Peace Frog Posted July 16, 2019 Share Posted July 16, 2019 6 minutes ago, Warfish said: We're all looking forward to see how Darnold develops, and as I said to start, I see no reason Darnold cannot work hard and materially improve him completion percentage in 2019 and beyond. Sam’s completion percentage will materially improve because he is a naturally accurate thrower of the football. A better OC, line and overall talent around him will hasten the improvement but he is not inaccurate now yet will become accurate in the future. One is a numerical measurement based on many factors and the other a concept. Inaccurate guys don’t become accurate by working hard. Sanchez, Hack, Tebow were never becoming accurate no matter how hard they worked. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jet Nut Posted July 16, 2019 Share Posted July 16, 2019 5 hours ago, Warfish said: Then it would seem a reasonable, logical counterpoint would be to cite NFL drop pass stats showing that Darnold's pass-catchers had somewhere near the most-dropped passes in the NFL last year. I would certainly accept that as a valid counter-argument in regards to accuracy discussion. Do you have a source to support any such claim, that Jets WR dropped alot of passes last year compared to the rest of the league? Also, just to be clear, what you posted was pure hyperbole. Fantasy even. We're talking about Pro QB's, not people throwing "15 perfectly delivered balls, all dropped" or "15 ducks, all caught by great WR's". Lets stick with facts, shall we? If drops played a material part in Darnold's 31st ranked completion percentage, then the drop stats should show that out. Nice spin. My whole point was to show why comp percentage is a totally useless way to judge accuracy. But, hey, let's make believe that it's you sticking to facts. Thanks for the heads up. I'm done if you're going to argue for no reason at all. Every word I posted was dead on. And for some reason that's problematic for you. Amazing that anyone would argue that comp. Perc. On its own denotes accuracy. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Peace Frog Posted July 16, 2019 Share Posted July 16, 2019 20 minutes ago, Jet Nut said: Nice spin. My whole point was to show why comp percentage is a totally useless way to judge accuracy. But, hey, let's make believe that it's you sticking to facts. Thanks for the heads up. I'm done if you're going to argue for no reason at all. Every word I posted was dead on. And for some reason that's problematic for you. Amazing that anyone would argue that comp. Perc. On its own denotes accuracy. Drop stats DID prove it out. 19 drops tied for 11th in the league and they were much higher (worse) before Sam hit his stride. Yet he’ll continue to dismiss...you know...facts. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
slats Posted July 16, 2019 Share Posted July 16, 2019 4 hours ago, Warfish said: Not sure I would agree with that universally. Throwing a materially less likely to be completed pass vs. throwing a more likely completed pass is part of a QB's judgement. Fans may hate it, but throwing some bullet into triple coverage 30 yards out with a very low chance of being caught is not, IMO, smarter than throwing to the guy in the flat for 5 yards who might need to fight to get that 6th yard for the first down. It's all about probabilities. No one, anywhere, is talking about throwing a pass that’s not likely to be completed vs. one that is. We’re talking about accurate, catchable passes here. Darnold can fit the ball into small windows; a necessary trait for QBs hoping to reach the next level. Those are championship throws. The scenario you’re talking about might be dumb in the middle of the second quarter, but a critically needed throw with two minutes left in the game. I don’t have a huge problem with my QB making those throws anytime, though, because that’s gonna give him the experience and confidence to make that throw when he has to. And there are times when he will. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BCJet Posted July 17, 2019 Share Posted July 17, 2019 I think what is being missed in this whole accuracy conversation is how infrequently Darnold had a clean pocket to throw from. The fact that he can be accurate outside the pocket, when he has to move laterally, and down the field means more to me then if his % was a bit higher and he was dinking and dunking most of his throws. Its far easier to coach someone to be accurate more often on check downs. Its virtually impossible to teach them to be accurate down the field when the pocket collapses and hes already pretty good at that. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Warfish Posted July 17, 2019 Share Posted July 17, 2019 1 hour ago, Jet Nut said: Nice spin. What spin? You claimed drops was the cause of his low comp. %, I asked for the numbers that prove it. Seems pretty straightforward. 