JuncSanchize Posted July 23, 2019 Share Posted July 23, 2019 2 minutes ago, Jet Nut said: If he made more pro bowls you know the genius would claim that pro bowls are popularity contests, which they often are, or that he made them because of his last name. Then he'll claim victory and jump around in his mothers basement fist pumping no one BTW, love the name, so relevant. Oh yea thanks. Who were the backups on those NYG teams? They would have won with them according to Junc. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pdxgreen Posted July 23, 2019 Share Posted July 23, 2019 I think it's more just "His Mouth" thread at this point. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
slats Posted July 23, 2019 Share Posted July 23, 2019 3 minutes ago, Jet Nut said: So 60,000 or so yards, 400 TDs and longevity, top 10 in every relevant QB ranking, arent HOF numbers? I agree, his career seems more ordinary until you not only look at his numbers but those two SB rings Without the Super Bowls, he wouldn't have the longevity. The Super Bowls are the only reason he's in the conversation. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NYs Stepchild Posted July 23, 2019 Share Posted July 23, 2019 31 minutes ago, Jet Nut said: The Eli with the two SB rings? No I wouldnt. Pretty simple, those 4 dont have a single ring. So you think SD would have won how many championships if they had kept ELi? 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nyjunc Posted July 23, 2019 Share Posted July 23, 2019 14 minutes ago, slats said: There have been 53 Super Bowls and Eli was the MVP of two of them. In one, his wild card team beat the then 18-0 Tom Brady Patriots. However aggressively you want to rationalize against whether or not he was worthy, you can't take that away from him. Without the Super Bowls, he's not HoF worthy. I agree with you about most of his rather middling career. But he has those Super Bowls. Quick glance at the list of Super Bowl MVPs, and I only count four other players who have won two or more. He's going into the Hall, despite your kicking and screaming. He won 2 SBs without leading his O to 20 points against opponents that averaged 37 and 32 PPG. Do you think the D had a little more to do with those victories? The man has never won a single playoff game when his D allowed more than 20 points. That tells us unless his D is playing great he has no chance to win. A SB MVP award is a one game award not a seasons worth. He'd be the first QB in the Hall without a single all pro selection, he'd also be the first QB in the hall who has never led in any major category. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nyjunc Posted July 23, 2019 Share Posted July 23, 2019 17 minutes ago, Jet Nut said: If he made more pro bowls you know the genius would claim that pro bowls are popularity contests, which they often are, or that he made them because of his last name. Then he'll claim victory and jump around in his mothers basement fist pumping no one BTW, love the name, so relevant. They are a popularity contest, one you warm a reputation as a top player you make it even when you don't have a great year. The fact that he only earned 2 in 14 years as a starter should tell you something. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
slats Posted July 23, 2019 Share Posted July 23, 2019 2 minutes ago, nyjunc said: He'd be the first QB in the Hall without a single all pro selection, he'd also be the first QB in the hall who has never led in any major category. Then that's what he'll be. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jet Nut Posted July 23, 2019 Share Posted July 23, 2019 19 minutes ago, JuncSanchize said: Oh yea thanks. Who were the backups on those NYG teams? They would have won with them according to Junc. The backup would have put up more points. Making him a better HOF candidate. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jet Nut Posted July 23, 2019 Share Posted July 23, 2019 16 minutes ago, slats said: Without the Super Bowls, he wouldn't have the longevity. The Super Bowls are the only reason he's in the conversation. I hear you, just dont see it. Especially the longevity part His numbers are in the ballpark of Rivers in every catagory and Rivers is in the conversation to go into the HOF without a single ring. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jet Nut Posted July 23, 2019 Share Posted July 23, 2019 13 minutes ago, NYs Stepchild said: So you think SD would have won how many championships if they had kept ELi? Sports dont work that way. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jet Nut Posted July 23, 2019 Share Posted July 23, 2019 9 minutes ago, nyjunc said: They are a popularity contest, one you warm a reputation as a top player you make it even when you don't have a great year. The fact that he only earned 2 in 14 years as a starter should tell you something. Popularity contest thats also helped by being on a winning team most of the time. Get on primetime TV telecasts so that the voters actually get to watch you and hear Collingsworth tell the voters how impressive that player is. Pro bowls dont tell you anything Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
