Why do GMs rarely get a second shot?

[WayneChrebet80]

It kind of sucks when you think about it. Coaches get rehired all the time, but for the most part GMs do not.

I feel bad for a guy like Brian Gaine whom got screwed over by OBrien and his buddy from New England. Despite actually having a good draft and making the playoffs his first year he likely won’t be a top candidate moving forward. 

[Jet Nut]

9 minutes ago, WayneChrebet80 said:

It kind of sucks when you think about it. Coaches get rehired all the time, but for the most part GMs do not.

I feel bad for a guy like Brian Gaine whom got screwed over by OBrien and his buddy from New England. Despite actually having a good draft and making the playoffs his first year he likely won’t be a top candidate moving forward. 

You mean like Tannenbaum?

Like Dorsey?

Like Gettleman?

Like Pioli?

 

[WayneChrebet80]

4 hours ago, Jet Nut said:

You mean like Tannenbaum?

Like Dorsey?

Like Gettleman?

Like Pioli?

 

Pioli-Dmitroff is the top front office guy in Atlanta not Scott.

Dorsey-He wanted out of KC, because he was never going to obtain the money and power most GMs receive with Reid running things. 

Gettleman-Fired because the Carolina owner Richardson always would take input from the players and didn’t let his GMs do their job. Also the Giants are obsessed with hiring people who have ties to the organization which limits their candidate pool. 

Tannenbaum-Never understood what his role was in Miami. His title suggested he was in charge, but he wasn’t the GM (Chris Grier) and didn’t have control of the 53 man roster (Gase). It seemed like Tannenbaum had the ear of the owner for maybe a season before Ross tuned him out and gave full power to Gase. 

Nonetheless four examples still isn’t a lot. 

[Villain The Foe]

On 6/13/2019 at 10:40 AM, WayneChrebet80 said:

Pioli-Dmitroff is the top front office guy in Atlanta not Scott.

Dorsey-He wanted out of KC, because he was never going to obtain the money and power most GMs receive with Reid running things. 

Gettleman-Fired because the Carolina owner Richardson always would take input from the players and didn’t let his GMs do their job. Also the Giants are obsessed with hiring people who have ties to the organization which limits their candidate pool. 

Tannenbaum-Never understood what his role was in Miami. His title suggested he was in charge, but he wasn’t the GM (Chris Grier) and didn’t have control of the 53 man roster (Gase). It seemed like Tannenbaum had the ear of the owner for maybe a season before Ross tuned him out and gave full power to Gase. 

Nonetheless four examples still isn’t a lot. 

Numerically it isnt alot, given that it's just 4, but in reality that's 12.5% of GM's in the league.

That's not bad when you consider that there's just 32 of those positions in the world. 4 doesnt seem so small afterall, especially when considering that some GM's wont even be fired because they're doing a good job (the Belichick's and Newsome's of the world), which means that the turnover rate is way less than 32 which means the percentage of rehires based on turnover rate must be higher than that initial 12.5%. Its important to view the turnover rate in order to provide proper context.

 

And that percentage is based the 4 GM's mentioned here, there could be more out there. 

That percentage isnt bad at all considering that there are also new candidates like Joe Douglass who are atleast worthy of being interviewed every year.

 

[jgb]

GMs get fired for taking a chance on a first-time HC who fails. Who can fire the owner if he makes the same mistake with hiring a GM? Also, billionaires really do believe they are smarter and better than everyone else and that THEY can find the unknown toiling in the office of another team that has the next, great GM inside him.

[Kleckineau]

Unlike Macc, Gaine will most likely be given another shot.

Like Idzik, Macc may get another NFL job but never as a GM. He did nothing to deserve chance #2.  Senior vice president of caffeine acquisition sounds about right for his next gig.

[jack48]

8 hours ago, WayneChrebet80 said:

It kind of sucks when you think about it. Coaches get rehired all the time, but for the most part GMs do not.

