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Takeaways from NY Jets Mini Camp


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17 hours ago, FidelioJet said:

OMG - this love of, and faith in, Gase is entirely unwarranted, unearned and ridiculous.

There's certainly reason to be positive about the direction of the franchise but the love affair with Gase is absurd.  He's being treated as if he wasn't just fired from the lowly Dolphins - and that he didn't put up bottom 5 offenses his entire three years as HC.

Love the direction of the team but let's not pretend like we just hired Vince Lombardi.

Yes, this was completely over the top: 

Quote

Coach Adam Gase knows what he wants. He has a clear vision of the offense he wants to run and the type of players he wants in his locker room. Is it the right vision? We'll find out. This much I can tell you: The man has moxie, and that's a good thing. Confidence is contagious, especially from a leadership position. Folks in the building say Gase seems happier and more relaxed now that he has a comfort level with his GM. Clearly, that didn't exist with Maccagnan.

Thank goodness you're here to temper our enthusiasm. 

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15 hours ago, Jet Nut said:

Really based on what?  Your total trash campaign? 

Heres an exercise for you since this is your new whine.  Look up all the articles about Gase being fired and ask yourself why they all start off the same way, with the author shocked and surprised.  

Another thread, another hatchet job by FidelioJet

I do get your passion and I'm right there with you on most fronts - I'm leaving the Gase stuff mostly alone at this point -but since the Douglas hiring the Gase love-fest has gotten out of control around here.  I had to say something.

Wanna take a wait and see approach...sure.  Love the guy because he was a good OC with Peyton Manning...I guess.  But he was not a successful HC - there's no way to argue that he was - and making it out like this hire was some type of Coup is just silly.

That's all I'm saying.  

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21 minutes ago, FidelioJet said:

I do get your passion and I'm right there with you on most fronts - I'm leaving the Gase stuff mostly alone at this point -but since the Douglas hiring the Gase love-fest has gotten out of control around here.  I had to say something.

Wanna take a wait and see approach...sure.  Love the guy because he was a good OC with Peyton Manning...I guess.  But he was not a successful HC - there's no way to argue that he was - and making it out like this hire was some type of Coup is just silly.

That's all I'm saying.  

I totally agree with some of this be post.  Wait and see approach is fine.  That's true.  Then it skids off.  You've called him a failure.  That he sucks.  His offense sucked.  His players all hate him.  He was fired in Miami. You go on and on about coaching a team without its QB as proof. 

You won't even admit he was a top OC who was and still is considered a top O mind.  And really, he was as only good with mankind, you guess?  When Manning has his best season, ever?  When the team O was a record setting O?  and ignore Tebow, Cutler & a healthy Tannehill

Nothing about any of your posts over the months comes close to being fair or a wait and see approach. Thats not close to being true

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7 hours ago, jack48 said:

Bill Belichick Cleveland

So you can name 1 NFL HC who was fired at his first stop and went on to have success at his next stop.  Here's a few more to help your side of the argument:  Tony Dungy, Pete Carroll, Tom Coughlin, Andy Reid.

Now, here's a list of coaches in the last 2 decades who were fired at their first stop and went on to fail at their 2nd stop:

  • George Seifert (SF, CAR)
  • Dennis Erickson (SEA, SF)
  • Dave Wannstedt (CHI, MIA)
  • Jim E. Mora (NO, IND)
  • Dom Capers (CAR, HOU)
  • Steve Mariucci (SF, DET)
  • Herm Edwards (NYJ, KC)
  • Dennis Green (MIN, AZ)
  • Eric Mangini (NYJ, CLE)
  • Romeo Crennel (CLE, KC)
  • Jim L. Mora (ATL, SEA)
  • Chan Gailey (DAL, BUF)
  • Rex Ryan (NYJ, BUF)
  • Norv Turner (OAK, SD)
  • Mike Shanahan (DEN, WAS)
  • Mike Mularkey (JAX, TEN)
  • Jeff Fisher (TEN, STL)
  • Ken Whisenhunt (AZ, TEN)
  • Jim Caldwell (IND, DET)
  • Lovie Smith (CHI, TB)
  • Chip Kelly (PHI, SF)
  • Jack Del Rio (JAX, OAK)
  • Hue Jackson (OAK, CLE)

And here's some coaches in the last two decades who never got a 2nd chance, for good reasons:

  • Dave McGinnis (AZ)
  • Dick LeBeau (CIN)
  • Bill Callahan (OAK)
  • Jim Fassel (NYG)
  • Mike Tice (MIN)
  • Butch Davis (CLE)
  • Mike Sherman (GB)
  • Mike Martz (STL)
  • Jim Haslett (NO)
  • Scott Linehan (STL)
  • Gregg Williams (BUF)
  • Tom Cable (OAK)
  • Bobby Petrino (ATL)
  • Rod Marinelli (DET)
  • Steve Spagnuolo (STL)
  • Dennis Allen (OAK)
  • Todd Haley (KC)
  • Lane Kiffin (OAK)
  • Mike Nolan (SF)
  • Jim Zorn (WAS)
  • Mike Singletary (SF)
  • Brad Childress (MIN)
  • Raheem Morris (TB)
  • Josh McDaniels (DEN)
  • Jim Tomsula (SF)
  • Greg Schiano (TB)
  • Leslie Frazier (MIN)
  • Rob Chudzinski (CLE)
  • Mike Munchak (TEN)
  • Jim Schwartz (DET)
  • Jim Harbaugh (SF)
  • Mike Pettine (CLE)
  • Gus Bradley (JAX)
  • Mike McCoy (SD)
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56 minutes ago, Lith said:

ST play is not jsut about returning.  He was effective as an ST gunner last season.  Second on the team with 9 ST tackles.  Brant Boyer also had good things to say about Cannon last week in his presser.  I agree that he is still a longshot, but until listening to Boyer last week, I assumed he had no shot.

Good point.  Dortch probably too small to do anything but return on special teams.

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15 minutes ago, Jetsfan80 said:

So you can name 1 NFL HC who was fired at his first stop and went on to have success at his next stop.  Here's a few more to help your side of the argument:  Tony Dungy, Pete Carroll, Tom Coughlin, Andy Reid.

Now, here's a list of coaches in the last 2 decades who were fired at their first stop and went on to fail at their 2nd stop:

  • George Seifert (SF, CAR)
  • Dennis Erickson (SEA, SF)
  • Dave Wannstedt (CHI, MIA)
  • Jim E. Mora (NO, IND)
  • Dom Capers (CAR, HOU)
  • Steve Mariucci (SF, DET)
  • Herm Edwards (NYJ, KC)
  • Dennis Green (MIN, AZ)
  • Eric Mangini (NYJ, CLE)
  • Romeo Crennel (CLE, KC)
  • Jim L. Mora (ATL, SEA)
  • Chan Gailey (DAL, BUF)
  • Rex Ryan (NYJ, BUF)
  • Norv Turner (OAK, SD)
  • Mike Shanahan (DEN, WAS)
  • Mike Mularkey (JAX, TEN)
  • Jeff Fisher (TEN, STL)
  • Ken Whisenhunt (AZ, TEN)
  • Jim Caldwell (IND, DET)
  • Lovie Smith (CHI, TB)
  • Chip Kelly (PHI, SF)
  • Jack Del Rio (JAX, OAK)
  • Hue Jackson (OAK, CLE)

And here's some coaches in the last two decades who never got a 2nd chance, for good reasons:

  • Dave McGinnis (AZ)
  • Dick LeBeau (CIN)
  • Bill Callahan (OAK)
  • Jim Fassel (NYG)
  • Mike Tice (MIN)
  • Butch Davis (CLE)
  • Mike Sherman (GB)
  • Mike Martz (STL)
  • Jim Haslett (NO)
  • Scott Linehan (STL)
  • Gregg Williams (BUF)
  • Tom Cable (OAK)
  • Bobby Petrino (ATL)
  • Rod Marinelli (DET)
  • Steve Spagnuolo (STL)
  • Dennis Allen (OAK)
  • Todd Haley (KC)
  • Lane Kiffin (OAK)
  • Mike Nolan (SF)
  • Jim Zorn (WAS)
  • Mike Singletary (SF)
  • Brad Childress (MIN)
  • Raheem Morris (TB)
  • Josh McDaniels (DEN)
  • Jim Tomsula (SF)
  • Greg Schiano (TB)
  • Leslie Frazier (MIN)
  • Rob Chudzinski (CLE)
  • Mike Munchak (TEN)
  • Jim Schwartz (DET)
  • Jim Harbaugh (SF)
  • Mike Pettine (CLE)
  • Gus Bradley (JAX)
  • Mike McCoy (SD)

Peter Principle at its most vicious. I like Gase.  And you know, there are a lot of good coaches on your first list.

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46 minutes ago, jack48 said:

Peter Principle at its most vicious. I like Gase.  And you know, there are a lot of good coaches on your first list. 