slats Posted July 23, 2019 Share Posted July 23, 2019 6 minutes ago, Jet Nut said: His numbers are in the ballpark of Rivers in every catagory and Rivers is in the conversation to go into the HOF without a single ring. Not really. Rivers' career passer rating is 11 points higher than Eli's. Rivers bests him in every category except for total yards, but Rivers takes him on ypa by a large margin, 7.8 to 7.0. A QB with a career passer rating of 84.1 in this era isn't sniffing the HoF without having those championships on his resume. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Peace Frog Posted July 23, 2019 Share Posted July 23, 2019 I’ve never been a JN member before and I have one and only one account. Sociopaths make up excuses to deal with reality. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jet Nut Posted July 23, 2019 Share Posted July 23, 2019 11 minutes ago, slats said: Not really. Rivers' career passer rating is 11 points higher than Eli's. Rivers bests him in every category except for total yards, but Rivers takes him on ypa by a large margin, 7.8 to 7.0. A QB with a career passer rating of 84.1 in this era isn't sniffing the HoF without having those championships on his resume. Dont really think anyone points to a flawed QBR as a measuring stick. I think the difference in their stats are ballpark. Theyre both top 10 in all QB categories that count which is why both are in the discussion for the HOF. Elis is an easier sell because those top 10 numbers come with 2 SB wins. Something Rivers cant point to Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jet Nut Posted July 23, 2019 Share Posted July 23, 2019 7 minutes ago, Peace Frog said: I’ve never been a JN member before and I have one and only one account. Sociopaths make up excuses to deal with reality. Because its well documented, if you had a different name in the past, then you cant ever be right. Then again, no one can ever prove him wrong, hes always right, so whats the F'n point hes trying to make? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NYs Stepchild Posted July 23, 2019 Share Posted July 23, 2019 30 minutes ago, Jet Nut said: Sports dont work that way. Well if you watch them play, you could tell whom was the better QB. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NYs Stepchild Posted July 23, 2019 Share Posted July 23, 2019 13 minutes ago, Peace Frog said: I’ve never been a JN member before and I have one and only one account. Sociopaths make up excuses to deal with reality. Simmer down now. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jet Nut Posted July 23, 2019 Share Posted July 23, 2019 4 minutes ago, NYs Stepchild said: Well if you watch them play, you could tell whom was the better QB. I clearly said he has two rings. Rivers has none. Their numbers are pretty much the same. Its not so clear, especially if you take the Eli and Giants hatred out of the equation Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
slats Posted July 23, 2019 Share Posted July 23, 2019 10 minutes ago, Jet Nut said: Dont really think anyone points to a flawed QBR as a measuring stick. I think the difference in their stats are ballpark. Theyre both top 10 in all QB categories that count which is why both are in the discussion for the HOF. Elis is an easier sell because those top 10 numbers come with 2 SB wins. Something Rivers cant point to It's their passer rating system, not mine. They look at it. The two players are that far apart because Rivers completes passes at a higher rate for more TDs, more ypa, and fewer ints. Rivers has 14 more TDs on nearly 1000 fewer attempts. No one is talking about Eli for the HoF without the championships. He's simply not in the discussion. Oh, and for longevity, four years into Eli's career people were describing him with the bust word. His career comp% at that point was below 55%, his ypa was under 6.5, he threw a bunch of ints; he was a below average QB. If Eli had finished his fourth season, a year in which he led the NFL in interceptions, with his third straight 0-1 in the playoffs instead of 4-0 and a Super Bowl MVP award, the Giants are probably looking for his replacement the following year. No way he compiles those top ten career stats without that first Super Bowl. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NYs Stepchild Posted July 23, 2019 Share Posted July 23, 2019 17 minutes ago, Jet Nut said: I clearly said he has two rings. Rivers has none. Their numbers are pretty much the same. Its not so clear, especially if you take the Eli and Giants hatred out of the equation Similar as in they both play the same game? Rivers 212 games 64.5 comp % 7.8 yards/att 374 TDs 178 Int Eli 232 games 60.3 comp % 7.0 yards/att 360 TDs 239 Int I don't care what rating system you use. Rivers is top 5 most years and Eli is top 20. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bruce Harper Posted July 23, 2019 Share Posted July 23, 2019 49 minutes ago, NYs Stepchild said: Similar as in they both play the same game? Rivers 212 games 64.5 comp % 7.8 yards/att 374 TDs 178 Int Eli 232 games 60.3 comp % 7.0 yards/att 360 TDs 239 Int I don't care what rating system you use. Rivers is top 5 most years and Eli is top 20. Rivers' career numbers are undeniably better. But Eli did play his best in the biggest games. I'd take the two rings. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
