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NFL.com's Elliot Harrison: Top 25 QB's of All-Time

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1 hour ago, HessStation said:

Because it’s a losing battle.

It's a losing battle because even if you provide all the evidence in the world (which many do to combat his horrifically wrong opinions), he changes the argument or moves the goalposts. 

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22 minutes ago, #27TheDominator said:

I love it when "people" throw around playoff appearances by the Browns before Belichick got there.   What they did under Schottenheimer is pretty irrelevant.  The year before Belichick got there, the Browns had the worse point differential in the teams history at that point - going back to the 40's.  -234.  Hell, they only had 1 worse team since, and the point diff was worse than the recent 0-16 and 2-15 teams. They ******* sucked.  

Ok, he spent 5 years in Cleveland with 4 losing seasons.  Is that relevant?  Was 5 years enough to turn a franchise around?  In the same era Parcells took over a far worse pats franchise and they were in the playoffs year 2 and SB year 4.  Gibbs won a SB year 2, Walsh year 3, The Steelers were pathetic before Chuck Noll and by year 4 they were on their way to greatness.  Ditka won a SB year 4, Parcells with NYG by year 4, Jimmy Johnson by year 4 in Dallas.

And all of the great coaches that had real opportunities with other QBs all succeeded even without all time greats.  BB has only had success with the greatest QB of all time.

 

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13 minutes ago, Jetsfan80 said:

It's a losing battle because even if you provide all the evidence in the world (which many do to combat his horrifically wrong opinions), he changes the argument or moves the goalposts. 

Your "evidence" consists of silly cheating accusations

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On 7/3/2019 at 10:43 AM, Jetsfan80 said:

 

I can name several reasons why Luckman still holds some Bears QB records:

  • Jonathan Quinn
  • Cade McNown
  • Todd Collins
  • Rick Mirer
  • Craig Krenzel
  • Mark Sanchez
  • Caleb Hanie
  • Chad Hutchinson
  • Jason Campbell
  • Jimmy Clausen
  • Matt Barkley
  • Shane Matthews
  • Brian Hoyer
  • Brian Griese
  • Josh McCown
  • Mike Tomczak
  • Rex Grossman
  • Kyle Orton
  • Mike Glennon
  • Jay Cutler

Maybe Trubisky can erase a lot of those bad QB memories. 

you left off bobby douglass.

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11 minutes ago, nyjunc said:

Ok, he spent 5 years in Cleveland with 4 losing seasons.  Is that relevant?  Was 5 years enough to turn a franchise around?  In the same era Parcells took over a far worse pats franchise and they were in the playoffs year 2 and SB year 4.  Gibbs won a SB year 2, Walsh year 3, The Steelers were pathetic before Chuck Noll and by year 4 they were on their way to greatness.  Ditka won a SB year 4, Parcells with NYG by year 4, Jimmy Johnson by year 4 in Dallas.

And all of the great coaches that had real opportunities with other QBs all succeeded even without all time greats.  BB has only had success with the greatest QB of all time.

 

8th worst point differential in history.   Bill Parcells made the playoffs with the Pats, but he still has never won a single playoff game without Bill Belichick on his staff.  Not one.  Even Ditka has done that. 

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1 hour ago, nyjunc said:

I'm taking Brady and I'm winning.  You can have the stat guys like Peyton or favre.

Belichick took over a Cleveland franchise that was used to winning (had been to 3 AFC championship games in 5 years) and inherited a young, pro bowl QB.  In NE he inherited a core that won 2 division titles, made playoffs 3 times in previous 4 seasons and had a PB QB in his prime.  He had 4 losing seasons in 5 years in Cleveland, he was 5-13 in NE until Brady took over.

It’s not worth arguing with you bc you have valid points. I just consider the best the guy I’m taking first overall based on the guy, not his career situation, surrounding team, head coach/front office/franchise. It’s just a matter of opinion. Brady and Montana would be down the list.

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1 hour ago, CTM said:

Yep, pre 2007 (and post him supposedly taping opponents practices) Brady was more akin to Jeter. Since 2007 his numbers have been fantastic and hes lead the top 2 offenses in FO's best offenses of the top 30 years (07 and 10) , 4 of the top 12 and tied with Manning and Young for most in top 30

 

4  - Peyton Manning (IND '04, '00, '06, DEN '13)

4 - Tom Brady (NE '07, '10, '11, '12)

4 - Steve Young (SF '92, '93, '98, '94)

3 - Troy Aikman (DAL '95, '92, '93)

3 - Trent Green (KC '02, '03, '04)

Young gets little play in discussions for greatest of all time. For whatever reason, the whole 1 SB thing holds him back far more than it holds a guy like Aaron Rodgers back, except that Steve was putting up Aaron numbers back in early 90's. The only other criticism is that he played with Rice, except that Montana and Brady don't lose points for playing with Rice and Moss+Gronk, respectively.