I feel bad for a guy like Brian Gaine whom got screwed over by OBrien and his buddy from New England. Despite actually having a good draft and making the playoffs his first year he likely won’t be a top candidate moving forward. 

the job is too important.  the damage is usually long term

[Patriot Killa]

Owners already understand your philosophy and your body of work is out there for everyone to see.

Once you fail as a GM and you fail to take a team to the next level with no prior success...well it’s understood that you just aren’t good at doing exactly that lol. Dorsey had made good picks prior, Gettleman made good picks prior... if you’re Maccagnan and you really just haven’t done much but put together 4-12 teams, 6-10 teams, 5-11 teams.... well you aren’t getting another look.

[Jet Nut]

3 hours ago, WayneChrebet80 said:

Pioli-Dmitroff is the top front office guy in Atlanta not Scott.

Dorsey-He wanted out of KC, because he was never going to obtain the money and power most GMs receive with Reid running things. 

Gettleman-Fired because the Carolina owner Richardson always would take input from the players and didn’t let his GMs do their job. Also the Giants are obsessed with hiring people who have ties to the organization which limits their candidate pool. 

Tannenbaum-Never understood what his role was in Miami. His title suggested he was in charge, but he wasn’t the GM (Chris Grier) and didn’t have control of the 53 man roster (Gase). It seemed like Tannenbaum had the ear of the owner for maybe a season before Ross tuned him out and gave full power to Gase. 

Nonetheless four examples still isn’t a lot. 

Pioli has been under consideration at other places too.  Like here.  

You can make all the excuses for the names I though out there off the top of my head but they have gotten other jobs.

 

[Philc1]

Because crappy GMs like Idzik and Macagnan are known 

[Philc1]

4 hours ago, Kleckineau said:

Unlike Macc, Gaine will most likely be given another shot.

Like Idzik, Macc may get another NFL job but never as a GM. He did nothing to deserve chance #2.  Senior vice president of caffeine acquisition sounds about right for his next gig.

You think he will Gaine another opportunity?

[Jet Nut]

5 hours ago, jgb said:

Also, billionaires really do believe they are smarter and better than everyone else and that THEY can find the unknown toiling in the office of another team that has the next, great GM inside him.

Well WJohnson feeling the need to hire two groups to help in the HC and GM search over the years kind of says that billionaires arent always 100% sure and confident that they are smarter or better than everyone else and that THEY can find the unknown toiling in the office of another team on their own

[jgb]

48 minutes ago, Jet Nut said:

Well WJohnson feeling the need to hire two groups to help in the HC and GM search over the years kind of says that billionaires arent always 100% sure and confident that they are smarter or better than everyone else and that THEY can find the unknown toiling in the office of another team on their own

Good point—maybe the difference between the self-made and the inheritors

[RichardTodd27]

4 hours ago, Kleckineau said:

Like Idzik, Macc may get another NFL job but never as a GM. He did nothing to deserve chance #2.  Senior vice president of caffeine acquisition sounds about right for his next gig.

Not so sure about that. If the Jets are able to put together a great year (this year) Macc should get most of the credit and could use it to land another GM job.

Not saying Macc deserves it, but stranger things have happened.

[Philc1]

17 minutes ago, RichardTodd27 said:

Not so sure about that. If the Jets are able to put together a great year (this year) Macc should get most of the credit and could use it to land another GM job.

Not saying Macc deserves it, but stranger things have happened.

No one thinks Macagnan is a good GM except some jets fans

[Joe W. Namath]

13 hours ago, WayneChrebet80 said:

It kind of sucks when you think about it. Coaches get rehired all the time, but for the most part GMs do not.

I feel bad for a guy like Brian Gaine whom got screwed over by OBrien and his buddy from New England. Despite actually having a good draft and making the playoffs his first year he likely won’t be a top candidate moving forward. 

Y dont you feel bad for Mac?  He put together this team that alot of us think are going to win 10 games and make the playoffs.

[ZachEY]

Lets look at our two recent guys.

