address that.
 

Explain.

[bitonti]

3 minutes ago, nyjunc said:

Actually it happens almost annually where a bad team (5 or less wins) becomes good and wins 10 or more.  Last year Indy went from 4 to 10(yes, I understand they had different circumstances with the health of luck), Chicago from 5 to 12, Houston 4 to 11.

Does that mean it will happen to us? Of course not but it happens in this league all the time.

I don't know the answer to this question but I wonder how many of those turnaround happened with a new playbook

 

[slats]

10 minutes ago, Villain The Foe said:

(Defense) No. We paid Mosely and insane amount of money, we dont have a pass rush unless Polite actually hits...but he's a rookie, and our cornerback group has to be among the worst in the NFL. So if we cant rush the passer without blitzing Adams and our Corners are among the leagues worst...I cant sit here and honestly say that on a talent level that this Jets defense is any better than it was last year. 

Mosely, at a bare minimum, is a huge, every down upgrade over Lee. And that's coming from someone who thought the Mosely signing was Mac's most questionable move of the offseason. 

They don't have an edge rush unless Polite hits, but Anderson, Williams, & Williams should provide the pass rush were it matters in today's NFL, and against Tom Brady: right up the middle. 

11 minutes ago, Villain The Foe said:

(Coaching) I dont know. It's not like Gase was lighting it up out in Miami. That dude didnt even have a good relationship with his players. At the end of the day there is nothing that is on Gase resume that even qualified him to be the Jets head coach. Us Jets fans are simply accepting it because he's the coach and there's nothing that we can do about it so of course the optimism birth from initial apathy will show its head eventually. 

95% of us hated the fact that Gase would even be considered. Now that he's the coach we're doing the exact same thing the Bills fans did with Rex Ryan. And Miami fans are saying the same thing about the hire that Jets fans said about the Rex hire in Buffalo. 

Every year, we Jet fans looked at Miami's roster and a good portion declared that we were gonna sweep those damn fish. At a bare minimum, we were gonna split. Gase went 5-1 against Bowles. The Jets upgraded at head coach, and at DC. 

I didn't have a firm opinion about Gase before the Jets hired him. However, if you asked me about "Candidate A," who was described as a young, well-regarded offensive mind with previous head coaching experience, I'd've been on-board before you told me who it was. It's true, I don't have a choice now, he's the coach. But I'm willing to give him the benefit of the doubt away from Ryan Tannehill, his back-ups, and the general fishy dysfunction in Miami. Should the Jets get these front office hirings right, I'll feel even better. 

11 minutes ago, Villain The Foe said:

(Specials) You missed this one, but there are 3 parts to football. Offense, defense, special teams. And the answer to that is No. We've downgraded because we cut an All Pro player and we will be replacing him with a guy who we dont know. Also, we had a pro bowl kicker who also isnt returning. We've completely and totally downgraded (on paper) on special teams.

I forget who said it earlier, but I'm with the guy who said, "who cares," about Roberts, as he had an outlier season last year, and is likely to revert back to the mean. Brad Smith was far more prolific for the Jets than Roberts was, any recollection of how he did leaving the Jets for the Bills? I think it's more than likely that Brant Boyer's schemes mean more to the Jets specials than Andre Roberts, and Boyer is still here. 

Same thing with Myers, who also had his best year here last season. I'll just let Boyer do what he does and see what happens. I'm not expecting a total downgrade. At all. 

[Skeptable]

14 minutes ago, bitonti said:

it's not about who is more of a fan... it's about having expectations in line with reality... like when I ask people to charity bet over some stupid outcome 

if there's nothing but pride at stake it's easy to reset the expectations at any time... a.k.a. move the goalposts 

note you go on to predict 7-9 which is a no fun "push" at most books. i could probably find 7.5 somewhere and bet the under.

but that's reality a 4 win team usually doesn't become a 10 win team overnight. 