I followed Steve's time with the 49ers more closely than most. He's a local hero for people from my town. I may be biased, but he definitely belongs in the discussion. He's never going to go 1 or 2 for the same reasons that Brees and Rodgers won't go 1 or 2, but he's closer to the top than most people would put him.

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32 minutes ago, #27TheDominator said:

8th worst point differential in history.   Bill Parcells made the playoffs with the Pats, but he still has never won a single playoff game without Bill Belichick on his staff.  Not one.  Even Ditka has done that. 

I guess if Bill Belichick was on his staff Romo wouldn't have dropped that ball on the field goal attempt to win it in Seattle?  Parcells took over the dregs of the league, just getting those teams to the playoffs was an incredible accomplishment.

He made SBs with Phil Simms, Jeff hostetler and Drew Bledsoe.  BB has 1 career playoff win (WC Rd at home) without Brady.  

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17 minutes ago, greenwichjetfan said:

Young gets little play in discussions for greatest of all time. For whatever reason, the whole 1 SB thing holds him back far more than it holds a guy like Aaron Rodgers back, except that Steve was putting up Aaron numbers back in early 90's. The only other criticism is that he played with Rice, except that Montana and Brady don't lose points for playing with Rice and Moss+Gronk, respectively.

I followed Steve's time with the 49ers more closely than most. He's a local hero for people from my town. I may be biased, but he definitely belongs in the discussion. He's never going to go 1 or 2 for the same reasons that Brees and Rodgers won't go 1 or 2, but he's closer to the top than most people would put him.

Young was handed the keys to a dynasty, he managed to win just one and only won that because of the Jerry Jones -Jimmy Johnson divorce

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40 minutes ago, HessStation said:

It’s not worth arguing with you bc you have valid points. I just consider the best the guy I’m taking first overall based on the guy, not his career situation, surrounding team, head coach/front office/franchise. It’s just a matter of opinion. Brady and Montana would be down the list.

You are entitled to your opinion, I'm not trying to dismiss it.  I'm just stating mine, I have watched Brady torture us for almost 2 decades.  He's the best I have ever seen play and I think because we hate him so much a lot of our fanbase underrates him.

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2 hours ago, greenwichjetfan said:

Young gets little play in discussions for greatest of all time. For whatever reason, the whole 1 SB thing holds him back far more than it holds a guy like Aaron Rodgers back, except that Steve was putting up Aaron numbers back in early 90's. The only other criticism is that he played with Rice, except that Montana and Brady don't lose points for playing with Rice and Moss+Gronk, respectively.

I followed Steve's time with the 49ers more closely than most. He's a local hero for people from my town. I may be biased, but he definitely belongs in the discussion. He's never going to go 1 or 2 for the same reasons that Brees and Rodgers won't go 1 or 2, but he's closer to the top than most people would put him. 

 

I think people took it as confirmation that the Niners system was more important than the QB.  But that's still BS.  By the time Young took over, other teams had started to adopt the WCO and were learning how to combat it on defense.  Meanwhile, that SB run by Young was arguably the greatest run of playoff performances in NFL history before or since. 

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34 minutes ago, Jetsfan80 said:

 

I think people took it as confirmation that the Niners system was more important than the QB.  But that's still BS.  By the time Young took over, other teams had started to adopt the WCO and were learning how to combat it on defense.  Meanwhile, that SB run by Young was arguably the greatest run of playoff performances in NFL history before or since. 

He had an all time great SB throwing 6 TDs against an overmatched opponent that was probably the worst SB team of all time but in the 2 NFC playoff games combined he threw for a total of 298 yards with 3 TDs.  He was much better than the numbers suggest especially in that title game when Dallas was coming back and he slammed the door but I wouldn't call his postseason the best of all time.  I'm not sure it's top 10.

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25 minutes ago, Jetsfan80 said:

I think people took it as confirmation that the Niners system was more important than the QB.  But that's still BS.  By the time Young took over, other teams had started to adopt the WCO and were learning how to combat it on defense.  Meanwhile, that SB run by Young was arguably the greatest run of playoff performances in NFL history before or since. 