Bowles was well respected in the league beforehand, and a proven DC, at the very least.  Whether you agree with this or not, another organization can look at him and say something along the lines of, "he failed because of the talent he had.  Not many coaches would have succeeded in this situation.  He never had a QB, until Darnold, and only got one year with him" and so on and so forth.  

With Macc, he was somewhat of a respected scout, but what narrative do you spin around him?  "He made the trade to get Darnold?" or "He did alright when picking at the top of the draft."

The bottom line is, it's much harder to sell the guy who creates the context than the one who works within it.

[ZachEY]

41 minutes ago, RichardTodd27 said:

Not so sure about that. If the Jets are able to put together a great year (this year) Macc should get most of the credit and could use it to land another GM job.

Not saying Macc deserves it, but stranger things have happened.

The reason this probably ought not happen is pretty simple.  It took 5 drafts to get to a place where the team might make the playoffs.  Do you add a GM who's narrative in this case was, picked top 10 all but one year, and twice had league leading(ish) cap space, and made a wild-card in year 5?  Give or take, you hire a guy with the intention that after two drafts, maybe 3, he should have a contender on the field, I'd think.  Macc took 5, and we haven't even proven to be a playoff team yet.

[Kleckineau]

1 hour ago, RichardTodd27 said:

Not so sure about that. If the Jets are able to put together a great year (this year) Macc should get most of the credit and could use it to land another GM job.

Not saying Macc deserves it, but stranger things have happened.

When you consider a flunky like Rex got an undeserved second chance sure its possible Macc can land some where. I dont see it happening mainly because his NFL exec career is now on life support and there arent any desperate teams currently conducting a search. Hell, Houston Texans, who know Macc better than any team out there needs a GM right now and they have shown zero interest which implies they realize he was way over-promoted by NY.

[Augustiniak]

38 minutes ago, TeddEY said:

Lets look at our two recent guys.

Bowles was well respected in the league beforehand, and a proven DC, at the very least.  Whether you agree with this or not, another organization can look at him and say something along the lines of, "he failed because of the talent he had.  Not many coaches would have succeeded in this situation.  He never had a QB, until Darnold, and only got one year with him" and so on and so forth.  

With Macc, he was somewhat of a respected scout, but what narrative do you spin around him?  "He made the trade to get Darnold?" or "He did alright when picking at the top of the draft."

The bottom line is, it's much harder to sell the guy who creates the context than the one who works within it.

said differently, there are many reasons why a coach could fail.  but if a gm drafts bad players, there's nowhere else to pin the blame.  

[slats]

1 hour ago, Augustiniak said:

said differently, there are many reasons why a coach could fail.  but if a gm drafts bad players, there's nowhere else to pin the blame.  

The flip-side of that is if these same players make the playoffs in their first year under Gase, maybe it was the coaching and not the drafting. Really could go either way. In a couple years, Mac could just be that guy who drafted Darnold and Adams and maybe deserves another look. 

Not that I expect it, but it's certainly possible. 

[Lizard King]

On 6/13/2019 at 11:21 AM, Philc1 said:

Because crappy GMs like Idzik and Macagnan are known 

Idzik is a consultant to the Jaguars, under Tom Coughlin. 

[NYJ1]

On 6/12/2019 at 11:35 PM, WayneChrebet80 said:

It kind of sucks when you think about it. Coaches get rehired all the time, but for the most part GMs do not.

I feel bad for a guy like Brian Gaine whom got screwed over by OBrien and his buddy from New England. Despite actually having a good draft and making the playoffs his first year he likely won’t be a top candidate moving forward. 

Because if you can't draft you have no business being a GM. It's that simple. And NO I don't feel bad for Mac or Gains or any other failure GM. If they don't realize how important the draft is and that drafting is the single most important (no failure tolerated) task of the job, then they had no business being GM anyway.