But there are examples of 4 win or worse teams turning out 10 wins or more as well

Pats in 76 3-11 to 11-3

Bengals in 88 4-12 to losing the Superbowl

Indy in 2012 2-14 to 11 -5

KC in 2013 2-14 to 11-5

Dolphins in 2008 1-15 to 11-5

Colts in 1975

Steelers in 2004 6-10 to 15-1

Colts in 1999 3-13 to 13-3

Rams won the superbowl in 1999 after 4-12 the previous year with a 13-3 Regular season record.

These are some of the more drastic ones but there is normally 1 team to do it every year.... Why are you discounting the Jets?? 

[nyjunc]

1 minute ago, bitonti said:

I don't know the answer to this question but I wonder how many of those turnaround happened with a new playbook

 

Last year Chicago did it, 2 years ago the Rams.  Both brought in new coaches in year 2 for their young QBs.  Let's hope we see similar results

[Skeptable]

2 minutes ago, nyjunc said:

Last year Chicago did it, 2 years ago the Rams.  Both brought in new coaches in year 2 for their young QBs.  Let's hope we see similar results

Actually almost every one I listed in the previous post.

[slats]

9 minutes ago, bitonti said:

Predicting the future is one my interests. Not "betting" per se.  There''s some excitement in looking ahead. 

So you're telling me that I misinterpreted your post where you talked about hitting the ATM, laying down hard earned cash, and you're not playing if you're not playing for money? 

[isired]

You did change your answer about upgrading at LB and upgrading the pass rush (on paper), so it seems you should change your overall response to YES.

Explain.

Well we can sign Claiborne again and be in the same boat. There are other guys out there. Grimes, Munnerlyn, Scandrick, Sensabaugh and others still available, I think. It wasn't a bumper crop of FA CBs that moved this year... maybe a trade would work in today's NFL, I don't know. There's certainly room to improve with a less-than-superstar signing.

[Villain The Foe]

5 minutes ago, Skeptable said:

Special teams coach is the exact same they have had for years... He made those cast-offs all-stars I think you are completely overrating those 2 players.

 Am I? Okay, so before Roberts and Meyers, who did Boyer mold into All pro/pro bowl returner/kicker? 

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Def definitely improved with the best Interior Lineman graded in the last 6 years coming out of the draft... Certainly better then McLendon... Mosley is a massive upgrade to Lee who had to have the play calling taken away from him because he was so bad... 2 massive upgrades... Everything else didn't really change. Williams play calling >>>>> Kacey Rodgers

What does "Massive" mean exactly? We all know that Mosley is going to rack up 100 or so tackles and about 10 TFL's. But what about coverage? That will still be an issue for this team. 

I have no problem saying that Mosley is clearly better than Lee and is a top 10 MLB in the league. But I also have no problem saying that his position doesnt change the fact nor help that we dont have a pass rusher or cornerbacks. Which means that in the passing game, Mosley will be neuralized to a degree. 

Greg Williams is better than Kacey Rodgers, but Williams still needs pieces if you expect him to play chess. We're giving him a bunch of pawns and one Rook in Mosley and then telling him to go out there and play chess. Williams will be able to maximize his talent much better than Rodgers, so for that you have an absolute valid point, but my point is that the Jets really dont have the talent at key positions. 

[bitonti]

8 minutes ago, Skeptable said:

 

These are some of the more drastic ones but there is normally 1 team to do it every year.... Why are you discounting the Jets?? 

1- because the SB champs are in division 

2- how many of those teams changed playbooks/coaches (I honestly don't know the answer)

3- they are pretenders not contenders (i.e. anytime they get a winning record, they read their own press and can't sustain it)

4 - because the Jets will break our hearts every year.  why are you counting on them? 

 

note im not saying they suck but to get to 10 wins they are going to have to get hot and win a bunch in a row (like Houston did last year)  

they will get better - 3 or 4 wins better is a good improvement and a stepping stone to become contenders

they just aren't going to the playoffs 

[bitonti]

6 minutes ago, slats said:

So you're telling me that I misinterpreted your post where you talked about hitting the ATM, laying down hard earned cash, and you're not playing if you're not playing for money? 

 did you buy any merch or a new black jersey for the kids? you laid down cash too, hombre 

side note I didn't say I bet ON the jets. i'm trying to win here. 