Exactly. Teams were already stopping the WCO back in '85, '86, '87 when Montana and the 49ers went one and done in the playoffs 3 straight years. By the time Young took over, Walsh had already coached his final game ever in the NFL.

For anyone basing Young's success on the system, please explain why Young's ridiculous passing efficiency eclipses Montana's in the same system and over the same amount of seasons (both played 13 seasons for the 49ers)? Young won more games started than Montana, had better Y/A, AY/A, TD%, INT%, & TD:INT% numbers - and all of this was with older, aging players that were not as good as the ones Montana played with in the 80s. Lastly, I haven't even commented on his rushing numbers which made him a premier dual-threat QB. And once again, those numbers from the early 90s still hold up against today's Madden QB numbers.

But enough from me. I'm a nobody. I'll leave it to these guys instead:

  • Quote

     

    So, how great was Steve Young?

    Well, Joe Montana, whom many people regard as the greatest passer in National Football League history, called Young ''the greatest passer I've ever seen.'' Fran Tarkenton, whom many regard as the greatest running quarterback in NFL  history, calls Young ''the greatest running quarterback I've ever seen.'' Bill Walsh, the coach who brought Young to the San Francisco 49ers, calls him ''the best, most accurate passer I've ever seen.'' Link

     

 

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56 minutes ago, greenwichjetfan said:

Exactly. Teams were already stopping the WCO back in '85, '86, '87 when Montana and the 49ers went one and done in the playoffs 3 straight years. By the time Young took over, Walsh had already coached his final game ever in the NFL.

For anyone basing Young's success on the system, please explain why Young's ridiculous passing efficiency eclipses Montana's in the same system and over the same amount of seasons (both played 13 seasons for the 49ers)? Young won more games started than Montana, had better Y/A, AY/A, TD%, INT%, & TD:INT% numbers - and all of this was with older, aging players that were not as good as the ones Montana played with in the 80s. Lastly, I haven't even commented on his rushing numbers which made him a premier dual-threat QB. And once again, those numbers from the early 90s still hold up against today's Madden QB numbers.

But enough from me. I'm a nobody. I'll leave it to these guys instead:

  •  

 

Steve young became the starter in 1991 with Jerry Rice in his prime.  Montana got him was he was young and a little raw.  Young got the best years of rice and young was consistenty surrounded with big time talent.  SF was the equal of Dallas yet Dallas always beat them because young came up small in so many big games until 1994.  

Montana's record as a starter  in SF 100-39, Young 91-33. Similar win %.  In postseason:

Montana 16-7, 4 SBs, 6 conf title games

Young 14-8, 1 SB, 3 conf title games

 

And we probably don't want to talk about his time in Tampa Bay, right?

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1 hour ago, nyjunc said:

Steve young became the starter in 1991 with Jerry Rice in his prime.  Montana got him was he was young and a little raw.  Young got the best years of rice and young was consistenty surrounded with big time talent.  SF was the equal of Dallas yet Dallas always beat them because young came up small in so many big games until 1994.  

Montana's record as a starter  in SF 100-39, Young 91-33. Similar win %.  In postseason:

Montana 16-7, 4 SBs, 6 conf title games

Young 14-8, 1 SB, 3 conf title games

 

And we probably don't want to talk about his time in Tampa Bay, right?

Did you seriously just suggest that Steve Young was lucky because he got a WR that was 29?  Poor Joe Montana was stuck with him from ages 23-28?  SMH.

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The list is striking how many of these guys were near gets/misses for the Jets or how they've tortured the Jets org.

 

Peyton - didn't come out when we had #1 pick

Marino - we all know we passed for Kenny O

Favre- we didn't have a first b/c of Rob Moore supplemental and ATL took him one pick ahead of us

R. Wilson - Bradway was standing on the table for the guy and we passed

 

Hopefully the eternal era of woulda/coulda's is over with Sam Darnold at the helm

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7 hours ago, greenwichjetfan said:

Young gets little play in discussions for greatest of all time. For whatever reason, the whole 1 SB thing holds him back far more than it holds a guy like Aaron Rodgers back, except that Steve was putting up Aaron numbers back in early 90's. The only other criticism is that he played with Rice, except that Montana and Brady don't lose points for playing with Rice and Moss+Gronk, respectively.