greenwichjetfan Posted July 23, 2019 Share Posted July 23, 2019 3 hours ago, Villain The Foe said: Eli Manning is a HOF quarterback. 3 hours ago, nyjunc said: I keep seeing people tell me Eli is a HOFer, I have yet to see anyone make a case for why Eli is one of the greatest QBs of all time. What happens when an unstoppable force meets an immovable object? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jet Nut Posted July 23, 2019 Share Posted July 23, 2019 1 hour ago, NYs Stepchild said: Similar as in they both play the same game? Rivers 212 games 64.5 comp % 7.8 yards/att 374 TDs 178 Int Eli 232 games 60.3 comp % 7.0 yards/att 360 TDs 239 Int I don't care what rating system you use. Rivers is top 5 most years and Eli is top 20. Yeah, similar. Yardage is similar, production is similar. Unless you want to get worked up over 2 feet more in yards/att or less than one TD per year difference. They do play on different teams, hard to say with numbers this close what was the biggest difference, their play or their teams. All the haters just want to argue that these negligible differences are game changers, thats fine. Because all of your Eli is top 20 talk makes it hard to explain how hes in the top 10 of every single QB ranking system that counts. You dont like Eli or the Giants, I get it, neither do I. But Im not going to run around claiming that a QB who after 15 years is top 10 in every catagory isnt HOF material. And Im certainly not going to argue that someone with similar enough numbers and not one SB is better. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jet Nut Posted July 23, 2019 Share Posted July 23, 2019 1 hour ago, slats said: It's their passer rating system, not mine. They look at it. The two players are that far apart because Rivers completes passes at a higher rate for more TDs, more ypa, and fewer ints. Rivers has 14 more TDs on nearly 1000 fewer attempts. No one is talking about Eli for the HoF without the championships. He's simply not in the discussion. Oh, and for longevity, four years into Eli's career people were describing him with the bust word. His career comp% at that point was below 55%, his ypa was under 6.5, he threw a bunch of ints; he was a below average QB. If Eli had finished his fourth season, a year in which he led the NFL in interceptions, with his third straight 0-1 in the playoffs instead of 4-0 and a Super Bowl MVP award, the Giants are probably looking for his replacement the following year. No way he compiles those top ten career stats without that first Super Bowl. Giants have loved Eli from day 1. Accorsi did everything he could to get him. He wasnt going anywhere, especially with Accorsi around. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kleckineau Posted July 23, 2019 Share Posted July 23, 2019 Philip Rivers AND Eli Manning are both 1st ballot HOF QBs. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
slats Posted July 23, 2019 Share Posted July 23, 2019 4 minutes ago, Jet Nut said: Giants have loved Eli from day 1. Accorsi did everything he could to get him. He wasnt going anywhere, especially with Accorsi around. Ernie Accorsi was no longer with the Giants in 2007. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jet Nut Posted July 23, 2019 Share Posted July 23, 2019 15 minutes ago, slats said: Ernie Accorsi was no longer with the Giants in 2007. True, but he loved Eli. I may be wrong but I dont think when Ernie retired anyone was look to dump Eli though. Think he was kind of in that middle zone where you didnt know if he would advance or if what you saw was what you would get. He did go onto pretty much 8 straight seasons of 4K+ yardage and enough production where he wasnt going anywhere. Of course his biggest contribution was in big games where he came through for them. It is important to understand, I'm not trying to make a case for Eli as a top QB. I just said that I think given his numbers and SBs hes going into the HOF. Where nyjunc wants to argue that hes not and doesnt deserve to go in. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
roscoeword Posted July 23, 2019 Share Posted July 23, 2019 2 hours ago, slats said: It's their passer rating system, not mine. They look at it. The two players are that far apart because Rivers completes passes at a higher rate for more TDs, more ypa, and fewer ints. Rivers has 14 more TDs on nearly 1000 fewer attempts. No one is talking about Eli for the HoF without the championships. He's simply not in the discussion. Oh, and for longevity, four years into Eli's career people were describing him with the bust word. His career comp% at that point was below 55%, his ypa was under 6.5, he threw a bunch of ints; he was a below average QB. If Eli had finished his fourth season, a year in which he led the NFL in interceptions, with his third straight 0-1 in the playoffs instead of 4-0 and a Super Bowl MVP award, the Giants are probably looking for his replacement the following year. No way he compiles those top ten career stats without that first Super Bowl. I remember that. He was awful early in his career, but he had a long rope because of his pedigree and high draft position. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