[#27TheDominator]

1 minute ago, Peace Frog said:

1998 and maybe 2010?

Who else since the 1980s?

I was referencing 2010.  I think that team was a steamroller with a high schooler at QB.  The 1998 team was great, but I didn't like them very much.  Too many over the hill ex-Giants.  Testaverde had a great year, but I never believed in him as a sustainable option.  I had seen too much of his sucking earlier in his career.  I loved the '82-'86 teams.  They weren't quite as good as the two above, but they could really bring it.  A lot of injury concerns with them.  Freeman and Klecko were both beasts, but rarely healthy. .

[Peace Frog]

1 minute ago, #27TheDominator said:

I was referencing 2010.  I think that team was a steamroller with a high schooler at QB.  The 1998 team was great, but I didn't like them very much.  Too many over the hill ex-Giants.  Testaverde had a great year, but I never believed in him as a sustainable option.  I had seen too much of his sucking earlier in his career.  I loved the '82-'86 teams.  They weren't quite as good as the two above, but they could really bring it.  A lot of injury concerns with them.  Freeman and Klecko were both beasts, but rarely healthy. .

2010 was Sanchez yet you lol’d at Penny?

And I liked Mark. 

[slats]

2 minutes ago, bitonti said:

 did you buy any merch or a new black jersey for the kids? you laid down cash too, hombre 

side note I didn't say I bet ON the jets. i'm trying to win here. 

Haven't bought any Jet gear in years, and won't until the Super Bowl Champion stuff becomes available. If it never does, so be it. 

[bitonti]

2 minutes ago, slats said:

Haven't bought any Jet gear in years, and won't until the Super Bowl Champion stuff becomes available. If it never does, so be it. 

LOL you're never buying merch again

maybe someone will give you a hat for xmas or something 

[DetroitRed]

O Line could be bad. Should be coached better

[#27TheDominator]

3 minutes ago, Peace Frog said:

2010 was Sanchez yet you lol’d at Penny?

And I liked Mark. 

I think I haha'ed but I would LOL at either.  Put a real QB on either of those teams and they could have done some real damage.  The 2010 team actually did, despite their "leader."  

[Villain The Foe]

10 minutes ago, slats said:

Mosely, at a bare minimum, is a huge, every down upgrade over Lee. And that's coming from someone who thought the Mosely signing was Mac's most questionable move of the offseason. 

They don't have an edge rush unless Polite hits, but Anderson, Williams, & Williams should provide the pass rush were it matters in today's NFL, and against Tom Brady: right up the middle. 

Mosley is a huge upgrade in comparison to Lee, he doesnt make the defense as a whole a huge upgrade. 

Also, all this A-gap pressure on Brady I hear year after year. And year after year I never see it. Dude sits in the pocket and throws 3 yard passes and nullifies that pressure. 

Quote

Every year, we Jet fans looked at Miami's roster and a good portion declared that we were gonna sweep those damn fish. At a bare minimum, we were gonna split. Gase went 5-1 against Bowles. The Jets upgraded at head coach, and at DC. 

Gase went 5-1 against Bowles, but Bowles arent coaching the Fish. But Flores is a new head coach and the Belicheat tree has been underwhelming, so I wouldnt argue that we split with the fish. 

Quote

I didn't have a firm opinion about Gase before the Jets hired him. However, if you asked me about "Candidate A," who was described as a young, well-regarded offensive mind with previous head coaching experience, I'd've been on-board before you told me who it was. It's true, I don't have a choice now, he's the coach. But I'm willing to give him the benefit of the doubt away from Ryan Tannehill, his back-ups, and the general fishy dysfunction in Miami. Should the Jets get these front office hirings right, I'll feel even better. 

Benefit of the doubt is a subjective thing. All im saying is that Gase was also a major contributor to the dysfunction that went on in Miami. And the way things have gone since he got with the Jets does give me some concern as well. 