Tell the teams who got sloppy seconds that. 

And are you suggesting Gase is immune to the peter principle?  Dude has the reputation of being a great offensive mind but who doesn't have the personality for the job.  Sounds like a guy who could end up a QB Coach/OC the rest of his career if he fails here. 

I'm more than willing to give him a shot, and already love the guy for getting us rid of Macc and bringing in what appears to be a respectable GM.  But let's not act like he isn't exactly the type of retread HC (like the ones I listed) that fails at his first stop then fails again at his second. 

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22 minutes ago, Jetsfan80 said:

Tell the teams who got sloppy seconds that. 

And are you suggesting Gase is immune to the peter principle?  Dude has the reputation of being a great offensive mind but who doesn't have the personality for the job.  Sounds like a guy who could end up a QB Coach/OC the rest of his career if he fails here. 

I'm more than willing to give him a shot, and already love the guy for getting us rid of Macc and bringing in what appears to be a respectable GM.  But let's not act like he isn't exactly the type of retread HC (like the ones I listed) that fails at his first stop then fails again at his second. 

I dont know anything about his reputation of not having a personality for the job.  And my point was that BB, and these other guys, were viewed much the same way at the time.. BB has a personality?

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1 hour ago, jack48 said:

I dont know anything about his reputation of not having a personality for the job.  And my point was that BB, and these other guys, were viewed much the same way at the time.. BB has a personality?

And my point was that for every Belichick, there's plenty of Herm Edwards', Ken Whisenhunt's and Jack Del Rio's.  Counting on Gase to succeed because Belichick did in his 2nd stop is a fool's errand. 

As for personality, it doesn't matter unless it's one that causes player to tune you out.  Sort of like how players tuned Mangini out in Cleveland because he tried to be a Belichick.  You have to earn respect in this league. 

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7 hours ago, Bruce Harper said:

Dortch and the kid from BC are both in the same ballpark, if I recall correctly.  And Dortch plays faster on film.

Edit:  I didn't trust my memory so I looked at it.  Dortch is a reported 4.49 at his pro day to Cannon's reported 4.4 but as I mentioned, Dortch is extremely shifty, has good hands and plays very fast.   Jeff Smith's reported 4.34 is faster than Cannon's. 

Maybe I overstated it but if he is going to make the team as a returner he is going to have to catch the ball and a guy who can return punts in addition to kickoffs brings more versatility to the team.  When we drafted Cannon I wasn't happy to find that he hadn't returned punts in college.  Not a good sign.

 I watched a lot of ACC football and Dortch is 10,000 times the player that Jeff Smith was in college. 

The reason I think Dortch is so valuable is how successful he was at returning punts.  Thats not something that is easily learned, and he is coming in having excelled at it over a large sample size.  I also hope we dont focus on kick returning at all, as with the new rules you could argue taking a touchback on every single kickoff.

I think we will all be pleasantly surprised with Dortch as a player and I see him making the team

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 I watched a lot of ACC football and Dortch is 10,000 times the player that Jeff Smith was in college. 
The reason I think Dortch is so valuable is how successful he was at returning punts.  Thats not something that is easily learned, and he is coming in having excelled at it over a large sample size.  I also hope we dont focus on kick returning at all, as with the new rules you could argue taking a touchback on every single kickoff.
I think we will all be pleasantly surprised with Dortch as a player and I see him making the team


I was just talking about speed. Agreed that Dortch is a better player.


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14 hours ago, johnnysd said:

Im not the greatest Gase fan but I am not sure "failure" is the right label for what happened in Miami. He generally fielded competitive teams with very little talent at the QB position. I would say more like incomplete.

 

Competitive is not really what I’m looking for in a head coach. And I also would describe being outscored by opponents by over 400 points in 3 seasons as competitive. He’s got more to prove than anyone currently employed by the Jets. 

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13 minutes ago, CrazyCarl40 said:

Competitive is not really what I’m looking for in a head coach. And I also would describe being outscored by opponents by over 400 points in 3 seasons as competitive. He’s got more to prove than anyone currently employed by the Jets. 

The Dolphins were outscored by over 400 points the past 3 seasons??????

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1 hour ago, CrazyCarl40 said:

Competitive is not really what I’m looking for in a head coach. And I also would describe being outscored by opponents by over 400 points in 3 seasons as competitive. He’s got more to prove than anyone currently employed by the Jets. 

 

49 minutes ago, Scott Dierking said:

The Dolphins were outscored by over 400 points the past 3 seasons??????