I followed Steve's time with the 49ers more closely than most. He's a local hero for people from my town. I may be biased, but he definitely belongs in the discussion. He's never going to go 1 or 2 for the same reasons that Brees and Rodgers won't go 1 or 2, but he's closer to the top than most people would put him.

He put up better #'s than Montana and was his era's Aaron Rodgers. His existance imo diminishes Montana's accomplishments, there just is no analog for Montana/Young with Brady, Elway, Marino, Manning etc..

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14 hours ago, #27TheDominator said:

Did you seriously just suggest that Steve Young was lucky because he got a WR that was 29?  Poor Joe Montana was stuck with him from ages 23-28?  SMH.

Jerry Rice was in his prime when he got him, that man played at a high level into his 40s.  Young got the best years out of him, to suggest he got an old, washed up version is laughable.

Rice was a rookie who couldn't catch in 1985, he became Rice like in 1986.  Joe would have 5 seasons from 86-90 with that Rice but Joe started 60 games in that 5 year stretch out of a possible 80, he missed more than a seasons worth of games.

Steve young was a great numbers QB, he was not Joe Montana.

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2 minutes ago, nyjunc said:

Jerry Rice was in his prime when he got him, that man played at a high level into his 40s.  Young got the best years out of him, to suggest he got an old, washed up version is laughable.

Rice was a rookie who couldn't catch in 1985, he became Rice like in 1986.  Joe would have 5 seasons from 86-90 with that Rice but Joe started 60 games in that 5 year stretch out of a possible 80, he missed more than a seasons worth of games.

Steve young was a great numbers QB, he was not Joe Montana.

You don't think that Young helped Rice put up those numbers after his peak physical age?  I never said Rice was washed up, but the idea that he was better into his late 30's than mid-20's is laughable.  Rice also missed almost an entire year and Young did pretty well, though he did have JJ Stokes and T.O. 

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5 minutes ago, #27TheDominator said:

You don't think that Young helped Rice put up those numbers after his peak physical age?  I never said Rice was washed up, but the idea that he was better into his late 30's than mid-20's is laughable.  Rice also missed almost an entire year and Young did pretty well, though he did have JJ Stokes and T.O. 

Of course he did, young was a great QB.  My point was disputing the notion that Steve had old, washed up players around him.  He had great talent every game he played for that franchise.  Rice was at his peak, he had Brent Jones, Ricky watters, ... The only guy kind of over the hill was John Taylor but Taylor was never great.  As these guys got older or left via FA they brought in TO, Stokes(though he was a disappointment), Hearst, Floyd(not a weapon in pass game but helped those Is) .  They even had Ed McCaffrey for a year but they didn't realize what they had.

 

Rice was at his peak in the early to mid 90s. 

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27 minutes ago, nyjunc said:

Of course he did, young was a great QB.  My point was disputing the notion that Steve had old, washed up players around him.  He had great talent every game he played for that franchise.  Rice was at his peak, he had Brent Jones, Ricky watters, ... The only guy kind of over the hill was John Taylor but Taylor was never great.  As these guys got older or left via FA they brought in TO, Stokes(though he was a disappointment), Hearst, Floyd(not a weapon in pass game but helped those Is) .  They even had Ed McCaffrey for a year but they didn't realize what they had.

 

Rice was at his peak in the early to mid 90s. 

You said Jerry Rice couldn't catch in 1985.  That is hysterical.  The guy was setting records in college.  

Rice was at his peak in 1986.  The fact that he kept it up is a testament to his work ethic and ability, but he wasn't getting and bigger or faster. 

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5 minutes ago, #27TheDominator said:

You said Jerry Rice couldn't catch in 1985.  That is hysterical.  The guy was setting records in college.  

Rice was at his peak in 1986.  The fact that he kept it up is a testament to his work ethic and ability, but he wasn't getting and bigger or faster. 

Rice struggled with drops in his rookie year.

https://www.footballoutsiders.com/walkthrough/2006/too-deep-zone-jerry-rice-rookie-bust

Rice was great by year 2 but his peak was with Young.  He was in his prime, had time of experience and kept working to get better.  

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14 minutes ago, nyjunc said:

Rice struggled with drops in his rookie year.

https://www.footballoutsiders.com/walkthrough/2006/too-deep-zone-jerry-rice-rookie-bust

Rice was great by year 2 but his peak was with Young.  He was in his prime, had time of experience and kept working to get better.  

Yeah.  Doesn't matter.  I keep telling my wife "I have time of experience and keep working to get better."  She keeps telling me "you're not 27 anymore." 