But with that said, I cant judge positively or negatively. This is a different team different coaching staff and a different front office. 

Gase could simply be a control freak genius who finally found his opportunity to show the world what he can do. That is possible. But until then...

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I forget who said it earlier, but I'm with the guy who said, "who cares," about Roberts, as he had an outlier season last year, and is likely to revert back to the mean. Brad Smith was far more prolific for the Jets than Roberts was, any recollection of how he did leaving the Jets for the Bills? I think it's more than likely that Brant Boyer's schemes mean more to the Jets specials than Andre Roberts, and Boyer is still here. 

And Im saying "I care". It was one of the more consistent spots on the Jets and alot of his returns were turned in to field goals given that the offense couldnt move the ball, but those drives probably would have been punts if not for a guy like Roberts who gave the team fantastic field position. 

that's a 3 point swing, and if the Jets offense gets better, that very well could have been a 7 point swing. I dont believe in the "who cares" position when a guy produces for you. Im of the mindset that you keep guys like that. 

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Same thing with Myers, who also had his best year here last season. I'll just let Boyer do what he does and see what happens. I'm not expecting a total downgrade. At all. 

Well, maybe Boyer had a history of producing all pro or pro bowl talent. If he does maybe you're right. Maybe that was his first time producing all pro/pro bowl talent and we believe that he can do it again. Well, I hope that the ability is with the coach and not the players on the field. 

We'll see once the season start, that's for sure. 

[Villain The Foe]

13 minutes ago, isired said:

You did change your answer about upgrading at LB and upgrading the pass rush (on paper), so it seems you should change your overall response to YES.

Why would I if we've gotten worse at CB and we still dont know if we have a pass rusher? Mosley was an upgrade to the MLB position, but he didnt upgrade the defense as a whole. 

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Well we can sign Claiborne again and be in the same boat. There are other guys out there. Grimes, Munnerlyn, Scandrick, Sensabaugh and others still available, I think. It wasn't a bumper crop of FA CBs that moved this year... maybe a trade would work in today's NFL, I don't know. There's certainly room to improve with a less-than-superstar signing.

So in otherwords, the guys you're talking about arent Jets but are still looking for jobs because they're so great? 

 

My answer is no. At the end of the season if the Jets are an 8-9 win team and were competitive in the month of December than I will be corrected. I have no problem with that. But on paper, which is what this discussion is about, I dont see this upgrade that folks are talking about. 

 

[Bugg]

1 hour ago, bitonti said:

the word "winnable" is why I bet

It's accountability... one thing to hope they win and paint your face green it's another to step up to the window and slap down hard earned cash. 

it's a gut check and frankly Warfish, my hopes have been too high on this team for too long 

all of our hopes have been way too high

go to an ATM all of a sudden it becomes real 

put it another way if you aren't playing for money it's not really poker 

****

At Baltimore is a schedule Loss. Assuming Lamar Jackson is healthy, that's a really tough place to play 

vs NYG will be a war. Can't pretend like that's an easy game 

Dallas fans will take over Met Life.

Also the last week of the season at Buffalo it will probably be about 4 degrees below zero 

Get the pessimism. Long term it has been justified. Logically cannot argue with you. 31 teams go home unhappy every season.

But does a little bit of hope get in there, for a moment or 2? Thought that this time, they'll finally get it right? 

Someday we're going to be leading at half of AFC title game AGAIN and this time they're gonna kick some tail in the 2nd half. It's why we all watch. Someday that day is gonna come. 

Gotta walk before you can run. Ans think this team is gonna do some walking. Not predicting ....that....just yet. But hopeful. After all,  they have a franchise QB and did not pick 2 safeties, so...

[isired]

So in otherwords, the guys you're talking about arent Jets but are still looking for jobs because they're so great? 
 
My answer is no. At the end of the season if the Jets are an 8-9 win team and were competitive in the month of December than I will be corrected. I have no problem with that. But on paper, which is what this discussion is about, I dont see this upgrade that folks are talking about. 
 