Over the last 3 seasons  (approximately)

-250 in points 

-2700 in yards

-200 in first downs

 

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3 hours ago, Scott Dierking said:

The Dolphins were outscored by over 400 points the past 3 seasons??????

 

2 hours ago, New York Mick said:

 

Over the last 3 seasons  (approximately)

-250 in points 

-2700 in yards

-200 in first downs

 

Twitter let me down again! But yes -243 in point differential. Negative in point differential in all three seasons including the playoff year. 

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I wasn't happy with the Gase hiring simply because when a HC is fired and goes directly to another team the next year it's usually a disaster. Sure there are some exceptions but for the most part it doesn't usually work out so well.

I will give Gase the benefit of the doubt though and will wait to see how he is in game situations and if he adjust on the fly.

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52 minutes ago, JetFaninMI said:

I wasn't happy with the Gase hiring simply because when a HC is fired and goes directly to another team the next year it's usually a disaster. Sure there are some exceptions but for the most part it doesn't usually work out so well.

I will give Gase the benefit of the doubt though and will wait to see how he is in game situations and if he adjust on the fly.

I think one of the biggest changes he made right away is that he has a FAR superior staff top to bottom than he did in Miami. And dramatically better than Bowles staff. Think about this, when people wanted Bowles fired mid season there was no reasonable mid-season replacement, on the current staff there may be as many as 5 coaches that could fill that role. Staff is better top to bottom and better than Miami's staff by a large margin.

Second Miami just had nothing at QB. There was a video posted here a while ago analyzing Tannehill and just how completely AWFUL he was and even rudimentary reads and decisions and how he just kept dumping off to the outlet despite receivers being open downfield consistently. And he was their best QB, and Gase largely won with him. Now Gase has Darnold who not only does not have that issues but may need to learn to check down MORE, especially since he will be checking down to Leveon Bell.  

Third, despite the incompetence of Mac our roster is clearly better than Miami's. We still have some big holes to compensate for in the secondary and OL, but we are definitely stout up the middle on defense, and if Q and Crowder stay healthy we are better at playmakers (still lots to do) than we were last year, and notably better than the last 4 games when we were injury depleted at WR and OL, and yet Darnold made play after play and was arguably the best QB in football.

I am not drinking the kool aid, it could all still go very wrong, but there are reasons to believe that Gase and the Jets will perform better than the Miami version.

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On 6/17/2019 at 1:21 PM, Jetsfan80 said:

So you can name 1 NFL HC who was fired at his first stop and went on to have success at his next stop.  Here's a few more to help your side of the argument:  Tony Dungy, Pete Carroll, Tom Coughlin, Andy Reid.

The thing that makes this list all the more interesting is that of those 4, 3 were considered to be very successful with their first teams, but eventually overstayed their welcomes (i.e., didn't get a ring).  Coughlin perhaps didn't have the same level of success of Dungy or Reid, but also was the first coach of a friggin' expansion team.  Carroll is really the only outlier there, and it took until his 3rd shot nearly 20 years later, with a decade out of the NFL, before he found success.

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18 hours ago, BCJet said:

 I watched a lot of ACC football and Dortch is 10,000 times the player that Jeff Smith was in college. 

The reason I think Dortch is so valuable is how successful he was at returning punts.  Thats not something that is easily learned, and he is coming in having excelled at it over a large sample size.  I also hope we dont focus on kick returning at all, as with the new rules you could argue taking a touchback on every single kickoff.

I think we will all be pleasantly surprised with Dortch as a player and I see him making the team

That's not hard.  Smith was basically a zero in college.  Unless you are British Columbia Jet, you probably know better than us.  He is a gadget type guy that did have a very high ratio of TDs per touch.  He is an off the charts athlete.  Dortch seems decent enough, but he is teeny tiny.  Like Jalen Saunders tiny. They are both lottery tickets with traits that could translate.

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3 hours ago, JetFaninMI said:

I wasn't happy with the Gase hiring simply because when a HC is fired and goes directly to another team the next year it's usually a disaster. Sure there are some exceptions but for the most part it doesn't usually work out so well.

I will give Gase the benefit of the doubt though and will wait to see how he is in game situations and if he adjust on the fly.

My thoughts exactly, and the #1 reason that I despised the hire at the time it was made.  The success of failed retread coaches is not particularly high overall, but it's pretty much non-existent when a guy is immediately hired.  The new team is basically validating everything that coach has done, and making sure he has neither the time nor motivation to learn and improve.

With that said, I'm with you at this point that what's done is done, so might as well give him a shot and hope for the best.

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