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32 minutes ago, #27TheDominator said:

Yeah.  Doesn't matter.  I keep telling my wife "I have time of experience and keep working to get better."  She keeps telling me "you're not 27 anymore." 

That's great but there's proof he kept getting better.  Even if you disagree with that I think we can agree he was still in his prime and still the best WR in football by a wide margin.

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1 minute ago, nyjunc said:

That's great but there's proof he kept getting better.  Even if you disagree with that I think we can agree he was still in his prime and still the best WR in football by a wide margin.

His prime was very long, but there is no proof.  His volume went up and his QB had a better arm.  Highest ypc, most TDs all came on his rookie deal.  YPC will drop with volume, but TDs?  His top 3 TD seasons all came in his first 5 years.  

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16 hours ago, #27TheDominator said:

Did you seriously just suggest that Steve Young was lucky because he got a WR that was 29?  Poor Joe Montana was stuck with him from ages 23-28?  SMH.

Yea I was going to respond to that nonsense but I thought better of it.

Joe played with a guy from 23-28, Steve plays with same guy from 29-38. There were a few more guys on the teams that Montana had as well, but again, I can’t be bothered with nyjunk.

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4 hours ago, greenwichjetfan said:

Yea I was going to respond to that nonsense but I thought better of it.

Joe played with a guy from 23-28, Steve plays with same guy from 29-38. There were a few more guys on the teams that Montana had as well, but again, I can’t be bothered with nyjunk.

You can't be bothered because you can't keep up.  Jerry Rice played longer with Young, he had a very long stretch of his career at or near the top of WRs.  To suggest young got a lesser version of Rice is either being clueless or intentionally trying to mislead.

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1 hour ago, nyjunc said:

You can't be bothered because you can't keep up.  Jerry Rice played longer with Young, he had a very long stretch of his career at or near the top of WRs.  To suggest young got a lesser version of Rice is either being clueless or intentionally trying to mislead.

Nowhere near as clueless as suggesting that Montana got a lesser version of Rice.  That lucky Rich Gannon!

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17 minutes ago, #27TheDominator said:

Nowhere near as clueless as suggesting that Montana got a lesser version of Rice.  That lucky Rich Gannon!

Montana had. Great version of Rice for 60 starts, young had ride in his prime for far longer. 

Steve young was handed the keys to a dynasty and won just one SB thanks to the Jimmy Johnson mess in Dallas.  If Jimmy doesn't leave Steve doesn't have any SBs as a starter but he had great numbers!  

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10 minutes ago, nyjunc said:

Montana had. Great version of Rice for 60 starts, young had ride in his prime for far longer. 

Steve young was handed the keys to a dynasty and won just one SB thanks to the Jimmy Johnson mess in Dallas.  If Jimmy doesn't leave Steve doesn't have any SBs as a starter but he had great numbers!  

I won't post on this again, but my last word is that there is no world where an NFL football player spends more of his prime over 30 than under. 

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2 minutes ago, #27TheDominator said:

I won't post on this again, but my last word is that there is no world where an NFL football player spends more of his prime over 30 than under. 

Jerry Rice was not an ordinary player.  He was old for a rookie at 23, became great as a second year player at 24.  From his second year through 1990 Montana only had 60 starts with him- less than 4 seasons.

Jerry's numbers went down significantly in 1991 and 1992 as Steve was developing into a great QB (Steve was great in 92).  Jerry's numbers then went through the roof the next 3 years so how did his numbers go down at age 29 and 30 then go up 31-33?

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I like how people debate with "ifs" concept.

You cant change what team a player is on...and how does one pick Manning when he historical was never good in the playoffs as he was in a regular season game..

Even playing the "if" game..on a BB team he still chokes being he was horrible on the "offensive" side of the ball.

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And how can Rodgers be better when he cant stay healthy and the same nfc teams he doesnt beat in the nfc championship game..Brady does? 

So we praise the QBs like Rodgers n Manning for being great but make excuses for them when its time to put them up against other QBs??

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My top five would be:

1) Brady

2) Montana

3) Manning

4) Marino

5) Elway

(Brees just missed the cut)

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I’ll start in the 70s with my list.

Brady

Montana

Marino

Staubach

Elway

Peyton Manning is to QBs what Andy Reid is to HCs. Thankfully he finally got a ring. I can’t remember any other QB who played for such great teams, put up anywhere close to the regular season numbers, only to have the epic playoff fails he did.

Think what his reputation would’ve been without that one championship.

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