slats Posted July 23, 2019 Share Posted July 23, 2019 6 minutes ago, Jet Nut said: It is important to understand, I'm not trying to make a case for Eli as a top QB. I just said that I think given his numbers and SBs hes going into the HOF. Where nyjunc wants to argue that hes not and doesnt deserve to go in. His numbers aren't HoF worthy, but the Super Bowls are. For example, Andy Dalton has a better comp%, TD%, ypa, and lower int% than Eli, but there's not anyone, anywhere suggesting he has HoF caliber stats. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jet Nut Posted July 23, 2019 Share Posted July 23, 2019 8 minutes ago, slats said: His numbers aren't HoF worthy, but the Super Bowls are. For example, Andy Dalton has a better comp%, TD%, ypa, and lower int% than Eli, but there's not anyone, anywhere suggesting he has HoF caliber stats. As I said, hes top 10 in every single meaningful stat to judge a QB by. I think thats enough as much as I dont like him or the Giants. Dalton has basically the same Y/A etc. Over half the number of years. Again, I'm not making a case for him being a top QB but with his numbers and 2 SBs hes going into the HOF. I dont see how someone who is top 10 in every QB catagory over a career as long as his doesnt get in. No matter how much we dont want to admit it Thats it Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
slats Posted July 23, 2019 Share Posted July 23, 2019 2 minutes ago, Jet Nut said: As I said, hes top 10 in every single meaningful stat to judge a QB by. I think thats enough as much as I dont like him or the Giants. Dalton has basically the same Y/A etc. Over half the number of years. Again, I'm not making a case for him being a top QB but with his numbers and 2 SBs hes going into the HOF. I dont see how someone who is top 10 in every QB catagory over a career as long as his doesnt get in. No matter how much we dont want to admit it Thats it I also expect him to get in, but only because of the Super Bowls. Without them, he's not even considered. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NYs Stepchild Posted July 23, 2019 Share Posted July 23, 2019 27 minutes ago, Jet Nut said: Yeah, similar. Yardage is similar, production is similar. Unless you want to get worked up over 2 feet more in yards/att or less than one TD per year difference. They do play on different teams, hard to say with numbers this close what was the biggest difference, their play or their teams. All the haters just want to argue that these negligible differences are game changers, thats fine. Because all of your Eli is top 20 talk makes it hard to explain how hes in the top 10 of every single QB ranking system that counts. You dont like Eli or the Giants, I get it, neither do I. But Im not going to run around claiming that a QB who after 15 years is top 10 in every catagory isnt HOF material. And Im certainly not going to argue that someone with similar enough numbers and not one SB is better. The difference between 7.8 yards/att and 7 yards/ att is Rivers 9th all time. Eli 85th. TD % Rivers 27th. Eli Manning 68th. Int % Rivers 21st. Eli 48th. TD/Int ration Rivers 12th Eli 41st. So yeah basically the same. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jet Nut Posted July 23, 2019 Share Posted July 23, 2019 1 minute ago, slats said: I also expect him to get in, but only because of the Super Bowls. Without them, he's not even considered. He sure would have been considered with top 10 finishes, 60,000 yards and somewhere near 400 TDs. But its all good, we had Geno Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jet Nut Posted July 23, 2019 Share Posted July 23, 2019 9 minutes ago, NYs Stepchild said: The difference between 7.8 yards/att and 7 yards/ att is Rivers 9th all time. Eli 85th. TD % Rivers 27th. Eli Manning 68th. Int % Rivers 21st. Eli 48th. TD/Int ration Rivers 12th Eli 41st. So yeah basically the same. Cooooool, cherry pick numbers, ignore others and make this a Rivers vs Eli competition. How many different ways can you compare their TDs and INTs? LOL, 3 of the 4 stats you posted are basically the same. And again, they didnt play on the same team, with the same players, against the same opponents. When numbers are this close you have to just give it up already, theyre not miles off from each other. No matter how manytimes you look at TD/INT rates Again, youre missing the point. What Rivers is has nothing to do with Eli making the HOF Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NYs Stepchild Posted July 23, 2019 Share Posted July 23, 2019 11 minutes ago, Jet Nut said: Cooooool, cherry pick numbers, ignore others and make this a Rivers vs Eli competition. How many different ways can you compare their TDs and INTs? LOL, 3 of the 4 stats you posted are basically the same. Again, youre missing the point. What Rivers is has nothing to do with Eli making the HOF Completion % TD% Int% Yards per attempt. Cherry picked? Those are all of the categories. What other category could you ask for? My original post asked would you trade Eli for Philip Rivers, Shawn Merriman, Nate Kaeding, and Roman Oben? You said you wouldn't. That's what this is about Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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