1 hour ago, Jet Nut said: My whole point was to show why comp percentage is a totally useless way to judge accuracy. Except it's not. But to repeat, you're entitled to your opinions. 1 hour ago, Jet Nut said: I'm done.... I wish..... 1 hour ago, Jet Nut said: Amazing that anyone would argue that comp. Perc. On its own denotes accuracy. No one said "on it's own". It's the best and most well-known metric that measures accuracy. Not the only metric. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Warfish Posted July 17, 2019 Share Posted July 17, 2019 37 minutes ago, slats said: We’re talking about accurate, catchable passes here. The Comp % + Drop Stats would be a pretty good metric for that. Clearly that doesn't fit the "Darnold has better than elite level accuracy" narrative some prefer, so now Comp. % os a meaningless, childish stat apparently..... 37 minutes ago, slats said: Darnold can fit the ball into small windows; a necessary trait for QBs hoping to reach the next level. I agree 100%. He can absolutely make those throws. He just doesn't do it often enough (yet). He can make elite throws. He is not elite accurate (yet). 37 minutes ago, slats said: Those are championship throws. The scenario you’re talking about might be dumb in the middle of the second quarter, but a critically needed throw with two minutes left in the game. I don’t have a huge problem with my QB making those throws anytime, though, because that’s gonna give him the experience and confidence to make that throw when he has to. And there are times when he will. Elite QB's have 65% comp. ratio or better. 60% is the Mendoza-line of the NFL. No matter how we spin it, every QB faces the same decisions, and has the same (or similar) issues of drops and saves. That is why comp % is a generally accepted base metric for how accurate a QB is......or was, till now. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Peace Frog Posted July 17, 2019 Share Posted July 17, 2019 Just now, Warfish said: What spin? You claimed drops was the cause of his low comp. %, I asked for the numbers that prove it. Seems pretty straightforward. No one said "on it's own". It's the best and most well-known metric that measures accuracy. Not the only metric. I posted his drops, we had 19 and if just 13 of those were Sam’s then he’s a 61% comp guy and according to you “accurate”. And comp rate is NOT the most well known metric for accuracy, just the one trotted out who don’t understand football. Too bad you’re a big baby and have me on ignore but I’m guessing this is why because you knew your faulty opinion was being crushed. The Jets were tied for 11th in the league in drops. 19 of them. Those are stats. Facts. A true “metric”. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jet Nut Posted July 17, 2019 Share Posted July 17, 2019 17 hours ago, Jet Nut said: Think it's more about where th ball is delivered, the duress it's delivered under and not the childlike reliance on completion percentage which is kind of meaningless to anyone who understands the game. Which means you are screwed 13 hours ago, Jet Nut said: Yes, if you're discussing accuracy. Your view. Darnold throws 15 well delivered passes to a WR. Hits him in his hands, in stride, perfect ball. All 15 are dropped by the WR, comp. % = 0.00, Darnold is the leagues worst, most innacurate passer. 15 ducks, thrown all over the place, not one well delievered ball, WR makes 15 crazy, diving, lunging catches, comp % in this case is 100% and somehow you think hes now more accurate. Easy as it gets to read stats So yes, comp percentages on their own are "meaningless and childish". Simplistic beyond belief and proof that yes some stats on their own are silly. 100% true. 5 hours ago, Warfish said: What spin? You claimed drops was the cause of his low comp. %, I asked for the numbers that prove it. Seems pretty straightforward. Except it's not. But to repeat, you're entitled to your opinions. I wish..... No one said "on it's own". It's the best and most well-known metric that measures accuracy. Not the only metric. Find me a single post where I talked about drops were th cause of Darnolds comp percentage. I'll stand corrected. Here's a hint, it doesn't exist, I never said it. Comp percentage on its own doesn't mean I said dropped passes are an excuse, I never mentioned them at all. I clearly said you have to look at it all, where ball is delivered, the duress it's delivered under. The childlike reliance on completion percentage means exactly what it said. It is kind of meaningless all by itself to anyone who understands the game. You told me my point that and accurate dropped pass is punished while an inaccurate pass, caught in a great play is celebrated if you go by comp percentages only and you're really having a hard time accepting or admitting that it's perfectly true. Not fantasy world ?, as you also claimed You don't even know how to argue sparky. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