You changed your answer at LB. You stated that you thought Polite was a good pick there, so on paper we upgraded the pass rush. You understand that it doesn't matter if we don't know it's an upgrade on the field yet, we're talking "on paper" - right? So that's 2 out of 3 areas that you think we upgraded, on paper. CB we're minus Claiborne, but if we do sign 1 or 2 of the FAs, were probably no worse off.

So better off on paper in 2 of 3 areas, worse off in one with the ability (cap room, availability) to break even. You agree with that, right? On paper, before we know what happens on the field?

[Bugg]

6 minutes ago, Villain The Foe said:

Mosley is a huge upgrade in comparison to Lee, he doesnt make the defense as a whole a huge upgrade. 

Also, all this A-gap pressure on Brady I hear year after year. And year after year I never see it. Dude sits in the pocket and throws 3 yard passes and nullifies that pressure. 

Gase went 5-1 against Bowles, but Bowles arent coaching the Fish. But Flores is a new head coach and the Belicheat tree has been underwhelming, so I wouldnt argue that we split with the fish. 

Benefit of the doubt is a subjective thing. All im saying is that Gase was also a major contributor to the dysfunction that went on in Miami. And the way things have gone since he got with the Jets does give me some concern as well. 

But with that said, I cant judge positively or negatively. This is a different team different coaching staff and a different front office. 

Gase could simply be a control freak genius who finally found his opportunity to show the world what he can do. That is possible. But until then...

And Im saying "I care". It was one of the more consistent spots on the Jets and alot of his returns were turned in to field goals given that the offense couldnt move the ball, but those drives probably would have been punts if not for a guy like Roberts who gave the team fantastic field position. 

that's a 3 point swing, and if the Jets offense gets better, that very well could have been a 7 point swing. I dont believe in the "who cares" position when a guy produces for you. Im of the mindset that you keep guys like that. 

Well, maybe Boyer had a history of producing all pro or pro bowl talent. If he does maybe you're right. Maybe that was his first time producing all pro/pro bowl talent and we believe that he can do it again. Well, I hope that the ability is with the coach and not the players on the field. 

We'll see once the season start, that's for sure. 

What I do not get forever; Brady is not going to beat you throwing 30 yards upfield. But teams appear to be happy and die by a thousand little cuts-dumpoffs, screens, quick outs, flats. And they're scared to death to sell out with single coverage and go 5, 6 7 rushers to knock him on his ass, early and often. Yes, he'll find a few guys. But when he's had rough days it's when he gets knocked down and hurried. It's as if DCs are incapable of seeing the big picture. Give up 2 or 3 early big plays, but tradeoff is see to it he has happy feet all day, in addition to making some big defensive plays of your own. 

[Warfish]

1 hour ago, Villain The Foe said:

Are we better on paper (i.e. talent) on special teams now vs 2018? 

You're obsessed with the notion that special teams is somehow the offense and defense when it's its own group. 

(Specials) You missed this one, but there are 3 parts to football. Offense, defense, special teams. And the answer to that is No. We've downgraded because we cut an All Pro player and we will be replacing him with a guy who we dont know. Also, we had a pro bowl kicker who also isnt returning. We've completely and totally downgraded (on paper) on special teams.

Let me remind you what I posted:

Note:  I'm not asking you about Special Teams nor is any reference to special teams relevant to the questions I've directly asked you.

So no, I didn't miss anything at all.  We've covered Special Teams.  I don't need to ask you, nor need to know more, about where you stand on Special Teams.  Reading the post helps.

Quote

To answer your questions though. 

(offense) Yes. We have a legit weapon on offense for the first time in years.

Excellent.  

Quote

(Defense) No. We paid Mosely and insane amount of money, we dont have a pass rush unless Polite actually hits...but he's a rookie, and our cornerback group has to be among the worst in the NFL. So if we cant rush the passer without blitzing Adams and our Corners are among the leagues worst...I cant sit here and honestly say that on a talent level that this Jets defense is any better than it was last year. 