[Lith]

No idea if these allegations are true, but there may be more to this firing than meets the eye.  It also could be nothing more than sour grapes from a fired employee.  Part of the article is pasted in below

https://www.msn.com/en-us/sports/nfl/complaint-fired-texans-gm-brian-gaine-targeted-african-american-employees-in-series-of-firings/ar-AACPiID?ocid=st

Recently fired Houston Texans general manager Brian Gaine “targeted” African American employees in a series of firings during his tenure, a former Texans security coordinator alleged in a complaint filed with the Equal Employment Opportunity Commission.  

Jeff Pope, who was notified he would not be retained by the team May 8, made a series of allegations in a 4,500-word charge of discrimination complaint obtained by USA TODAY Sports early Thursday morning. Gaine was fired by the Texans on Friday with little insight into the move disclosed by the team. 

Attempts to reach Gaine were not immediately successful Thursday morning.

Texans spokesperson Amy Palcic told The Houston Chronicle that Pope’s allegations of racial bias “was not a factor in the recent decision to relieve Brian Gaine from his job as general manager.” 

“We have just been made aware of Mr. Pope’s claim,” Palcic said. “We do not comment on pending litigation. The Houston Texans do not tolerate personal or professional discrimination of any kind."

Pope, who is African American, listed eight other African Americans who were allegedly fired by Gaine after he took over as GM in January 2018. 

[jgb]

22 hours ago, Lith said:

Pope, who is African American, listed eight other African Americans who were allegedly fired by Gaine after he took over as GM in January 2018. 

I know nothing about this specific situation but don’t incoming GMs usually clean house and bring in “his guys?” I’d be interested to know whether Gaine replaced any of these guys with African Americans and whether his house cleaning was in line with what new GMs typically do.

[Ohio State NY Jets fan]

On 6/12/2019 at 11:35 PM, WayneChrebet80 said:

It kind of sucks when you think about it. Coaches get rehired all the time, but for the most part GMs do not.

There are some jobs that require such a broad range of of skills and experience that they cannot be simply learned/developed in a traditional career path, I think NFL GM is probably one of those roles, like leadership, you can teach someone to be a better leader but if they do not have ability in all areas, they will not be successful

For anyone who has read Good to Great, this is probably a good example, learning on the job can only move the needle so far, we are all naturally good at some things and not others, the things we are naturally good at, can be developed to be great, others the ceiling is good but not great, (owners do not seem to hire GM's to be good, they want/need a great GM or bust)

another example if you are not comfortable as public speaker, quick on your feet, etc... you can train and practice but probably never reach greatness as a public speaker but if you enjoy it the first time (comes natural ) and have passion then you can be great - does not apply to everything but a GM has many roles and you have to be good in all of them to make it

[Lith]

32 minutes ago, jgb said:

I know nothing about this specific situation but don’t incoming GMs usually clean house and bring in “his guys?” I’d be interested to know whether Gaine replaced any of these guys with African Americans and whether his house cleaning was in line with what new GMs typically do.

According to the articele, the allegations contend that he did not replace them with other African Americans.  From later in the article that I linked (I did not post the whole thing):

“It appeared, and I believe, that he was targeting all minorities in leadership positions and was set to replace them with non-African-Americans. Which he did,” Pope wrote in the complaint.

 

[Jetsfan80]

On 6/13/2019 at 3:31 PM, slats said:

The flip-side of that is if these same players make the playoffs in their first year under Gase, maybe it was the coaching and not the drafting. 

We made the playoffs the first year under Bowles too.  The new HC comes in, "changes the culture" and the team succeeds out of the gates.  That happens all the time in this league.  Gase himself made the playoffs his first year in Miami. 

If it happens with Gase in '19, it doesn't suddenly make everyone forget all the awful draft picks over a 5 year period.  And in any case, wasn't Macc on the outs with the Texans before he got hired here?  It's not like he had a tremendous reputation. 