slats Posted July 17, 2019 Share Posted July 17, 2019 2 minutes ago, Warfish said: Elite QB's have 65% comp. ratio or better. 60% is the Mendoza-line of the NFL. No matter how we spin it, every QB faces the same decisions, and has the same (or similar) issues of drops and saves. That is why comp % is a generally accepted base metric for how accurate a QB is......or was, till now. Comp% can be very system orientated, or favor the risk-averse QB, and as such I've never been a huge fan of depending on that number. YPA is my preferred stand alone stat, and Darnold's 58% comp and 6.9 ypa for the youngest rookie QB to start an NFL season in 50 years seems pretty reasonable to me. My biggest concern about Sam was the turnovers, particularly the fumbles, and he wound up fumbling less than any other rookie last year. Probably less than the majority of starting QBs, but I don't feel like looking it up. Sam has a jump to make, no doubt about it, but I feel very good about how he wrapped up last year. I want my QB to be able to make dangerous throws, and take those chances. That's gonna result in some incompletions and interceptions, but I'm willing to accept that if he's got a high TD% and ypa to go with it. I prefer my QB be more Brett Favre than Alex Smith. You seem to prefer the safer guys. I don't think those guys win championships. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Peace Frog Posted July 17, 2019 Share Posted July 17, 2019 47 minutes ago, Warfish said: That is why comp % is a generally accepted base metric for how accurate a QB is Only by people who don't understand football. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jet Nut Posted July 17, 2019 Share Posted July 17, 2019 6 hours ago, Warfish said: No matter how we spin it, every QB faces the same decisions, and has the same (or similar) issues of drops and saves. That is why comp % is a generally accepted base metric for how accurate a QB is......or was, till now. What were you smoking or drinking when you wrote this? Wait I thought you just said comp % on its own isn't what you said. Now it's generally accepted. Whats it tomorrow? LOL Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Warfish Posted July 17, 2019 Share Posted July 17, 2019 12 hours ago, slats said: Comp% can be very system orientated, or favor the risk-averse QB, and as such I've never been a huge fan of depending on that number. YPA is my preferred stand alone stat I agree, there is value in that stat, although I wouldn't use it as a judge of accuracy (which is what we've been talking about). 12 hours ago, slats said: and Darnold's 58% comp and 6.9 ypa for the youngest rookie QB to start an NFL season in 50 years seems pretty reasonable to me. I don't think anyone has said otherwise. The question on the table I've been debating was "Does Darnold posses better-than-elite accuracy". 12 hours ago, slats said: My biggest concern about Sam was the turnovers, particularly the fumbles, and he wound up fumbling less than any other rookie last year. Probably less than the majority of starting QBs, but I don't feel like looking it up. +1, that was also my largest concern with him as well. I feel he did pretty well on that for a rookie. The INT numbers should/need to decrease in year 2, but I wasn't unhappy with his performance in 2018 on that point. 12 hours ago, slats said: Sam has a jump to make, no doubt about it, but I feel very good about how he wrapped up last year. Agreed. 12 hours ago, slats said: I want my QB to be able to make dangerous throws, and take those chances. That's gonna result in some incompletions and interceptions, but I'm willing to accept that if he's got a high TD% and ypa to go with it. I prefer my QB be more Brett Favre than Alex Smith. You seem to prefer the safer guys. I don't think those guys win championships. Yes and No. I want our QB to make the right choice in each situation for the situation. I do not want a Pennington, nor do I want a Favre per se. There is a time to be risk-averse and a time to gunsling. These situations tend to balance themselves out for NFL QB's over the course of a 16 game season, which is why I do believe completion % is a good metric for overall accuracy (especially when combined with drop stats, a good point made earlier). Defending a sub-60% rate with "well, he takes risks and I like that" is not an argument I'd support as clearly the risks being taken are not succeeding often enough. With that said, as you and I (I believe) agree, Darnold has much room for improvement in his 2nd year and it will be VERY exciting to see him play in 2019 and see what steps up he's taken. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Warfish Posted July 17, 2019 Share Posted July 17, 2019 13 hours ago, Jet Nut said: You don't even know how to argue sparky. If you say so. How about I do us both a favor then: Quote You've chosen to ignore content by Jet Nut. Options Goodbye Nut. Dealing with your mostly incoherent and inconsistent yet always aggressive and angry ranting and raving is just too tiring for me these days. While trolling you if occasionally fun, it's not that fun. Enjoy the season. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jet Nut Posted July 17, 2019 Share Posted July 17, 2019 10 minutes ago, Warfish said: If you say so. How about I do us both a favor then: Goodbye Nut. Dealing with your mostly incoherent and inconsistent yet always aggressive and angry ranting and raving is just too tiring for me these days. While trolling you if occasionally fun, it's not that fun. Enjoy the season. So the littl baby with the tough guy name of WARfish starts a f'n multipost argument with me over a simple to understand, for anyone who can process ideas, that there is a lot more than completion percentages to judge accuracy. Spins into all different angles so that this baby can continue to argue without addressing a simplistic point that no one else is struggling with. I make the statement, he argues I'm wrong and then accuses others of trolling him. A true baby on the intervened, on a public forum, who usually posts like this. I'm incoherent, I'm inconsistent, raving, and "angrily ranting". I'm right and a troll. LOL How do you fix it? You run away. Don't let the door kick you on the way out. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Peace Frog Posted July 17, 2019 Share Posted July 17, 2019 29 minutes ago, Warfish said: If you say so. How about I do us both a favor then: Goodbye Nut. Dealing with your mostly incoherent and inconsistent yet always aggressive and angry ranting and raving is just too tiring for me these days. While trolling you if occasionally fun, it's not that fun. Enjoy the season. Can’t rationally defend your nonsense so you run away. On the internet no less. Lol. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Warfish Posted July 17, 2019 Share Posted July 17, 2019 And JN is already lookin' better! Quote You've chosen to ignore content by Jet Nut. Options You've chosen to ignore content by Peace Frog. Options Let me guess, lots of angry whining and E-manhood-chest-puffery because I won't waste my time engaging with a troll and a nutcase anymore. Guys, let me fill you in on a little something...I don't judge my life based on how much time I waste with you two chuckleheads on a daily basis. You've both called me dumb, fine. Me ignoring your posts should make you both happy, as it's very much going to make me happy. It's a win/win really. P.S. Completion percentage is still a good metric for QB accuracy. Bye! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jet Nut Posted July 17, 2019 Share Posted July 17, 2019 17 minutes ago, Warfish said: And JN is already lookin' better! Let me guess, lots of angry whining and E-manhood-chest-puffery because I won't waste my time engaging with a troll and a nutcase anymore. Guys, let me fill you in on a little something...I don't judge my life based on how much time I waste with you two chuckleheads on a daily basis. You've both called me dumb, fine. Me ignoring your posts should make you both happy, as it's very much going to make me happy. It's a win/win really. P.S. Completion percentage is still a good metric for QB accuracy. Bye! Shop this it's what @warweenie does. 1. Make a statement, post it 2. Post gets a response 3. Turns into @warwhiner and complains that you responded on a public, open forum that you responded. 4. Run away and out you in ignore for no apparent reason. 5. Guess what is written by someone he placed on ignore. Being his name up. 6. Makes believe he can't just click the button to read my post. 7. Makes false accusations like he did this because he has been insulted. 8. Rinse, repeat by reposting the same simplistic, wrong, line about comp percentage being an indicator of accuracy. Maybe we all get lucky and @warsensitive puts everyone in ignore. Bye Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
genot Posted July 17, 2019 Share Posted July 17, 2019 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Peace Frog Posted July 17, 2019 Share Posted July 17, 2019 46 minutes ago, Warfish said: Guys, let me fill you in on a little something...I don't judge my life based on how much time I waste with you two chuckleheads on a daily basis. Again with the nonsensical hyperbole. Oooooohhh..."let me fill you in on a little something..." lol. So ethereal, so profound. Who bases their life on ANYTHING they discuss on the internet? Just more moronic nonsense. But yeah, thanks for filling us in. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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