Mosely is a 4-time All-Pro (something you seem to value when discussing say, Kick Returners) and leader but it's about his salary (for a team with cap space to spare)? 

Polite is a risk, sure, but he's better than...no one, right?  At least he is a prospect who did it well in college.

Lee was a weak link, he's gone. 

And we added a top of draft D Tackle, didn't we?  And a generally well-regarded D-Co.

Cb sucked last year and looks to suck this year barring a Tru return to form.

You legitimately don't think the Defense is better at all on-paper?  That's....wow, ok.  An interesting analysis.

Quote

(Coaching) I dont know. It's not like Gase was lighting it up out in Miami. That dude didnt even have a good relationship with his players. At the end of the day there is nothing that is on Gase resume that even qualified him to be the Jets head coach. Us Jets fans are simply accepting it because he's the coach and there's nothing that we can do about it so of course the optimism birth from initial apathy will show its head eventually. 

95% of us hated the fact that Gase would even be considered. Now that he's the coach we're doing the exact same thing the Bills fans did with Rex Ryan. And Miami fans are saying the same thing about the hire that Jets fans said about the Rex hire in Buffalo. 

I'm not a Gase fan, but it's hard to see Gase be less successful here than Bowles was.  

Our previous D-Co was a disatser, now we have a generally well-respected legit D-Co.

And our Special teams Coach is the same guy who turned a nobody returner and kicker into All-Pro's last year.

But it's not better, even on-paper?

Ok, you're certainly entitled to these views.  I think your nuts, frankly.

 

[Warfish]

50 minutes ago, bitonti said:

it's not about who is more of a fan... it's about having expectations in line with reality... like when I ask people to charity bet over some stupid outcome 

if there's nothing but pride at stake it's easy to reset the expectations at any time... a.k.a. move the goalposts 

note you go on to predict 7-9 which is a no fun "push" at most books. i could probably find 7.5 somewhere and bet the under.

but that's reality a 4 win team usually doesn't become a 10 win team overnight. 

Bit, you've known me a long LONG time now.  Am I usually a goalposts mover who won't stand by what he's said?

I stand by what I predict, good or bad, and I'm clear when I'm uncertain or unwilling to be specific on a prediction.

When I say 7<->9, I believe it could be anywhere from 7-9 depending on how the vagaries of an NFL season play out.  Ball bounces a few funny times, it's 9.  Bounces the other way, it's 7.  This is a league designed for mediocrity and 8-8 records.  

No chance I think the Jets are a 4 win team AGAIN in 2019, that would be a colossal disaster and a massive disappointment from Gase and Co.  Barring a ton of injuries, I'd want Gase's goggle-eyed head on a plate if we're 4-12 or worse in 2019.  I'll bring the pitchforks and torches.

If I was tied to a railroad track and had to predict our record, I'd say 8-8.  Not because it's fence sitting, because I think thats the max improvemnt we're going to make this year.  I don;t see this team, despite the improvements, really winning 10 or more.  9 would be a great year tbqh.  7 not so much.

 

[Villain The Foe]

37 minutes ago, isired said:

You changed your answer at LB. You stated that you thought Polite was a good pick there, so on paper we upgraded the pass rush. You understand that it doesn't matter if we don't know it's an upgrade on the field yet, we're talking "on paper" - right? So that's 2 out of 3 areas that you think we upgraded, on paper. CB we're minus Claiborne, but if we do sign 1 or 2 of the FAs, were probably no worse off.
 

I didn't change my answer on Mosley. I said that he was massively overpaid, making the point that his price will not be reflected on the field. That didnt mean that I thought that he wasnt better than Lee. 

You said that his price tag is irrelevant, which was true. So my position never changed. You simply made a good point which I acknowledged. 

However, we've lost talent at the corner position which was already a bad group. 

It's no. 

But dont worry, my position is completely subjective. 

You disagree, which is totally fine.

[JetFreak89]

On 6/3/2019 at 2:28 PM, Mavericknyc1980 said:

Can We still get in on it.

Believe so. It has to be your first bet with FanDuel though.