[jgb]

29 minutes ago, Lith said:

According to the articele, the allegations contend that he did not replace them with other African Americans.  From later in the article that I linked (I did not post the whole thing):

“It appeared, and I believe, that he was targeting all minorities in leadership positions and was set to replace them with non-African-Americans. Which he did,” Pope wrote in the complaint.

 

thanks for the clarification

[section314]

I think it's chiefly two reasons. First, and easiest, is the "old boys "network for coaches is much stronger than for GM's. Second, the feeling seems to be that there are more moving parts for a GM, the draft, FA. roster mgmt, contracts, than there is for a coach. Point being, way more chance for a GM to hurt an organization, both short and long term. Just using this site as an example, when Bowles was finally fired last December, as many, if not more, posters felt that he was probably better at his job than Macc was. I guess the perception is the GM can really handicap the coach, and the organization, way more than a coach can do the same. Idzik killed Rex, etc.

[Bleedin Green]

On 6/13/2019 at 3:31 PM, slats said:

The flip-side of that is if these same players make the playoffs in their first year under Gase, maybe it was the coaching and not the drafting. Really could go either way. In a couple years, Mac could just be that guy who drafted Darnold and Adams and maybe deserves another look. 

Not that I expect it, but it's certainly possible. 

That's been a narrative pushed around here by Mac apologists for years now, and while I have no interest in defending Bowles in the least, the point still stands now as it did then: the next Mac acquisition to have greater success elsewhere (or under a different coach) will be the very first.  There are plenty of players who have come and gone over the past 5 years, and if there was any inkling of truth to this, it would've come to light by now.  Instead, guys who failed with the Jets during Mac's tenure have ended up out of the league shortly thereafter the overwhelming majority of the time.

I know you're not really pushing that point, but rather it's just that while this situation would've perhaps been possible when looked at years ago, it's already been proven completely false for at least 3 of his drafts at this stage.

[Barry McCockinner]

They tend to be well trained marksmen.

[#27TheDominator]

On 6/13/2019 at 8:07 AM, Jet Nut said:

Pioli has been under consideration at other places too.  Like here.  

You can make all the excuses for the names I though out there off the top of my head but they have gotten other jobs.

 

Plenty of others.  Spielman was GM in Miami and had to go rehab his name with the Vikings for 5 years, but got another shot.  Allen here in DC was a canned with Gruden in Tampa.  Hurney (Wheaton/Olney - woot woot) was GM in Carolina for years before Gettelman pushed him out and is back in charge there.  Roseman was never fired from the Eagles, but his power was stripped by Chip Kelly and appears to have been restored.  It is a pretty fair number when you consider the guys that they groom for years like DeCosta and the propensity to hire former players like Elway and Lynch. 

[Jetsfan80]

23 minutes ago, Bleedin Green said:

That's been a narrative pushed around here by Mac apologists for years now, and while I have no interest in defending Bowles in the least, the point still stands now as it did then: the next Mac acquisition to have greater success elsewhere (or under a different coach) will be the very first.  There are plenty of players who have come and gone over the past 5 years, and if there was any inkling of truth to this, it would've come to light by now.  Instead, guys who failed with the Jets during Mac's tenure have ended up out of the league shortly thereafter the overwhelming majority of the time.

I know you're not really pushing that point, but rather it's just that while this situation would've perhaps been possible when looked at years ago, it's already been proven completely false for at least 3 of his drafts at this stage. 

 

Yep.  Darron Lee was so well-thought of around that the league that 3 years after getting taken in the 1st round, he was only worth a 5th rounder (which Macc refused to accept) then cast off for a 6th.  All Bowles' fault!!

[rangerous]

i'm not exactly crying for any fired gm.  they all make some good money and if they do fail at gm they can always move back to a different front office job.  look at bradway.  he was gm for a few seasons and then was replaced by tanny.  but he was still retained as head of scouting.  and then you have gm's like elllway or matt millen who really aren't that good but stick around for too much time.

but to answer the question, it's probably because the good ones stick around for quite a few seasons and have a good owner and coaches.